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Rifle Scopes At what point am I wasting money?

Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Well I have to say I have never owned a USO. For me the loopy mk4 was a painfull purchase. I have severl loopy's the MK4,a Varix III, a VXIII and a couple of older varix II's. I also own a couple of Nikons and I have to say that while I like the adjustments on the Loopies better I feel that the glass on the Nilons is clearer and I get less eye strain when using them.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sw99,

Sorry if Im sounding like an ass, but Ive heard to many local gun shop gurus lately saying that thier BSAs, Trashcos, Barskas, etc, are "just as good a those expensive Leupolds and such". IT drives me fucking crazy!!

Have a good one.</div></div>

No worries. With the way this thread was going, I just wanted to post up on my personal observations. I like my $600 Leupy and I like my freebee BSA.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Wow! A lot of great comments and opinions on this subject.
I look at my self, in all honesty a trusty Super sniper would do every thing I need a scope to do. I am saving to get a USO- SN3 because of the features they offer, durability and for the outstanding clarity I hear so much about. I think it would help improve some areas of my shooting and I just want to try one.
So I would say go for the USO. You wont be left with that question in your mind, should I have spent the extra money and got what I really wanted !.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Leupold makes some good products. They have been slacking off on quality lately (I think mainly because they are simply making too many) they are having to cut back on quality checks to get enough out the door to meet demand. But if you get one of these scopes Leupold will treat you like gold and have you 100% taken care of and happy as quickly as possible.

I'm also becoming a big fan of Nightforce too. I think USO makes some great stuff but I don't really think they are that cost effective. I can get the NightForce that I want for about 1600 bucks. The only feature that I don't get on that scope is FFP. If I was to get the same scope from USO and get FFP it would cost an extra grand. Getting the same scope is quite a bit more expensive too!!!

I say get a Leupy or NF and spend the money you saved on ammo or reloading supplies. You'll be a better shooter for the money spent!
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sw99,

Sorry if Im sounding like an ass, but Ive heard to many local gun shop gurus lately saying that thier BSAs, Trashcos, Barskas, etc, are "just as good a those expensive Leupolds and such". IT drives me fucking crazy!! Have a good one.</div></div>

With both rifles and scopes, they're only a bad choice if they don't do the job you want them to do, whether that's plinking rabbits in the back yard, competing in national benchrest matches, or saving hostages as a professional sniper.

I'm not embarrased that I own a $20 (new price) 4x32 Leapers scope. I also have an AN/PVS-12 which cost 250 times what Leapers scope cost and quite a few other scopes (mostly Leupold) in between. They're used for different tasks as appropriate. I'm confident that each is a "best" choice for the applications they were bought for. If I didn't think that I'd have chosen something else. The Leapers was selected because it's exceptionally compact. It's not as high of optical or mechanical quality, but no scope I found made by Leupold or other top manufacturers would have done the job as well.




 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

The Sightron SIII 6-24x50 is a very good scope. They are on sale at Graf's for under $500 and would most likely suit your needs for quite some time.

Another scope that doesn't get much press is the weaver grand slam. I saw one at the range and was surprised by the glass and adjustments. It was during daylight so I can't say how it is in low light situations. It isn't a tactical scope, but the 6-20 model can be had for $279-$350.

I have a Nightforce NXS w/ npr2 reticle and it is an awesome scope.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I just posted asking about tactical scopes from Mueller optics. The only response I got was "how much does it cost". I currently own two leupolds, a BSA and a weaver. I have the BSA on my 17hmr it is sub MOA on a calm day. I know no one wants to hear it but if someone said "bet you can't hit that dime at 100yds" and there was no wind my gun of choice wouldn't be my 223 with the leupold...
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I forgot... if someone said grab your rifle and my life might be in danger I would be using a few thousand $ proven optic.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

If you buy quality optics on the used market, it's impossible to waste money.

You can pretty much recoup 100% of your investment at any time.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

On the other hand, quite a number of 3 gun matches have been won by top shooters using a $50 Simmons ProDiamond on their multi-thousand $$$ AR's. They didn't seem to have a problem going against other shooters using $1000+ ACOGs and SN-4's.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

If a $50 Simmons makes you grin, why not.

My point is, a new $50 Simmons will have a resale value of $20 or so. A used Leupold for $750 will have a resale value of $750.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Buy whats appropriate for your rifle and go enjoy shooting it. If someday you want a top of the line custom built rifle,that would be the time to buy the latest and greatest scope.

One of my favorite scopes ever, is the Bushnell 4200 series 6-24x40.The best glass period, of any scope in its class and acceptable in all other areas.Around $500.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

There are lots of really good scopes out there in all many price ranges. Sure you can drop $2500+ on a USO/SB and no doubt have a scope of top quality that will take more abuse than 99% of people will ever dish out.

You have NF that has some nice options at a good price point.

Leupold also has some very nice scopes, you do hear about some issues, but overall I think they do pretty well. If they had a .1mil turret option I think a lot more guys would be using them or a moa/moa setup.

The super sniper scopes are good for the $ in a fixed power, the bushnell elite 4200 6x24 is a great 30mm scope for the money.

In the end you can find something from $300 all the way to over $3000 that people use and have good luck with. In addition with optics you can usually get your money out of them if you change your mind down the road. This is good because as you learn more and find out what you need usually your first purchase was not the one you end up with down the road. You learn you like the turrets of this design or reticule of this one better etc. If you watch the for sale forum you will see that most get 90% of their investment out of a scope they sell in good condition. I think it's important with any scope to stay with a company with great customer service, that way if you do have a problem it is taken care of quickly and without hassle. Bushnell, Leupold, SB, USO, NF all have great customer service.

It's also important to be realistic in the prices. If you are looking at a MK4 illuminated 6.5-20 but think you might really want a NF it's only a couple hundred bucks more so it's not a huge jump. I admit I started with a MK4 but in the end wished I'd have spent a couple hundred more for a NF.

That and frankly the whole "do you want to be a guy who the range monkeys see as one who can't shoot that well with a spendy rig or a cheap rig" I wouldn't worry about them, people that play that game would look down on you either way. If you could shoot and had a spendy rig they'd just whine that if they had your rig they could shoot that well too. If you can't they will whine that you don't deserve it. If you can't shoot with a cheap rig they will go on and on about how you should have spent more money on better gear, and if you can shoot with a cheap rig they will whine about how their gear must be defective in some way. There's no winning with those people, they just enjoy whinning and complaining about others, so don't try.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I like Leupold because of their Warranty. I have had to send 3 scopes back to them over the years and they always made it right. But I will say I love my Nightforce and my Swarovski. I did recently order a Bushnell 6500 series and we will see what its like.
pat
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

The 3200/4200 are really impressive for the price. They have the problem of not enough adjustment in their tactical scopes but aside that issue as a general scope you get a lot for your money. And bushnell seems pretty good for service. I had an older 3200 5-15x elite mildot that had the old style plastic zero lock down adjustments, well imagine that after awhile they broke, sent it back to bushnell about two weeks ago and the replacement is due here today. I expect great service from leupold, uso, nf, etc. usually when you pay big $ part of what you are paying for is service but it's nice to see really good service from the lower end companies too. Now if they could just get more adjustment out of the 3200 and 4200 tactical.

I have not played with a 6500 but at the price some of them sell for they are starting to play with the big boys. Meopta is well known for really nice 30mm scopes, they are usually my pick for a best buy for a non-tactical scope over $500 but under $1000. The zeiss conquest in there as well.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rockz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sightron SIII 6-24x50 is a very good scope. They are on sale at Graf's for under $500 and would most likely suit your needs for quite some time.

Another scope that doesn't get much press is the weaver grand slam. I saw one at the range and was surprised by the glass and adjustments. It was during daylight so I can't say how it is in low light situations. It isn't a tactical scope, but the 6-20 model can be had for $279-$350.

I have a Nightforce NXS w/ npr2 reticle and it is an awesome scope. </div></div>

The Sightron on sale at Graf's is NOT the new Sightron SIII, so buyer beware. The new model differs significantly from the older SIII, and one of the differences is the amount of internal elevation. 100 MOA in the new model. Maybe 70 in the older SIII.

Nothing wrong with the Weaver Grand Slam either, especially for that price. Is the Nightforce worth twice the price of the new Sightron? I have both, and I'm gonna find out. But I bet it's not.
wink.gif
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I use a Mark 4 10X40 M3 and love it... Sometimes you have to look at the KISS rule. I have been in the military for 5 years and that rule has been tested and tested again. Not to mention Leupold offers a hell of a discount for LE/ Military and a great warranty.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Lets consider the question at hand. At What Point Am I Wasteing Money? The day you buy the rifle, the optics system, and the ammunition is, I believe, the proper answer. You will waste more money shooting, trying to make small groups, get the perfect zero, and shooting some more. Then you will waste money on reloading equipment so you can save money on ammunition.
Walk away from it all. Find something else that will make those hard earned dollars make more money. But if you absolutely have to shoot, welllll, get that FN SPR, get a US Optics System of scope, rail and rings for it, buy the rounds then the reloading stuff. At least when you find something else, the stuff will bring top dollar. I suppose if you buy the best, and commit to at least three competitions a year, you will not have wasted your money.
According to my ol lady, I have wasted the better part of 7k over the last few years shooting. I like wasting money this way...it's FUN!
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...According to my ol lady, I have wasted the better part of 7k over the last few years shooting. I like wasting money this way...it's FUN! </div></div>

Well said Brother!
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

new shooter commenting with head on swivel prepared to dodge bolo punches.

It appears that the question is the quality of glass wich is purely subjective in the sense the same peice of glass can get several opinions on its quality. now if two some guys one with 30/30 vision and another with 10/15 with coke bottles for glasses looks through a bsa sweet surely one will say great the other what is this crap.

I have a bsa sweet on my cz453 love it on a rim fire and it serves its purpose. but can this scope hold zero being pounded by a high power rifle year after year probably not but that is a engineering issue.

The Point: If you can see and I quote "fuckem just shoot"
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

IMO:

you are better off with a S&B on a Savage than with a BSA on an AISM
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I bought a USO sn3 Canadian as part of a group buy here a few years back. I had never really shot long range and didn't even have a respectable rifle to put it on. I skipped lunch and worked mad overtime to get that scope. It was FOR SURE more than a shooter of my skill level and experience needed. It cost more than the car I was driving at the time. I first mounted it on a Ruger 10/22. As my financial situation improved (working mad over time led to a series of raises and promotions at work) I bought a used 700 LTR and shot it quite a bit. This year the same scope moved to my new GAP .308.

I am so happy I spent the extra money for this fantastic scope. It has always preformed flawlessly. Sometimes I even miss the looks at the range I would get showing up to the range in my $500 car with a $200 .22 rifle and a 2k+ scope. I wish I had more time at the range, but this scope makes my time at the range more enjoyable. My desire to obtain high end precision shooting equipment seems to have benefits off the range as well.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you buy quality optics on the used market, it's impossible to waste money.

You can pretty much recoup 100% of your investment at any time. </div></div>

Either that or shop around for group buys, special deals from merchants on sites like these, the Microsoft/Ebay 30% off deal ...

The good stuff holds value. The cheaper stuff takes a good 30-50% hit. Spending more actually protects your money a bit better. And in the meantime, you have something decent.

I believe you should try and buy the best you can afford. That means, the best you can afford - not sacrifice on ammo/training and eating Mac & Cheese for a month. And also be reasonable within ones requirements. That works both ways. There are people that go overboard for 100 yard shooting. Then there's the other folks who expect their junk to perform at 1,000. They are the same ones printing a 5 foot pattern at 400 yards and making excuses.

Most of the time, they more you pay, the more you get. Of course, there's the 80/20 rule. It costs more and more to get less and less. But that little bit more might be a make or break. Which means it got done or it did not. What's that worth? A life? Yours, someone elses? Nothing because you shatter clay pidgeons at 300?


Very personal question. Do you demand reliable tracking? Do you value your eyes? I've been spoiled. I cannot look through poor optics any longer. The cheapest scope I can deal with is a Nikon Monarch. Some of you may laugh and say they can't or won't use anything less than a Nightforce. My standard is not necessarily trying to resolve the most minute detail 900 yards down the battlefield. It's staying away from the blurry scopes that tire your eyes. I consider that a bare minimum. I'm not one of these guys to say "if you don't get a NF or higher, you're wasting your time" ...but I do believe that the real low end stuff (sub $400) is more harmful than good. There's a certain price level that reflects a quality level that is a base line for playing the game. I put that around the $400-$500 range. That's my opinion.


Intended use matters. I kill paper at short range. Don't need an S&B for that. It would be a nice luxury. I absolutely know and appreciate the difference in quality. Real world operators are looking to take advantage of its advantages. They play a different game. That is why the internet creates controversial threads from time to time. You get a clash between those who compete, those who enforce the law or are military, the hunters, and then the hobbyist and the poseurs. One guy's frame of mind is from serious tactical application, another guy is just looking to make holes in paper at 200 but wants the higher stuff to fancy it.

Some of the finest scopes I've looked through were Zeiss and Swaro higher end models.







 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

If you're actually the noob you claim to be, it probably isn't cost effective to go out spending upper bracket bucks for top notch gear. Many of us, most of us perhaps, have equipment whose performance capabilities far exceed our own. It's not so much that the top notch gear is being wasted on us, it's more a matter of lesser implements being completely able to deliver performance that still exceeds our own capacities.

Buy enough gun, buy enough glass.

Buy once, cry once, is a message made in heaven (for folks who sell the stuff).

Buy what you can afford, and see how well it does. As a noob, it's likely gonna be some time before your skills improve to the point where it becomes apparent your equipment is limiting your performance. Some of us never reach that stage, not because we're inept, but because the lesser stuff very often meets all our needs anyway, and economically too.

I shoot Savage rifles wearing Tasco scopes. Never had one of either let me down where I could point to the item and say, not my fault, this scope is a piece of ****. When I'm shooting poorly, it's me, not the equipment.

It takes a far above average shooter to be able to take a rifle, any rifle, and either shoot it to its potential, or be able to diagnose why it's not performing. As much as many of us would like to think otherwise, we've about all of us all still got some ways to go.

A chain is no stronger than its weakest link. In my situation, that's the shooter. I am absolutely positive I am not alone in this. Honesty isn't only the best policy, it's the only one that always works. To thine own self, speak true. The most becoming attribute of a good shooter is modesty.

It is a far better investment to put that extra money into a good reliable .22LR trainer rifle and scope, than it is to walk into the gun shop and ask them to start out by showing you their top end hardware.

Greg
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I shot with cheap scopes for years before I spend the money for a good scope. Now I shoot Horus Visions on all of my longrange rifles and some of my .22 LR trainers. The more time you can spend putting rds downrange even if you are shooting a .22LR with a TASCO scope on it the better shot you will become. Its not always having the best gun and scope but being able to shoot what you do have and shoot it well that means the most at the end of the day. The more I shoot the better I get, but keep upgrading your equipment when you can or as you can afford it.

Clark K
TEAM HORUS VISION & SABRE DEFENCE
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I have an uncle with a trophy room (critter mounts) that is filled to the top with deer, lope, elk, coyotes, badgers, bobcats etc, most of which he took with rifles wearing cheap glass (BSA, Simmons, etc) to him a high end scope was was a Weaver Classic.

Then he started a guide business and started being able to afford to put money into his hobby, now he is a Swaro freak and won't touch anything else.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that will cheaper stuff do the job? Often it will, but there is definitely a difference between the cheap stuff and good glass.

One of the biggest problems for me is that my biggest interest in long range shooting is more in the direction of sniper style matches over the standard accuracy test matches. For this kind of shooting it would be hard to get by without a good milling reticule, target knobs with solid repeatable adjustment, and lots of elevation adjustment. This is harder to find in cheaper scopes, though there are some mid range scopes that do OK.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

who woulda thought there was an upside to being able to buy your own shit.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I own multiple Nikons also, and a single Leupy Vari X III, while the Nikons do the job well out to 400 yrds, anything over 500 I will use the Leupy, it is just that much more crisp out beyond that.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I realize this is an old topic but I just wanted to comment. I have been shooting and hunting for over 20 years but have only been doing so called "tactical shooting" if you will for 4 years.

One thing I learned real quick, is until you spend some time on the range trying things and shooting with people in the know you have no idea what you need or want. You can come onto a forum and be told you need to buy this and this cause it is the best blah blah blah. But will that be the best for your situation/budget/needs.

In reality most of us weekend warriors could get by with a 700P with a bedding and trigger job and a $300 super sniper. But getting by and having what you really need is two different things. If you plan on spending a lot of time behind the glass then an expensive scope with higher end glass is important. Eye fatigue sets in pretty quick for those who are using cheaper glass. They also have a harder time with mirage as well. If you plan on shooting in low light, higher end glass is important. But if all you do is shoot a couple times a month at the local range for an hour or two you many not need a $1500+ scope. A $300 to $500 scope may be all you ever need.

Then you have to deal with what type of adjustments you want or need, what type of knobs, where the parallax adjustment is located,what type of reticle. Do you really need a fancy mil or moa based reticle with all kinds of dashes and slashes all over it. You may, or a standard old duplex might suit you just fine.

The buy once cry once is kind of a misleading concept IMO. I think that for a new shooter to buy a $3000 rifle, and a $3000 scope right out of the gate is insane. Buy the $800 rifle and the $300 super sniper and use it for a couple years. Spend some time at some shooting schools learning from those that shot for a living. You will quickly learn the weaknesses and pros of your gear. Then after you have spent some time doing that you will know what you really need vs what you may think you need or what some dude on the net thinks you need. At this point turn around and sell your super sniper for $250, take your rifle and have a custom barrel put on it and buy a nicer stock. Then buy your nicer scope that has what you need. You may want a customized USO. Or you many be just fine with a Leupold, IOR, Nightforce, etc. Or that super sniper may be all you need to punch holes or shoot yotes at longer ranges with.

I think to many times people get on these forums and get told then need to spend $4000 or $5000 on a setup when in reality all they needed to spend was $1500 to $2000 and they would have been just fine. It may not always be the case, but I think sometime taking it slow and learning as you go can save a person a lot of money in the long run as well.

Anyway, just my opinion.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I've always wondered why people recomend new shooters to buy scopes with tactical reticles. A new shooter needs a lot of triggertime behind the most easyshooting reticle there is, a single dot, if he wants to learn basic shooting skills. The tactical reticles are just confusing and slow in use.

There are so many shooters out there with tactical hidollar rigs that just can't shoot or handle a rifle. They can't hit an open barn door at 300m without bipods. I'm an old MS rifle and moving target/field target shooter and to the amazement of a lot of tactical shooters I'm able to get the occational hit on a 600m 20" gong standing on my hind feet with an ElPaso Weaver T16 dot on a Sako Varmint 308. The TRG-guys will not even try this.

Hitting the the same gong is also much more difficult with a hidollar tactical scope with a cluttered reticle.

I think the best scope a newbe can buy is a 4-16 or 6.5-20 target .5moa dot silouette scope.

 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Back in the '80's I started road racing bicycles. I was all set to pull the trigger (no pun intended) on a nice new shiny $2500 road bike. A lot of my racing buddies had really cool bikes that weighed under 18 pounds and they would harass anyone who showed up on "inferior equipment". Sound familiar? A good friend gave me some of the best advice a 25 YO snot nosed kid needs. He told me to buy the cheapest bike I could get that would be adequate for what I needed and then helped me do the shopping. I bought a $499 Dave Scott signature Centurion Iron Man. I was horribly riduculed by the other racers, but I rode the wheels off that thing and learned a ton about road bikes in the 18 months I owned it because I had a working platform. Just enough to educate me. That it was too big, too heavy, too slow handling. So, I sold it for $400 and paid $800 for my next bike and continued to learn what I needed and what I desired. Eventually I built my dream road bike but it took a lot of time in the saddle to really appreciate the features, frame angles, etc. that made me faster on it.

This principle has taught me so much and has been invaluable when teaching my kids and the young guys I work with about life, hobbies, finances and responsibility.

I'm very grateful for a lot of the opinions shared in this thread. I think we have a very high responsibility to those we lead (and some of you have a high responsibility as you lead me, I'm no expert in this discipline)to base our decisions on need and fiscal responsibility (as I stated on another forum about this same topic, I didn't cause this current fiscal crisis all by my self!). Peer pressure or pride are never good reasons to spend more that you need.

But sometimes you can't learn what you need til you spend it.
smile.gif


John
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Wow, some of you guys are giving this guy TONS of info (read as I can never write that much in one post). Get what you can afford, I love my SS 10x. But once you pick up a higher end model, you will see what the price gives you. Can't say I could have afforded a higher end piece if I didn't have 2 things:
1. Most of these upper end places have ways that you can pay a bit at a time for the scopes.
2. I got one that was sitting on the shelf for less than it would have cost me if I had ordered it.

Is it more than I needed? Yes. Could I afford it? Over time. Do I now love it? Absolutely

Chad
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Ummm...wasn't this thread started in 2007? I would think alot would have changed for the original asker of the question.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Most of us that are here did not come to this sport with a $5000+ rig and just start shooting,I started with a second hand Sendero with a Buckmasters 6-18 on std bases,unknown round count.I sold it and bought a new PSS 300WM and added a 20 MOA rail and a Leupy LR/T,used it and enjoyed it,wanted a more comfortable stock,bought a McM,decided the Leupy wasn't doing it for me anymore,sold that and bought a NXS with better rings,once my custom barrel is finished,the only thing left of the original rifle will be the action,which will be worked over by a good riflesmith.I don't regret spending the money at all,because it is something I enjoy a lot.That rifle will be a $4000+ rig,but it took me years to get there,with a lot of learning along the way.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Although I'm a new member here, with a low post count, I actually have an opinion on this topic and would like to share it. *grin*

First, I'll give my answer to the OP Question; "at what point am I wasting money". Well, there is a very simple answer although the approach taken to come to this conclusion may differ from one individual to another. Nobody can tell "you" at which point you're wasting your own money. Let me expand on my response for a moment. Being new to the tactical and long range shooting sports, and based partly upon my personality type (which is to say that I really enjoy doing extensive research prior to making what I would consider to be major purchases), I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted. However, I knew that I wanted to have a weapon system that met specific criteria for me. To be blunt, it was fairly easy to research the products that would meet my criteria. I like working with the upper end of the product spectrum. If I'm going to buy a bed, I don't need to sleep on a low quality or low featured bed for two years while I experience it and learn what I do or don't like about it; to one day upgrade to a better bed. I'm going to research the features and benefits of the high-end beds "first", and purchase one of those. The same held true when I was researching which bass boat I wanted to purchase. Why in the world would I need to buy a clunker with "adequate" features when I have cash to burn and would rather have a full-featured boat to start with. I don't need to learn how the old-timers did it back in the 60's... I should and was able to learn how to bass fish using top-notch equipment and features that made for a pleasant and effecient experience.

For me, the same concepts held true when I recently purchased my first precision tactical rifle. I rearched and read about the benefits of one platform vs. another. Based on the criteria established for my shooting needs, it was "very" easy to select the most appropriate products for me to start learning and practicing with. Why in the world would I "need" to learn on 10 year old technology first, or learn to shoot a rifle that was not capable of the high-performance goals that I had established as my criteria. If my goal is tactical shooting, why waste time learning with a basic target dot crosshair scope? I would rather start off with the most appropriate scope type for my skill learning objectives.

Perhaps I'm one of the fortunate ones; cash was not a deciding factor. If I'm going to go through an extensive learning process of trigger control, learning about and improving my atmopheric reading skills, etc., I would rather do those things with the fully featured good stuff first.

These are just my opinions, but I see no reason to purchase less expensive (less quality, less featured) equipment to learn on... what's the point really, other than saving cash.

So it really does boil down to your budget. If you can't afford the good stuff today, then by all means buy the less expensive stuff. However, if you've got the cash, then by all means buy that nice bass boat, that nice road bike, that nice bed, that nice scope, or that nice whatever.
smile.gif
There's no need to use old technology, old equipment, or cheap equipment to learn with unless you just want to. That's a personal choice; there is no right or wrong approach. It's economics and personal choice that drives our purchasing decisions.

Do what makes you happy, and fits within your budget. Many folks have replied to this thread with details about the technologies used for various products related to this thread, and that was helpful and should provide a good baseline to plan budget around.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Glad you have the money to do that,just sit back with your cheeky "Grin",and laugh at the rest of us that have worked our way up.Most of us that love the sport make do with the best we can afford,actually,more than we can afford,and trade up when we can.
Lets see your Rig for starters,pics please,and where you will be starting your intro into the LR/Tactical shooting sports?You can afford the very best?show it off!!

As another member said in an earlier post;David Tubb would clean your clock with an off the shelf Ruger and a BSA scope against your $5000+ rig,you can't buy talent and experience.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rule of thumb....

you get what you pay for.....and when you buy the best....it do what its supposed to do and longer,.....when it comes time to sell ,....you get more ROI (return of investment) then compared to the lower priced "stuff".......thus in the span of ownership.....it cost less to use the best.</div></div>

You can't put it any better than that!!

But at the end of the day (IMHO) it is not about money or the best kit (although it helps), it is about experience...practice, practice, practice.

Shoot anything and everything any time you can.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad you have the money to do that,just sit back with your cheeky "Grin",and laugh at the rest of us that have worked our way up.Most of us that love the sport make do with the best we can afford,actually,more than we can afford,and trade up when we can.
Lets see your Rig for starters,pics please,and where you will be starting your intro into the LR/Tactical shooting sports?You can afford the very best?show it off!!

As another member said in an earlier post;David Tubb would clean your clock with an off the shelf Ruger and a BSA scope against your $5000+ rig,you can't buy talent and experience. </div></div>
Hi SANDRAT, you really did miss the whole point of my post. I grin a lot, so get used to it because it's part of my friendly and outgoing personality. I think my post was clear, but it appears you may have taken it personally; I don't know. At any rate, I don't have plans to laugh at anyone (well, perhaps just at you, for fun! haha). I'm only teasing of course. I'm no different than you, I'm making due with the best that I could afford...or decided to afford. My point was that there's no reason (other than to save money) for me to purchase anything less than what meets my shooting criteria. For example, the scope I selected is the PH 3-15x50mm FFP. I could have purhcased less expensive equipment, of course, but why would I?

If you appologize for being sarcastic, I'll post a photo or two. *grin*

You asked where I will be starting my intro into the sport. I'm not 100% certain that I understand the question, but I'll give it a shot. I live near Tac Pro Shooting Center, and that is my training grounds for practice, professional training, and generally having fun while I learn. I trust that meets your approval.
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You closed your post with stating that my clock is easily cleaned. You have much faith in the lack of my ability... interesting. However, I never claimed to be anything other than "new to the sport". Whether you or anyone else could clean my clock is yet to be experienced as fact. *grin* However, I can say with great confidence, that I have a lot to learn and plan to enjoy the experience completely.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SgtKope</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...According to my ol lady, I have wasted the better part of 7k over the last few years shooting. I like wasting money this way...it's FUN! </div></div>

Well said Brother! </div></div>

hell my wife joins me in it
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEGAfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You closed your post with stating that my clock is easily cleaned. You have much faith in the lack of my ability... interesting. </div></div>

Actually, he stated that Tubb could clean your clock, that is a safe bet. Tubb could clean a lot of clocks in this community we call the Earth (including mine).

You should not be offended by that. Tubb is really good. And he was not attacking your or your abilities, just making the point that the gear is not as important as the shooter.

Grin it off, it'll be OK.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Another thing to clear up here, nobody, particularly me said anything about buying clunkers/junk gear. All I said was finding out what you really need before you drop down a very large chunk of change on something that may be over kill just because that is what was recommended by someone else. It might very well be needed by some shooters, but others, maybe not.

I agree having nice equipment makes things much nicer, no argument there. But how many people do we know that gets on the net learns about this and this and then spends $5000 on a setup that they only shoot 3 or 4 times a year. What a waste when they could have gotten by for $1500 and have a gun/scope that will always be more capable than they will because they do not put in the time. Thats all I am saying. But that is not saying it is always a waste as many very well do put in the effort.

Honestly most 700Ps will shot 1 MOA no problem, many will shoot much better than that. Generally speaking Super Snipers have a good track record for repeatability and reliability (which is why I used it as an example) So saying that is junk or outdated gear is not really true. Fancy gear does not make a shooter, practice and training make a shooter.

I started with a stock 700 VS with a trigger job and spent 2 years shooting it before I started to mess with it. I took 3, 4 day classes with it and shot other more expensive fancy rifles and learned what I wanted and what I needed and decided long range shooting was something I really wanted to persue. Then I spent a bunch of money on a new stock, new bottom metal, new barrel, nicer scope and such. Now I have a gun can easily perform as good as I can ever hope too.

By the way, using a bed as an example was pretty funny. I think all of us practice with one of those enough to make any purchase justified.
wink.gif
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

prplhaz72,

You made my day
smile.gif


I agree with you for the most part. Although I prefer overkill when making purchases...that's just me. People forget one important thing about the context of this post; why does it matter if a guy spends $5k on a setup and only shoots it twice a year (for example). Again, it's economics. During those two shooting days, the guy probably wants to maximize his fun and utility. He obviously had the cash for it...so why should he be expected to purchase "adequate" gear when he can just as easily purchase and make use of nice(er) gear? People who have disposable cash don't want to just "get by", typically, they want the good stuff. If we're honest, I think we all want the good stuff. That's all I was trying to say.

So what may be considered wasteful to one person, might not be so wasteful to another...economics
smile.gif


My analogies are often geared more towards humor than science...it's a character flaw that I'm challenged with.
smile.gif


Like many new shooters, my skills are a humble representation of what the gear is actually capable of. I'm comfortble knowing that I may not ever reach a skill level to truely take advantage of my rifle's capability. But, one thing is certain; I'll never be able to use the excuse that my gear is what might be holding me back.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Actually, he stated that Tubb could clean your clock, that is a safe bet. Tubb could clean a lot of clocks in this community we call the Earth (including mine).

You should not be offended by that. Tubb is really good. And he was not attacking your or your abilities, just making the point that the gear is not as important as the shooter.
</div></div>

Ah, I wasn't offended; now if he were to have made fun of my new hair cut... that would be crossing the line!
smile.gif
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I started off many years ago buying stuff I can afford at that time. Being a noob there were a lot of things I did not consider in my purchases. As I shot more I learned what tools would work better for me. And as my income rose over the years I was able to take the next step in upgrades. Even though my income increased five fold over the last 20 years, there is still stuff I want, can't afford, and will have to make do with what I have. All I know is hanging out at the Sniper's Hide has me thinking about $2k scopes and rifles all the time even though I don't need them for what I do.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Wow, wow, wow...so much good already said.

Here is my .02....after reading this mornings paper, worth .01...

1. As America spent itself into oblivion, China grew to become the Worlds largest lender. China is the fastest growing major economy in the world. It now has the world's third largest nominal GDP -- 30 trillion yuan ($4.4 trillion). It is a member of the World Trade Organization and is the world's third largest trading power behind the US and Germany. In short, China now spends more money on new tooling than all the other countries combined...combined. Some would not like to think so, but some of the best tooling and materials in the world now reside in China. And, whereas some would not like to think so, Chinca's ability to deliver relatively inexpensive highest end optical products is only disputed in rifle threads, and only in a poor light (at the high end) in threads like SH. So be it.

Based on what you have written, you, sir, need not a spend a single penny more than a new Millet scope will cost you. Their newest tactical line 6-25X56 is nothing short of a remarkable bargain and as close to high end glass dumping as the law allows. U.S. Optics? Leupold? NightForce? Great, great scopes and quickly becoming a requirement for about .0005% of all shooters. All the others, including you? Spend $700 and be astonished.

A note: As to the arguement of "it all breaks down to the quality of the glass itself", quite correct.....who do you think buys more of the worlds highest quality glass production than, yep....all other nations combined? And who do you think is bringing on line not one but SIX new glass facilities with the aid of all the top glass makers?

Do I like it? Hell no. But this is where we find ourselves.

No cookie for Rollin'
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Hey one pinny pincher to another, SS are nice and great looking/performing scopes for the price, BUT the knobs drive me crazy! For the same price roughly you can pick up a Falcon menace with way better knobs and arguably a better but not as recognized scope. Ya go with the more expensive glass if you can afford it cause really you cant shoot something you cant see. But when I bought cheaper scopes I first made sure that they were quality then won't lie made sure they made the rifle look sexy lol.
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

For all those that counsel buying a cheaper scope because you don't plan on being in combat, I have one word for you....

Zombies.


You never know...


^_^
 
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

there are a lot of things being said here that i can agree with. although i've been shooting for years, i'm new to the long range game.

i've always been under the impression that you shoot what you can afford,get good with it, and upgrade when you can, to the gear that you then find yourself needing for the achieved skill level. more then once i've seen guys show up with top of the line gear, fizzel out next to the guy with average gear and more practice or comitment. the best scope in the world won't make a bad shooter do well, however a good scope will aid a good shooter to do well.