Awesome. Exactly the barrel I have. Very happy with it. There is a lot of 75 gr federal available for .75 each right now. Not as accurate past 100 yards but good practice ammo. Let us k is how it works for you
- Thread starter fifdynutz
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Agree w 90 gr- best for 500 plus yds
It likely won’t, depending on elevation. I couldn’t get the 90’s to shoot in either of my RA’s with 24” barrels (<1000ft ASL). The 80 eld at 2920 or 2980fps is a very good load and should beat out the 90’s by a considerable margin till you get close or beyond 1000yds iirc. You may have to push hard to hit 2920 in a 20”, but there’s probably a node in the 2880fps range as well.
Damn. Where have you seen this? I haven't seen any 224 Valk under $1/rd in a long while...
Yeah, I check there pretty often.... haven't seen 224 Valk under $1/rd in some time... I managed to pick up some 75gr Federal for <$0.70/round before the election, but wish I had pirchased more.
I run 24" barrels for 223 in several AR15. A 26" barrel might be a little bit better with some bullets, but a 24" will push a 85 RDF about 2750 to 2800fps easy enough, and with a G7 b/c of .254, you can figure it is tough to top those numbers. Run steel mags to allow loading to 2.30" +/-. The 77 RDF will stay super to 1000 yards, which is another mag fed option.
.223 WOA all the way in my book
Mile high. 12.99 per box of 20 federal 224 Valkyrie 54 gr. Last order shipped Jan 16,2021
6mm Turbo 40 Improved is the only way to go. Does anyone know if Whitely is still building rifles?
The 6.5 Grendel will hold it's own, I shoot mine out past 1100 yds. With the new Berger 130 AR Hybrid at a modest 2450fps it's still supersonic at about 1200 yds. It's the cartridge that starts slow but ends fast.
The 6.5 Grendel will hold it's own, I shoot mine out past 1100 yds. With the new Berger 130 AR Hybrid at a modest 2450fps it's still supersonic at about 1200 yds. It's the cartridge that starts slow but ends fast.
6mm Fat Rat and 6mm Grinch are almost exactly the same as 6mm Turbo 40. Craddock Precision makes 6mm Grinch barrels.
Also, the grendel doesn't have feeding issues as many say. I have put countless rounds through the c-products duramags and they all work perfectly in multiple uppers, with or without feed ramps. The issue is that people buy the israeli mags from alexander arms (i think they are called elanders) which are seated just slightly too low and cause feeding problems. If you want hunting reliability, you will get exactly that out of the duramags of any capacity
My version of that very rifle is one of my most favorite to shoot. It has a 20" 223 wylde, Rainier Ultramatch barrel and it is a shooter. It really likes the IMI 77gr Razorcore
I have a 24" RRA 223 wylde, 18" RRA 223 wylde and 18" 6.5 G and for hitting steel out to 800 neither is better than the others. The 6.5G sends more energy down range and you can hear hits and see misses better, but 223 is solid as well.
22-24" bull in 224 valkyrie, 6.5 grendel, and set. out of curiousity what do people consider expensive for a barrel? asking because every big name people mention are peanuts comparted to some of the bolt customs i've had
Ballistic calculators can get your "flatness" down pretty close.
Does pretty good with wind estimates.
My 22 Nosler AR does pretty good out to 800 yards (haven't been farther yet).
I even shoot 600 F-Open with one.
X-caliber barrel
Does pretty good with wind estimates.
My 22 Nosler AR does pretty good out to 800 yards (haven't been farther yet).
I even shoot 600 F-Open with one.
X-caliber barrel
Having played hard with two 6.5G's (20" and 24"), and also having shot a BIG bunch with the 5.56 (16" and 24"). I would feel confident with either chambering,; but my preference would be for the 5.56. It's just that much more familiar. This is my preference, and I own 2. The only mod I made was to swap out the grip for a Luth AR Chubby Grip. It aims with a Mueller 8-32x44 side focus MOA scope, both rifles. All of my other AR's use the Schmidt Nickel-Boron 2-stage, and some form of through-the-trigger-guard bolt release. Ergonomically, they all tend to be just about the same gun. My first M6 arrived sometime around 2000, and the second was a kit I bought and assembled in 2018. The current list price for the M6 is a tad cheaper now than I paid in 2000. It shoots every danged thing I feed it, and makes Wolf Steel Case look like match ammo on the target.
Long Range/Night Hunting is a big bite to chew, especially if I wanted to retrieve the critter. But, in all honesty, I've always preferred to stalk the Wily Paper beast. In so doing, I consider costs, and the 5.56 is a bunch cheaper to reload. As one ages, one tends to gaze upon that trip to the target and back with growing displeasure. For me, that trip is on foot. Others, YMMV.
I load my Win cases with CCI BR-4 (Or WSR, OK to use at about anything), 23.5gr Varget, and the HDY 75gr HPBT Match. So far, I have limited my serious shooting with these two rifles to 600yd.
Greg
Long Range/Night Hunting is a big bite to chew, especially if I wanted to retrieve the critter. But, in all honesty, I've always preferred to stalk the Wily Paper beast. In so doing, I consider costs, and the 5.56 is a bunch cheaper to reload. As one ages, one tends to gaze upon that trip to the target and back with growing displeasure. For me, that trip is on foot. Others, YMMV.
I load my Win cases with CCI BR-4 (Or WSR, OK to use at about anything), 23.5gr Varget, and the HDY 75gr HPBT Match. So far, I have limited my serious shooting with these two rifles to 600yd.
Greg
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I Think all of the 6mms beat it and some of the .224 calibers as far as less drop and drift. 6mmAR/243LBC/6mm Predator/6mm Grendel, 6mmARC, 6PDQ, TAC6, 6mm Hagar, 6 WOA, 224 Valkyrie, 5.56x42, 22 PDQ, 224LBC, 22 Grendel.
Why a new barrel when you can toss together another upper.
The barrel is the biggest cost item.
The barrel is the biggest cost item.
Probably because for most of us, a new upper means another optic too, and that's often just as expensive as the whole upper, if not more.
Sure it can. I'll repeat what I said a while ago:
"As we see all too often here, most people recommend what they have because it validates their own choices, not because it’s the best answer for the question that was asked. The Grendel recommendations are a great example of that. It’s a fine cartridge and is capable at distance, but falls behind in comparison to it’s 6mm sibling, and the difference is pretty significant."
If flat trajectory and ability to reach out as far as possible are part of the criteria (obviously they are in this thread), then the 6mm ARC or any of the 6mm Grendel-based wildcats can beat the 6.5 Grendel. The only real advantage the 6.5mm has in comparison is bullet mass. Not that the 6.5 Grendel can't hit at distance, it can, I've made repeatable good hits at 750 with my little 12.5" SBR, but the 6mm version of the same setup just does it easier with less drop and less wind drift, and a little less recoil too for those higher round count days.
And in case anyone thinks I'm just recommending what I chose to buy - I have multiple rifles in each of these calibers.
I'll admit I originally thought the 6.5 was the way to go a number of years ago based on comments like the one quoted here, and that's what I built first, but once I tried the 6mm versions the advantages became obvious and I quickly changed my mind.
OP wants a gun for long distance accuracy at 400+, flat trajectory, and ammo/reloading component availability, for hunting and long range shooting. No one said 6.5G can't be beat for flat trajectory. But for 400 yards with ammo on the shelves and 6.5 projectiles, for any type of hunting up to white tails and probably muleys, grendel has got to be the winner. No reloading requirement as with the wildcats. The 224 Valk won't smack as hard downrange and the 6mmArc will only (arguably) pull ahead beyond 400 yards. I like my 6mmARC fine, but if I was considering a new cartridge for a gun I cared about and ever wanted to travel with, there is no universe in which I wouldn't take the 6.5G
Comparing similar ballistic coefficients, the 6 ARC or any of the 6 Grendel wildcats are faster and flatter shooting than the 6.5 Grendel starting right at the muzzle. The 400+ yard "catch up" thing is incorrect.
Most of the rest of the above is either very subjective, or wrong as well - like thinking 6.5 projectiles are more common on the shelves than 6mm? Maybe you frequent some particular shop that caters to 6.5, I don't know, but just about everywhere 6mm bullets are more common AND cheaper too.
Like I said above, the only real advantage the 6.5 Grendel has is bullet mass. In every other aspect it lags behind the 6mm versions. And, importantly, the 6mm versions tend push the bullets out closer to optimum speeds for typical cup & core designs, unlike the 6.5 Grendel which is down at the lower end of the velocity envelope for a lot of the bullet options.
Obviously the 6.5 Grendel is your preference, and that's fine. Nobody would argue with you for stating that. But claiming that "it can't be beat" in a thread about the best long range caliber - well, you've got a number of people who disagree, and for good reasons.
Seems the OP chose a 224 Valkyrie-
"
Pulled the trigger on the RA ultramatch 20" .224 valk...I think it will fit my needs better than the .223 and current supply for supporting components is night and day better for the valk than the arc.
I appreciate everyone's input on this and I look forward to the build. I'll definitely throw a pic up once I get it cerakoted and assembled
Well, he will love that barrel. For the money, the RA ultramatch is great. Mine certainly holds it own against a craddock cut bartlein and a number of proofs.
I own and shoot two 6.5 chamberings. The first is my rather nicely configured Savage .260 Rem. The other is the 6.5G, and I have a pair of them.
Honestly, I broke my 24" 6.5G test rifle's extractor with hot loads. I had been watching case marks for evidence of excessive pressure, and never saw anything I could call clear cut overpressure signs. I later found out that they were there, but also that they run differently in this cartridge. It was clearly a disappointing episode in my handloading education. It has made me somewhat gun shy about adopting other new chamberings; and maybe it's time to admit to age as a good reason to hang up my load development hat.
I have a pair of 5.56 Uppers as replacements for the 6.5G's, and a spare 20" 6.5G barrel to replace the 24", should I choose. At least I have some options. Others are having better results and I cheer them on, but for me, it's not a truly happy experience when something looks fine, then turns on you. For me, the 6.5G would be preferable in a bolt rifle. It would be stupid of me to blame the cartridge, it's just that my skills aren't so well suited to finding its best performance.
Th .260 has been my LR specialist rifle since around 2001/2002. It's been worked over with L-W barrel and a McMillan A3 stock. It has shot well, and as expected, all along.
Greg
PS, for what it's worth, I'm not parting wih any of these items. There is good selection of worthy decendants and relatives who could probably provide comfortable homes for them.
Honestly, I broke my 24" 6.5G test rifle's extractor with hot loads. I had been watching case marks for evidence of excessive pressure, and never saw anything I could call clear cut overpressure signs. I later found out that they were there, but also that they run differently in this cartridge. It was clearly a disappointing episode in my handloading education. It has made me somewhat gun shy about adopting other new chamberings; and maybe it's time to admit to age as a good reason to hang up my load development hat.
I have a pair of 5.56 Uppers as replacements for the 6.5G's, and a spare 20" 6.5G barrel to replace the 24", should I choose. At least I have some options. Others are having better results and I cheer them on, but for me, it's not a truly happy experience when something looks fine, then turns on you. For me, the 6.5G would be preferable in a bolt rifle. It would be stupid of me to blame the cartridge, it's just that my skills aren't so well suited to finding its best performance.
Th .260 has been my LR specialist rifle since around 2001/2002. It's been worked over with L-W barrel and a McMillan A3 stock. It has shot well, and as expected, all along.
Greg
PS, for what it's worth, I'm not parting wih any of these items. There is good selection of worthy decendants and relatives who could probably provide comfortable homes for them.
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A broken extractor from “hot loads” in a gas gun is typically caused by the rifle being over gassed; the solution is to tune the gas system for those loads. This is especially important if you tried Leverevolution powder, or CFE223 for that matter, but applies to any load really.
When the bolt is over gassed enough, it can try to yank the case out of the chamber while pressure is still high enough to cause more resistance, which means more load on the extractor.
I deliberately misspoke for simplicity sake, and yes; all you've said is correct.
Part of over gassing is the duration (Dwell Time) during which the overpressure is in effect. The extra 4" of barrel (24" bore) extends that time significantly. And yes, the loads were excessive, egged on by apparent lack of customary pressure signs on the fired brass; There were none except for sooting of the necks and shoulders, as well as a few partial case walls. Having never been presented with this sign, I incorrectly assumed that my pressure as good when it wasn't. I could not understand why the max loads showed no typical pressure signs on the cases, (I guess the 6.5G falls into its own category in that respect). When I reported this sign, the extractor was already broken (I believe), the advice here correctly diagnosed the cause (hot load combined with a longer dwell), and I proceeded to order the improved extractor, and break down all my remaining test loads. Clearly, by then I recognized that the aspects which killed the extractor were the extended dwell time (time the round takes to clear the bore beyond the gas port), and (I assume) reduction in extractor cross section as compared with the standard AR15 5.56 extractor. The enhanced replacement extractor showed considerably more beef in that area, which I took as assurance that my assumption was at least partly correct.
In any case, your statement about yanking the case out while pressure was still high is right on the mark, especially so since the dwell was extraordinarily longer than would have been customary. I used neither LeveRevolution nor CFE223 during load development, but W748 and TAC. Since the episode and repair, load testing was resumed using the same above propellants in more reasonable proportions (in agreement with published loads) with no additional incidents. I had learned some valuable lessons about developing loads for gas guns. As a further precaution, the 24" barrel has been reserved for varmint loads (90gr) only. FWIW I have an aversion to altering gas systems, and have yet to do any of that.
I will say simply that my load development experience with the 6.5G is atypical, and I have developed a skittish approach to it.
Serves me right for not taking my own advice about hotloading. Nice catch.
Greg
Part of over gassing is the duration (Dwell Time) during which the overpressure is in effect. The extra 4" of barrel (24" bore) extends that time significantly. And yes, the loads were excessive, egged on by apparent lack of customary pressure signs on the fired brass; There were none except for sooting of the necks and shoulders, as well as a few partial case walls. Having never been presented with this sign, I incorrectly assumed that my pressure as good when it wasn't. I could not understand why the max loads showed no typical pressure signs on the cases, (I guess the 6.5G falls into its own category in that respect). When I reported this sign, the extractor was already broken (I believe), the advice here correctly diagnosed the cause (hot load combined with a longer dwell), and I proceeded to order the improved extractor, and break down all my remaining test loads. Clearly, by then I recognized that the aspects which killed the extractor were the extended dwell time (time the round takes to clear the bore beyond the gas port), and (I assume) reduction in extractor cross section as compared with the standard AR15 5.56 extractor. The enhanced replacement extractor showed considerably more beef in that area, which I took as assurance that my assumption was at least partly correct.
In any case, your statement about yanking the case out while pressure was still high is right on the mark, especially so since the dwell was extraordinarily longer than would have been customary. I used neither LeveRevolution nor CFE223 during load development, but W748 and TAC. Since the episode and repair, load testing was resumed using the same above propellants in more reasonable proportions (in agreement with published loads) with no additional incidents. I had learned some valuable lessons about developing loads for gas guns. As a further precaution, the 24" barrel has been reserved for varmint loads (90gr) only. FWIW I have an aversion to altering gas systems, and have yet to do any of that.
I will say simply that my load development experience with the 6.5G is atypical, and I have developed a skittish approach to it.
Serves me right for not taking my own advice about hotloading. Nice catch.
Greg
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You’ve completely missed the point. The lesson you “learned” was the wrong one; your diagnosis was incorrect.
Your loads were not too hot. Your rifle was poorly tuned, causing the extractor issue.
Forget all the talk about dwell time and the extra barrel length; while it’s technically accurate in a general sense it’s irrelevant here, as gas port size and other variables have as much effect or more. Each barrel needs to be tuned for itself. The solution to your issue was not to back off the load, but to restrict the gas at the gas block to slow down the bolt carrier unlocking process.
Well shame on me for missing your point, Yondering.
As for mistuned, the entire upper and BCG were acquired as a complete factory unit, and ran fine with every factory load I tried in it. My diagnosis has been stated onsite several times, but you're the only one who ever found fault. I guess all the other folks who felt no need to correct my obviously irrelevant observations are equally in error.
Nice to be the smartest kid on the block, isn't it?
I have two 6.5G Uppers, the only difference being the other one has a 20" barrel and exhibited no similar symptoms. Therefore, the only subsequent difference is dwell time.
I know for a fact that I was already significantly above published max, but no, my loads were not too hot. Nobody asked for your pedantry. I make a point of not trying to diagnose others' problems over the Internet. Perhaps someday you will learn that too.
I don't have the inclination to add the complexity of gas tuning to my already messed up problem, especially when my usual method, load tuning, brought the now, and long non-existent, issue back into line. You have your way of doing things, I have mine, and I'll be sticking to mine in the future.
Hell, you're even right, as I stated right in the beginning above, but you also have the Internet manners of a troll.
From now on you'll be on ignore, where you belong. Nobody chides me like a child and gets the opportunity to do it twice.
Go howl your displeasure at the moon.
Greg Langelius
As for mistuned, the entire upper and BCG were acquired as a complete factory unit, and ran fine with every factory load I tried in it. My diagnosis has been stated onsite several times, but you're the only one who ever found fault. I guess all the other folks who felt no need to correct my obviously irrelevant observations are equally in error.
Nice to be the smartest kid on the block, isn't it?
I have two 6.5G Uppers, the only difference being the other one has a 20" barrel and exhibited no similar symptoms. Therefore, the only subsequent difference is dwell time.
I know for a fact that I was already significantly above published max, but no, my loads were not too hot. Nobody asked for your pedantry. I make a point of not trying to diagnose others' problems over the Internet. Perhaps someday you will learn that too.
I don't have the inclination to add the complexity of gas tuning to my already messed up problem, especially when my usual method, load tuning, brought the now, and long non-existent, issue back into line. You have your way of doing things, I have mine, and I'll be sticking to mine in the future.
Hell, you're even right, as I stated right in the beginning above, but you also have the Internet manners of a troll.
From now on you'll be on ignore, where you belong. Nobody chides me like a child and gets the opportunity to do it twice.
Go howl your displeasure at the moon.
Greg Langelius
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I assembled a 28"+2 22 Nosgar gasser (22 Nolser with necked down 6mm Hagar brass) for the wife to use slow fire prone.
It's right up there with flatness.
Confirmed dope with a 100 yd zero and Berger 85.5:
Muzzle velocity is right @3000 fps (LabRadar).
300 yd velocity is about 2500 fps (ShotMarker), dope is 0.8 mils.
600 yd velocity is about 2000 fps (ShotMarker), dope is 3.1 mils @ 75F, 1950fps and 3.3 mils @ 37F.
700 yd velocity unknown but with 4.0 mils can ring an 8" plate pretty easily/
Farthest we shot is a 2moa plate @ 800 with 5.1 mils, but that's a giant plate.
Calculator says transonic about 1300 (mach 1.1)
I'm using a +2 buffer and gas cut way down to just dribble cases out but still lock back.
Video of one shot, ejected case goes about a foot. Usually end up in the ammo box lid
We be getting better. Here's 10 shots at 300 with Ginex primers and 10 with CCI 450.
Actually shot with my No-Gas AR using 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass.
Fat fingered the load in the pic. should be 32.46gr.
Damn Flyer
It's right up there with flatness.
Confirmed dope with a 100 yd zero and Berger 85.5:
Muzzle velocity is right @3000 fps (LabRadar).
300 yd velocity is about 2500 fps (ShotMarker), dope is 0.8 mils.
600 yd velocity is about 2000 fps (ShotMarker), dope is 3.1 mils @ 75F, 1950fps and 3.3 mils @ 37F.
700 yd velocity unknown but with 4.0 mils can ring an 8" plate pretty easily/
Farthest we shot is a 2moa plate @ 800 with 5.1 mils, but that's a giant plate.
Calculator says transonic about 1300 (mach 1.1)
I'm using a +2 buffer and gas cut way down to just dribble cases out but still lock back.
Video of one shot, ejected case goes about a foot. Usually end up in the ammo box lid
We be getting better. Here's 10 shots at 300 with Ginex primers and 10 with CCI 450.
Actually shot with my No-Gas AR using 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass.
Fat fingered the load in the pic. should be 32.46gr.
Damn Flyer
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that’s the dumbest thing i’ve read all day and i just got off foxnews.com
any of the 6mm grendel based cartridges are better than the 6.5 grendel. the 243lbc, 6rat and 6mmfat rat, the 6mm turbo and turbo40 improved etc.
Again, OP wanted a flat shooting long range gun, but also wanted it to cover hunting at 400 yards and was concerned with availability. No one said grendel was the flattest shooting, but for everything else OP also wanted the gun to cover and that should be considered for a new build--like hunting, an ability to go grab ammo or components off the shelf at academy, not to mention barrel options--grendel is going to beat your list of wildcats all day, so is the 224 valk. Maybe that's why OP ultimately chose a ranier ultramatch 224 valk over all the 6mm wildcats that everyone in this thread pushed because they want their cartridge to take off.
But I guess you think CNN or MSNBC are smarter than Fox, so you are the genius in the room. I'll just go get on the waitlist for a custom 6mm fatrat barrel that I'll still shoot out long before the 6.5g ultramatch barrel I can get in two days. That nominal performance increase at 400 yards must be worth it.
I’m running an 18 inch suppressed 6arc for my coyote rifle.
Personally, my choice would be the proof 18 inch 6 mm arc barrel!
FWIW I built a proof carbon 6arc setup after the valk and they are both great lol
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