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Gunsmithing Bedding compounds

R

rojkoh

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 8, 2012
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Right Coast
Folks,

going to be doing some stress testing of the following compounds. Please remind me to post the results:

Marine Tex
ACRAGLAS
ACRABED
ACRA-20
STEELBED
ACRAGEL
Devcon putty
Devcon liquid
Devon Aluminum
Devon Titanium

I'll update as needed.

 
Re: Bedding compounds

Interesting.... How about some JB Weld, as well? Seems to be fairly common.

How are you performing the test (I'm assuming a tension test?) and what will you be measuring?
 
Re: Bedding compounds

+1 for Devcon, mixes well, sets up well and is easy to work with
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Rather than tension, compression and shear strengths would be the most relevent to this application.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface? That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal from & reinatallation into the stock.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Not a tension test, a strength test (in one case impact). Originally done by Brownells 30+ years ago, we're going to make it a touch more scientific.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

I used Devcon on M14s, don't like it, I hate Fenwall; but in this case I have both the Putty and liquid. Haven't used the liquid yet, and I am curious. ACRAGLAS stands up better in the M1As. I've used it since 75 and still prefer it. My Devine went 2 and 1/2 barrels without any touch ups on the original bedding.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Question is, what kind of rifle? Bolt rifles don't take the abuse of semi-auto's. My preferences (to work on) are Garands and M14 types. But thanks, I'll see what I can do.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Devcon plastic steel... </div></div>

Have both Steel putty and Liquid. I don't care for the putty, but I am curious about the Liquid since I do prefer more fluid bedding compounds. If you know how to properly dam bedding compounds, you'd be shocked at how nice the non-putty compounds do and again, ACRAGLAS is tough enough for semi-auto pounding. Yes, I'm aware of almost everything else.. but.. I'm a gas gun guy (except a good bolt rifle)... I need something that can stand up to the abuse and I've never been let down in almost 40 years. But we'll see how well these compounds do with some serious abuse.

PS in a pinch Play dough works really nicely when you can't get clay fast enough. Just add a touch of release compound. It always worked for me well I needed to "cheat"
wink.gif
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks,

going to be doing some stress testing of the following compounds for a company. Please remind me to post the results:

Devcon (putty and liquid)
Marine Tex
ACRAGLAS
ACRABED
ACRA-20
STEELBED
ACRAGEL

and whatever else comes to mind. Nope, no Fenwall, I don't like it.
</div></div>

OK guys, much appreciated. This will happen "around" the holidays. Than I have to deal with a website (I hate websites) so I can post the results after I send them into someone I'm doing this for.

But suggestions have been greatly appreciated. I'll do what I can about it.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

OK, just added Devcon Aluminum and Titanium... but won't be able to get JB Weld in time. Sorry.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

I don't know if it is still available but Bisonite was a popular bedding compound used to bed M14's and Garands years ago.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAGUA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know if it is still available but Bisonite was a popular bedding compound used to bed M14's and Garands years ago. </div></div>

Thanks, I do remember it, and I checked, sorry but no way to get it in the timeline with the holidays. I just go a package sent 3 weeks ago. Kind of like to wrap this one up by the end of the year. If I do it again next year, that's another story.

But I also like Marine Tex and I do use it on Bolt rifles since McMillan talked me into trying it. I just am not comfortable with it on the gas guns (yet). I'll try it, but... to many disappointment's with the putty compounds. Haven't had a chance to try Steel Bed yet.. but I will. I really prefer to have bedding last when it's done, and yes I clean my rifles.
wink.gif

 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UNCIVILIZED</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface? That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal from & reinatallation into the stock. </div></div>

Well can't go that far unless someone wants to send me a rifle they don't care about.
wink.gif


(sorry couldn't resist that one)

But I'll be doing a lot of impact and stress tests in normal, freezing and HOT temps.


I already know about how many times you can take a rifle out of the stock and ALWAYS check zero when you do... I do and have for almost 40 years now. AS I've noted, I did my first M1A with ACRAGLAS and that one lasted 2 and 1/2 barrels without touching it up. You can bet I did not leave the rifle in the stock all that time. But with an M1A (or the Devine's) you could put the bolt out and it's easy to drop the gas piston out for cleaning, but given that I was living in SoCal at the time, I did take it out of the stock every 3-6 months to check and clean it; depending on how much it was getting used.

One note on this one, I was taught on the M14 NM.. which meant we turned the rifle over and undid the trigger guard, eased out the trigger group and then tapped the butt on a padded surface to let the action ease itself out of the bedding. It works nicely and doesn't do any "trauma" to the bedding. Only bad one was someone that didn't understand "release" compound... getting that one out of the stock as a headache and cost him the stock.

Solvent resistance is interesting... run with that one and let's see what we can come up with. i.e. which solvents?
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UNCIVILIZED</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface? That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal from & reinatallation into the stock. </div></div>

Guys, this is a heck of a good idea, anyone have any suggestions of what solvents they want to try? I have Hoppes, Ed's Red, GI bore cleaner (very rare), damn have to see list all I have in the shop... but I can add: mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, or most common stuff, depending. But please understand I am not going to go out and get anything weird or difficult. I have to come up with the molds this week and next week I start casting the test blocks. Back by the end of the week.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UNCIVILIZED</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface? That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal from & reinatallation into the stock. </div></div>

Guys, this is a heck of a good idea, anyone have any suggestions of what solvents they want to try? I have Hoppes, Ed's Red, GI bore cleaner (very rare), damn have to see list all I have in the shop... but I can add: mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, or most common stuff, depending. But please understand I am not going to go out and get anything weird or difficult. I have to come up with the molds this week and next week I start casting the test blocks. Back by the end of the week. </div></div>


For solvents Shooters choice and Sweets or something containing ammonia is commonly used. CLP is common and some people go nuts with it.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Dont forget to add in these kits

Miles Gilbert Bedrock Glass Bedding Kit (I have used this on a couple of rifles and I really like it), and

MatchGrade Bedding Compound (by Terminal Ballistics Research)
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Thanks, I'll see what I can work in. We're adding shear tests and right now I just have to get around to molding blocks for testing. No... no doing with with rifles unless someone wants to volunteer theirs!
wink.gif


May try it with an old '03... but that's for the future. This rifle seems to be weather resistant over the years.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boomer8404</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont forget to add in these kits

Miles Gilbert Bedrock Glass Bedding Kit (I have used this on a couple of rifles and I really like it), and

MatchGrade Bedding Compound (by Terminal Ballistics Research) </div></div>

Sorry but maybe next time, I'm getting ready to mold the blocks I'll be using for testing. I'd have no problem doing more next year, simple have run out of time for gathering bedding compounds.

Please feel free to remind me next year. It's not hard to do, just time consuming.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Most any two part epoxy will have a compressive strength of ~ 20kpsi.

Rather than get a gallon of cheap stuff from Home Depot, I buy expensive Devcon steel putty from Brownells, so I don't have to fight time or gravity.

In any test, watch out for out of control variables:

Two part epoxy must be 1) fresh and it must be 2) mixed warm.
There is nothing worse that having to dig out soft epoxy from down in holes.

If there is any question about freshness, mix 1 cc and wait for hit to harden.
Put dates on epoxy containers.
Boeing uses a huge amount of Devcon in tooling. They put expiration dates on containers.

Don't store epoxy in a cold shop and then mix it.
Bring it in the house overnight before mixing.

Some fast epoxies, [like Putty-Cote for stock painting prep], stink too much to mix in the house. Mix while walking out the door.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

I heard somewhere that an epoxy made for boilers works good to. It has the ability to deal with the huge range of temperatures. Don't recall what it was called.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

So far, in all the research I have done, the absolute top shelf stuff is Devcon Titanium. I know of a couple high end smiths that use it. The $100/lb is a kick to the wallet, but if you want the best....However, the thousands of rifles out there with their Plastic Steel, MarineTex, and even good ole JB Weld, aren't really complaining. Properly doing the bedding is as important as the compound used. Not to mention other things that can induce stress, besides the bed the action sits in.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UNCIVILIZED</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface? That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal from & reinatallation into the stock. </div></div>

Guys, this is a heck of a good idea, anyone have any suggestions of what solvents they want to try? I have Hoppes, Ed's Red, GI bore cleaner (very rare), damn have to see list all I have in the shop... but I can add: mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, or most common stuff, depending. But please understand I am not going to go out and get anything weird or difficult. I have to come up with the molds this week and next week I start casting the test blocks. Back by the end of the week. </div></div>

Note on this one. In conversation with the people involved, interaction with a lot of cleaning compounds is well known and documented so I won't be doing it. I've never had a problem since I don't leave cleaning compounds on bedding. More to come.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So far, in all the research I have done, the absolute top shelf stuff is Devcon Titanium. I know of a couple high end smiths that use it. The $100/lb is a kick to the wallet, but if you want the best....However, the thousands of rifles out there with their Plastic Steel, MarineTex, and even good ole JB Weld, aren't really complaining. Properly doing the bedding is as important as the compound used. Not to mention other things that can induce stress, besides the bed the action sits in. </div></div>

Already on the shelf, just starting to build the casting blocks for testing. I've used Devcon, but not the new ones.

I can't remember the first time I bedded my '03 (when dinosaurs were still roaming the earth), first gas gun (Devine M1A) was in 75 with ACRAGLAS. For a lot of years (with the exception of USGI spec rifles), I normally use ACRAGLAS because it stands up to the semi-auto pounding quite well and flows exceptionally well for those tricky areas. But it is tricky to use and it's just best if you know the tricks. Understand, bedding a Garand or a 14 type is not as easy as a bolt rifle and they do withstand more abuse from the cycling of the action. Easiest rifle I've bedded was an M40A1.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gotta ask, casting blocks of what? Bedding?

</div></div>

Yep, list of bedding compounds I have is posted. I'll be doing fracture, stress and shear testing.

This is to update something that was originally done 30+ years ago. But I'll be doing it a bit more formally so it can be duplicated without monster testing equipment.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I heard somewhere that an epoxy made for boilers works good to. It has the ability to deal with the huge range of temperatures. Don't recall what it was called.
</div></div>

Ahhh no... not going to go there. Reason is there are a fine selection of products available and made for this use. Some compounds are better for bolt rifles, some are better for gas guns (Garands/14 types). I'd really prefer to stick with known products as much as possible.

But understand, I can't remember the date I bedded my first rifle (hey dinosaurs were still around) and my true love (besides good rifles) are the gas guns. Been a 14 type shooter since 73. Shot my first M14 NM in 69 (also an E2 with switch, I didn't care for). Loved the NM. Still love them. But I have 3 bolt rifles I have to bed in the near future. One's a really nice little SAKO. I like it.

I've used a lot of strange stuff over the years for various things... I think it's best to stick with known stuff. Never ask me some of the things I've lubed cases with, it's a good laugh.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

I have some leftover stuff called "peanut butter" from my boats transom and stringer replacement. Its a brownish red mix of finely powdered chopped fiberglass strands and graphite.

I mix it with the same epoxy resin used in the boat transom to just a little softer than peanut butter consistancy. It cures very hard. I did the transom 5 years ago, and still have enough compound to do hundreds of bedding jobs. Got it all from West Marine.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

>Two part epoxy must be 1) fresh and it must be 2) mixed warm.
>There is nothing worse that having to dig out soft epoxy from >down in holes.

Since I've been using bedding compounds for almost 40 years, I'm well aware of how to use and store it. At the moment all the bedding compounds are stored in the ambient temp of 70 degrees. I have the info from DuPont on some of the issues using this kind of compounds and temp issues.



>If there is any question about freshness, mix 1 cc and wait >for hit to harden.


Considering the testing I'm doing, 1cc doesn't hold up to what's needed to build blocks for these tests.


> Put dates on epoxy containers.

Chuckle. Sorry I did get a laugh out of this one.

> Boeing uses a huge amount of Devcon in tooling. They put
> expiration dates on containers.

I'll work with the manufacture's data... I've seen an M1A bedded at Boeing, one of the worst I've seen.

> Don't store epoxy in a cold shop and then mix it.
> Bring it in the house overnight before mixing.

Again, I have direct data from DuPont about the issues with these compounds, I am well aware. My bedding stuff does not live in the shop. It stays indoors in a controlled climate.


>Some fast epoxies, [like Putty-Cote for stock painting prep], >stink too much to mix in the house. Mix while walking out the >door.

Only stocks I've ever been tempted to paint are the McMillans I use. Thankfully they ship them to me unpainted, I do not care for "Camo" stocks. I was taught to use Ghillie, it works better and in testing "Camo" paint jobs, it's my view that it's a waste of time and basically more of an ego thing. Camo stocks tend to stand out just as bad and factory wood, sometimes worse.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

ken226 said:
I have some leftover stuff called "peanut butter" from my boats transom and stringer replacement. Its a brownish red mix of finely powdered chopped fiberglass strands and graphite.


A lot of the bedding compounds originate from boating products. Marine Tex, Fenwall and a fair amount of others can be traced back to marine use.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Bedding compounds

>
UNCIVILIZED said:
Which "flavor(s)" of Devcon? And is there a >chance to do a series of standardized tests, like dropping the >rifle from various specific angles onto a hard surface?


You supply the rifle, I'd be happy to drop it!
grin.gif


>That & the various bedding compounds solvent resistances as >well. Also, how well a rifle holds it's zero after removal >from & reinatallation into the stock.

1) Not going to test solvents, in discussion with several vendors it's already documented. NEVER leave solvents on a weapon after cleaning for ANY reason.

2) Taking a bedded rifle out of the stock and maintaining zero depends to a degree on the compound you're using. It's one of the reasons I use ACRAGLAS on 14 type (typically) because it's strong enough to stand up to take downs. My Devine bedding lasted 2 and 1/2 barrels without ever touching the bedding or loosing zero. BUT! I know how to take bedded rifles out of the stock without stressing the bedding. Yes, this is a factor people don't think about. Best bet is to turn the rifle over and tap the butt on a padded surface to let the action work itself out of the bedding without stressing the bedding. On a Garand or 14 type, it's unhook the trigger group and ease it out, then turn the rifle over and tap the butt on a padded surface and allow the action to ease out a bit at a time. Works nicely and has since I was taught this one in 75. When I bedded the Devine rifle, I was told "You have three times to take it out of the stock before you need to touch or rebed the action. They didn't factor in that I used ACRAGLAS. It stands up.

But I'm interested in a number of the compounds I have and will report it as the tests get done. Right now I'm waiting on some small boxes that are perfect for casting blocks.

I don't like Devcon putty... but I am interested in some of the new versions. I used Devcon on M14s years ago since they had to be done Mil Spec. Fenwall wasn't available per the USMTU manual and the USMC NM specs were slightly different anyway.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Bedding compounds

Sorry guys, working out a way to cast blocks (slightly tricky with some of the compounds) and the weather has NOT been helpful.

Sorry for the lag.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry guys, working out a way to cast blocks (slightly tricky with some of the compounds) and the weather has NOT been helpful.

Sorry for the lag. </div></div>

I did try some casting to test the molds (will be redoing this one).

Out of simple curiosity (and since I have a fair amount of it), I cast a block of ACRAGLAS without floc. set up nicely (although it works better with floc) and whacked it to see how strong it is. Did nicely (no chipping or cracking). It went outside into the snow and stayed there for 2 days. Abused it again... nothing.

Understand that when the weather breaks I'll be doing things formally... I just did this out of curiosity since that block was already cast. I already know the classic Devcon won't stand up to this kind of punishment. We tested that back in the 80's when I was using it on some M14s.

Doing this one with one of the old technical editors from American Rifleman.
 
Re: Bedding compounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M25BeastShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DEVCON Aluminum is good for varmint rifles
I use DEVCON M1A's </div></div>

Used Devcon on M14s, don't care for it. I do have the later products and will be testing them when the weather breaks (or gets a bit better.
wink.gif


Headed back to the hardware store to work up some smarter molds.
 
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