Man this really has me worried. I have a 6.5 creed at Bergara right now due to the exact same problem. Average groups for mine was 1.3" for every group fired. I changed scopes to make sure and checked all torque specs. I also have the fat wrench for torque specs so I wonder if I get the same response.... But if it doesn't get any better I will not keep it. Can't justify having a rifle that shoots 1.3" groups. Heck, my first bolt action Savage shot better then this.
- Thread starter Cheesusrice69
- Start date
Best of luck to you. I am surprised that they said the screws were overtorqued. I have been really careful with my torque driver and never left it sitting with tension in the mechanism (which is how you kill torque drivers).
I actually tried shooting the rifle after they sent it back. I bought the same ammo they used in their tests. Unfortunately I ran into an issue at the range.
The first shot was about 3" to the right of the target. The next two shots were off the page. I aimed at a target lower down on my page and found it hit about 3" high and 3" right. After that things seemed to settle down but towards the end of my range session the shots started climbing with each successive shot.
I assume this is because I had to remount my scope base and scope after they returned it but the only time I ever had an issue like this was on a slug gun where the base screws walked out. In the case of the slug gun you could visibly see the base wiggle if you pressed on it. In the case of this rifle the base screws were fine.
Anyway, I am going to swap the scope and rings and test it this weekend. I'll let you know if I am able to ascertain whether the changes to the torque did anything useful.
Man this does not sound promising. Good luck with the second round of trying in and report back if you can.
I'll let you know for sure. By the way, I tested my torque wrench using a piece of wood with a 1/4" bit in it and a weight. I just slid the weight along the piece of wood while holding it in a bench vise with soft jaws and measured the distance the wrench broke at (obviously accounting for the weight of the wood and the fact the center of mass is in the center). It was pretty much spot on across the whole range of settings.
That is very good to know as I am using the same torque tool. Thank you for that info. I didn't quite know a way to test it.
I was able to test the rifle again today. It's shooting exactly the same as before, no change. I can't say I'm surprised. I shot 169 Grain SMKs and averaged right around 1 MOA 5-shot groups. It meets Bergara's sub-MOA 3-shot guarantee but it's just kind of "meh". It's okay performance but nothing special at all. There are many hunting rifles under $500 that perform the same or better.
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Sadly after reading this thread I am worried about the same thing. Especially after your post on the smallest group they sent you the target of, then knowing that it also opened up as much as it did. I can only assume they put it in some type of vice. This variation is not good for something they market as sub MOA. The variation is the concern. I will patiently wait and hope for something different but trying not to get my hopes up. I may go the route of trying a prefit and building my own! Researching all of that now.
Exactly. A gun in good order shouldn’t shoot a 0.17 MOA group and a nearly 1 MOA group back to back. I’ve shot hundreds of rounds through it and only found a single load that shot sub-MOA during a single range session. Anyway, I learned a valuable lesson, never buy a Bergarbage rifle. The best of luck to you! I hope Bergara makes it right.
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Well, I will wait and see. but expectations are low. I am either going to try and build one if I can find a left hand action, or just have GAP just keep adding more to my list. Good grief 3 builds right now. Now just to find a left hand action in stock that is worth anything!
That’s hilarious, I’m left-handed too. That said, I have never bought a left-handed bolt gun. Anyway, I wouldn’t worry too much. If your gun was consistently shooting 1.3 MOA 3-shot groups you should be good. I just thought Bergara actually cared about their moto “Our Barrels Make The Difference.” Mediocrity isn’t a difference in my book.
My very first savage shot .5 MOA groups all day. Nothing special in the additions. I just have to hope Bergara is striving to be better. But we will see.
Well....My experience is going to be EXACTLY like yours. I only knew about the rifle coming back as UPS sent a notification that a signature would be required. I called Bergara today. Took a bit to get through due to phones/recording stating technical issues. Finally talked to a person and he was hesitant to provide any information, but eventually did. I asked if it was normal for the rifle to be sent back without any contact and he said spam folders are common. I checked and nothing there. He read the report and stated they checked torque, cleaned, shot two 3 shot groups and got 0.77 and 0.88 MOA. Sending it back with nothing done. So frustrated right now. I'm no pro, but have many other bolt action rifles that are true to the companies guarantee. I wanted to believe this was going to be a good experience but that is not the case. Trying to decide if I even waste the time mounting another scope and testing again vs just unloading it. Could it be me? Maybe, but my targets looked just like yours with extreme fliers. Using the same ammunition they claim shot well.
Yeah. This is the thing, shooting a couple 3-shot groups is statistically meaningless. This is why a lot of companies have a guarantee that 2 of 3 3-shot groups will be under 1 MOA. With 5-shot groups you're more likely to see variance in how the gun shoots if it exists. If the dice roll had gone a different way they'd be servicing your rifle right now. I don't agree that it is common (or should be) to send back firearms without even contacting the customer. I've never had that happen with any other company before.
In my case, I bedded my scope base this week to see if that helps at all. If that doesn't help I will consider bedding the action. I am just trying to eliminate the potential causes of problems (the scope moving with respect to the action or the action moving with respect to the stock). I doubt it will help because even Bergara's gunsmith got crazy inconsistency with my rifle but it won't hurt anything to try.
I know that a lot of people state things like, "The gun shoots better than me." or they blame the shooter when defending a brand that they like but I honestly think most people can shoot sub-MOA if they shoot regularly and have a stable shooting position (e.g. a bipod and rear bag or a front rest and rear bag). I know for a fact I can since my Tikka CTR averages < 0.5 MOA for 5-shot groups.
Anyway, I think is unfortunate that Bergara are just sticking to the letter of the law in their guarantee and not listening to customers who have experience shooting, have 100s of rounds down the tube in that particular rifle and are telling them that they are getting inconsistent results.
BTW, did they send you both target cards? I'm just curious because they only sent me one. I'll be sure to let you know if bedding the scope base helped. It's a long shot but it can't hurt.
I will find out tomorrow what they mail back. I only got the information because I called and pressed for info. It is due to be delivered tomorrow. I think your example clearly shows inconsistency. I can't remember your exact group numbers from Bergara but ballpark 1/4 MOA and then a 1 MOA. That screams inconsistency. I don't expect this to shoot as good as a custom build, but I expect true sub MOA and not random fliers that open up a group to 2 MOA.
I hear you. I have never had my Tikka CTR shoot over 1 MOA (for 5-shot groups) with the recommended ammo or handloads. That's basically what I would expect from Bergara since they are comparable in price. My CTR averages < 0.5 MOA with 140 grain Hornady Match bullets and right around 0.5 MOA with 147 grain Hornady Match bullets. My B-14 has a chassis and aluminum bedding block in its stock while the CTR stock is just plastic. It's perplexing how it is possible for the B-14 to shoot so poorly in comparison. It may be because the Tikka barrels are cold hammer forged and Bergara barrels are button rifled.
I will see if there is anything additional when returned. Truthfully I do not even know if I want to mount the scope back on it. I had already pulled the scope and changed it, different rings, torqued all again when I was doing my own process of elimination before calling them. May look at the Tikka line since they sell left hand bolt guns. I just wish Impact was not out of stock on left hand actions otherwise I would start the process on a prefit!
I was looking on Bergara's website and it states that they give you the smallest of the targets they shoot in their test. Not both of them. Anyway, yeah, I would say Tikka's are a good option. Mine shoots lights out. That said, Tikka is now owned by Beretta and Beretta USA has legendarily bad customer service. I haven't had any issues but if you ever do, apparently you're pretty much on your own. Just something to keep in mind.
Thanks for the updates. I guess I'll be recommending tikkas now.
Sad to say it. But it seems like Bergara is going to be like any other rifle. You may get a good one or subpar. I am now trying to think to all of my initial 120 rounds. Was the barrel too hot? Did it shoot well until 10 rounds, Etc. I have decided to mount my scope, again...and keep troubleshooting on my own. Maybe the barrel is very temp sensitive? If I recall my very first rounds out of the rifle seemed to group fairly well. But it went down hill from there for sure. If it is temp sensitive, I can say I have never had a barrel in any factory or custom build send fliers as bad as mine did. We are talking 1-2" from the initial group.
That's the same thing I am seeing. This is a typical example of the kinds of "fliers" you get with ammo the rifle "likes". 4 rounds touching and 1 way off on its own or two rounds touching in one spot and 3 rounds touching somewhere else. I'll find out this weekend if bedding the scope base helps at all. It can't hurt anyway.
Honestly, I am so frustrated the more I think about it. At first I was thinking that maybe this occurs if the barrel is too hot. I found another post that described what Bergara does: 3 shot group and complete cool down. The another 3 shot group. If within spec they call it good. So if a warmer barrel is a problem leading to fliers, how the heck are they marketing this as a hunting/match rifle?! You wouldn't be able to shoot one state without extreme fliers! Have you seen any correlation to temp and the fliers? I was looking back through all of my targets as I have them for every round fired. There MAY be a link to the groups worsening with time and most likely temp. I was not ever shooting fast though. But I never let it cool completely either.
Edit to add: I would include pictures of all of my groups, but it would be so hard to explain the group order! And sadly I didn't document anything about subjective evaluation of barrel temp. Never had to do that for any rifle before though. This is exactly why I stopped buying factory rifles! After a custom built, the only question is if I am doing my part. And even then it means a 0.75 MOA group on a bad string. This thing is 2 MOA on a "bad string".
The other thing I notice with your target which I have noticed with mine. If you didn't make any adjustments with same point of aim or scope adjustments, that is complete different points of impact as well!
No. I didn't adjust my scope at all in between shots. That is a particularly egregious example of a "flier" but yeah, the group was looking good up until then.
I just looked through all my data from shooting the rifle and I don't see any reliable correlation between the order in which I shot the groups and group size. I also don't wait for the gun to totally cool but I shoot at a range that has so few shooters (i.e. it's usually just me) I usually go down range and look at the target between groups. Anyway, in some cases the groups get smaller as I shoot, in other cases they get bigger. I would be surprised if it is related to heat because the HMR barrel profile is pretty beefy.
If it isn't the barrel and is something that can be fixed I figure it must be either the scope base or the action moving inside the stock. I may just skim bed the recoil lug and the tang to see if it helps.
Good luck with it and please report back! I think I am honestly done with mine. At first I thought I would remount the scope but as I think more about it, I am just wasting time and money knowing they did nothing and it is considered within their specs.
I’ll let you know. I know I’m not going to get it warrantied now so I have no problem messing with it. Also I’m a Mechanical Engineer so if it can be fixed I should be able to do it or my degree wasn’t worth anything. Lol.
Well, turns out bedding the scope base didn't do anything. I got basically the exact same average group size and mean radius for my groups as I did last week.
Go figure... I broke down and remounted my base and scope. Going to shoot today and also having a friend shoot it as well. We will see but just as before my hopes are not high. If anything I am getting really good at mounting bases, rings and scopes! Actually pretty fast at it now and know all torque specs by heart thanks to this rifle!
I owned a B-14 HMR 6.5 Creedmoor a couple of years ago. I could never get that rifle to be consistent with factory or custom handloads. I now shoot a custom bolt action and consistently prints between 1/4 to 1/2 MOA with a prefit barrel. I sold the Bergara and never looked back.
Mike,
I took the BS rifle again today after getting it back from Bergara claiming it was within their specs with 140gr ELDM match. I took that, as well as 147gr and some other variations. Not a single difference than all of my experiences shooting it. 1.3-1.5 MOA. A fellow range member who was clearly a seasoned shooter based on looking at his target which had to be .25 MOA groups fired this rifle as well. He had the exact same experience with the ammo that Bergara claims meets their standards. So frustrated that a company considers this acceptable and to be honest the testing they do is not adequate for the marketing of a "hunting/match rifle. There is no way anyone would shoot a match with this! My final thoughts are to either pay a gunsmith to rebarrel it or see if the company that sold it to me has a Bergara rep. If so I want them to take this to the range and show me "sub MOA guarantee". Angry tonight as I have invested a large amount into match ammo trying to get this rifle to shoot. What a waste.
I agree. I was looking at options to rebarrel it but I’d probably rather put that into another rifle. I’m probably going try bedding the action but I’m also concerned about the expense involved in testing it. Anyway, if this had only been advertised as a hunting rifle I wouldn’t be as upset because it’s good for a few hundred yards. The fact that they advertise it as a hunting/match rifle is false advertising in my opinion.
My Tikka CTR averages under 0.5 MOA for 140 grain ELDMs. These are the first shots out of the rifle. The first group was low because I bore-sighted it at 100 yards. I shot in the middle of the two pages to be sure I’d get on paper. There were random hand loads for a different rifle btw…Nothing special.
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I am more than willing to try Tikka and may consider this. It's got to be a lefty which I think they do. What do you recommend? Varmit version?
The CTR is a thicker barrel profile which is why I went with a CTR. I have the stainless version but I posted my results here and someone with the carbon steel version basically got the same results as me with the exact same load. That’s what I call consistency. My dad even shot a 0.19” 5-shot group at 100 yards with my rifle his 3rd time ever shooting a firearm. He had probably fired 50 rounds in his entire life before shooting that 0.19” 5-shot group. That’s both impressive and upsetting. Lol.
Tikka T3X CTR First Shots...WOW!
Today I took out a new Tikka T3X CTR in 6.5 CM shooting for the first time and I have to say I'm really impressed. I was just using old hand loads (with varying powder charges working up in 0.3 grain increments) I had lying around for a different rifle. I labelled the groups in order. It seems...
www.snipershide.com Now that is truly amazing! I will look in to this for sure.The CTR is a thicker barrel profile which is why I went with a CTR. I have the stainless version but I posted my results here and someone with the carbon steel version basically got the same results as me with the exact same load. That’s what I call consistency. My dad even shot a 0.19” 5-shot group at 100 yards with my rifle his 3rd time ever shooting a firearm. He had probably fired 50 rounds in his entire life before shooting that 0.19” 5-shot group. That’s both impressive and upsetting. Lol.
View attachment 8188504
Tikka T3X CTR First Shots...WOW!
Today I took out a new Tikka T3X CTR in 6.5 CM shooting for the first time and I have to say I'm really impressed. I was just using old hand loads (with varying powder charges working up in 0.3 grain increments) I had lying around for a different rifle. I labelled the groups in order. It seems...
@mikehill85 and @Dog Doc
I share your same experiences with a B14 of mine chambered in 22-250. 150 rounds down the tube / 6 different projectiles / 4 different powders / OCW tests / Berger seating depth method tests all to no avail to get anything to be repeatable sub MOA 5 shot groups.
I sent the rifle to Bergara whom also sent it back to me without warning - found a ups notification stuck to the front door saying they missed me and adult signature required.
I was shocked to learn that the factory ammo 55vmax 3 shot groups they produced were .39, .57, and .9 MOA while doing nothing but a quick once over and test firing.
I’m no master benchrest shooter but I can produce .5 MOA groups over and over on other rifles of mine. Based on your stories I’m not too confident I’ll get the same success as the factory bergara techs but I’ll give it one last try for kicks and see if I can break the trend.
I share your same experiences with a B14 of mine chambered in 22-250. 150 rounds down the tube / 6 different projectiles / 4 different powders / OCW tests / Berger seating depth method tests all to no avail to get anything to be repeatable sub MOA 5 shot groups.
I sent the rifle to Bergara whom also sent it back to me without warning - found a ups notification stuck to the front door saying they missed me and adult signature required.
I was shocked to learn that the factory ammo 55vmax 3 shot groups they produced were .39, .57, and .9 MOA while doing nothing but a quick once over and test firing.
I’m no master benchrest shooter but I can produce .5 MOA groups over and over on other rifles of mine. Based on your stories I’m not too confident I’ll get the same success as the factory bergara techs but I’ll give it one last try for kicks and see if I can break the trend.
Well, I think the issue is they are shooting 3-shot groups. Sure, I typically get 3-shot groups under 1 MOA with my rifle but with 5-shot groups it’s 50-50. So yeah, the rifle meets Bergara’s guarantee but they call it a “Hunting/Match” rifle. You're not going to win any matches with the way my rifle is shooting.
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Man I wouldn't waste your time. A dud is a dud no matter how many things you try. I am beyond frustrated at this point and it isn't even about the money lost in this rifle or the ammo I burned up. I bought this rifle about 2 months ago and 1 month of that time it was at Bergara. I am to the point of trading it back at a big loss to Scheels who highly recommended them over Tikka. I just left there and the guy who sold me the rifle gave me his thoughts(barrel crown and chassis/stock) but this rifle has a 1 MOA "guarantee" as is. It will not do that. Some may but ours clearly do not. I could tell without the salesman even saying it he figured I was some dumb ass who sucks at shooting. My last thought is to try and call Bergara to talk to someone up the food chain and see what they will do. How could this ever be used for a match?! What a joke of a company.
@mikehill85 I just wanted to let you know I threw in the towel today and traded the Bergara off. I only hade it about 2 months and 1 month was at Bergara. Lost half of my investment but honestly, I couldn't take knowing how poor it was and wasn't going to spend any more time trying to have them make it right. I am planning on the action/prefit route but after my trade today, I have found an AR10 platform that within 30 rounds was printing groups almost as good as my full custom rifles. It is basically like a bad trip to Vegas but I am still coming home happy lol!
Mine is going in this week after I finally convinced them to give me an RMA and shipping label, but after reading this thread, I don’t have much hope.
Here is my thread:
Thread 'Rough bolt on new Bergara HMR Pro'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rough-bolt-on-new-bergara-hmr-pro.7181818/
Here is my thread:
Thread 'Rough bolt on new Bergara HMR Pro'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rough-bolt-on-new-bergara-hmr-pro.7181818/
I had a really rough bolt on mine. It was because they laser etched a QR code on the bottom of the bolt though.
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Really? No QR codes or laser etching of any type of my bolt or bolt body.
Seems Bergara can’t stay consistent with their production.
More examples than just this. For example mine didn’t ship with the QC ”inspected by” card, and they just threw the barrel sticker into the box instead of attaching it to the barrel.
I really hope they do something to make it right, but sadly I did not get this with my experience. Good luck to you!
Yeah. Mine has a QR code, "Bergara" logo, and serial number, etched on the bolt. It sure did make the bolt rough to start out. Running the bolt felt like pushing a rake over gravel. I smoothed it out with some 3,000 grit sandpaper and it's perfect now. I have no idea why they thought etching the bottom of a bolt was a good idea. I wonder if my version of the rifle was meant for distribution in Countries that require serial numbers on all major firearm components or something like that. That's the only reason I can think of for adding a serial number onto a bolt.
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Good point on country regulations.
Mine is the HMR Pro with the Premier Bolt assembly and finished here in the US, so different manufacturing process likely.
Of course, most likely a completely different manufacturing process. I just think it’s odd because I bought it brand new in the U.S. Of course, the difference in the models could also explain the difference.
Man....Yours being the Pro I would be REALLY angry! That is ridiculous! Good luck and hope they do something for you.
FYI,
I took a look at the recoil lug today. Looks like it is making minimal contact with the aluminum in the stock based on the wear patterns on the stock and rifle. Seems like bedding the recoil lug may be the ticket (assuming the issue isn't the barrel).
I took a look at the recoil lug today. Looks like it is making minimal contact with the aluminum in the stock based on the wear patterns on the stock and rifle. Seems like bedding the recoil lug may be the ticket (assuming the issue isn't the barrel).
I am very disappointed. Even more so because I waited for the HMR Pro to go on sale. Found it at EuroOptic for $1,400 down from $1,700 and had a $200 gift certificate to EO from a friend. So my cost was $1,200.
I could never replace it with the same or similarly (list) priced rifle with 30% savings.
Yes, their “PREMIER” bolt and action had better live up to it when they send it back to me or I will be thoroughly disappointed and sharing all of their claims of it behaving as expected.
Also, I found it laughable that they insist on sending the rifle back to them with a cleaned out and protected bore, yet they shipped mine out to EuroOptic after assembly and factory test firing it, with a filthy bore and brass specs on the bolt face.
You may be on to something there. I hope it works out and keep us posted!
I’ll add one more … and it may already be very obvious since the barreled action has already been removed from the stock. Removing any paint from the lug or the bedding pillars is wise to do too when it’s all apart.
You can see my regular HMR came over sprayed on all surfaces.
When I removed the overspray nothing changed accuracy wise but I’ve heard others have had luck with it.
Please do keep us in the loop how it turns out !
You can see my regular HMR came over sprayed on all surfaces.
When I removed the overspray nothing changed accuracy wise but I’ve heard others have had luck with it.
Please do keep us in the loop how it turns out !
