Fieldcraft Are we too dependant on electronics?????

[kraigWY]

This is getting silly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A typical infantry company of roughly 150 soldiers requires more than 6,600 batteries, weighing more than 1,400 pounds, for 72 hours of operation. All that weight slows down soldiers on foot, tethers them to constant resupply, and contributes to a rash of muscular and skeletal injuries caused by excessively heavy packs.</div></div>

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...tm_medium=email

Maybe that works in the desert, or in Afghan, but it wont cut it in the jungle or worse, the arctic.

We are assuming that we wont ever have to fight anywhere but the middle east, because of that, we are screwing ourselves.

What happens if we have to fight somewhere where troops will have to spend 30-45 days in the field like Vietnam.

Thats over 9 lbs per soldier just in batteries. That's about 300 rounds of 5.56 ammo.

What happens when batteries fail, (don't think that happens take a two week cross country ski trip above the acrtic circle).

Solar panels?????? Yeah that will work in the jungles or the arctic where in the winter you may only get a couple hours of sunshine, then the sun is at too much of an angle to do you any goot.

Don't they teach soldiers how to use a map and compass anymore. (They don't require batteries and don't weigh nothing).

How about ranging, don't they teach ranging with the front sight, or using a map any more.

Maybe I'm too old fashion, but seems to me getting rid of those electronic gismos and the batteries to support them means more ammo and more water which comes in pretty handy every now and then for the infantryman.

We are too dependant on being resupplied at our becon call, trust me, that doesn't always happen. We don't always get the choice of fighting weather.

So much for being a global army.

So that's my Saturday afternoon rant.

 

[Layton]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What happens if we have to fight somewhere where troops will have to spend 30-45 days in the field like Vietnam.

</div></div>

I don't see that happening anytime soon. But, I'm not at all qualified to offer an informed opinion. Given current technologies, transport, etc. do you think that's really a possibility? And if so under what scenario? Honest questions here.

L

 

[Enough Said]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

Good points.

Amateurs talk tactics...

Professionals talk logistics.

 

[ajwcotton]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

My usual combat load over here in A-stan is over 100 lbs. I've been slowly getting rid of things that only serve one purpose, but most of things that weigh the most are not going anywhere. Armor, Ammo and Water. As far as batteries go there is no getting around carrying 5590's for the radios. AA's are light and easy to carry for GPS and NV and generally last a long time.
I really do pitty the RTO's though

 

[threetrees]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

it's not only batteries.

i remember a military competition in the austrian alps, including troops from america, europe, etc.

the objective: start here, go to that point on the map. this will include map reading, cross country hikes, alpine climbing (up and down) ... but nothing out of the ordinary. the teams had to arrive at the goal within a specific time frame and then do some additional tests.

we had to admit, in the beginning of the hike, the americans (don't remember whether army, navy, ...) were leading. after 2 hours, people noticed climbing gear on a narrow path that most teams seemed to follow. turned out that some of the american teams started to 'drop/lose' material that was unlikely to be necessary - like large bolts, friends, tiblocs, slings of various types, etc.

our 'Jagdkommando' (austrian team) was amazed ... they saw stuff on the ground that was for sure high quality. however, alot of it was applicable for few instances only. and ... alot of it was rather robust/heavy. their own equipment mainly consisted carabiners and cords - because alot of climbing gear can be replaced with the correct knot:
- belay/secure: munter hitch
- tibloc-> prusik
- some bolts with special thick knots as used in gritstone ...

it's about the same within the mountain rescue. the 'man equipment' is only some carabiners, cord, plus one or two special pieces. the rest is knowledge, experience and improvising.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see that happening anytime soon. But, I'm not at all qualified to offer an informed opinion. Given current technologies, transport, etc. do you think that's really a possibility? And if so under what scenario? Honest questions here.</div></div>

Well right off hand I can think of Africa. Don't we have troops running around the jungles of Africa now??

I'm sure during Vietnam we never saw the need to train for fighting in Iraq.

Also we need to think of the Electromagnic Pulse. (or what ever its called. With Korea and soon Iran having nukes, what will that do to the electronics.

I'm not saying its gonna happen, I'm saying it could. Many said we wouldn't be involved in WWI either, so when we declaired war on Germany we had a total of 600,000 Springfields and 160,000 Krags, that's for 2,084,000 troops we sent to France.

Now I like "STUFF" as much as the next guy. When I go to the range I have all kinds of crap in my truck. But when I hunt, I only have my Featherwight Model 70, pocket knife, map and compass. Electronics and other crap stay at camp or in the truck.

 

[Layton]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

Fair enough. I don't carry much in the field either. I'm was just wondering how long we should expect a soldier to have to go before resupply these days in a given scenario with available means.

L

 

[threetrees]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

hrm. wasn't there some statistic that the 'usual' soldier these days is at most (on average) 3 days away from any base/resupply?

 

[TheNewRoman]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

I see your point, because electronic do add a lot of wait but always make it easier to work. The the problem is you get dependent on using this stuff, so when it does fail and it will your life gets harder very fast.
But it's a trade of, more weight means more capability most of the time and less weight means less. But in turn less weight means movement is easier and thus you gain mobility.
Well hiking I learned 2 things light weight set up of about 40 pounds I can cover 30+ miles in a day. 80 pounds on the other hand I can cover about 7 miles before my legs give out and need rest, but it's a trade off I can gain a lot of mobility with less weight but in turn I give up capability.
Remember it's a game of mobility vs firepower

 

[taliv]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

no, i think you're looking at this all wrong, like someone complaining that a formula1 car won't go as long between maintenance as their honda civic.

or someone complaining that their finely tuned competition rig isn't as durable as a stock rig.

of course everything has advantages and disadvantages, pros and cons

it's wrongheaded to say "oh here's a tool that gives our soldiers an edge in combat, but it requires more logistics so let's get rid of it so they can sit in the jungle for 30 days".

instead say "how can we improve our logistics so that our soldiers can have the tools that give them the edge?"

"how can we improve our equipment so that it will work in the arctic?"

and you are talking about a COMPANY there, not 1 guy who has to be self sufficient.

edit: i mean, it's our logistics that set us apart already. the article you posted is proof of that

 

[Wanderlust]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

I think those numbers are exaggerated. For 72 hours I carry, about:

3 MBITR batts
8 AA
2 AAA
4 CR123A
1 ACP

Maybe 6 pounds or so. That is enough for the MBITR, ACP, surefire, headset, laser range finder, NVGs, headlamp, etc. etc.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

hell, lets just put all 11Bs on quads and call them light Calvary or heavy Infantry, no need for true Infantry anymore anyway. Then they can carry all kinds of shit and be highly mobile.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's wrongheaded to say "oh here's a tool that gives our soldiers an edge in combat, but it requires more logistics so let's get rid of it so they can sit in the jungle for 30 days".</div></div>

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I think is we should go back and teach our soldiers to soldier without the gadgets so IF the time comes, they can read a map, travel without a GPS, range without a Laser Range finder, etc etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">instead say "how can we improve our logistics so that our soldiers can have the tools that give them the edge?"

"how can we improve our equipment so that it will work in the arctic?"</div></div>

As to arctic/extreme cold weather coditions, again go back to the map. Pre-plan re=supply so when the radio batteries crater they still can be resupplied. Go back to some sort of gen.activated radio such as the PRC 109. (That is the only radio we could always keep going no matter what the conditions), The 77s & 74s always seemed to have frozen batteries.

Teach infantry to move without vehicles. There may come a time....

Sure keep the GPS's, Laser Range Finders, hand held computers w/ built in balistic calculors. Use them, but prepare for the possiblility that in combat Shit Happens.

How many E-nothings can complete a compass course, or call for and direct artillery without a GPS.

 

[taliv]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

ok, fair enough.

seems like "teaching them to soldier without gadgets if the time comes" is a different conversation from where you started out with the implied problem of 6600 batteries weighing 1400 pounds

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

In 05 in a stan we spent 30+ days in the field. That battery estimate is grossly exaggerated. Troops can stay in the field just as long if not longer nowadays due to technological advances. I obviously agree that a need for the fundamental basics will always be needed but to say that they are not taught things like land nav and range estimation because we have GPS is false.

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's wrongheaded to say "oh here's a tool that gives our soldiers an edge in combat, but it requires more logistics so let's get rid of it so they can sit in the jungle for 30 days".</div></div>

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I think is we should go back and teach our soldiers to soldier without the gadgets so IF the time comes, they can read a map, travel without a GPS, range without a Laser Range finder, etc etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">instead say "how can we improve our logistics so that our soldiers can have the tools that give them the edge?"

"how can we improve our equipment so that it will work in the arctic?"</div></div>

As to arctic/extreme cold weather coditions, again go back to the map. Pre-plan re=supply so when the radio batteries crater they still can be resupplied. Go back to some sort of gen.activated radio such as the PRC 109. (That is the only radio we could always keep going no matter what the conditions), The 77s & 74s always seemed to have frozen batteries.

Teach infantry to move without vehicles. There may come a time....

Sure keep the GPS's, Laser Range Finders, hand held computers w/ built in balistic calculors. Use them, but prepare for the possiblility that in combat Shit Happens.

How many E-nothings can complete a compass course, or call for and direct artillery without a GPS.



</div></div>

Teach the troops how to move without vehicles? C'mon man. Are you serious? Do you really think a platoon of Marines cannot move without vehicles? You are clueless to what the military is like nowadays. How do you think we fought in the Korengal Valley? Or the Tora Bora mountains? Believe me, enough "E-nothings" can call for fire. I am sure you were super awesome in '78 and todays military is nothing compared to how awesome you were in '78 but I think those boys can handle themselves quite well.

 

[chad cochran]

Re: Are we too dependant on electronics?????

I have a couple of tours in Iraq and have seen this both ways. Yes, we are dependent on technology but we have to be precise in current air/land engaugements and we have to be fast with the data. The tools we have require a lot of batterys and this is a problem. I know the army has an initiative to get devices on one or few types of batteries but I will retire before that ever sees the light of day. One problem I noticed was "go fast gear" Soldiers would purchase before arriving in country. This stuff really weighs the new guy out until he learns what is critical. I would like to see us loose weight but not sure that is achievable in modern warfare. Just my opinions.