BAD BATCH of Compass Lake spun Kriegers
- Thread starter Tangodown911
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Just to add my 2cents about cle. I had called them last year during the painic i think jan 3 or something. None of the other AR companies would respond to emails or phone calls, to busy. The lady at cle was very nice took the time to answer questions and sent me a 20" .920 krieger 8twist that shoots those cheap federal tipped varmits less than moa. And fiochi 77's 3/4" outside to outside.
Well it's been a week and a half since they got the bad barrel back and no new barrel yet. Nothing like having $600+ wrapped up in something that you don't have. I figured I would have some good news by now.
Barrels supposed to be shipped out today. Latest from Compass Lake are that the Krieger blanks are likely bad as well a possibley a burr as the cause of the issues. Through this Frank has taken nearly an hour on more than one occasion to explain the situation and provide some piece of mind +1 for them here.
I'll post further when I get the new barrel and print some groups.
Update 04-02-2014
Found out today that new barrels also failed. Apparently there is a large amount of barrels from Krieger that are bad steel. Man this sucks. I'll bet this is a LOT of barrels. Frank was spinning us up a third set of barrels this morning from a different lot from Krieger this morning.
I'll post further when I get the new barrel and print some groups.
Update 04-02-2014
Found out today that new barrels also failed. Apparently there is a large amount of barrels from Krieger that are bad steel. Man this sucks. I'll bet this is a LOT of barrels. Frank was spinning us up a third set of barrels this morning from a different lot from Krieger this morning.
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Krieger blanks were definitely the problem. We will have the new ones Monday. Frank test fired these and assured us they were good to go. We will see.
Ill report pretty soon how mine shoots. I havent had any time to shoot it since I built it up last week. From what I can see of the gas port it looks good(I dont have a bore scope) and the rest, to the naked eye, looks good as well. Clean rifling, etc... But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding.
Did you even read the thread before posting?
Compass Lake admitted that the barrels were bad. They even admitted that the replacement barrel they spun up also ended up being bad and had to spin up a second replacement barrel. Bad batch of barrel blanks from Krieger.
90% of the time vertical and horizontal stringing is the shooter behind the rifle. Let someone else shoot it and see what it does. It's in your head now that it's not shooting well.
Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute. I've been using(chambering and building with) Krieger blanks for about 20 years and I have never seen a bad one. I sent CLE 70 blanks last year in one shipment and more than half came back to me with the throats not concentric on the bore, chatter and rough chambers. I'll trust Kriegers proven quality over CLEs work any day.
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Loosened and tightened several times. Barrel nut/rail was still aligned. My friend upper was put together with a KAC urx keymod and torqued to 65 in.lb. this was KACs spec. and still no go.
uhhhh.... come again?
Look at the pictures. It's bad steel. Massive premature erosion in the steel around the gas port. Krieger looked at the pics and said the barrels looked like they had 3000+ rounds on them. So if Krieger agrees I don't know what is the issue.
If frank white himself is spinning the barrels and they are still bad then holy shit!!!!....Houston we have a problem!!!! It's bad steel you better believe it. You guys act like it doesn't happen. Especially just because its Krieger....if so then your fooling yourselves. Everyone falls victim to bad steel sooner or later.
Yes that's spec for that rail system. Not my problem it is what it is. Shame on KAC. Also not my rail.
I don't doubt what your saying about the craftsmanship because what I saw in the barrels also gave me cause for concern. I had issues about the throats and chambers too along with the obvious gas port issues. But.... the biggest issue here IS BAD STEEL. In fact I brought up the chambers and throats to Frank when I was talking to him. No didn't really have much of an explanation.
I'm guessing that, like everywhere else, the guy who made the business what it is, doesn't always do all the work anymore. I'm sure Frank isn't the one always spinning every blank. Either way there's no excuse. I'm trusting Frank that the ones coming will be right as he was the one who selected them, spun them, test fired them, and said they were good to go.
No one cares more about his business than him. So if these are wrong, meaning craftsmanship is wrong, then this tells us a lot. I would figure at this point frank is sending me his best work so we will see what we get.
I'm guessing that, like everywhere else, the guy who made the business what it is, doesn't always do all the work anymore. I'm sure Frank isn't the one always spinning every blank. Either way there's no excuse. I'm trusting Frank that the ones coming will be right as he was the one who selected them, spun them, test fired them, and said they were good to go.
No one cares more about his business than him. So if these are wrong, meaning craftsmanship is wrong, then this tells us a lot. I would figure at this point frank is sending me his best work so we will see what we get.
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Too early to tell if mine is a shooter. I hate zero'ing at a police'd range, oh and forgetting my spotting scope. Hard to see 22 holes at 4x at 100 yards.
Only put ~35 rounds through the gun: 20 Hornady TAP 75g(red box) and 15 77g SMK/23.2g 8208 XBR/LC brass/CCI 41 primer. Had basically zero vertical dispersion, but was having some horizontal, but I am NOT blaming the barrel, im blaming my shooting. I absolutely SUCK with a 4x scope at 100 yards trying to shoot for groups. Ive got a Viper PST 2.5-10x32 coming in a few weeks that will be swapped onto this gun so I will be re-zeroing and then will have a better optic to shoot groups with. So far this barrel looks promising, but like I said, I need to get some more rounds through it before I will really know. I threw the can on for the last 5 rounds and POI shifted down and left about 2" each and the group stayed decent.
I AM getting marks on every case neck during extraction though from the cases dragging the lugs. While not the end of the world, it does kind of suck because I am not 100% on reloading this brass now since these gouges appear fairly deep(my fingernail catches on them). I havent had an AR that has done this before, but I do know its a fairly common problem. Guessing the lugs will wear in and it will stop at some point.
Only put ~35 rounds through the gun: 20 Hornady TAP 75g(red box) and 15 77g SMK/23.2g 8208 XBR/LC brass/CCI 41 primer. Had basically zero vertical dispersion, but was having some horizontal, but I am NOT blaming the barrel, im blaming my shooting. I absolutely SUCK with a 4x scope at 100 yards trying to shoot for groups. Ive got a Viper PST 2.5-10x32 coming in a few weeks that will be swapped onto this gun so I will be re-zeroing and then will have a better optic to shoot groups with. So far this barrel looks promising, but like I said, I need to get some more rounds through it before I will really know. I threw the can on for the last 5 rounds and POI shifted down and left about 2" each and the group stayed decent.
I AM getting marks on every case neck during extraction though from the cases dragging the lugs. While not the end of the world, it does kind of suck because I am not 100% on reloading this brass now since these gouges appear fairly deep(my fingernail catches on them). I havent had an AR that has done this before, but I do know its a fairly common problem. Guessing the lugs will wear in and it will stop at some point.
Keep us informed. Mine would sometimes string them, then just group huge, then it would be back to stringing but it a different direction.
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You guys keep mentioning only your vertical dispersion when shooting at extended ranges (500+). I understand the less the the better but what's the significance of only that dimension when trying to determine a barrels accuracy? I hope this doesn't sound like I'm being a smart ass, I'm actually trying to learn something. Thanks
Consistent velocity?
Consistent velocity?
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FTW I got a bad barrel from Krieger about 2 years ago. Would put 3 rounds on top of each other, then start throwing them everywhere. After letting the barrel cool, it would consistently put 3 on top of each other. I did everything I could with the rifle before settling on the barrel. I sent it to Krieger and they said it was a barrel issue and replaced it for me. Excellent service from Krieger and I consider them a top company. However even the best make mistakes.
You purchased a complete ready to install barrel from Krieger? Which one and how much did it cost complete?
What does it matter what it cost? Sounds like test questions for lenno....
Perhaps lenno statements are bogus? Is this your point?
Perhaps lenno statements are bogus? Is this your point?
It was a valid question since i dont think krieger turns AR barrels. However they do turn M14 barrels and thats what this one was. They send them out contoured, cuts for the gas cylinder and castle nut, and short chambered. I never heard what the issue was, but not likely a steel problem. When you go from MOA or better to 3 MOA with only a slight temperature change and do it repeatedly, something is wrong. The replacement they sent is a shooter though and holds MOA even on long strings.
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Actually it looks like you can get them from krieger:
DCM & AR-15
ETA: Nevermind, these are unchambered.
DCM & AR-15
ETA: Nevermind, these are unchambered.
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Stainless barrels are not hardened, they are apx 30 rockwell. It's not likely a barrel wasn't hardened and eroded prematurely because of it. Stainless barrels erode at the as port fairly quick unlike 4150 barrels that have been melonite treated. Krieger when selling blanks to smiths do not chamber or crown the barrels. That's the smiths job, if it's wrong it's their fault. Unless it is a DCM barrel If there is a burr at the gas port it's the smiths fault. If a smith re-contours the barrel, it's also their job to stress relief the barrel after it is turned. If the barrel strings shots from heat it is due to lack of stress relief in the barrel or in a wood stocked rifle it may be touching somewhere or not cooling evenly because the stock is very close on one side and holding heat on the one side of the barrel.
He says it looks like an eroded port after 3000 shots but you only put what, 100 through it? Does that sound odd to you, it does to me? That's why I said borescope the "new" barrel when you get it back. I've been buying blanks from Krieger for a long time. I call the bin numbers in then they inspect the barrels again before they ship. They call back to let me know if they are all okay or if there were any issues where the barrels needed to be shortened to remove a bad spot. I spin test every barrel to make sure it's straight before chambering them. In over 20 years I have never seen a Krieger or Broughton with a bow in it (not that I have used Broughton that long). I've seen almost every other brand with a bow.
There's just some odd things about this. As long as you get a good one in the end it shouldn't matter, too bad it wasn't right to begin with.
He says it looks like an eroded port after 3000 shots but you only put what, 100 through it? Does that sound odd to you, it does to me? That's why I said borescope the "new" barrel when you get it back. I've been buying blanks from Krieger for a long time. I call the bin numbers in then they inspect the barrels again before they ship. They call back to let me know if they are all okay or if there were any issues where the barrels needed to be shortened to remove a bad spot. I spin test every barrel to make sure it's straight before chambering them. In over 20 years I have never seen a Krieger or Broughton with a bow in it (not that I have used Broughton that long). I've seen almost every other brand with a bow.
There's just some odd things about this. As long as you get a good one in the end it shouldn't matter, too bad it wasn't right to begin with.
[MENTION=16678]bustin[/MENTION] - Word...
Any deficiency in the 416 would've manifest itself during the gun drilling process. Krieger has way to much to lose sending out bad blanks. If there was a conversation with anyone at Krieger, I'd argue that they were giving cover for CLE who by all accounts does a large amount of business with them.
Any deficiency in the 416 would've manifest itself during the gun drilling process. Krieger has way to much to lose sending out bad blanks. If there was a conversation with anyone at Krieger, I'd argue that they were giving cover for CLE who by all accounts does a large amount of business with them.
And this is one part of the gun industry that pisses me off. Everything is a secret. Nobody will admit to fucking something up or letting fucked up parts pass QC checks.
I remember the Bill Springfield incident a few years ago where every trigger he worked was coming back all sorts of fucked up, but he wouldnt take responsibility. Ultimately they admitted he had a mini-stroke or something along those lines(if I am remembering the story right), but nobody noticed it or realized what was up. He is now back to putting out good products(from what I understand) after taking some time off to recover.
If people would just come out and say "yup XXXXXX was fucked up, our fault, suppliers fault, whoevers fault. This is how we fixed it" they would squash internet rumors and hearsay in a heart beat. But nobody admits to anything.
Its the same with where I work in union and company squabbles. A rumor gets out that such and such screwed the pooch, but nobody will come out and say what really happened and the rumor spreads and spreads and gets out of control until the point that somebody official has to come out and damage control, but its so far gone at that point nobody even believes the official answer. Oh wait, our government sounds like that too.
I remember the Bill Springfield incident a few years ago where every trigger he worked was coming back all sorts of fucked up, but he wouldnt take responsibility. Ultimately they admitted he had a mini-stroke or something along those lines(if I am remembering the story right), but nobody noticed it or realized what was up. He is now back to putting out good products(from what I understand) after taking some time off to recover.
If people would just come out and say "yup XXXXXX was fucked up, our fault, suppliers fault, whoevers fault. This is how we fixed it" they would squash internet rumors and hearsay in a heart beat. But nobody admits to anything.
Its the same with where I work in union and company squabbles. A rumor gets out that such and such screwed the pooch, but nobody will come out and say what really happened and the rumor spreads and spreads and gets out of control until the point that somebody official has to come out and damage control, but its so far gone at that point nobody even believes the official answer. Oh wait, our government sounds like that too.
Wait, don't tell me that you think we should all be able to find out who really makes the various components in our AR 15s. Those rollmarks cost $$$
Well got the barrels today.
Barrel 1- put 30 rounds though it. Best groups was roughly 1.3" but most were 1.6"-2.0". Same garbage. Shoots groups then strings then groups again. The more we shot it the worse it shot. We let it cool shooting no more than 15 rounds between cooling periods. What a WASTE OF TIME! Gas showed erosion when we got them with 47 rounds on them from compass lakes test firing. After 30 more it showed a change in the gas port...more erosion and a shit ton of coppering from the gas port to the muzzle.
Different shooters different ammo. Something is terribly wrong here. Now I'm pist. I'm tired of wasting time and ammo messing with shit that don't shoot. I am quite confused with all of this. I will be contacting compass lake in the morning.
What is really the problem......who knows.
Barrel 1- put 30 rounds though it. Best groups was roughly 1.3" but most were 1.6"-2.0". Same garbage. Shoots groups then strings then groups again. The more we shot it the worse it shot. We let it cool shooting no more than 15 rounds between cooling periods. What a WASTE OF TIME! Gas showed erosion when we got them with 47 rounds on them from compass lakes test firing. After 30 more it showed a change in the gas port...more erosion and a shit ton of coppering from the gas port to the muzzle.
Different shooters different ammo. Something is terribly wrong here. Now I'm pist. I'm tired of wasting time and ammo messing with shit that don't shoot. I am quite confused with all of this. I will be contacting compass lake in the morning.
What is really the problem......who knows.
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Wait, don't tell me that you think we should all be able to find out who really makes the various components in our AR 15s. Those rollmarks cost $$$
nope, not at all. Dont care about parts kits in AR's. Ive built guns with parts from just about everybody. I think they are all still functioning. Ive built 15-20 with parts from Palmetto State including my SBR and SPR(have a giessele SSA-E in it, but otherwise 100% PSA parts).
Ive got about 85 rounds loaded right now I will try to go shoot tomorrow if the weather gets better. That will put my barrel right at 120 rounds so I would say I would be showing signs of a bad barrel by then. Wish I had a bore scope.
ETA: Just to be clear, and I just realized this after re-reading the thread, you have a 7.7 twist barrel and I have a 7 twist. Dont know if it matters, but I am thinking it might. Different batches of blanks from Krieger for sure since we dont have the same twist.
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I don't visit here often but just came across this thread. I had (have) the same problem with the identical barrel. I purchased mine maybe 2-3 years ago. Maybe more- I would have to check. The barrel would not shoot. I called CLE and they told me to use JB bore cleaner. I did-many times. It would not shoot. I changed muzzle attachements, scopes and ammo. Nothing. I sent the whole upper back and they but another barrel on which they said they tested and it was terrible too. I have cheapo barrels that outshoot it. I finally gave up and it still is just sitting around. I am totally disgusted with the whole deal. I have other Krieger that shoot fantastic. They all came direct from Krieger though.
I'm already up to my neck in this one so I'll wade a little deeper. A barrel that groups well for 3 shots and then changes may be okay, it could be something else. If it groups 3 well that tells me the crown is okay also that the chamber is okay, the crown can't change shot to shot any more than the chamber can. Something is loose or the heat is effecting the barrel or receiver since the receiver is what connects the scope to the barrel. I would either use a Mega or Vltor receiver that fits tight to the extension or square the front of the receiver you have and then bed the extension in the receiver with blue loctite. Torque the barrel nut to 38lbs minimum and then to the next hole to align. Be sure the gas tube does not press on either side of the barrel nut notches or holes. I've seen this next one done so don't take offense. Do not mount 1 scope mount on the receiver and 1 on the handguard. Make sure the mounts and rings are torqued correctly.
1 thing you may not be able to check is torque of the barrel extension on the barrel. I use an impact wrench at 150lbs to make sure they are tight. You can't change it after the gas port is drilled.
Last...sure you didn't get the same barrel back?
As for Krieger barrels. I've used the DCMs for years. A few years ago I chambered a 5.56x42(6.8 necked down to .224) for Jason Peterson. He's shooting under 5" groups at 1000 yards out of a 20" AR using 80gr Amaxs. In the same chambering I've shot groups at 100yds as small as .170". 69gr SMKs(24gr RE15) out of a 223 Wylde normally hit 1/2 MOA easy.
1 thing you may not be able to check is torque of the barrel extension on the barrel. I use an impact wrench at 150lbs to make sure they are tight. You can't change it after the gas port is drilled.
Last...sure you didn't get the same barrel back?
As for Krieger barrels. I've used the DCMs for years. A few years ago I chambered a 5.56x42(6.8 necked down to .224) for Jason Peterson. He's shooting under 5" groups at 1000 yards out of a 20" AR using 80gr Amaxs. In the same chambering I've shot groups at 100yds as small as .170". 69gr SMKs(24gr RE15) out of a 223 Wylde normally hit 1/2 MOA easy.
This thread is a source of considerable considerable interest for me. I've been giving it a lot of thought, and I have a theory.
The gas port erosion photos above are 100% typical of the early erosion downstream of the gas port in a new stainless barrel. Yep, that's unfortunately what they all seem to look like. With continued shooting - and cleaning - this erosion becomes more - eroded! - and more smoothly contoured.
I've broken in a lot of AR' barrels. I've made myself literally nauseous peeking inside barrels with a borescope for countless hours. I've noticed a two parallel trends:
1. A new high end, premium barrel will shoot considerably sub-MOA the first group on paper at 100 yards. The gas port is newly cut, with crisp edges. Awesome! Shooter/builder congratulates self, goes home, and has a beer.
2. After the first few groups, accuracy falls off. Multiple cleaning will not restore the accuracy. Frustration builds. Ammo, scope, scope mount, cleaning techniques, suppressor and suppressor mount, trigger, and (mostly) self are all roundly cursed. The gas port erosion has begun, usually with a big chunk of steel crudely evacuating downstream of the port, just exactly like shown in the photos. Frustrated, the shooter goes home and has a beer. Maybe more than one.
3. After more shooting (and more cleaning), maybe 100-200 rounds, the accuracy mysteriously returns. The gas port erosion has progressed to the point that the rough contours have abated. The heavy copper fouling downstream of the gas port lessens. Shooter congratulates self, goes home, has a beer, and doesn't contemplate what really has happened.
I love KG Industries cleaning products. KG-2 is a great cleaning product for a new barrel or an extremely copper fouled barrel. It's a 1200 grit, non-imbedding polish. If I'm going to knock any rough edges off a gas port - or clean up the tool marks in a new throat - it's a lot faster and less expensive to do it with KG-2 on VFG felt pellets than shooting SMK's down the barrel. Or Tubb Final Finish bullets.
KG-2: KG-2 Bore Polish: Metal Protective Coating | Firearm Lubricants | Industrial Coatings
VFG felt pellets: WEAPONS CARE SYSTEM PELLETS | Brownells
BTW, I'd love a brief tutorial on how maggitas was able to take such good photos through a borescope.
The gas port erosion photos above are 100% typical of the early erosion downstream of the gas port in a new stainless barrel. Yep, that's unfortunately what they all seem to look like. With continued shooting - and cleaning - this erosion becomes more - eroded! - and more smoothly contoured.
I've broken in a lot of AR' barrels. I've made myself literally nauseous peeking inside barrels with a borescope for countless hours. I've noticed a two parallel trends:
1. A new high end, premium barrel will shoot considerably sub-MOA the first group on paper at 100 yards. The gas port is newly cut, with crisp edges. Awesome! Shooter/builder congratulates self, goes home, and has a beer.
2. After the first few groups, accuracy falls off. Multiple cleaning will not restore the accuracy. Frustration builds. Ammo, scope, scope mount, cleaning techniques, suppressor and suppressor mount, trigger, and (mostly) self are all roundly cursed. The gas port erosion has begun, usually with a big chunk of steel crudely evacuating downstream of the port, just exactly like shown in the photos. Frustrated, the shooter goes home and has a beer. Maybe more than one.
3. After more shooting (and more cleaning), maybe 100-200 rounds, the accuracy mysteriously returns. The gas port erosion has progressed to the point that the rough contours have abated. The heavy copper fouling downstream of the gas port lessens. Shooter congratulates self, goes home, has a beer, and doesn't contemplate what really has happened.
I love KG Industries cleaning products. KG-2 is a great cleaning product for a new barrel or an extremely copper fouled barrel. It's a 1200 grit, non-imbedding polish. If I'm going to knock any rough edges off a gas port - or clean up the tool marks in a new throat - it's a lot faster and less expensive to do it with KG-2 on VFG felt pellets than shooting SMK's down the barrel. Or Tubb Final Finish bullets.
KG-2: KG-2 Bore Polish: Metal Protective Coating | Firearm Lubricants | Industrial Coatings
VFG felt pellets: WEAPONS CARE SYSTEM PELLETS | Brownells
BTW, I'd love a brief tutorial on how maggitas was able to take such good photos through a borescope.
It would seem to me that if you are getting extreme gas port erosion due to poor material, your throat would be completely gone as well. If it was just extra brittle material and it chipped during the drilling process, krieger would not have been able to gun drill and rifle it properly, and Frank probably wouldnt have been able to chamber it without chipping the rifling at the throat.
If it were me, Id try a different upper receiver, torque the barrel to 60-70 ft-lbs, change rings and scope, and try it again. I just dont see how a barrel can make it this far without having noticeable issues during at least some part of the machining process.
If it were me, Id try a different upper receiver, torque the barrel to 60-70 ft-lbs, change rings and scope, and try it again. I just dont see how a barrel can make it this far without having noticeable issues during at least some part of the machining process.
Wes,
We took the photos and sent them to Maggitas so he could post for us. Yes we have a few nice toys
Made contact with Compass Lake. We agreed to return the barrels for a full refund. I'm glad to see they made it right in that aspect at least.
Now the hunt is on for another barrel.
Now the hunt is on for another barrel.
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Perhaps I can help. I have 15X Lilja Precision SS 1x8 three groove barrels in our MSTN SPR Mk 12 Mod 2 profile on order.
M4 feed ramps
Wylde chamber
CNC contoured
Rifle length gas system
1.000" gas block seat with flat milled on bottom for any gas block set screw spacing
Barrel shoulder for Ops-Inc barrel collar, set back an extra 0.250" to allow for full thread engagement of suppressor on muzzle device
39 ounces
I'll also be able to provide LMT bolts (shot peened, proof round tested, MP-inspected, Ionbond Diamondblack coated down to the gas rings) fitted at minimum chamber dimension for best accuracy.
Or build the whole thing!
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