- Thread starter Jigstick
- Start date
Good catch. I forgot (because I don't have much interest in HK pistols) that Wright Armory can do what few (or none) others can with them, do it well, and that includes optics.
My sample size may be small. But it’s all irrelevant. Because it happened to my particular glock. So out of the Glocks I own 30% of em had malfunctions. Not one of my 5 HKs has ever malfunctioned.
I'd be worrying more about practicing remedial and immediate action for jams, over hedging my bets on a few jams here and there vs none. Statistics will tell us your HK is going to jam eventually... either way you might need to be ready to unjam it.
What is your definition of obsolete? What does a striker gun do that DA/SA doesn't? Regardless of how its built, a quality gun is a quality gun. Basing my opinion on what "regular people" buy is asinine.
Both my HD gun and my comp gun are both DA/SA. The ONLY reason I chose my carry gun is for its size and feel, not because its striker fired.
It's the typical low IQ "if it's good for the .mil then it's the best"
I've come to expect seeing at least one person pulling the trigger more than once on a dead round or on a pistol at slide lock at you know where.
there's also dovetail mounting plates that exist for the USPs if you don't want to slide mill them. they work just fine
Are there any high round count tests with mounts like that? I get a little worried with such a small interface that a well used gun, both in round count and "general abuse" would not fair well with one of those. Genuinely curious though.
MIL/LEO/CCW = people expecting to get into a gunfight. From the lowest rural cop to the top units in the military who can source and use WHATEVER they want, guys are running glocks. This is telling. Even the Navy special ops community who has a long history with the P226/P228 after they blew up a bunch of M9's in the 90's, has gone to the glock. This is telling.
The P30 has a trash trigger. Even worse than the V1 is the LEM abortions.
The CZ have a trash trigger without CGW or similar treatment. No different then a 1911.
Beretta Px4 is a hunk of shit with its rotating barrel. They are incredibly unreliable. I actually have a cougar which is a clone of one someone gave me. Its nothing but a newer 8000 series which were known as turds in their time.
Yes. It was obsolete when it came out in the 90's. Its an engineering marvel from one perspective and a complete disappointment.
The trigger is your interface with the gun. Kind of important wouldn't you think?
Its not incremental, its revolutionary. Same way the rifle made the musket obsolete.
How many people here shoot PRS or benchrest with a 8 lb gritty trigger? Starting to pick up what I'm putting down?
You can also get adapters for them. I have an old Blast 2 unit which is direct mount. GG&G and a few others made rails so you can mount something via pic or glock standard.
The H&K triggers on the USP line, the P30 line and the HK45 line are perfectly usable and very reliable, if you don't care about it being a heavy trigger pull, a bit long and perhaps a bit gritty. Obviously not your preference as you clearly state, but you seem to go a bit overboard bashing everything that's not what you think is the ultimate thing.
We understand you love Glocks and think they are the best thing ever on the planet and nobody is going to try to change your mind.
Just do be aware some stupid departments have had stupid heavy triggers put on glocks at different times so just because it's a glock doesn't mean the trigger is the ultimate of perfection.
Glock didn't get the last big army pistol contract that went to Sig
I'd argue that the M17 / M18 trigger is less nice and crisp than a H&K VP9
I'd also argue that the factory VP9 trigger is much crisper and better than the factory glock triggers.
But with most military and police contracts price plays an outsized role in the purchasing decision.
In LE there is a very good chance the large amount of use of Glocks is actually down to contract price and everybody seems to be using them, so let's copy them.
Are you saying a striker fire Glock has a better trigger than a CZ?
Telling that the lowest common denominator doesn't spend hardly any time training.
Again, butter hands need not apply.
You should let Ernest Langdon know that
No the triggers suck. They are among the worst of ALL pistols. Yes they are reliable but if they are hard to shoot well, who cares.
Where did I say glock is the best? I own half a dozen more Vp9's than glocks if you really want to know. The NY connector sucks yea, but no one is forced to use that.
Glocks are a good combination of cheap, easy to operate, stupid reliable and easy to repair. They are extremely easy to train new shooters (Think FID) and at the same time can be used at the highest levels of pistol shooting on a 2 way range. They have been the gold standard for 30+ years, because they are a great utilitarian tool for almost all users. To say they aren't is just plain ignorance. Its quite astonishing that they are used from the greenest greenie to the tip of the spear and in between.
The Big Army pistol contract has nothing to do with any of these. Sig Won the contract before the RFP even came out. What is telling is, Its a striker fired pistol.
Contract price of pistols has little to do with LE. All the big agencies do their own testing or use the FBI's testing, which the glock almost always comes out on top. Certain manufactures will give sweetheart deals like S&W, Sig, Beretta, ect to entice departments away from glocks by basically giving them away so they can say "XXXX agency uses our shitty gun. And in almost every example after some time they switch back or to glocks. You can google agencies that switched from M&P to glock because the list is too long to type.
The only other reason they buy shitty guns is poor rural PD's who make the officers buy their own guns. In alot of them you would see Springfield XD which is a collosal piece of shit but used to be dirt cheap. So some would carry them because when you are making $13/hr as a cop, $200 more is affordably to most.
Today all most all the modern pistols are similar priced, with HK being on the higher end.
CAG, HRT, BORTAC, Devgru, 24th STS, RRC, ect ect are lowest common denominators?
The fact that you can take someone with no training and in a few hours teach them how to be safe and qual with a glock is not a bad thing. It just shows you how well designed the platform is to be the top choice for conscripts to elite special operators.
Ernest langdon is not a soldier, a cop and his military experience is about 30 years old.. He shoots gamer guns and infact, cant even sell a LTT pistol without issues. More of a Beretta issue than anything, but it has his name on it. Wilson makes a much nicer gun for the money, plus it will actually run.
They will never be obsolete, nor will a old Python, pre-ban AK or a HKp7 and a million other examples of quality that ages well.
What cop makes $13hr?
No, the rank and file everyone else in the military and police are
It actually just shows how fucking easy the standard LE and military pistol quals are. The OPOTA pistol qual is so fucking easy I can pass it with a revolver with time to spare.
Right. I'm sure you're right.............
You're a walking living demonstration of the appeal to authority logical fallacy
none that anyone here would think has enough credibility because it isn't from HK themselves or some government entity, but several of HK's shooting team folks have used setups like that for a considerable round count, I think one of them still uses a USP with that style of mount IIRC
Based on some of the interviews with seals and the like, not sure I’d say they are all “gun people” or even pro American values
Working for baskin robbins also doesn’t make someone a expert in ice cream making
Look man you and me agree on most things. But you are being unreasonable in an attempt to "win" the argument.
If the "rank and file" along with the tip of the spear choose the same weapon, then how is that a bad thing? Its a proof of the platform.
You are going down another rabbit hole about quals and missing the point. The point is, handguns like the glock are MUCH easier to train someone to a basic level. When you are training foreign nations, guerrillas,ect the platform matters. Half the people can't read/write and are functionally retarded. Try the same thing with an M9 or a P226 and you will have a might higher learning curve
Its not an appeal to authority, its an appeal to competency and experience. Certain entities have the budget, knowledge and drive to test gear to the breaking point. Some of us know who they are, and its wise to heed their advice. No one here can afford or has access to the facilities to do what these people can do.
No elite unit or entity that is going into combat is using a hammer fired gun today. This is a hint. The same people you are putting on a pedestal (Pro Shooters) are training these units and helping to refine their programs.
So unless you can show a testing protocol and results on the level that these entities conduct showing how a hammer fired gun is superior or even at the same level, there is nothing more to say here.
MIlitary and police pistol selection has so little to do with actual performance that it's almost comical.
It's .gov contracting. That's all I'll say about that.
And I carry and compete with Glocks......
Some of the “logic” in here is pretty appalling, lol. I’m not going to rehash it all, but calling a firearm with a hammer “obsolete” is all kinds of ridiculous. PLENTY of hammer-fired guns get sold each year, or else they wouldn’t be making them. Hell, FN went through the trouble of redesigning the venerable HP recently, and Beretta/LTT can’t hardly keep the popular models in stock, their supposed issues aside. The comment about PX4 reliability made me LOL, as did your reference to M9 issues seeing as how those problems have LONG since been remedied… But do carry on because as we all know, when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to keep digging! 
This is an broad brush statement and only applies to certain situations. Big political contracts like the MHS mean little, but agency testing that is FOUO, Selections from SMU's as well as tier 1 federal teams is legit. Observations and experiences from the top firearm trainers who have seen thousands of shooters and guns rotate through their classes over the years also have a good grasp of what works and what is left wanting.
Lets just say I probally understand the FAR/DFAR and a few other procurement regs better than just about anyone here. I get paid to source, select and manage these contracts.
Nuance matters. Its already been addressed but you are too stubborn or arrogant to listen.
You still aren't addressing any points other than making broad ignorant statements like "rank and file" and "Military and police pistol selection has so little to do with actual performance".......
This is why you can't have intelligent debate on the internet.
Plenty of Muzzle loaders and Horse's get sold every year, but you don't see Cops or Military riding into battle on horseback with a .54 cal Hawkins.Some of the “logic” in here is pretty appalling, lol. I’m not going to rehash it all, but calling a firearm with a hammer “obsolete” is all kinds of ridiculous. PLENTY of hammer-fired guns get sold each year, or else they wouldn’t be making them. Hell, FN went through the trouble of redesigning the venerable HP recently, and Beretta/LTT can’t hardly keep the popular models in stock, their supposed issues aside. The comment about PX4 reliability made me LOL, as did your reference to M9 issues seeing as how those problems have LONG since been remedied… But do carry on because as we all know, when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to keep digging!
The HP has already been discussed. Its a relic like the 1911 and needs about $2K dumped into them to even get close to where it should be.
Beretta's manufacturing in the last 10 years has gone to shit. They can't produce the high quality at high volumes they used to. Their pistol designs other than the M9, which is a 50 year old design, suck.
The PX4 is a known piece of shit and just about every agency that has adopted it , has reverted to glocks. MD State police being one of the biggest that Beretta used to brag about. I have friends who are troopers and they all fucking hated that hunk of shit. They are happy to get issued glocks like most sane agencies. Its nothing but an updated Beretta 8000, which was also a huge flop. You children should really learn some firearm history before spouting bullshit to people who forgot more about this subject then you will probably ever know.
The reference to the m9 issues was related to the SEALS breaking slides in the 80s, and the point was how they shifted to the Sig and had been heavily invested for decades in them..........and still shitcanned them for the glock. If you are going to try and pick out parts of my post, at least get it right.
LOL, you can’t even pick up on the core point of my post, lol. I’m done here, my sides hurt too much from the laughter as you keep digging in, lol.
bruh those were .40cal, you’d go back to Glocks for 9mm too.
Beretta doesn't make a 9mm PX4? If it was just a caliber swap why not keep same platform when you already have gear, leather, mags ect for them?
There's literally horse cops in major cities, Border patrol, Texas Rangers, etc... lol
But besides that, I don't think ANYONE is saying that Glocks aren't simple designs, that are easily produced and require less knowledge to do maintenance on over something like a CZ SP01 or Beretta, BUT thats not the only metric nor is it the most profound....UNLESS you're talking about teaching thousands of random people about them. Simply teaching someone to use a pistol is not that different between a Glock and CZ, but its a high volume factory produced way of teaching and arming. So yes, the most economical approach is to use the simplest design, that costs less to buy and maintain, which means a plastic gun is usually the better option. This is like the difference between factory farmed beef and small farm regenerative beef. One is not making the other obsolete, but they are using different equipment and processes to do different things. One is solely based on economical and utilitarian volume production, and the other is the opposite.
But the PROBLEM is using this word "OBSOLETE" which I think you're using wayyyyy too liberally. I'll even say I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but this bullshit about being obsolete is just not true...unless your definition of obsolete is wildly different than mine.
You used the example: "why we have rifles instead of muskets". To imply the difference between a Glock and a CZ is as big as a musket to a modern rifle is absurd.
You used the trigger example. To imply that proper pistol trigger control is the same as PRS Rifle shooting is absurd. Not to mention, who the hell is running a stock trigger on a PRS rifle? no one. Who gets into shooting seriously and keeps a factory pistol trigger? I do....on my CZ Shadow, but not on my Glock...or SW MP....or SIG. Maybe if Glock produced a better trigger from the factory, there wouldn't be so many aftermarket triggers for Glock.
Just because the vanilla SEALs changed pistol platforms DOES NOT mean they sucked. Every unit changes weapons systems eventually. Maintenance and replacement costs get high, people want change, they have the money. Same reason we went from DCU's to ACU's... contract money honey.
My platoon did the SCAR (16/17) and EGLM testing for JSOC/USASOC in 09-10. Pretty sure everyone was happy to move to that platform, yet we ended up with new DD uppers to go on our loose and old ass M4A1 lowers. To think budget isn't weighed heavily is crazy....
He talks and acts as if he was the only one in the world with the knowledge that he says he has.
He is wrong.
Appeal to authority ad infinitum
I would not put money on that
Yet you continue to ignore them
It's a waste of time when you can't consider the possibility that you might be wrong about what obsolete means and that you might be wrong when you equate "popular" with "the best".
By obsolete I only meant the modern push towards RDS optics on pistols. There is definitely a trend now going that direction. And the USPs seem “trickier” to capitalize on that trend. Is a RDS “needed” ? Certainly not.
I'm not sure how this thread is supposed to achieve anything if we don't even have a definition of obsolescence to go off.
Obsolescence doesnt mean that something is useless or can't function. I mean , Russia is apparently fielding Mosins over in Ukraine currently.
Obsolescence doesnt mean that something is useless or can't function. I mean , Russia is apparently fielding Mosins over in Ukraine currently.
If that's the definition that you want to use, then I would say no. Are there cheaper options that are optics-ready? Yes, including one from HK.
Is the USP unable to accommodate reflex sights? No, send it and $450 to Wright Armory and it comes back ready to go.
Is an RDS needed? That entirely depends on two things: your skill shooting with an RDS-equipped pistol and your ability to focus on the front sight. I haven't had the ability to focus on the front sight of a pistol for about 15 years. I am very skilled at using an RDS on a pistol. So for me they are an absolute must have on any semi auto handgun.
That can be remedied easily, although I do see the issue specifically with the USP series, which creates a more expensive choice.
You can get a CZ P07 or P09 for $550. Send it to primary machine with $125 and 3-4 weeks later you have a RDS direct mount ready to go. There's more and more shops offering milling and RDS plate options, as its becoming more popular. I might say the USP line is maybe one of the few thats an oddball, as HK has usually always been lol
According to the dictionary:
Definition of obsolete
1a: no longer in use or no longer useful: an obsolete word
b: of a kind or style no longer current : OLD-FASHIONED an obsolete technology; farming methods that are now obsolete
This would be what I had in mind.... or maybe something closer to the gun world from both a competitive and defensive viewpoint, would be:
"The point where a firearm design, its use, or its ability to function as intended is out performed by a SIMILAR style firearm so far that it renders the use of the former at a severe disadvantage over the latter to the point where fielding the former is no longer realistic."
IMO, something like a CZ SP01/P09/S2 isn't even close to obsolete, and in fact are gaining popularity in some circles. The fact that police are using Glocks tells me nothing.
@Jigstick , HK hates you!!!! Thus, you should just sell your HK's (all of them... P2000, P30, VP9/40, USPs, P9s, HK4 and especially that wacky ass P7M8 to me - I'll give you 10 bucks each, maybe 15 for the P7M8. Worthless junk - I'm volunteering to help you out since HK hates you and the customer service ESPECIALLY hates you for mentioning RDS on a USP. Save yourself the agony...sell.
This thread is way to long. Let me try.
If you *need* a red dot to hit your target (for any reason: nods, old eyes, can't figure out a fronsight), then out of the box they are obsolete. If you can use irons to hit targets, then no they can still do that.
Optimality is a personal question. GL;HF
If you *need* a red dot to hit your target (for any reason: nods, old eyes, can't figure out a fronsight), then out of the box they are obsolete. If you can use irons to hit targets, then no they can still do that.
Optimality is a personal question. GL;HF
That USP Expert at the top of this page is legit.
Has anyone else used Wright Armory?
Has anyone else used Wright Armory?
Fella I know has a slide out right now.
my only complaint is the flash light rail. other than that, great pistols.
Endless source of frustration because apparently my frames are out of spec and the GG&G rail adapters don’t fit well.
does streamlight make a USP specific light? thought i had one in the past, long ago during my USP days.
Yes, a no lumen antiquated old thing.
It's 2023. 3d print something.
Let me get right on 3D printing a light housing!
I‘m a little late to the party here but here’s my 2 cents based on experience:
There is nothing wrong with either the Glock or LEM trigger. Remember, anything mechanical is a compromise. I have personally shot tens of thousands of rounds through both of them (Glock 19‘s, 17’s, 22’s, 23’s and 21’s AND HK USP’s, P30’s and HK45C’s all with LEM) and have observed over a million rounds shot through both. Mechanically, the HK’s ARE better pistols and tend to be more accurate. By that I mean HK’s are more durable and reliable, as Glocks do have some design flaws (prone to limp wristing and most models rely on the next cartridge or follower to eject the fired cartridge case during its cycle of operation). For the price, Glocks are good tools and are easier to repair than HK with less tools needed.
Only flaw I see with the HK hammer pistols are the high bore axis when compared to Glocks, but that’s just me AND the price. Price IS a thing with regard to procurement in LE and the military, including SMU’s and IS a reason Glocks are a popular pistol.
Either trigger with smooth out with use (dry practice and live fire) and are fine for their intended purpose, just put the work and the reps in them and they will both serve you well.
