Berger says no H1000 with 180 grain bullets in a 7mm RSAUM

[dpilot83]

I'm finally getting close to reloading my first round. When I was getting components together, I noticed that lots of you use H1000 with the 180 grain bullets. Same thing on Accurate Shooter, so I bought H1000.

Now that I'm finally getting close to reloading the first round, I got on the Hodgdon site and they have no data for H1000 with a 180 grain bullet. So I emailed Berger and asked them. Berger said this:

"Thank you for getting with us at Berger Bullets. We do not list H-1000 for this application, due to its very slow burn rate. To get to a good working pressure, you would be over 109% fill ratio. If you could get all of this powder in the case, you would not be able to properly seat the bullet. Please do not hesitate to get back with us if we can be of further assistance for you."

So for those of you using H1000 in your 7mm RSAUM's with 180 grain Bergers, how are you doing it? Why is there a discrepancy between what I read on the forums and what the mfg data suggests?

Since this is my first time reloading, I was hoping to use mfg data and very slowly work up on a load. I feel somewhat uncomfortable having my first load using a combination of components that is not recommended by the mfg's, but they are saying my pressures will be too low rather than too high which should not be as dangerous I guess.

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Adam B]

60gr of H1000 2.865 oal 180 berger vld

 

[dpilot83]

Thanks. I thought rifle specs might be relevant to this thread as well. I purchased the rifle on the FS section of this site. Here are the specs listed in that thread. Quick copy and paste so probably extra irrelevant info there as well:

"Custom Remington 700 in 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Mag
- Trued 700 Long Action
- Action dialed to 0.0002" of concentric in lathe
- Receiver face trued
- Tenon threads single point cut 0.015" larger
- Lug face trued
- Scope base holes enlarged to 8-40
- Ken Farrell 20moa base
- Short Action Customs Gen 3 blind side bolt release
- PTG one piece bolt, ground spiral flutes, mini m16 extractor, custom knob
- Bartlein Stainless 1-8.5" twist M24 contour barrel
- Bore dialed to within 0.0002" before chambering
- Chambered with PTG no turn match reamer
- Muzzle threaded 5/8-24 for APA little bastard brake, also suppressor ready
- Manners T4 stock
- Epoxy pillar bedded with Devcon steel putty
- APA detachable box bottom metal with one AI 338LMmagazine
- Picatinny forend rail for Atlas Bipod (bipod not included)
- Two flush cups left side
- Timney 510 trigger (I will switch it with a Jewell for extra if you prefer)
- Cerakote sniper gray on barreled action and bottom metal, graphite black on bolt and side bolt release
- Bipod not included"

And another copy & paste from slightly further down in the thread:

"For anyone wondering, it was chambered with a PTG Match no-turn neck reamer, .317nk, .188fb. AKA it
will work great for the 180's."

 

[milo 2.0]

I'm on my 5th chambering of a 7saum. In three I've tried H1000, usually pressured up around 63gr with no or low velocity. So my findings are the exact opposite of Berger's. IMO, if you fill to 109%, crunch powder when seating, you'd be close to having a face full of steel when you touched a round off.
Retumbo never has worked, RL 25, VV N 570 was and is the best, just pricey.

Just surprised Berger says this, as they must know hundreds of people are running H1000 in a saum. Sometimes a guy just has to think outside the box and be a pioneer, I'd bet we were some of the first in the country to charge the case with N570.

Be cautious, that .317 neck of yours might be a little tight, my loads with Rem brass measure .316. I tried the 317 neck and had to ream it to .319 almost immediately.

 

[sandwarrior]

Not sure why Berger says this either. I load for my 7mm WSM and helped friends with both 7mm RSAUM and 6.5 Rem Mag and those case capacities are just about right with H-1000. I load 62 gr. in my 7mm WSM so thinking starting at 57 gr in a RSAUM and working up would be the ticket. I like loading my 7mm WSM low pressure and still getting good accuracy. I've had tremendous barrel life out of it as well. Low pressure equates to low erosion. Keeping accuracy is the key.

FWIW, I also load surplus 50 BMG powder in my 7mm WSM. It's cheaper and just as accurate. So, it shows it just depends on the rifle as to what powders (and speed of burn) a rifle will like. I'll concur that some powders just won't work in some rifles. At least not for precision work.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

You need to let go of the obsession with "mfg's data". There are lots of people here running H1000 with their 7SAUM. From my reading, it appears the longer the barrel you have, the better H1000 will perform. It seems to be a split between H1000 and 26"+ barrels and H4831SC and less than 26" barrels.

Willam Roscoe (Louisiana Precision) is very knowlegable on 7SAUM. Give him a call. He is the one who chambered my 7SAUM.

Also, here is 4 pages of additional reading on this topic.

7 RSAUM Load thread...Post your 7RSAUM(ony 7RSAUM) Load

 

[West_Bay_Wader]

I am shooting a 30" Benchmark 8 twist 5R on a Stiller predator action 7SAUM and still finalizing load development. As it has reached summer my pressure is a little higher than I want. All of mine is with Norma brass.

I had originally found this in a thread which was attributed to Berger.
H-1000
start: 60.0, with +0.5gr increases in powder up until 65.0grs, expect to see pressure around 64.0.

I had run up to 64 in early spring with no problems noted. When I went back out recently the bolt lift was fairly stiff so I am going to back down a bit. At 64 and 10" off the lands I am getting ~3050 fps but again the bolt lift is stiff. I have another series loaded up in 63.2, 63.4 and 63.6 and should finish load development there. 64 shot nice at 0.4 MOA at 300y but is stiffer than I want to shoot all of the time.

I cannot put enough Retumbo in the case to get to a pressure problem and have been as high as 65.5 gr but that is partly up the neck with powder. These were some of the early rounds down the barrel and it has sped up some now. I was getting around 2930 with a full dose of Retumbo then. I am going to go back and shoot a 65 gr to compare with the H1000 on a broken in barrel in the summer to finally determine which way to go - Retumbo vs H1000.

 

[SOC308]

I run 68gr of H1000 in the 7wsm and get great results. I used reloader 17, but reverted back to H1000 while the powder is hard to find.

 

[dpilot83]

I'm on my 5th chambering of a 7saum. In three I've tried H1000, usually pressured up around 63gr with no or low velocity. So my findings are the exact opposite of Berger's. IMO, if you fill to 109%, crunch powder when seating, you'd be close to having a face full of steel when you touched a round off.
Retumbo never has worked, RL 25, VV N 570 was and is the best, just pricey.

Just surprised Berger says this, as they must know hundreds of people are running H1000 in a saum. Sometimes a guy just has to think outside the box and be a pioneer, I'd bet we were some of the first in the country to charge the case with N570.

Be cautious, that .317 neck of yours might be a little tight, my loads with Rem brass measure .316. I tried the 317 neck and had to ream it to .319 almost immediately.

Thanks, especially on the neck comment. I'm a newbie so I'll study up on that. Thanks again.

 

[dpilot83]

In three I've tried H1000, usually pressured up around 63gr with no or low velocity.

What do you mean by this exactly? Do you mean you were seeing signs of over-pressure even though you were getting low velocity? You said "no or low", does that mean sometimes the bullet wasn't even making it out of the barrel and you were experiencing signs of over-pressure? I'm sure these questions sound extremely ignorant, but that's the stage of the game I'm at. I'm learning all I can. I have multiple reloading books and have spent a lot of time reading stickies on the forum and looking at load data, etc, but I'm still feeling quite out of my element. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

 

[dpilot83]

...so thinking starting at 57 gr in a RSAUM and working up would be the ticket.

So you're thinking starting at 57 grains would be safest? That's the lowest recommendation I've seen so far. I would like to start as low as I can without being way out of the realm of what is reasonable since this is my first time reloading. Thanks.

 

[dpilot83]

You need to let go of the obsession with "mfg's data".

I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's just my first time ever reloading and I don't want to make a big mistake so I'm researching as much as I can. I don't mind and am even excited about trying things that aren't exactly recommended after I get more experience, but for right now I'm just trying to make sure I don't do something I seriously regret.

There are lots of people here running H1000 with their 7SAUM. From my reading, it appears the longer the barrel you have, the better H1000 will perform. It seems to be a split between H1000 and 26"+ barrels and H4831SC and less than 26" barrels.

Willam Roscoe (Louisiana Precision) is very knowlegable on 7SAUM. Give him a call. He is the one who chambered my 7SAUM.

Also, here is 4 pages of additional reading on this topic.

7 RSAUM Load thread...Post your 7RSAUM(ony 7RSAUM) Load

Thanks very much. That is a good thread (I've read that one and many others, which is what ultimately lead me to making this thread).

Those threads and this one are making me question mfg data in general. If Berger things you need a case that's 109% of the RSAUM case in order to get enough H1000 in there to get adequate pressure, and you don't really need that much, what does that tell you about other load data? Is it possible that even the starting recommendations on other powders for the 7mm RSAUM or other calibers are a bit on the high end?

There is so much experience on this and other threads that is contrary to what Berger (and apparently Hodgden based upon the data available on their site although I did not email them) recommends that it makes me wonder about other data for other bullets, powders and calibers.

 

[dpilot83]

I am shooting a 30" Benchmark 8 twist 5R on a Stiller predator action 7SAUM and still finalizing load development. As it has reached summer my pressure is a little higher than I want. All of mine is with Norma brass.

I had originally found this in a thread which was attributed to Berger.
H-1000
start: 60.0, with +0.5gr increases in powder up until 65.0grs, expect to see pressure around 64.0.

I had run up to 64 in early spring with no problems noted. When I went back out recently the bolt lift was fairly stiff so I am going to back down a bit. At 64 and 10" off the lands I am getting ~3050 fps but again the bolt lift is stiff. I have another series loaded up in 63.2, 63.4 and 63.6 and should finish load development there. 64 shot nice at 0.4 MOA at 300y but is stiffer than I want to shoot all of the time.

I cannot put enough Retumbo in the case to get to a pressure problem and have been as high as 65.5 gr but that is partly up the neck with powder. These were some of the early rounds down the barrel and it has sped up some now. I was getting around 2930 with a full dose of Retumbo then. I am going to go back and shoot a 65 gr to compare with the H1000 on a broken in barrel in the summer to finally determine which way to go - Retumbo vs H1000.

Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

[Edds]

I think you were mis-informed by Berger. They have Ramshot Magnum listed in their 180 gr data. They even have it listed for a 168 gr bullet. On the Hodgdon burn rate chart, Ramshot Magnum is shown to have a slower burn rate than H1000.

As for the Hodgdon data, it's not that they don't list H1000 as a suitable powder, they don't list a 180 gr bullet. No one can list every possible combination.. A 175 gr bullet is listed with H1000 and Retumbo powder. That would indicate they believe H1000 is a good choice for a 180 gr bullet.

 

[sandwarrior]

So you're thinking starting at 57 grains would be safest? That's the lowest recommendation I've seen so far. I would like to start as low as I can without being way out of the realm of what is reasonable since this is my first time reloading. Thanks.

dpilot83

57 gr. is the minimum I would start with and therefore what I gave you. It's about 30-06 capacity. Added II: Going lower serves no purpose as performance will be far lower than what you seek.

The one issue to look out for when going with slow powders is secondary ignition or flash-over. What happens is when you have way to low of a powder load, there is a possibility of the spark of the primer igniting the back end of the powder stack while near simultaneously igniting the front end of the stack. The result being the front burns backward and the max pressure point is the middle of the case when the two burns meet. This can occur if the case is down around 1/2 of a case and using slow powder. I have seen it happen with faster powders as well, but the key is being around half a case capacity.

In your case, 57 gr. still pretty much fills the case up and is way more than sufficient to prevent this phenomenon.

BTW, it is this very principle that allows us to cut trees, rocks and concrete with explosives. Keep your powder burning one way (singular ignition) and you will never have this problem. You really have to go to an extreme low volume to make this happen.

Added:

So, to my original point, start with 2 cases each at 57 gr. and work up in 1/2 gr. increments finding where bullets tend to land together at 300-500 yds. If you don't have that kind of range just look for an accuracy node at 100 yds. By going with 2 cases, you don't spend a lot of unnecessary shots piddling with load data.

 

[pangelos]

I have a 7 saum and I'm running 65gr of H1000 with a 180 berger hybrid. I'm having no pressure issues and some of my brass is on it 6th reload. I'm having great success with H1000...I know milo pretty well and know that h1000 didn't work very well for him and it may not work for you. The best is to try it in your gun and see it may/may not work for you. IMHO h1000 is the fastest powder I would use in a saum with a 180gr bullet if my didn't shoot so well with it I would probably run retumbo or n570 if it would ever appear again.

 

[dpilot83]

dpilot83

57 gr. is the minimum I would start with and therefore what I gave you. It's about 30-06 capacity. Added II: Going lower serves no purpose as performance will be far lower than what you seek.

The one issue to look out for when going with slow powders is secondary ignition or flash-over. What happens is when you have way to low of a powder load, there is a possibility of the spark of the primer igniting the back end of the powder stack while near simultaneously igniting the front end of the stack. The result being the front burns backward and the max pressure point is the middle of the case when the two burns meet. This can occur if the case is down around 1/2 of a case and using slow powder. I have seen it happen with faster powders as well, but the key is being around half a case capacity.

In your case, 57 gr. still pretty much fills the case up and is way more than sufficient to prevent this phenomenon.

BTW, it is this very principle that allows us to cut trees, rocks and concrete with explosives. Keep your powder burning one way (singular ignition) and you will never have this problem. You really have to go to an extreme low volume to make this happen.

Added:

So, to my original point, start with 2 cases each at 57 gr. and work up in 1/2 gr. increments finding where bullets tend to land together at 300-500 yds. If you don't have that kind of range just look for an accuracy node at 100 yds. By going with 2 cases, you don't spend a lot of unnecessary shots piddling with load data.

Thanks. Sorry for the long reply time. Got busy. That's very good to know about the really low powder loads. I really appreciate your help on this topic. I'll start there and go up.

At this point I'm stalled on cleaning the cases. I thought just for now with extremely low volume I could get by OK with a toothbrush and common household chemicals but I don't like the way it's turning out so I'm looking at getting a stainless media cleaner or building one.

Thanks again.

 

[dpilot83]

I have a 7 saum and I'm running 65gr of H1000 with a 180 berger hybrid. I'm having no pressure issues and some of my brass is on it 6th reload. I'm having great success with H1000...I know milo pretty well and know that h1000 didn't work very well for him and it may not work for you. The best is to try it in your gun and see it may/may not work for you. IMHO h1000 is the fastest powder I would use in a saum with a 180gr bullet if my didn't shoot so well with it I would probably run retumbo or n570 if it would ever appear again.

Thanks very much.

 

[trailrider121]

I'm currently using 180 Hybrid with 65.9grs Retumbo in Norma case. Works the best in my rifle;however, I'm loading a little longer COAL 3.065" base to tip in a long action. You need a 6-8 drop tube and pour slow. Mine are very light compressed with no issues. On 6 firings so far and brass still has tight pockets. I would say either H1000, Retumbo, or ??

 

[dturnersr]

also running H1000 Norma brass 64.5 gr. 180 Bergers GM215M 2.840

Rem 700 24"

 

[Wilcoxjace]

dpilot83

57 gr. is the minimum I would start with and therefore what I gave you. It's about 30-06 capacity. Added II: Going lower serves no purpose as performance will be far lower than what you seek.

The one issue to look out for when going with slow powders is secondary ignition or flash-over. What happens is when you have way to low of a powder load, there is a possibility of the spark of the primer igniting the back end of the powder stack while near simultaneously igniting the front end of the stack. The result being the front burns backward and the max pressure point is the middle of the case when the two burns meet. This can occur if the case is down around 1/2 of a case and using slow powder. I have seen it happen with faster powders as well, but the key is being around half a case capacity.

In your case, 57 gr. still pretty much fills the case up and is way more than sufficient to prevent this phenomenon.

BTW, it is this very principle that allows us to cut trees, rocks and concrete with explosives. Keep your powder burning one way (singular ignition) and you will never have this problem. You really have to go to an extreme low volume to make this happen.

Added:

So, to my original point, start with 2 cases each at 57 gr. and work up in 1/2 gr. increments finding where bullets tend to land together at 300-500 yds. If you don't have that kind of range just look for an accuracy node at 100 yds. By going with 2 cases, you don't spend a lot of unnecessary shots piddling with load data.

When finding an accurate node you only shoot two rounds? Not 5? Why?

 

[Steel head]

 

[sandwarrior]

When finding an accurate node you only shoot two rounds? Not 5? Why?

Two rounds each at a given load. Each set of two rounds is .3 gr. apart. That is a standard ladder. You would typically shoot 12-16 rounds depending on any previous experience with the cartridge.

If you can, that is shot at 300 or better on a calm day. IF you can.

Once you see a good pattern then you shoot five to verify.

 

[stello1001]

It seems the necro trolls might be back? This is not the only thread I've seen brought back...

 

[Steel head]

It seems the necro trolls might be back? This is not the only thread I've seen brought back...

 

[sandwarrior]

View attachment 7332534

It seems the necro trolls might be back? This is not the only thread I've seen brought back...

They are necro posts because in the moves before and after we went to scout, a lot of stuff got dropped.

 

[1moaoff]

Did the original owner have any load data?