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Night Vision Average L3 Filmless Specs?

R

RPGesus

Private
Minuteman
Jul 26, 2020
25
9
Anybody have current knowledge on what to expect from L3 Filmless Tubes as far as specs? I'm just looking for kind of what's an average set of numbers for current production. I haven't seen a spreadsheet in awhile.......
For instance is 2600 FOM, .5 EBI, .6 Halo, and 2500 Photocathode Sensitivity w/65000 gain on the high or low end?
 
Average... it's hard to say being that most people only talk about the positive attributes over the negative.

I would say if a tube meets this criteria it's in the realm of good or great. Of course, these same tubes could have a horrendous amount of Zone 1 or 2 specs or honeycomb. It really depends on your tolerance.

30+ S/N
72+ LPmm
.9< Halo
.9< EBI
 
SkyScrapin said:
Average... it's hard to say being that most people only talk about the positive attributes over the negative.

I would say if a tube meets this criteria it's in the realm of good or great. Of course, these same tubes could have a horrendous amount of Zone 1 or 2 specs or honeycomb. It really depends on your tolerance.

30+ S/N
72+ LPmm
.9< Halo
.9< EBI
Click to expand...
What I'm hearing is that something with 35+ S/N, with Halo and EBI well below 1 is pretty common. This means FOM of 2500 or higher is nothing special. I'm also hearing that it's not uncommon to get get PS#'s in excess of 2400. And with new tubes i'm told to expect very little peppering or blems. If I'm paying 10K plus for a setup, my tolerance for irregularities is pretty darn low and my expectations are pretty high. Especially as someone who has used issued night vision semi-regularly......
So again, is there anything unusual about those types of numbers? Is this like the top 10% of new L3 tubes?
 
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I know this isn’t really answering the OP, but...

Monster tube specs are great, and we all want them, but the rest of the package is just as important. I have a set of DTNVGs that have solid ~2300 FOM L3 tubes. Nothing special, but nothing to sneeze at either. I was never really impressed with them, so they got a total of about 3 hours of use in the first 12-18 months of ownership. After talking to a buddy who is a bit of a low-key legend, I sent them to him. He worked some mystical mojo and also installed a set of super rare, very expensive bespoke optics.

Night and day. I prefer these over 31A’s and another set of dual tubes with ~2700 FOM tubes installed.

So, if you put bare tubes in front of me, of course I’ll take the better specs. But inside a well-tuned system, tube specs only tell half the story. Since I buy my toys with the intent of using them, and not with an eye toward resale value, I’m less influenced amd impressed by bonkers FOM numbers than I used to be.
 
TheHorta said:
I know this isn’t really answering the OP, but...

Monster tube specs are great, and we all want them, but the rest of the package is just as important. I have a set of DTNVGs that have solid ~2300 FOM L3 tubes. Nothing special, but nothing to sneeze at either. I was never really impressed with them, so they got a total of about 3 hours of use in the first 12-18 months of ownership. After talking to a buddy who is a bit of a low-key legend, I sent them to him. He worked some mystical mojo and also installed a set of super rare, very expensive bespoke optics.

Night and day. I prefer these over 31A’s and another set of dual tubes with ~2700 FOM tubes installed.

So, if you put bare tubes in front of me, of course I’ll take the better specs. But inside a well-tuned system, tube specs only tell half the story. Since I buy my toys with the intent of using them, and not with an eye toward resale value, I’m less influenced amd impressed by bonkers FOM numbers than I used to be.
Click to expand...
I get it, and I concur with you. But without having the ability to look through systems and compare them the numbers are basically what I have to go off of.
 
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RPGesus said:
Anybody have current knowledge on what to expect from L3 Filmless Tubes as far as specs? I'm just looking for kind of what's an average set of numbers for current production. I haven't seen a spreadsheet in awhile.......
For instance is 2600 FOM, .5 EBI, .6 Halo, and 2500 Photocathode Sensitivity w/65000 gain on the high or low end?
Click to expand...

Dunno, some might say a solid 8.5 :LOL:


1597796785637.png
 
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RPGesus said:
What I'm hearing is that something with 35+ S/N, with Halo and EBI well below 1 is pretty common. This means FOM of 2500 or higher is nothing special. I'm also hearing that it's not uncommon to get get PS#'s in excess of 2400. And with new tubes i'm told to expect very little peppering or blems. If I'm paying 10K plus for a setup, my tolerance for irregularities is pretty darn low and my expectations are pretty high. Especially as someone who has used issued night vision semi-regularly......
So again, is there anything unusual about those types of numbers? Is this like the top 10% of new L3 tubes?
Click to expand...

It’s common for peeps to brag about them when they have em (myself included), but it ain’t common.
 
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TheHorta said:
I know this isn’t really answering the OP, but...

Monster tube specs are great, and we all want them, but the rest of the package is just as important. I have a set of DTNVGs that have solid ~2300 FOM L3 tubes. Nothing special, but nothing to sneeze at either. I was never really impressed with them, so they got a total of about 3 hours of use in the first 12-18 months of ownership. After talking to a buddy who is a bit of a low-key legend, I sent them to him. He worked some mystical mojo and also installed a set of super rare, very expensive bespoke optics.

Night and day. I prefer these over 31A’s and another set of dual tubes with ~2700 FOM tubes installed.

So, if you put bare tubes in front of me, of course I’ll take the better specs. But inside a well-tuned system, tube specs only tell half the story. Since I buy my toys with the intent of using them, and not with an eye toward resale value, I’m less influenced amd impressed by bonkers FOM numbers than I used to be.
Click to expand...

I’m curious what optics he installed. Would you be willing to share?

As the PVS-14 optics still seem to tube the gold standard despite being decades old.
 
cajer said:
I’m curious what optics he installed. Would you be willing to share?

As the PVS-14 optics still seem to tube the gold standard despite being decades old.
Click to expand...

I’ll have to get details from him (forgot), but they’re from a dude that is having trouble making them and sourcing parts to get the costs down to where more people would be willing to have it done. Kinda pricey right now at $3K for optics alone.

A few here know about it. Maybe they can chime in?
 
cajer said:
I’m curious what optics he installed. Would you be willing to share?

As the PVS-14 optics still seem to tube the gold standard despite being decades old.
Click to expand...
PVS-14. My understanding is that the brand of PVS-14 glass can be very important. There is one common manufacturer that a lot of places use that supposedly has circumspect quality control.
 
I’m waiting on those lenses right now, the guy told me it could be up to a six month wait. They come as a set with objective and ocular lenses, but I was told that Ether oculars work just as well so I’m keeping those and only buying the objectives. They are pretty pricy. I’m on month two right now so hopefully they come in soon.
 
Shreddingaxes said:
I’m waiting on those lenses right now, the guy told me it could be up to a six month wait. They come as a set with objective and ocular lenses, but I was told that Ether oculars work just as well so I’m keeping those and only buying the objectives. They are pretty pricy. I’m on month two right now so hopefully they come in soon.
Click to expand...

Could you give some more info on them? Are they brighter/faster lenses or do they just have better resolution? Also what do they fit into or who would I talk to in order to get more info?
 
Ditto on this. Curious on Shreddingaxes' comment on dep oculars. From speaking with the ppl at NVD supposedly the polymer optics on their BNVD-UL and mini-b were DEP ocular and objectives, which lead to the weight savings and superior optical quality compared to the milspec.

I wonder how a set of the dep optics would compare to these wonder optics
 
TheHorta said:
I’ll have to get details from him (forgot), but they’re from a dude that is having trouble making them and sourcing parts to get the costs down to where more people would be willing to have it done. Kinda pricey right now at $3K for optics alone.

A few here know about it. Maybe they can chime in?
Click to expand...
Rochester
 
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I was asked to shut up on it for 30 days or so. I’ve sent a few peeps and they asked me to pump the brakes until they’re ready.

Looks like they’re coming to market!!!
 
Thought NVDevices contracted with RPO for the optics on their UL line and that the Ether was also with them.
 
RPGesus said:
Anybody have current knowledge on what to expect from L3 Filmless Tubes as far as specs? I'm just looking for kind of what's an average set of numbers for current production. I haven't seen a spreadsheet in awhile.......
For instance is 2600 FOM, .5 EBI, .6 Halo, and 2500 Photocathode Sensitivity w/65000 gain on the high or low end?
Click to expand...
I’d say those specs are on the higher end. Not the highest possible by any means but a hair above average.

EBI readings have been right around your number of .5, I’ve had several .2-.4 lately. Halo is pretty common at .7 with an occasional .6 or .8.

I’m sending out 2 Vypers today with

72lp
37.8/37.6
65k gain
.3-.4 ebi

These two are definitely higher than average but there seems to be a couple in every batch from L3 lately. Even had a 1701 show up with
72lp
41.2 snr
2.3ebi though



If I had to place an “average” number on the 20ua/um right now I’d say 72/34/65k/.8EBI/.7 halo.

Jay
 
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Surgeon_Shooter said:
I’d say those specs are on the higher end. Not the highest possible by any means but a hair above average.

EBI readings have been right around your number of .5, I’ve had several .2-.4 lately. Halo is pretty common at .7 with an occasional .6 or .8.

I’m sending out 2 Vypers today with

72lp
37.8/37.6
65k gain
.3-.4 ebi

These two are definitely higher than average but there seems to be a couple in every batch from L3 lately. Even had a 1701 show up with
72lp
41.2 snr
2.3ebi though



If I had to place an “average” number on the 20ua/um right now I’d say 72/34/65k/.8EBI/.7 halo.

Jay
Click to expand...
Thanks, Jay. That's just what I'm looking for.
 
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It’s amazing that, in a galaxy jam-packed with 100-BILLION stars, our nearest neighbor is 24925370000000 miles (4.24 light years) away (Proxima Centauri).

That fact alone staggers the imagination, never mind that our galaxy is just one in a trillion.

And we think the universe is concerned with our little lives.
 
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TheHorta said:
It’s amazing that, in a galaxy jam-packed with 100-BILLION stars, our nearest neighbor is 24925370000000 miles (4.24 light years) away (Proxima Centauri).

That fact alone staggers the imagination, never mind that our galaxy is just one in a trillion.

And we think the universe is concerned with our little lives.
Click to expand...
Easy on the Nitrous bro. 👍
 
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TheHorta said:
It’s amazing that, in a galaxy jam-packed with 100-BILLION stars, our nearest neighbor is 24925370000000 miles (4.24 light years) away (Proxima Centauri).

That fact alone staggers the imagination, never mind that our galaxy is just one in a trillion.

And we think the universe is concerned with our little lives.
Click to expand...
Horta whats some of the specs on your best tube?
halfway expecting a response of 5200 fom.
 
Surgeon_Shooter said:
No sir. It’s just a spot, doesn’t seem to be going to air.

Jay
Click to expand...
How can you tell/what are the diagnostic characteristics of that? I freely admit to being 100% new to this. DO mine look okay? Seriously, it got me Googling.
118459991_10100310866654131_2181857463026048487_o.jpg
 
JWG said:
How can you tell/what are the diagnostic characteristics of that? I freely admit to being 100% new to this. DO mine look okay? Seriously, it got me Googling.
118459991_10100310866654131_2181857463026048487_o.jpg
Click to expand...
Looks good to me man!

When they go to air (begin to lose vacuum) it starts fading to black from the edge Similar to the Photonis I posted above but they look a bit different. I thought I had a MX10130c tube that was going to air but I just tested it and it’s just ugly lol.

Jay
 
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Surgeon_Shooter said:
Looks good to me man!

When they go to air (begin to lose vacuum) it starts fading to black from the edge Similar to the Photonis I posted above but they look a bit different. I thought I had a MX10130c tube that was going to air but I just tested it and it’s just ugly lol.

Jay
Click to expand...
You seem pretty knowledgeable about tubes...what's the ghosting I'm seeing here? I can see it panningoutside, it's not illumination artifact. It's best seen at 0:10, over the upper corner of the doorframe. Video only kicked up a smaller section of it, but the tube there just seems...darker? In actual use, I can see a larger area there than the camera saw. No blurry or resolution issues, just...darker? Like I'm seeing a shadow.
 
JWG said:
You seem pretty knowledgeable about tubes...what's the ghosting I'm seeing here? I can see it panningoutside, it's not illumination artifact. It's best seen at 0:10, over the upper corner of the doorframe. Video only kicked up a smaller section of it, but the tube there just seems...darker? In actual use, I can see a larger area there than the camera saw. No blurry or resolution issues, just...darker? Like I'm seeing a shadow.
Click to expand...

Ill be interested to hear what otheres say. I just sent a tube back to be replaced because it was ghosting the line between trees and skyline. real bad. honestly I had a hard time describing it in a way that made sense. was almost like a coti like effect around the edge of the trees when i moved the nod side to side.
its hard to tell if thats what you have going on, but when you said ghosting that got my attention. I used those exact words in trying to describe it.
 
JWG said:
You seem pretty knowledgeable about tubes...what's the ghosting I'm seeing here? I can see it panningoutside, it's not illumination artifact. It's best seen at 0:10, over the upper corner of the doorframe. Video only kicked up a smaller section of it, but the tube there just seems...darker? In actual use, I can see a larger area there than the camera saw. No blurry or resolution issues, just...darker? Like I'm seeing a shadow.
Click to expand...

If there’s a fair amount of ambient light or your illuminator is on then you may be seeing a small amount of temp burn. Temp burn is typical, especially when the tube has just been powered on. After a few minutes of run time the temp burn effects begin to dissipate. Nate mentioned the tree line causing the same effect, thats very common. Some tubes are worse than others but it doesn’t hurt a thing and usually fades after a few minutes of being powered on.

Jay
 
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Surgeon_Shooter said:
If there’s a fair amount of ambient light or your illuminator is on then you may be seeing a small amount of temp burn. Temp burn is typical, especially when the tube has just been powered on. After a few minutes of run time the temp burn effects begin to dissipate. Nate mentioned the tree line causing the same effect, thats very common. Some tubes are worse than others but it doesn’t hurt a thing and usually fades after a few minutes of being powered on.

Jay
Click to expand...
What mine did was very very pronounced and got worse over time. and it honestly didnt do it when I first got it. it was so bad it was a complete distraction and when it was doing it it seemed to reduce the resolution of the whole screen noticeably. I spent probably an hour trying to get a good video of it but due to having to move it and keep the phone behind it i just couldnt ever capture what was going on. was pretty disappointing, it was a 2850 fom tube. all the other specs were really rock solid. Ive not looked thru ALOT of nightvision but I did serve a little and may have peaked thru quite a few pvs14s back in my day. never had seen anything like this. sometimes it was treeline silhouettes sometimes it was everything with a hard edge outline. Ill also say, Ive had a very hard time putting into words what Im seeing in a way that other people understand. so theres that.
didnt mean to hijack, apologize. saw an opportunity to educate myself.
 
Surgeon_Shooter said:
If there’s a fair amount of ambient light or your illuminator is on then you may be seeing a small amount of temp burn. Temp burn is typical, especially when the tube has just been powered on. After a few minutes of run time the temp burn effects begin to dissipate. Nate mentioned the tree line causing the same effect, thats very common. Some tubes are worse than others but it doesn’t hurt a thing and usually fades after a few minutes of being powered on.

Jay
Click to expand...
This seems to have been there since I got it (30 minutes of runtime ago, its newnew). I shoeboxed it yesterday for 4 hours, and am shoeboxing it again today for even longer. Could it just be a tube quirk? Will it worsen?
 
This is a close-up of the unit with illumination on (the lines are ceiling topography). Doesn't really show up unless I am panning/moving.
20200828_050935.jpg
 
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