- Thread starter Frank Green
- Start date
Sorta already exists?
FinalFinish® & FinalFinish® TMS Bullet Kits
By using David Tubb's FinalFinish & FinalFinish TMS Bullet Kits, you will experience better accuracy, reduced fouling and easier barrel clean up.
www.davidtubb.com Did you ever use them ? How many does it take ? Which one do you use last to leave a little rust protection in the bore ?Sorta already exists?
FinalFinish® & FinalFinish® TMS Bullet Kits
By using David Tubb's FinalFinish & FinalFinish TMS Bullet Kits, you will experience better accuracy, reduced fouling and easier barrel clean up.
PS I have experience with them , and can tell you you are full of shit if you think they "Clean" a barrel .
Do you use this?Sorta already exists?
FinalFinish® & FinalFinish® TMS Bullet Kits
By using David Tubb's FinalFinish & FinalFinish TMS Bullet Kits, you will experience better accuracy, reduced fouling and easier barrel clean up.
Never used it, just wanted to throw it into the conversation since it’s sorta what he mentioned
I was joking for sure. Final finish doesn't clean anything it's an abrasive.
I currently have 6CM, 6.5 CM, 6.5 GT, 6.5 PRC, and .308
I have gone through 6 creed and 6 GT and I really can’t say how much longer they last as I don’t think any of them have ever really gone out. I do know how far they go though. I’ve got a 6 creed with 2500 on it and no issues, 6 GTs have gone past 4K on a few barrels. The main thing I notice right off the bat is the break in. I don’t notice the speed up as much and the cleaning is much faster
Well, why did you replace the barrel then if they didn't go out? Did they start opening up? One of my questions (and I have a few of these barrels too) is how many "good shots" vs a normal steel barrel? Do they start opening up slower? I guess they must open up slower which is why they last longer but if you've shot through a few of them, what made you decide to change them out? Did you go back with another BB barrel or did you go back with a reg SS one?
Thanks,
I shoot a lot and put so much into all these matches and classes I don’t want the surprise. To be honest I felt wrong pushing the 6GT to 4300. I shoot for G.A Precision and I pulled it off after the match in the parking lot to give to George. I finished well with it and it never lost speed or accuracy. I feel like shooting till they actually go out isn’t smart as much as matches cost.
Yeah I get that totally. 4300 is a strong count. So let me ask this, when did you typically pull reg SS 6gt barrels ?
3000ish I started with 2000-2500 and after a few did it I kept creeping up. But I’d be lying to say I wasn’t scared. I have come to the belief than most people don’t really burn barrels out like they think and if they are it must be due to a cleaning technique or something as well. I’ve got over 20 spent barrels under my bench that saw a lot of use and I don’t think any of them really went out like some talk about
Thank you for the info. I have noticed the BB cleaning easier also. I don't have enough rounds on my BB 6cm to know yet so I appreciate your info.
At this point, I think it's safe to say that the BB barrels are "worth it". Anywhere from 30% up to 70% more quality shots seems to be what to expect from a BB steel barrel. Some have questioned the real world increase in good shots, but there's enough feedback now to say that those numbers are to be expected.
We’ve heard that pretty consistently. We couldn’t have planned on the barrels cleaning easier or fouling less and cleaning easier. It’s just a bonus we couldn’t have planned for.
later, Frank
Also the less barrels you buy that also brings into saving money on gunsmithing costs as well.
The longer the gun/barrel stays in tune by lasting longer the less you chase it the more of a piece of mind you have as well.
That's where the cost savings really is. The total cost of a Reg-SS chambered barrel vs the total cost of a chambered BB barrel , the BB barrel only has to get 25% more rounds to be worth it. I think it's a given at this point that you will get a good bit more than that, and probably quite a bit more than that, in the range of 70%-100% or more depending on cleaning , the round itself, and how it's shot and loaded.
Just curious I guess.... what exactly are you wanting to talk to frank about concerning this?
Is Frank not on of the guys at Bartlien barrels? If not I’ve spoke out of turn. I’ve got a barrel that’s a little worn out long Before the 2k round count. It maybe me doing it but I’d like to talk.
Yes he is, that's correct. So you are saying that the measurement to the lands has grown a bit? I'm sure frank will talk to you and see what's going on. Probably just a busy day being Monday and all. I'd give em a call tomorrow and maybe shoot him a PM on here. He isn't on here a ton but he is semi regular and my experience had always been excellent with him.
Short handed in the office yesterday. About a month ago we just got back to full staff.
Send me your phone number to [email protected] and we will give you a call.
Later, Frank
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So far all the things we've seen has been barrel life has been better/longer.
Always some exception to the rule though....
Can you still wreck the barrel? You dam right you can! Just last month or so ago one of the guys here was gone out West with some friends. While out shooting one of the guys was shooting a 6.5CM (not a worker here) shot the gun all day long....no break, barrel so frickin hot and over 500 rounds on it with out cleaning. Seen similar things with a 6CM...over 500 rounds in a day and no rest and no cleaning. The guy looks at us and says it's not shooting good anymore. What do you think? Really! Killing me smalls! Killing me!
Had guys shooting 6.5PRC a couple to a few hundred rounds with no cleaning. Call and says it doesn't shoot good anymore. Sends the barrel in and says the throat is worn/all heat checked. Said nope....that's carbon fouling and you need to clean it good. Cleaned it good and it went right back to shooting.
Just because the material is slightly different doesn't mean 0 maintenance.
Always some exception to the rule though....
Can you still wreck the barrel? You dam right you can! Just last month or so ago one of the guys here was gone out West with some friends. While out shooting one of the guys was shooting a 6.5CM (not a worker here) shot the gun all day long....no break, barrel so frickin hot and over 500 rounds on it with out cleaning. Seen similar things with a 6CM...over 500 rounds in a day and no rest and no cleaning. The guy looks at us and says it's not shooting good anymore. What do you think? Really! Killing me smalls! Killing me!
Had guys shooting 6.5PRC a couple to a few hundred rounds with no cleaning. Call and says it doesn't shoot good anymore. Sends the barrel in and says the throat is worn/all heat checked. Said nope....that's carbon fouling and you need to clean it good. Cleaned it good and it went right back to shooting.
Just because the material is slightly different doesn't mean 0 maintenance.
When you call....
What caliber?
How are you measuring it and with what are you measuring the wear with?
Loads info.?
Rate of fire?
Etc....
If your using a bullet/ogive comparator....are you using the same bullet you started with when the barrel was brand new? Not bullets from the same box or lot but the original bullet you measured with? If not that can give you a false reading as well. I've seen bullets from one lot to another lot measure .0005" different on the body diameter as well as the length from base to ogive measure differently. If you grabbed a different bullet....your not comparing apples to apples.
I hear you saying youre working on a zero maintenance barrel
.And if it requires any maintenance at all, @Frank Green will have some 'splaining to do...I hear you saying youre working on a zero maintenance barrel
The world demands results!
I'm running a 400M barrel on my 22CM, 1-7" @18" . It's getting 3100fps with 90 Atips. It gained 90fps after 200 rounds.
Easiest barrel to keep clean I've ever shot.....and one of the most accurate.
I'll be replacing everything with these as needed.....
Easiest barrel to keep clean I've ever shot.....and one of the most accurate.
I'll be replacing everything with these as needed.....
Sounds like he had a better night than most of us !How do you think 4Chevy24 felt this morning when he woke up from his drunk postings last night? He was probably at Texas Roadhouse throwing peanut shells on the floor when he was typing that shit
I assume you are talking about the ModBB steel barrel right?
Do you have any others that you've got more rounds on? I have about 700 on my 6cm right now and it sure looks good and shoots fantastic. I have another blank ready to send to @Bugholes when the time is right, that I bought from a guy on here. There's starting to become a decent amount of reports now that these barrels are worth the extra $200.00 so I can't imagine ever getting anything else if we are talking SS barrel.
Good to know, more dogs killed per barrel!
Another GAP hammer...
well I did not throw peanut shells on the floor they dont have them any more in our area... LOL. and FYI Frank Green and I discussed the barrel life and came up with a slight solution. So F off! KEYBOARD WARRIOR...How do you think 4Chevy24 felt this morning when he woke up from his drunk postings last night? He was probably at Texas Roadhouse throwing peanut shells on the floor when he was typing that shit
What products and proceans do you recommend for a barrel with a bunch of carbon?
Boretech products are pretty good and won’t eat your hands, face, or lungs. Also, never let carbon fouling get out of hand again once you get it out. Cleaning out hard carbon rings is no joke not fun even with the best products.
I guess Im liquored up... I called. and If I didnt explain with a PR response that I wasnt calling Bartlien or Frank out in any way shortly after I mouthed off. I guess maybe third grade reading escaped you. Read all the comments first.... Now back to to popcorn and Crown. Gotta stay liquored up to comment again. Happy Thanksgiving!
I'm going to put this here in case someone later is confused. Frank was very polite in how he addressed this above. Kudos to him. I have no business ties to this industry, so while I am not trying to be an ass, I am going to lay out my and others experience to clear up what think I read. I'm not going to worry about treading lightly. I'm just going to bluntly lay it out there.
It sounded like the gripe was that the distance to the lands moved over 600 rounds and the customer felt that this was unacceptable. This is COMPLETELY NORMAL ANNNND UNAVOIDABLE with the materials used currently in precision rifle barrels.
It is normal for the length to the lands to grow between .002 and .010 per 100 rounds depending on cartridge,caliber, powder, and pressure. This is in standard 416 stainless barrels. The ModBB barrels likely do a little better, but the distance to the lands will still change as the barrel wears.
As Frank so politely eluded to, there are few ways to measure the change accurately and many ways to screw it up. Many people think they shoot thousands of rounds and their throat never moves. (Carbon buildup) I can assure you that this is not the case. Consistent measurements require the exact same bullet, an accurate round count, and a good method of measuring. Most people (including me) are not worth a shit with the Hornady tool.
I have measured after cleaning with several calibers and barrels. The cleaning technique was checked with a borescope. I have never had even a .223 that didn't grow over the course of 200 rounds. Over the entire life of a consistently cleaned and measured throat the growth is pretty consistent.
The increase in barrel life from ModBB is an increase in the number of rounds the barrel will last and still shoot with acceptable accuracy. By the time a barrel loses accuracy the distance to the lands will have grown significantly.
Also, distance to the lands is irrelevant accept as a fun project to track barrel wear. Nothing caused me more problems with load workup than chasing the lands as the barrel wore. A concentric chamber will shoot a good load for a lot of wear. Chasing the lands will just mess it up. Find a load and shoot it until it doesn't shoot well anymore.
Hopefully this clears up any confusion on what is normal wear and change as a barrel wears. MODBB is better, but it is not magic.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers, but I do not want new shooters to be lead astray and think that something totally normal is a flaw from the manufacturer.
I want to thank Frank as he was absolutely wonderful to deal with and will deal with him again as I did purchase another barrel to replace the one I burned up. After a 20-30 min convocation with Frank we both determined that originally I started with a much hotter round than the barrel or any barrel was designed for. We had a .218 bore barrel and the caliber I was using it for calls for a .219. We went through load data so he knew what I was dealing with. With that said. Am I upset. Yes. Should I have called him out of SH no. And I apologize for that. Back story….We bought three barrels in sequence of serial numbers. The other two are still within a small minute throat erosion unlike mine. I did not buy this barrel or caliber to be nice to it. I learned you have to be smart with it though.
Thanks Frank I am sorry for any confusion heartaches and pains. You were absolutely cordial on the phone and you didn’t have to be. Happy thanksgiving!
Thanks Frank I am sorry for any confusion heartaches and pains. You were absolutely cordial on the phone and you didn’t have to be. Happy thanksgiving!
Well hey, that takes some guts to stand up and publically apologize! Good on yuh!
A couple of thoughts/things to consider. You probably have noticed many here have gotten pretty defensive. Frank is an invaluable resource and is generous with his time here so we don't want that getting messed up. 99% of the time an issue w/a Bartlein is going to be someone after the fact screwed something up. Getting pissy about it on a public forum especially when it's most likely in the 99% is not a good idea.
Now to the time to get a hold of someone. I've worked in higher technical/customer support in a past life and I will advise that if you have an issue to be resolved and especially if you may need some extra help/attention. DO NOT CALL ON MONDAY! Tuesday or better yet Wednesday or Thursday will get you a much better chance of getting the best help. Every other idiot that did something stupid over the weekend or someone decided on a new project is calling in on Monday. The other lines are lit up and inbox is full so it's difficult to give extra time even if you want to. Think about what the other side of the call is dealing with and plan accordingly. And if your issue can be handled by one of the other excellent techs let them do it instead of asking the owner/originator/expert of the company to stop everything. And, allow for a call back on their timetable so it's not so pressed on timing.
Now to the time to get a hold of someone. I've worked in higher technical/customer support in a past life and I will advise that if you have an issue to be resolved and especially if you may need some extra help/attention. DO NOT CALL ON MONDAY! Tuesday or better yet Wednesday or Thursday will get you a much better chance of getting the best help. Every other idiot that did something stupid over the weekend or someone decided on a new project is calling in on Monday. The other lines are lit up and inbox is full so it's difficult to give extra time even if you want to. Think about what the other side of the call is dealing with and plan accordingly. And if your issue can be handled by one of the other excellent techs let them do it instead of asking the owner/originator/expert of the company to stop everything. And, allow for a call back on their timetable so it's not so pressed on timing.
My 6 Dasher went 1840ish rounds before I pulled it. I was at the King of Coal Canyon PRS match last weekend and it started to double group 3.5” apart with an ES of 86. This was luckily on sight in day. Checked torque on everything and nothing fixed the grouping issue.
Luckily I brought another Bartlein MOD400BB barrel with me that was just chambered. Groups went back down to 1/4” with an ES of 3 once we got the new barrel on.
The old barrel spent 99% of its life shooting 109 bergers at 2805 with IMR4166.
The new barrel is using the same bullet, but with RL15.5 at 2850.
Luckily I brought another Bartlein MOD400BB barrel with me that was just chambered. Groups went back down to 1/4” with an ES of 3 once we got the new barrel on.
The old barrel spent 99% of its life shooting 109 bergers at 2805 with IMR4166.
The new barrel is using the same bullet, but with RL15.5 at 2850.
Attachments
Correct. I had 2 spare MODBB barrels waiting once this old one went out
Hmmm. Did you look in the bore and see if maybe carbon ring or something was an issue? Seems like about a "normal " round count for a normal barrel without excessive speed. Just curious about this is all. I have several of them myself
Did you clean it? Have you bore scoped it since pulling it? Most dashers will go well over 2000rounds, I would think a mod400 one would be upwards of past 3500.
I would think at least 2500 good rounds with great groups for the modBB
No carbon ring, I strip all carbon and copper after every match a verify with a bore scope.
I was having to use 34.1 grains of RL15.5 to get 2900 fps in the old barrel (3000 fps in the new
Barrel). The new barrel needs a 32.2 to achieve 2900, but I’m currently running it at 2860 ish with 31.7 grains of 15.5.
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No carbon ring, I strip all carbon and copper after every match a verify with a bore scope.
I was having to use 34.1 grains of RL15.5 to get 2900 fps in the old barrel (3000 in the new
Barrel). The new barrel needs a 32.2 to achieve 2900, but I’m currently running it at 2860 ish with 31.7 grains of 15.5.
