Avoid Palmetto State Armory

[RUTGERS95]

Orders $20k in gear, from PSA. Then, it takes him several months to open the packages? Yeah, there's enough fail in this story for everyone to have a heaping spoonful...

maybe he's a busy man
regardless, point still stands and it's impossible to defend a company with the litany of issues we see almost daily

their reddit page is even funnier as almost every time you look at it; 3-4 of top ten are issues in qc

just can't defend it imho

there is cheap, there cheap with a purpose and then there is stupid cheap

don't be cheap

 

[cas6969]

Brought back for its one year anniversary! Hooray!

OP is right though, I ordered grilled cheese from PSA and when I got it the cheese wasn't hardly even melted at all.

 

[WindstormSCR]

lol blame the victim of a company with shitty qc and knowingly sending out garbage seemingly routinely

stop

I think ‘knowingly’ is putting intent in the mix that isn’t there. The rifles are built to a price point, so an educated buyer should be doing some extra checks, same as if you buy any other item that is designed to be as inexpensive as possible. Its less that they want to put out products with issues as the volume far exceeds most other manufacturers, on top of front line QC being probably significantly less experienced than other companies selling at higher price points, thus not knowing everything to look for.

Having worked as QC in a machine shop, it takes time to train people on all possible flaws to find in a product, and even then, you may still have some escapes depending on your processes and individual competence. fully automated QC is a very expensive proposition still unfortunately, so its unlikely that PSA would invest in such processes, unlike those producers doing .mil stuff where the capability may be a contract requirement.

and pointing out to someone they should have opened a package on arrival isn’t victim blaming, as much as pointing out they had an opportunity to fix the problem and for whatever reason did not.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I think ‘knowingly’ is putting intent in the mix that isn’t there. The rifles are built to a price point, so an educated buyer should be doing some extra checks, same as if you buy any other item that is designed to be as inexpensive as possible. Its less that they want to put out products with issues as the volume far exceeds most other manufacturers, on top of front line QC being probably significantly less experienced than other companies selling at higher price points, thus not knowing everything to look for.

Having worked as QC in a machine shop, it takes time to train people on all possible flaws to find in a product, and even then, you may still have some escapes depending on your processes and individual competence. fully automated QC is a very expensive proposition still unfortunately, so its unlikely that PSA would invest in such processes, unlike those producers doing .mil stuff where the capability may be a contract requirement.

and pointing out to someone they should have opened a package on arrival isn’t victim blaming, as much as pointing out they had an opportunity to fix the problem and for whatever reason did not.

stop

all this mental gymnastics in defense of a company qc that is beyond lacking, regardless of view that every American should own a firearm that I APPLAUD, is both sad and comedic

it's best to just say, 'yeah PSA pumps out some awful shit more than they should but they are trying.

we'll leave it there

 

[WindstormSCR]

stop

all this mental gymnastics in defense of a company qc that is beyond lacking, regardless of view that every American should own a firearm that I APPLAUD, is both sad and comedic

it's best to just say, 'yeah PSA pumps out some awful shit more than they should but they are trying.

we'll leave it there

its not mental gymnastics, its a realistic take from someone who has actually worked in quality control. people are quick to say "oh what shit QC" when they have zero fucking idea of the actual realities of the job.

 

[Charmingmander]

its not mental gymnastics, its a realistic take from someone who has actually worked in quality control. people are quick to say "oh what shit QC" when they have zero fucking idea of the actual realities of the job.

It's pretty clear PSA does not invest in QC. If you look at the videos of BCM's shop and how they QC things, it makes it very obvious PSA does not have a similar check system because if they did, many of the issues you see with PSA stuff would be caught.

We've even seen receivers that aren't uniformly machined and that shouldn't ever happen.


People screech about "the vision/goal of the company/CEO are so great!" when PSA's goal from the get go just seems to be push out as much shit as possible to rake in money. Clearly it works because they've been buying up and expending left and right. Just because the CEO talks a great game doesn't mean they deserve your money.


I don't understand why people will buy truckloads of low grade junk from them instead of just buying an Aero lower and a BCM upper, a good optic setup, then get ammo, gear, training and night vision. "I can arm the whole neighborhood!" yeah with shitty quality junk instead of making yourself a force multiplier and encouraging others to be the same.

 

[hlee]

I don't understand why people will buy truckloads of low grade junk from them instead of just buying an Aero lower and a BCM upper, a good optic setup, then get ammo, gear, training and night vision.

Probably the same reason that some people buy a 55 gal drum of dried beans when the could buy a smaller quantity of “higher quality” food…

 

[Charmingmander]

Probably the same reason that some people buy a 55 gal drum of dried beans when the could buy a smaller quantity of “higher quality” food…

Apples and oranges. Seriously.

 

[MadDuner]

To read this thread, a person would think that the government was mandating some of you assholes to buy PSA products.

If you don’t like it - don’t fucking buy it!
As simple as that.
Just don’t get too butt-hurt when somebody out-performs you and your Gucci equipment with a $400 carbine.

Or is that actually what’s driving the conversation already?
I have my suspicions.

 

[Charmingmander]

To read this thread, a person would think that the government was mandating some of you assholes to buy PSA products.

If you don’t like it - don’t fucking buy it!
As simple as that.
Just don’t get too butt-hurt when somebody out-performs you and your Gucci equipment with a $400 carbine.

Or is that actually what’s driving the conversation already?
I have my suspicions.

Out performs by what metric?

Has nothing to do with that. Myself personally I try to steer people toward buying reliable tools. Because they're tools. Not toys. Will everyone shoot 5000 rounds through their AR15 and have parts break like they have been shown to on PSAs?

Maybe not. But that isn't the point. When you can assemble or buy a better quality product that's still sub $1000 that doesn't come with shitty QA or QC or crooked gas blocks or uppers machined so poorly that a BCG doesn't even fit in it properly, why not save a little bit more money to have a better tool? I'll never understand the "I'm too poor to afford anything else" crowd. I was making less than $25k a year and still had gone through multiple LaRue Tactical rifles while having extremely poor financial habits. You afford what you want to afford.

My currant main squeeze is a Block II clone using a DD SOCOM upper from Brownells and that whole rifle assembled was less than a bitch stock DDM4; and I used better parts all around than one. I'd hardly call that Gucci.

They are not "just as gud". They never have been. If people like owning subpar quality stuff fine. Go ahead. Just don't be delusional about it and fanboy the product. No one serious about civilian defense should be putting PSA on the same level as companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, or even Smith & Wesson.

 

[MadDuner]

Out performs by what metric?

Has nothing to do with that. Myself personally I try to steer people toward buying reliable tools. Because they're tools. Not toys. Will everyone shoot 5000 rounds through their AR15 and have parts break like they have been shown to on PSAs?

Maybe not. But that isn't the point. When you can assemble or buy a better quality product that's still sub $1000 that doesn't come with shitty QA or QC or crooked gas blocks or uppers machined so poorly that a BCG doesn't even fit in it properly, why not save a little bit more money to have a better tool? I'll never understand the "I'm too poor to afford anything else" crowd. I was making less than $25k a year and still had gone through multiple LaRue Tactical rifles while having extremely poor financial habits. You afford what you want to afford.

My currant main squeeze is a Block II clone using a DD SOCOM upper from Brownells and that whole rifle assembled was less than a bitch stock DDM4; and I used better parts all around than one. I'd hardly call that Gucci.

They are not "just as gud". They never have been. If people like owning subpar quality stuff fine. Go ahead. Just don't be delusional about it and fanboy the product. No one serious about civilian defense should be putting PSA on the same level as companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, or even Smith & Wesson.

You are completely welcome to your views.

I personally do not know what you are talking about when it comes to poor quality control, or reliability issues. But I suspect some of it has to do with the fact that new inexperienced shooters will start with an inexpensive piece - then begin to learn how to maintain it over time spent using it. When they have a problem - it’s the gun’s fault. Regardless of the fact they put the bolt in backwards or fed it the lowest priced steel case ammo they could afford to buy for it. I guarantee that the exact same mistakes are made by the same inexperienced shooters - regardless of the name on the box for their first rifle.

The same thing happens in the aviation world.
The less-expensive aircraft are where people start.
Those just happen to also be the ones that hit the ground more often.
Not because of manufacturing flaws or poor workmanship - but because of operator error.

 

[Charmingmander]

You are completely welcome to your views.

I personally do not know what you are talking about when it comes to poor quality control, or reliability issues. But I suspect some of it has to do with the fact that new inexperienced shooters will start with an inexpensive piece - then begin to learn how to maintain it over time spent using it. When they have a problem - it’s the gun’s fault. Regardless of the fact they put the bolt in backwards or fed it the lowest priced steel case ammo they could afford to buy for it. I guarantee that the exact same mistakes are made by the same inexperienced shooters - regardless of the name on the box for their first rifle.

The same thing happens in the aviation world.
The less-expensive aircraft are where people start.
Those just happen to also be the ones that hit the ground more often.
Not because of manufacturing flaws or poor workmanship - but because of operator error.

Some of the stuff I'm mentioning have been posted on this very forum lmao.

Poor receiver machining is not "operator error". Early barrel wear is not "operator error". Flaking finish on some of their BCG's is not "operator error". Crooked gas blocks (I've seen in person. Pinned gas blocks no less) is not "operator error".

You cannot be serious.

 

[MadDuner]

Some of the stuff I'm mentioning have been posted on this very forum lmao.

Poor receiver machining is not "operator error". Early barrel wear is not "operator error". Flaking finish on some of their BCG's is not "operator error". Crooked gas blocks (I've seen in person. Pinned gas blocks no less) is not "operator error".

You cannot be serious.

I am just amazed at how much energy you are putting into shitting on a company that offers reasonable priced products to support the 2A and shooting public.

 

[ut755ln]

I am just amazed at how much energy you are putting into shitting on a company that offers reasonable priced products to support the 2A and shooting public.

Not only that, they are actually listening to their customers and bringing new things to market that are interesting.

 

[Charmingmander]

I am just amazed at how much energy you are putting into shitting on a company that offers reasonable priced products to support the 2A and shooting public.

I'm not even shitting on them. These are facts.

The only reason they are so cheap is cheap labor, volume sales, lack of QA/QC checks (again labor).

They are not the only company that sells "reasonable priced" products. I appreciate what the company tries to do, but their QA/QC problems have been going on since they first became well known and they haven't improved despite massive monetary gains to the point that they've built more store fronts, more shop space, and even bought out other companies.

Yet somehow they can't even ship a handgun with all it's pins to someone who is doing a video for them lmao.


I do not recommend PSA products unless someone already has trustworthy decent guns and just wants a plinker/beater for the range. All the warm fuzzy marketing crap means nothing to me when the company can't even invest in basic QC/QA.

 

[hlee]

I am just amazed at how much energy you are putting into shitting on a company that offers reasonable priced products to support the 2A and shooting public.

Cheap and reliable, when found together, ruin the value proposition of expensive and marginally more reliable…

 

[Charmingmander]

Cheap and reliable, when found together, ruin the value proposition of expensive and marginally more reliable…

You clearly can't comprehend my point. I've owned everything from PSA to Windham to LaRue to DD. I'm not even defending any other company. I just don't see the point in spending a little less money on something that I know is not as good as something that costs a little more.

I don't see the "value" in taking a gamble on something slightly less expensive when I don't have to. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

 

[hlee]

You clearly can't comprehend my point. I've owned everything from PSA to Windham to LaRue to DD. I'm not even defending any other company. I just don't see the point in spending a little less money on something that I know is not as good as something that costs a little more.

I don't see the "value" in taking a gamble on something slightly less expensive when I don't have to. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

No, I understand your point. I just think that- for most buyers, and especially those in the budget category- your point is invalid. The average AR buyer’s key criteria is “is an AR.” Full stop.

They’re taking it to the range a couple of times a year to mag dump a few times into a dirt berm at 25 yards.

Or, they mount an optic, zero it, and it never gets handled again until a “bump in the night.”

And, there are a few whose idea of prepping is having a literal arsenal that they can dole out to their rag-tag “civil defense force” after that SHTF situation.

That buyer can get a complete Anderson rifle for $429 and buy bulk ammo at $0.60/round from Palmetto State armory, today. And- I know you’re not going to believe this- but it is actually very unlikely that they will encounter a problem with the gun(s).

Comparing to BCM, I’m seeing ~$1500 as the min cost to entry. That’s not insignificant. That’s not “slightly more expensive.” That’s 3x more money, or for just another $1000. All for zero real performance gain- given the use case.

Palmetto’s core market isn’t here on SH. It’s not “the gun guy.” They don’t appear to care about “the sophisticated semi-auto rifle enthusiast.”

“Get a KAC or GBPSE” is a vibe. But a hi point will turn you into a “loot drop” all the same.

 

[MadDuner]

I'm not even shitting on them. These are facts.

The only reason they are so cheap is cheap labor, volume sales, lack of QA/QC checks (again labor).

They are not the only company that sells "reasonable priced" products. I appreciate what the company tries to do, but their QA/QC problems have been going on since they first became well known and they haven't improved despite massive monetary gains to the point that they've built more store fronts, more shop space, and even bought out other companies.

Yet somehow they can't even ship a handgun with all it's pins to someone who is doing a video for them lmao.


I do not recommend PSA products unless someone already has trustworthy decent guns and just wants a plinker/beater for the range. All the warm fuzzy marketing crap means nothing to me when the company can't even invest in basic QC/QA.

All according to you.

We can all see that you really believe that your voice matters, is the only correct voice, and most everyone else is wrong.

Like I said earlier... You are entitled to your own opinion.
We heard you say the same exact thing numerous times.
That doesn’t make your opinion any more valid, or anyone else’s any more, or any less valid.
We ALL get one. Yours counts the same as mine, the same as the next guy.

Vote with your wallet.
Spend your money where you want.
I’ll spend mine where I want.
The next guy is going to spend his where he wants.
Ain’t America great!

 

[Tiribulus]

THIS thread is well worth reading.

 

[FuhQ]

Anybody else think it's an odd coincidence that this OP ordered $20K worth of Poors rifle parts around the same time that our old cheap-ass buddy ScopeEye supposedly ordered $20,000 worth of Poors (Athlon) scopes, and got screwed on that order, as well, and made a thread on here to bitch about getting screwed on his Poors scopes... The pattern is either pure coincidence...Which I don't believe in...Or they're one and the same with 2 different accounts.

 

[Grim's Reapers]

This right here is why we can't have nice things.

Some jackass trying to make a buck hoarding all the supplies "just in case"

Toilet paper comes to mind...

 

[bfoosh006]

THIS thread is well worth reading.

Certainly looks like he got his moneys worth. 10K of shooting for 400 bucks a PSA.

There are always going to be PSA haters.

Some of them don't miss a PSA thread without slamming on PSA.

But, don't worry, they are those same people that have to right about everything. ( I'd bet they would say your USA made ball ammo is crap as well.. better stop using that ?! )
Frankly, some of those same people hate PSA so much, I quit trusting their opinions.
I don't think they can be trusted to give a fair appraisal of something like the above linked PSA.

Some Members PSA input is well respected by me.

Even if your PSA's have been GTG. .. they want to "set you right".
They say you are wrong... they say you don't know what you need.. every time.

Imagine if you got the same crap said about your car... "its a POS".. you NEED to upgrade...
Not everyone can afford a Mercedes Benz... frankly most of us drive more common, affordable vehicles that suit the need on hand.
But , but Mercedes has more QC... and yet they have recalls.

Both can get the job done... buy what you can afford and enjoy it.

Is PSA the ultimate AR ? Nah... but all mine have been GTG for me. Even after many thousands of rounds per PSA AR ...Keep 'em lubed and they will run.

If a PSA cost 3x as much... would that make those same haters happy ? With 3x the QC ?
I doubt it.
Those same people never mention all the Happy PSA shooters.

I have had one issue with all my PSA's ... a loose A2 flash hider.

If you don't like PSA products, then don't buy them.
Pretty simple.

But there is no denying the positive impact on AR sales.

For the PSA haters... what percentage of PSA AR's are POS with issues straight out of the factory ?
I know PSA produces a crap load of AR's and they still sell a crap load even to this day... so they must be doing something right after all this time.
I realize you can read about the issues... thanks to PSA being straight forth, and have a person willing to help on the various forums ( Something lots of manufacturers lack )
PSA will fix an issue... if they have one.

 

[Charmingmander]

The fact that any time someone points out the inconsistency issues with PSA means they're a "hater" shows how brain dead firearms discussion has become.

I'm not a hater lmao. I want them to stop letting garbage leave their shops.

 

[bfoosh006]

The fact that any time someone points out the inconsistency issues with PSA means they're a "hater" shows how brain dead firearms discussion has become.

I'm not a hater lmao. I want them to stop letting garbage leave their shops.

FWIW, I wasn't talking about you.

I can appreciate your perspective / opinion, and respect your thoughts on the matter.

IMHO, hiring more qualified employees might help. I am not sure if the average worker, doing one task, would recognize all the nuances that could stack up.

You might know, how much QC does PSA do ? ( Not trying to be a smart ass )

Do they batch check parts ? I know they test fire every firearm.

How much would all the extra QC cost ? Again not trying to be a smartass... trying to figure out how much that QC would add to the buyer.

Anyone got a link to what PSA does for QC ? Not a PSA QC issue link, but something from PSA ?

 

[hlee]

I don’t think PSA is doing much of any QC. They are not SOTAR. They’re not mic’ing every bolt and carrier that comes through the door. And- I may be wrong- I don’t think that they are actually manufacturing anything. QC for the parts that they buy and assemble into firearms falls on their vendors. And, the amount of QC done on those parts is a function of the “tier” of parts that PSA is buying.

I’d surmise that their QC is something on the order of a visual inspection; “yep, all of the parts are assembled into the correct locations.” And,a function check; “yep, it fires and ejects.”

I’ve seen enough YouTube videos of PSA rifles to know to check all of the fasteners before taking one to the range. The video that TREX Arms did on the JAKL was almost comical. Check every screw, every bolt, every nut , including the barrel nut before firing…

When you buy a PSA rifle, you are buying a cheap rifle. You are getting what you paid for. But, cheap =/= garbage. That word is bandied about on this forum with reckless abandon. “Anything less than a KAC is hot garbage.” Fuck a whole lot of that noise. To me cheap = “trust but verify.”

Edited to correct equality…

 

[ut755ln]

“Anything less than a KAC is hot garbage.” Fuck a whole lot of that noise. To me cheap =/= “trust but verify.”

After a baffle strike, I now check alignment of every rifle and can regardless of who made it.

 

[Makinchips208]

I don’t think PSA is doing much of any QC. They are not SOTAR. They’re not mic’ing every bolt and carrier that comes through the door. And- I may be wrong- I don’t think that they are actually manufacturing anything. QC for the parts that they buy and assemble into firearms falls on their vendors. And, the amount of QC done on those parts is a function of the “tier” of parts that PSA is buying.

I’d surmise that their QC is something on the order of a visual inspection; “yep, all of the parts are assembled into the correct locations.” And,a function check; “yep, it fires and ejects.”

I’ve seen enough YouTube videos of PSA rifles to know to check all of the fasteners before taking one to the range. The video that TREX Arms did on the JAKL was almost comical. Check every screw, every bolt, every nut , including the barrel nut before firing…

When you buy a PSA rifle, you are buying a cheap rifle. You are getting what you paid for. But, cheap =/= garbage. That word is bandied about on this forum with reckless abandon. “Anything less than a KAC is hot garbage.” Fuck a whole lot of that noise. To me cheap = “trust but verify.”

Edited to correct equality…

I agree there is zero chance they are checking stuff. They are just slapping together what they get.
However, they do own the forging company that makes the receivers.
They own the shop that makes the bolts.
They own barrel making equipment.
So under the JJE holdings they make it all, (except plastic, bolts, springs, pins,) but it’s still different shops making various parts for the assemblers.

They also are an oem for a number of other companies.

 

[Tiribulus]

PSA has made it their expressed life's mission to put AR platform weapons into the financial reach and hence into as many law abiding American hands as they can.

In order to do that, corners must be cut. By definition. They pretty much own that up front, even if not in direct words..

I don't have the numbers, but I'm betting they sell more AR... stuff, than the next few companies combined. If anything, the trending consensus is that their quality has improved over the last few years.

I don't know this, but I'm betting their business model is to move as much inventory as possible with reasonable, but minimal meticulous QC and they'll eat the resulting complaints and returns. On a mass volume basis, this makes sense as long as most of it at least works outta the box and the available evidence would indicate that it does.

Some of it needs some minor checking and tweaking. At these prices ,who cares? Once the wrinkles are worked out, even these usually run fine for quite a while. Certainly their money's worth.

The ones that actually don't work outta the box are fairly rare and if the forum testimony is any indication, many times these are brand new AR owners who don't know what they're doing or looking at yet. Somebody else might have been able to "fix" it in five minutes.

In the words of LazyEngineer at the link I posted above, who happens to be a professional career engineer with vast firearms and AR experience, "PSA is the best thing to happen to the AR community in years."

He ran that thing into the ground with detailed attention and record keeping, and when he had shot the barrel out, north of 10,000 mag dumping rounds, PSA sent him a replacement barrel.

People can think and say whatever they want. PSA doesn't pretend to be anything they're not. When you sell 10 times more of something than anybody else, the numbers dictate that you're going to get more complaints and it's human nature to yell the loudest when you fancy yourself ill used, whether you actually have been or not

Welcome to the big bad world

 

[ut755ln]

PSA has made it their expressed life's mission to put AR platform weapons into the financial reach and hence into as many law abiding American hands as they can.

In order to do that, corners must be cut. By definition. They pretty much own that up front, even if not in direct words..

100% on top of that most gun owners won't put enough rounds on a rifle (even a PSA) to reach some point of catastrophic failure. My highest round count rifle right now is a DD MK18 that is pushing 15k through it so far. I had to replace the buffer spring and the firing pin. I have swapped the muzzle devices around some but because I wanted to not that they were falling apart.

 

[WindstormSCR]

People also like to forget that in the current job market, an entry level QC inspector is close to $40/hr as actual labor costs to the company ($25-30/hr plus benefits at the employee end). And that is entry level, so none of the built up experience that would help them know what to look for.

at $400 per shipped unit, they simply cannot afford to have the level of detailed scrutiny some folks demand. this product is not for you. it is not meant to be for you. go buy a BCM or better and be very glad you can afford to do so

at even 20 minutes of inspection including the test fire, that is now 3.3% of your unit price

 

[Genesis1984]

If you remember, at the end of the last congress, there was a bill floating around to ban anything with adjustable stocks, vertical grips, etc.

I wanted a supply of cheap parts quickly to "grandfather in" just in case. I'm not complaining about the quality of their gear. It's not anything I would run on my personal rifle, but it's cheap and it works.

So your retarded ass bought a bunch of junk to flip to people and you lost. Camt say i give a fuck about your struggles with the lower echelon of rifle parts