Looking for a powder scale as the old reliable dillon manual is getting long in the tooth. Definitely won't be a Prometheus ($5100, but it looks to be great) as I'm not in the competition business. There always seems to be somebody out there with a better product than the standards that all the resellers sell.
- Thread starter rady
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He’s just looking for the scale so A&D FX 120i.
My fault fellas. I should have mentioned that I was looking for a trickler also, so that Autotrickler and scale fits the bill perfectly.
I have yet to put a feeler out here on the 'Hide for product recommendations, that don't end up leading me to products/vendors that I was not aware of. Thanks for your help.
I have yet to put a feeler out here on the 'Hide for product recommendations, that don't end up leading me to products/vendors that I was not aware of. Thanks for your help.
The Vibra HT 220 will eat the FX120 for lunch. I've had one for about 15 years or so I suppose. It's just a whole different level. Me and a couple of my shooting buddies each have one.
First point of note is the Vibra HT 220 goes to 3 decimal places in grains. It increments every 0.002 grains. Now you might think that to be excessive, but it's not. The standard of inspection is to use a measuring device that is ten times more precise that the error tolerance you hope to maintain... For this reason this scale is just right.
Any accurate scale will drift as a bi product of sensitivity, but when this one does, it drifts 0.004 grains., about a fifth of a kernel of Varget.
It also has internal calibration that automatically calibrates every time on start up.
As for the load sensing system.... There are 3 methods of sensing load change and the first two (Load cell and magnetic force reconstruction) are sensitive to warm up, voltage fluctuations and nearby electronics and radio signals such as a cordless phone. Load cell and magnetic force reconstruction scales operate best when connected to a voltage stabilized power source such as a battery back up for your PC.
The Vibra uses an entirely different method of sensing weight... As the name suggests... it uses vibration. Internally they have a tuning fork and the pitch changes as the weight changes. For this reason, it does not require a warm up and is not affected power fluctuations or cordless phones.
As long as the air pressure in the room is not changing, the Vibra HT 220 rarely drifts. So when I'm using it, I close the windows, make sure the wife is not running the dryer, and I stop if the gas water heater comes on.
There might be something better out there, but I've never found it.
https://www.tequipment.net/Intellig...MI6Z_wptv88wIVjLbICh3eTQ6SEAYYASABEgIAYPD_BwE
Yeah, and its only 1200 bucks instead of 500 and it doesnt have any add ons that enable it to go fast which is really the appeal of the fx120i and autothrow. And also what the OP was wanting.
Sound like a recommendation from the same guy that thinks tent stakes make the best bipods.
Sound like a recommendation from the same guy that thinks tent stakes make the best bipods.
Spife... You ignorant twit... should not mouth off about things you cannot understand.. Come on out and shoot F Class with me and I will send you home with an important life lesson.
I must have misread the title of this thread.... I thought it was...
I must have misread the title of this thread.... I thought it was...
Best electronic powder scale out there?
Sorry, my bad.
Isn’t Area419 coming out with a new dispenser unit for the 120i?
I’m quite happy my MatchMaster and RCBS offers a great veteran discount if you qualify. Made it much more affordable
I sold off my Autotrickler system and now run a pair of MatchMaster dispensers instead. I got tired of constantly fidgeting with the thrower body, the trickler base adjustments, etc. to keep everything running right. I don't have to screw with any of that on the MatchMaster.
The OP specifically requested a scale that works in conjunction with a trickler.
Does the scale you propose meet that criteria?
I have wondered about the Matchmaster… is 2 of them necessary (is having just 1 painfully slow)..?
One is about the same speed as my old Autotrickler+Thrower unit was. I am just impatient, so I run two. I also have an RCBS ChargeMaster Supreme that I kept after beta testing that is exclusively used for trainer ammo.
Ok forget all the other features what is the advantage of 3 decimal places?
Are you actually adjusting you powder charge to at least the second decimal?
SuperTrickler
You first need to understand the difference between the value displayed on the readout and the actual charge weight.
Scales drift which you can see on the display, but they also drift that you cannot see.
The only way you can detect it is by testing the weighed charges on something that is more precise than what you use.
There are even guys out there who swear the RCBS beam scale is as good as any digital scale, and its certainly not.
I have tested a variety of other scales against the Vibra and found the amount of error is far greater than the average consumer realizes.
I've seen videos where guys are weight sorting primers using the FX120, that's a joke. The variance in primer weight is often more consistent that the FX120 can reliably measure. They are essentially using primers to determine the accuracy of their scale, not the other way around. I've weighed Federal gold medal match primers that have all been within 0.04 grains. Sorting those on an FX120 is not telling you anything.
If you happen to shoot long range, perhaps 1000 yard f class or maybe even the king of 2 miles thing, you need to eliminate variability.
You may "think" the FX120 is within a kernel but its not... More like 4 kernels of Varget over a batch of 20. Maybe that's good enough, maybe it isnt... But consider what a 4 kernel powder charge variation translates to in velocity... 5 kernels is a tenth of a grain. How much does your average velocity change over a tenth of a grain charge weight difference?
Then you chase your tail trying to get low SDs, but now you have two problems, you don't know if the 15 FPS ES on your Labradar is the actual speed difference caused by variance in load, or if your actually running 2 FPS ES and the chronogragh is not precise enough to reliably detect the speed of your ammo.
I think of a kernel of powder in terms of FPS. Divide out at 5 kernels per 1/10th grain, how much velocity difference you get over a 0.1 grain load difference. When you are trying to hold lest than 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards, these things start to matter. Consider that the Center X in F Class is 1/2 MOA and round, it is widest along the horizontal center line. Meaning you have to hold 1/4" MOA vertical so you dont drop points out the corners.
OK thanks for the lesson, sure if a FX-120 does vary 4 kernels in 20 loads it will affect the ES its just hard to believe an FX-120 will vary that much.
Here's one more point, regarding value.
You might feel the Vibra is expensive, but consider the cost relative to a higher end auto trickling system. (Some guys run two to improve speed)
Sure the auto trickling system is convenient, but the scale plus automation is about the same cost as a good 3 decimal place scale. Maybe not the one I have , but something close anyway. But certainly the Vibra is less expensive than two good auto trickling systems.
So with automated systems you are spending enough money to get next level accuracy, but you are not getting it. You're sacrificing accuracy for convenience.
I don't know that an auto trickler is much faster than I am anyway. I keep a stack of about a hundred little stainless steel condiment cups on my bench. They are about the size of a shot glass. I simply throw the powder (just slightly under weight) using an old RCBS drum style thrower into each up for the lot. That's generally within about a half a grain.
Then one by one I tweak the loads manually using an Omega trickler. Once I get within a kernel, I throw the last kernel by hand, because its hard to get the trickler to kick just the one kernel without going over. Often times 2 or 3 kernels will come out. (Same problem automated systems have, so I do it by hand)
Its a production run process. Then once all the cups are filled and perfected, I just throw them all one by one into cases. It works for me.
You might feel the Vibra is expensive, but consider the cost relative to a higher end auto trickling system. (Some guys run two to improve speed)
Sure the auto trickling system is convenient, but the scale plus automation is about the same cost as a good 3 decimal place scale. Maybe not the one I have , but something close anyway. But certainly the Vibra is less expensive than two good auto trickling systems.
So with automated systems you are spending enough money to get next level accuracy, but you are not getting it. You're sacrificing accuracy for convenience.
I don't know that an auto trickler is much faster than I am anyway. I keep a stack of about a hundred little stainless steel condiment cups on my bench. They are about the size of a shot glass. I simply throw the powder (just slightly under weight) using an old RCBS drum style thrower into each up for the lot. That's generally within about a half a grain.
Then one by one I tweak the loads manually using an Omega trickler. Once I get within a kernel, I throw the last kernel by hand, because its hard to get the trickler to kick just the one kernel without going over. Often times 2 or 3 kernels will come out. (Same problem automated systems have, so I do it by hand)
Its a production run process. Then once all the cups are filled and perfected, I just throw them all one by one into cases. It works for me.
Interesting posts. Not off topic I think, the mechanical scale if used enough to get to know it’s range of repeatability has great value. Knowing and proving a good scale is invaluable for my needs. I throw with a charge master, monitor with a trustworthy old 505. Drift is shocking. So it was with another recommended electrical scale I gave back. I can pull any charged case from my tray and the 505 will repeat within one kernel of H4831. The charge master, within 6 kernels and some have been worse.
I also have a 505 as well and tested its accuracy recently. The first three charges varied by more than 0.4 grains, then I put it back. Case closed on that.
I can see how a guy would come to think it is more accurate than it actually is though. It does seem to react to just a kernel or two, but its still not repeatable on the actual gross weight if you have the means to validate.
I can see how a guy would come to think it is more accurate than it actually is though. It does seem to react to just a kernel or two, but its still not repeatable on the actual gross weight if you have the means to validate.
I’m not too out of touch with things mechanical. Newer 505’s are clearly not worthy. Mine is neetened up and it repeats. Some people confuse the language. I gave an excellent example some might miss.
Made this post a while ago.
www.snipershide.com
Dissecting Old Reloads
I found some old 30-06 reloads loaded by me a long time ago and decided to dissect them to see the condition of things and the accuracy of the equipment I used at the time. Had very little equipment then unlike now. All charges were thrown with a Ohaus 1010 scale. Cases were done using RCBS...
www.snipershide.com 
Any more info on this?
First if you can afford it the best scale for weighing powder is the Sartorius Entris 64-1s if you can find old stock. It has been replaced by the Sartorius BCE64-1S which is a couple of hundred more. With these scales you are 1 kernel difference on each load.
I have a legit question.
@PracticalTactical if you can accurately and repeatedly throw charge weights of powder to sub 0.0x gr, how are you measuring case capacity ?
Case capacity can vary by 0.5 gr of H2O, which would account for more variation on velo that a sub kernal volume accuracy (Im guessing here).
How accurately are you measuring seating depth of projectile and controlling neck tension ? Those have absolutely proven to vary your ES/SD.
I open the floor to question and comments.
@PracticalTactical if you can accurately and repeatedly throw charge weights of powder to sub 0.0x gr, how are you measuring case capacity ?
Case capacity can vary by 0.5 gr of H2O, which would account for more variation on velo that a sub kernal volume accuracy (Im guessing here).
How accurately are you measuring seating depth of projectile and controlling neck tension ? Those have absolutely proven to vary your ES/SD.
I open the floor to question and comments.
@iceng, good question
The amount of water a case holds is irrelevant as a variable in case sorting. The weight of the case is far more important. Water is just a crude method of ball parking capacity, not a precise method of sorting at all. So for case sorting, I focus on case weight after length trimming, then I sort into lots where all cases in each lot are within 0.1 grains. Those cases stay together for life.
Yes a smaller case has less volume, but that changes the instant the case is fired in your chamber. Until a case has been fired in my rifle, it means nothing to me.
Once it has been fired in your chamber, the outside dimensions are an almost perfect match to your chamber. From then on, the case to case dimensional variance is regulated by your reloading process.
As for neck tension and runout, I believe you cannot precisely control that unless you turn your necks and run a tight chamber.
Think of it this way... The more neck resizing you perform, the greater the dimensional variance you create, so after firing, the less you resize a case during your sizing process the better.
As to neck runout, much of that is caused by heavy ejection force that dents the neck of the case at ejection, so running controlled round feed action is best, or shorten the ejector spring on a Rem 700 or clone to weaken ejection force. If your necks get dented at ejection, you have to get that corrected.
When I neck turn I do it twice, once is a roughing pass, then I switch to the next larger mandrel and turn again to final size. That second pass is the key to dimensional uniformity. I have two neck turning tools BTW, so I can refine it and leave it alone..
Yes I anneal as well and always after neck turning as it does induce stress into the case and affect hardness.
If you have concerns about problems associated with donuts from neck turning, I chamber my rifles so the base of the bearing surface of the bullets are seated ahead of the donut area, so even if there's a donut, it has no meaningful affect on anything relating to seating pressure.
Reloading is full of variables, some you can control, some you can sort out, and some you just have to live with. I just focus on controlling as many as I can.
The amount of water a case holds is irrelevant as a variable in case sorting. The weight of the case is far more important. Water is just a crude method of ball parking capacity, not a precise method of sorting at all. So for case sorting, I focus on case weight after length trimming, then I sort into lots where all cases in each lot are within 0.1 grains. Those cases stay together for life.
Yes a smaller case has less volume, but that changes the instant the case is fired in your chamber. Until a case has been fired in my rifle, it means nothing to me.
Once it has been fired in your chamber, the outside dimensions are an almost perfect match to your chamber. From then on, the case to case dimensional variance is regulated by your reloading process.
As for neck tension and runout, I believe you cannot precisely control that unless you turn your necks and run a tight chamber.
Think of it this way... The more neck resizing you perform, the greater the dimensional variance you create, so after firing, the less you resize a case during your sizing process the better.
As to neck runout, much of that is caused by heavy ejection force that dents the neck of the case at ejection, so running controlled round feed action is best, or shorten the ejector spring on a Rem 700 or clone to weaken ejection force. If your necks get dented at ejection, you have to get that corrected.
When I neck turn I do it twice, once is a roughing pass, then I switch to the next larger mandrel and turn again to final size. That second pass is the key to dimensional uniformity. I have two neck turning tools BTW, so I can refine it and leave it alone..
Yes I anneal as well and always after neck turning as it does induce stress into the case and affect hardness.
If you have concerns about problems associated with donuts from neck turning, I chamber my rifles so the base of the bearing surface of the bullets are seated ahead of the donut area, so even if there's a donut, it has no meaningful affect on anything relating to seating pressure.
Reloading is full of variables, some you can control, some you can sort out, and some you just have to live with. I just focus on controlling as many as I can.
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Thanks for the reply @PracticalTactical , good info. Some I agree with, some I don't. That doesn't mean you are wrong however !.
Good, cheap, fast. Pick one. The fx120 with auto trickler is good, fast, but not cheap. The RCBS is fast and cheap, it's ok, does well, I'll say good but not great.
Lyman gen6 is ok, limited experience, but does ok.
Find something that works for you, and load. Even cheap setups used carefully and skillfully can produce exceptional ammo quality.
Good, cheap, fast. Pick one. The fx120 with auto trickler is good, fast, but not cheap. The RCBS is fast and cheap, it's ok, does well, I'll say good but not great.
Lyman gen6 is ok, limited experience, but does ok.
Find something that works for you, and load. Even cheap setups used carefully and skillfully can produce exceptional ammo quality.
Frankly, if not verifying the scale accuracy with a good set of proven scale weights, it matters little if the scale is electronic or beam. When using our son’s electronic scale, we check both and verify each charge with the beam scale. And, I am constantly chasing the correct charge weight on the electronic. (which both are kept on separate tables away from the vibrations from affecting the scales)
At home, my Dillion is also getting long in the tooth. I set up the scale at each reloading session with scale weights. Throw the charges with an old fashioned RCBS powder throw, weigh the charge, trickle using a very old fashioned hand trickled and if the scale centers (and the charge was centered with my carefully kept scale weights, it is considered good. Then, each case is inspected to assure that it has a similar powder charge)
Yes, those little weights are eye watering expensive, but with the money.
At home, my Dillion is also getting long in the tooth. I set up the scale at each reloading session with scale weights. Throw the charges with an old fashioned RCBS powder throw, weigh the charge, trickle using a very old fashioned hand trickled and if the scale centers (and the charge was centered with my carefully kept scale weights, it is considered good. Then, each case is inspected to assure that it has a similar powder charge)
Yes, those little weights are eye watering expensive, but with the money.
I have a recommendation for you if this is a problem. I used to do this before I got a better scale...
Take a piece of wire, maybe from a clothes hanger, and cut it to a length that weighs what your target charge weight is plus the weighing pan. You could also use a piece of brass or aluminum with the weight stamped into it, or even just sheet metal.
The idea is to make a custom validation weight that you can use to validate your exact charge weight and determine if your scale has drifted or requires calibration.
I would bend it to make it easy to grab onto.
Suppose your weighing pan weighs 100 grains and you are throwing 40 grains of powder. You have something handy that happens to weigh 140 grains. When you alternate back and forth between that validation weight and your charge weight, you should get the same number every time. If you don't, then you will see the scale variance or drift.
A word of caution on cheap scales... They often gravitate to zero to hide from the user that the scale has drifted, so anything close to zero will display as zero.
At least you will see if the two weights do not correlate every time within the limits of your scale.
Even if you change the charge weight a bit, you can still tell if the difference is correct. You can zero out the scale to the test weight and then make sure all your charges are over or under weight by the amount you want to hit.
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Get a UPS with sine wave cleaner / regulation. LED and fluro lights screw up the AC converter on digital scales. It's a known issue.
I see F-Class was brought up. hkljdf
How many of the US team use the Vibra HT220? How many of the previous five National Champions use one?
How have we established validity for the application? What sort of testing has been conducted? How much vertical has shrank at 1,000 using the two scales with the same load?
Better yet, how will this enhance OP's loads for his application?
When you start a response with "X you ignorant twit", most people will tune you out no matter how smart you think you are.
How many of the US team use the Vibra HT220? How many of the previous five National Champions use one?
How have we established validity for the application? What sort of testing has been conducted? How much vertical has shrank at 1,000 using the two scales with the same load?
Better yet, how will this enhance OP's loads for his application?
When you start a response with "X you ignorant twit", most people will tune you out no matter how smart you think you are.
Can you elaborate on this? The ups sign wave cleaner part that is
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People should pick their heroes carefully.
Should you be people's hero?
Please elaborate why your methods is better than theirs? How many national titles have you under your belt?
Why not answer all the questions I posed?
It’s pretty amazing the results of the F class guys I follow get with fairly Basic techniques and basic equipment.
It’s also shown good results with my ELR loads.
The high bar is not what anyone does today, it's in what they should be doing to do even better.
The USA is not the center of the universe. After all, F Class started here in Canada long before the USA got into it.
While the USA is not to be discounted on the world stage, at the highest level of competition, anyone can win.
I regularly shot F Class against a Gentleman at our local range and won consistently over him, but when he went to Bisley, he won the match there.
To that point you need to keep in mind that the winner is not necessarily the best there is, he's just the best to show up for the match.
To participate on a national team requires a lot of money and available time to travel... So unless you are self employed or independently wealthy, you cannot consider such a thing, and yes I was asked to join the Canadian team long ago.
Much of what is done in the shooting world is out of tradition. Junior shooters mimic they ones they identify with and hold that to be the ultimate standard, but often times people don't win because of what they do, but in spite of it. Often times people will impart a sense of bias to decisions that obscures their ability to see a situation objectively. Success is often attributed to one thing... the thing they are watching for, but ignore the other factors that are more likely the real reason for success.
As for your questions tyler about specificity... I feel they have already been addressed and are self evident within the content of this thread. So re-read it if you must and you will find the answers to your questions.
The USA is not the center of the universe. After all, F Class started here in Canada long before the USA got into it.
While the USA is not to be discounted on the world stage, at the highest level of competition, anyone can win.
I regularly shot F Class against a Gentleman at our local range and won consistently over him, but when he went to Bisley, he won the match there.
To that point you need to keep in mind that the winner is not necessarily the best there is, he's just the best to show up for the match.
To participate on a national team requires a lot of money and available time to travel... So unless you are self employed or independently wealthy, you cannot consider such a thing, and yes I was asked to join the Canadian team long ago.
Much of what is done in the shooting world is out of tradition. Junior shooters mimic they ones they identify with and hold that to be the ultimate standard, but often times people don't win because of what they do, but in spite of it. Often times people will impart a sense of bias to decisions that obscures their ability to see a situation objectively. Success is often attributed to one thing... the thing they are watching for, but ignore the other factors that are more likely the real reason for success.
As for your questions tyler about specificity... I feel they have already been addressed and are self evident within the content of this thread. So re-read it if you must and you will find the answers to your questions.
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There are countries that were countries, before the US existed. Yet the US is a better country to live. Hmmm. Time in the game doesn't determine outcomes. You point it out. So why would you bring it up? When guys are consistently winning using other scales, are they only because a user of the scale hasn't shown up? Or is it that it is unnecessary to win?
No, actually, you haven't answered the question. Again, reread the question.
You've talked about what the scale is capable of, but not what it actually does for the shooter, much less the OP.
Top F class shooters are doing far leas than what a lot of hobbyist shooters do. They just do what matters and do it more consistently.
The amount of misinformation in some of the posts in this thread is quite entertaining.
Ok, so you think I'm FOS huh... believe whatever you want.
Here's a quote directly from the dealers web site. Kinda sounds familiar huh...
This is the part where you guys start accusing me of plagiarizing this statement right.
If you are a competition benchrest shooter and shooting over 400 yards the FX-120i is NOT what you want to buy since you will be ± 1 or 2 kernels of powder. You either want a Prometheus powder measure or the Sartorius Entris64-1S.
A single kernel of Varget weighs ± 0.02 grains and the FX-120i increments in 0.02 grain divisions (0.02 gn > 0.04 gn > 0.06 gn, etc) and the linearity (or accuracy) is ± two(2) divisions or ± 0.04 grains. When shooting .308 ammo, on average, a single kernel of Varget roughly changes the velocity by 1.3 fps. So just a few kernels of variation can easily double the extreme spread in velocity. Out to 500+- yards it does not seem to make much difference, but beyond that and things can get ugly fast. Buying the right balance is just another tool to put more bullets closer to the desired point of impact.
It's all a matter of perspective and at what level one wishes to perform. Buy the FX-120i and it is a good weighing device but it is doubtful you are not going to win shooting competitions. Any way one looks at it, serious long-range shooting is not cheap. In their world, it often comes down to one point or even one "X" between winning or not.
Remember the motto -- buy once cry once -- If you stray from this motto it will bit you.
Here's a quote directly from the dealers web site. Kinda sounds familiar huh...
This is the part where you guys start accusing me of plagiarizing this statement right.
If you are a competition benchrest shooter and shooting over 400 yards the FX-120i is NOT what you want to buy since you will be ± 1 or 2 kernels of powder. You either want a Prometheus powder measure or the Sartorius Entris64-1S.
A single kernel of Varget weighs ± 0.02 grains and the FX-120i increments in 0.02 grain divisions (0.02 gn > 0.04 gn > 0.06 gn, etc) and the linearity (or accuracy) is ± two(2) divisions or ± 0.04 grains. When shooting .308 ammo, on average, a single kernel of Varget roughly changes the velocity by 1.3 fps. So just a few kernels of variation can easily double the extreme spread in velocity. Out to 500+- yards it does not seem to make much difference, but beyond that and things can get ugly fast. Buying the right balance is just another tool to put more bullets closer to the desired point of impact.
It's all a matter of perspective and at what level one wishes to perform. Buy the FX-120i and it is a good weighing device but it is doubtful you are not going to win shooting competitions. Any way one looks at it, serious long-range shooting is not cheap. In their world, it often comes down to one point or even one "X" between winning or not.
Remember the motto -- buy once cry once -- If you stray from this motto it will bit you.
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Is this a GIF of you eating the .02 grain kernel that the FX120I couldn't resolve to?
Seems like all those people F-Class John has interviewed, including Eril Cortina among other 'champions,' must be doing something wrong.... Since they all use a FX120i. I dunno. Versus some random dude on the internet that claims to know more but won't produce a resume... 
Seems like all those people F-Class John has interviewed, including Eril Cortina among other 'champions,' must be doing something wrong.... Since they all use a FX120i. I dunno. Versus some random dude on the internet that claims to know more but won't produce a resume...
Before anyone jumps for one small error and says it makes everything wrong, Erik is using a Prometheus.
But probably 90% of top F class guys are using an Fx120.
Lou Murdica is using Fx120 in his tunnel. It’s a wonder he can accomplish anything at all apparently.
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