Rifle Scopes Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

BadBowtie03

BadBowtie03

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 16, 2010
785
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Palmetto, FLA
#1
Hey guys I am considering dropping a lot of money on a new scope. And a lot to me... I mean under 2k. I dont want to do it... but im considering it. Originally I was thinking I was going to buy the new bushnell 4200 elite FFP mil mil that is 25x or the new PST coming out.. but both have some wait time. Other than those two scopes... I dont know of anything else out there under 1k... So, Im considering bumping up my budget and getting an even better scope. Would I regret it? If I decide to do it I wont spend more than 2k. I just cant.

So, what would yall reccommend? I would consider a 14-16x but I would really like it to be at least a 20 or higher. I definitely want FFP and Mil/Mil, and the scope is going on an AR10T. Right now were shooting paper and steel targets at 600 yards, but we want to develop some new loads (other than 168's) and graduate to 1000 yards. Do yall think it would be wise to spend the money? Would I benefit you think VS those other two cheaper ones I mentioned? I'm in college and dont have a ton of money right now... but I could maybe sell a gun to help pay for the scope.

Zero stops would be cool too... and illumination would be nice as well. I would also want either a regular mildot or another mil based reticle. I want the best clarity and durability... i want to be impressed if I spend that much money. So, what are my options? are there many? or just a couple? Thanks a lot for the help and if yall think I shouldnt do it and just wait for the PST or bushnell let me know your opinion. thanks
 
#6
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FFP maybe if you can find a used one... </div></div>

I second lowlights recommendation of the vortex. The razor 5-20 is a great scope for the money. All the features you listed, and right about the price.

Call Scott @ liberty optics tomorrow and see what he can do for you.
 
#8
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Looked through one this weekend for the first time. Initial impression its a very nice scope. Clarity and resolution were fantastic. Color rendering IMO left something to be desired but it was not surprising given the region of manufacture.

BTW it was the SH edition. The MP8 ret is very nice esp at full power.
 
#11
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

There's a big list of people waiting for that scope right now. I bet its gonna be a nightmare when it finally arrives in april or may... I dunno if I wanna deal with all that... the ior is only about 1400 and I read u get a free red dot and rings too... do u like your ior? How are the optics?
 
#12
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badbowtie03</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a big list of people waiting for that scope right now. I bet its gonna be a nightmare when it finally arrives in april or may... I dunno if I wanna deal with all that... the ior is only about 1400 and I read u get a free red dot and rings too... do u like your ior? How are the optics? </div></div>

You pay your money and you take your chances.

Based on what I have seen and what I have looked through the Vortex Razor appears to be on par with the other big name FFP scopes (you know the usual players). Their warranty in its language is second to none. They appear to be actively involved with this site and this shooting community. I dare say you will not be disappointed if you elect to go that route.
 
#13
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

Yeah I'm leaning towrds the razor... im gonna be broke for a while i think.
frown.gif
 
#15
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

I have a Vortex Razor, I replaced a SFP Nightforce NXS with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Razor. I can't tell a difference in optic quality between the NXS and the Razor, and the Razor is packed with neat features, and Vortex's warranty and customer service are widely known to be excellent.
 
#16
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

badbowtie03,

<span style="font-weight: bold">Best scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability</span>

That a loaded question and one not easily answered.

What's your budget $1k or $2K because it does make a difference?

If it's $2k, then considering FFP & MIL/MIL these are your candidates:

Nightforce F1 3.5-15x50mm $2290. or so with rings.
Vortex Razor 5-20x50mm $1999. or so without rings
IOR 3-18x42mm FFP MIL/MIL version $1545. or so with rings

<span style="font-style: italic">Note: I left USO out of this discussion, because once you add the things that the NF, Vortex, and IOR offer as standard, the USO comes out several $100.s more than a NF. None of that makes a USO bad, it's just in a different price range. </span>

Clarity:

1st) IOR & Vortex Razor (tossup)
2nd) Nightforce

Truth be told, all are very good, and they will all let you see your target well enough to hit it.

Durability:

1st) Nightforce F1 - King of taking a licking.....
2nd) Vortex Razor (only because it is so new, no significant track record built up as yet)
3rd) IOR (the Gen 1's were rather un-durable, the Gen 4's may be way better, but we will have to wait and see how they hold up)

Now some things you mentioned:

Zero Stop

1st) Vortex Razor, state of the art zero stop
2nd) Nightforce, is very close
3rd) IOR has no zero stop, so it dies in the starting gate....

Illumination:

1st) Vortex Razor
2nd) Nightforce F1 it's illumination is not user friendly, but it does work every time.
3rd) IOR again dies, because it has no illumination, but IOR is coming out with a 3-18x50mm FFP MIL/MIL with Illumination, in April-May, for around $1750. w/rings

Knobs, Dials and Clicks,

1st) IOR has 10 MILS per turn elevation
2nd) Nightforce. NF is coming out with new 10 MIL elevation turrets, but it's not here yet. It should displace IOR when it comes out.
3nd) I think Vortex has a 5 MILS per turn turret, not sure, and I don't feel like looking it up, I sure if I'm wrong I will be corrected. If it does have a 10 MILs per turn turret, then it's a toss-up.

All 3 have very nice non-mushy clicks, all have side focus. In the IOR and it's windage turret, left is marked in RED numbers and hashs, right in white. A nice touch don't you think.....

Weight:

1st) IOR 28 oz.
2nd) Nightforce 31 oz
3nd) Vortex Razor 35 oz.

Adjustment range:

1st) Vortex Razor 36 Milrads (or 129.6")
2nd) Nightforce 110"
3rd) IOR 22 Milrads (or 79.2")

MIL Reticles:

1st) IOR - the MP8 Special is one of the better ones, and with 15 MILS of hashs under center, you almost never have to dial, if you don't want to.

2nd) Vortex Razor - EBR 3 is very good, similar to the NF MLR, but has 9 MILS under center. The EBR-2 is a bit cluttered IMHO, and the extra stuff in the reticle is only useful at higher powers.

3nd) Nightforce MLR - A very good but not great reticle, it is uncluttered though, but only 5 MILS under center.

Note: Some may not find the number of MILS under center a big thing. I prefer speed, and being able to use reticle holds out as far as I can shoot, is a nice feature. However, if you prefer to dial for most long shots, then it's not a big thing at all. It depends on what your trying to accomplish.


Well there you have it. It is all very subjective, most of the analysis is IMHO. In the interests of full disclosure, I use a Gen 4 IOR 3-18x42mm FFP MIL/MIL. I like it very much, and I hope to hell it lasts.

All three scopes do many things well. And except for Illumination and zero stop issues, what one scope can do, the other two can do. However, if durability is your main issue, it's hard to ignore the NF track record, or the Vortex Razor's outstanding CS. However, such outstandingness has a price tag attached.

As far as the under $1k FFP MIL/MIL market, it's a minefield, of underserviced, under tested, or not on the market yet, scopes. There may be some hidden jems there, but it's too early to tell.

I will say this, if you can live with only 9x, the SS 3-9x42mm is a great little scope for only $599.

Best of luck,

Bob
 
#17
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3nd) Nightforce MLR - A good but not great reticle, very thin at all powers (some will like that, YMMV) but unclutted, 5 MILS under center.
</div></div>

Bob, good write up of the three but just needed to clarify that the MLR reticle in the F1 is thicker than the SFP models and doesn't get lost.
 
#18
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Rob,

Thanks for that observation. I changed my post to reflect that. Always good to first hand experience. And you have allot more time behind a NF than I have.

Thanks again,

Bob
 
#19
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

if you're serious, i'd save up some $ and buy once....... USO, S&B, Nightforce, etc. there are soon good buys on used / demo scopes out there.
 
#20
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Knobs, Dials and Clicks,

All 3 have very nice non-mushy clicks, all have side focus. In the IOR and it's windage turret, left is marked in RED numbers and hashs, right in white. A nice touch don't you think.....

Weight:

1st) IOR 28 oz.
2nd) Nightforce 31 oz
3nd) Vortex Razor 35 oz.


</div></div>

Good write up but, having owned a couple of both the IOR SH-edition and the NXS (though only recently the F1) I would point out that the turrets on the NXS are far superior to the IOR in both engineering design and user experience. The IOR feels and is engineered much more on the level of a Falcon Menace while the NXS feels and is designed much more on the level of a USO EREK, IMHO. True, they are only 5 Mil per rev, but as I've considered if I'm going to send in for a retrofit when available I've come to consider the 5 Mil actually an asset as having distinct space between each click makes it much easier to quickly dial without having to look at the turret. Also the way the IOR turret is designed, with the pressed on ring for click indication markings, I have yet to see one where it was possible to get the markings to line up exactly on the index marking on the turret and even saw one example where the gearing in side was such that you would actually drift back and forth a couple tenths Mrad on the indicator markings relative to the number of clicks (dial 78 clicks from 0 and the indicator marking might actually show 8.0 or 7.6 due to small variances in how far the turret rotated compounding)

Also, I don't recall if your weight is the same spec I originally saw on the IOR but I do remember that the weight published for the scope was about 4oz light of the ACTUAL weight of the scope delivered.
 
#21
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

hmmm... thats a lot of info to take in all at once... I think because of the features, that I might be leaning towards the razor HD. Especially if the glass is just as good as NF or better ive heard. I really like the idea of the illumination as well. I talked to scott today and he was saying that I get all that cool stuff with the razor and rings and stuff as well. I think that extra 200 and some dollars for the NF vs the razor is turning me off too plus it has less magnification. I dunno. its such a hard decision... but i think i might just do it and go razor.
 
#22
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Oh and some people over on ar15.com are saying that I should go with a FFP MOA/MOA nightforce... I dont know what to think about that. I kinda wanted to stay FFP mil/mil because I just bought a falcon menace for my ar target gun. Then my two scope would match so i could keep it all straight in my head. Is there an advantage to mil mil vs moa moa? or is it the same kinda thing, with one just being english and the other metric?

Oh and I think ill keep my budget right at 2k and no more. I dont even want to spend that much...
 
#23
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

If you were going to consider going to moa, obviously keep the turrets/reticle the same. From what I have experienced with our snipers on our dept, two of them have the NPR reticle from NF. They are SFP and not FFP, but they were actually able to get their shots off faster than everyone using mil systems.

If you were like BobinNC, and held everything and did not dial everything in, you probably could get your shot off just as quick. With our training, we had to dial.

With all of the standards you have set for your scope however, the SFP would probably be a deal breaker. Just some food for thought however.
 
#24
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

+1 on Lowlight's recommendation: Vortex Razor HD. Great scope, nice packaging, great customer service (if you need it). I don't know of a better option within the given price range (or even a little above - as I think Razor HD may give USO SN3 a run for the money). (I don't have the scope at hand - but I think BobinNC is incorrect and Razor HD has 10 MIL turrets.)

There are several vendors here that other members bought from and are happy with, that you could do business.
 
#26
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nightforce F1 3.5-15x50mm $2290. or so with rings.
Vortex Razor 5-20x50mm $1999. or so without rings
IOR 3-18x42mm FFP MIL/MIL version $1545. or so with rings

<span style="font-style: italic">Note: I left USO out of this discussion, because once you add the things that the NF, Vortex, and IOR offer as standard, the USO comes out several $100.s more than a NF. None of that makes a USO bad, it's just in a different price range. </span>


</div></div>

Not to be contrary, but a similar USO at full retail isn't much more than the NF (granted NF comes with rings) and if you go #3 on the elevation you have 10.5 mil/turn and its pretty hard to get lost (and if you zero stop them with nylon washers from Ace I doubt John will void your warranty).

<span style="font-style: italic">SN3-1700
Base price $1920
ERGO - Standard Option
44mm Low Profile - Standard Option
EREK 1/10 MIL - 175.00
Mil-Scale GAP - 86.00
11 Pos Rheostat (Red) - 185.00

$2366
</span>
 
#27
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Give him a bit and rrflyer will be around to tell you exactly what you need or save some time and just PM him.
 
#29
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Buy the $1500 Horus Vision Falcon with either the H-25 or H-37 reticle.

http://www.horusvision.com/falcon.php

pr_4_falcon.jpg


Both are mil/mil plus the reticle enables you to zero once and never touch the knobs again. All aiming is done using the grid reticle. I've used one for years and it is excellent. PM "Lindy" as he is a subject matter expert.
 
#30
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Sobr, you need to start with the TPal to have an apple to apple comparison as the other two have side parallax adjustments. TPal starts at $2120 at the base.
 
#31
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy the $1500 Horus Vision Falcon with either the H-25 or H-37 reticle.

http://www.horusvision.com/falcon.php

pr_4_falcon.jpg


Both are mil/mil plus the reticle enables you to zero once and never touch the knobs again. All aiming is done using the grid reticle. I've used one for years and it is excellent. PM "Lindy" as he is a subject matter expert.
</div></div>

Are you serious... you read the post top quality and durability ?

Horus -- they last thing you think of when you think of their scope is Top Quality or Durability.

You shouldn't confuse other scopes using their reticle with something like that.
 
#32
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is difficult for me to take Rat Bert seriously with that "Let GAYS Be ACCEPTED in the Military" Poster he uses as an avatar....</div></div>

I can't recall if this is good natured ribbing or if I've pissed you off somehow. Would you mind linking me back to whatever thread spawned that particular bit of vitriol?
 
#33
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (I don't have the scope at hand - but I think BobinNC is incorrect and Razor HD has 10 MIL turrets.)
</div></div>

You must use it quite a bit if you can't remember how many mil/rev it has.

BTW, it's 5.
 
#35
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was ribbin'

I was using it in the same manner the Flintstones did. You sure look happy about your scope choice....</div></div>

Ah, ok. Was worried I'd been making posts after half a bottle of Crown again and couldn't remember pointing out that you like to molest collies...
 
#37
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Does anyone know how much would that be shipped to the US? Heck for the less than 2600 that the 5x25 runs, that would be much better than the cost here if you didn't have to pay some kind of crazy fee or something for getting it sent here.
 
#38
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sobr, you need to start with the TPal to have an apple to apple comparison as the other two have side parallax adjustments. TPal starts at $2120 at the base. </div></div>

True, but I usually think ERGO with USO's as its what I prefer (on USO's).
 
#39
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy the $1500 Horus Vision Falcon with either the H-25 or H-37 reticle.

...............plus the reticle enables you to zero once and never touch the knobs again......... </div></div>

Which is good, because if you've checked a Horus' repeatability you wouldn't want to touch the knobs
wink.gif
 
#40
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy the $1500 Horus Vision Falcon with either the H-25 or H-37 reticle.

http://www.horusvision.com/falcon.php

pr_4_falcon.jpg


Both are mil/mil plus the reticle enables you to zero once and never touch the knobs again. All aiming is done using the grid reticle. I've used one for years and it is excellent. PM "Lindy" as he is a subject matter expert.
</div></div>

Are you serious... you read the post top quality and durability ?

Horus -- they last thing you think of when you think of their scope is Top Quality or Durability.

You shouldn't confuse other scopes using their reticle with something like that. </div></div>


my bad! I thought someone was looking for a FFP MIL/MIL for under $2k. I must have posted this in the wrong thread.
blush.gif


To All - horus isn't even close to top shelf in any feature of scopes, except maybe the reticle. and that is only if you like the grid type of scope reticles.

If I had to bet my life on just ONE scope, it would be the Premier Reticle line of scopes.
 
#41
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rundm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know how much would that be shipped to the US? Heck for the less than 2600 that the 5x25 runs, that would be much better than the cost here if you didn't have to pay some kind of crazy fee or something for getting it sent here. </div></div>Not sure about shipping, but you will need to also add VAT to the total.
 
#42
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Just a wild guess, but most likely people would be actively buying/importing them at that price and putting the local dealers out of business if it was financially feasible to do so.
 
#43
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doc1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rundm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know how much would that be shipped to the US? Heck for the less than 2600 that the 5x25 runs, that would be much better than the cost here if you didn't have to pay some kind of crazy fee or something for getting it sent here. </div></div>Not sure about shipping, but you will need to also add VAT to the total. </div></div>

Oh yes! and what about the import duty?

That's why I buy in the US and hand carry back to the UK.

N
 
#45
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doc1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rundm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know how much would that be shipped to the US? Heck for the less than 2600 that the 5x25 runs, that would be much better than the cost here if you didn't have to pay some kind of crazy fee or something for getting it sent here. </div></div>Not sure about shipping, but you will need to also add VAT to the total. </div></div>

There's no UK VAT added as long as rhe scope is exported out of the UK. I buy scopes in UK and US and shipping and handling varies between $50 - $100. You might have to add local sales tax.
 
#47
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badbowtie03</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about a us optics sn3 vs the razor hd? Yall think the usoptics is better?</div></div>

Oye ve.

Depends on if they're running grass or dirt and the skill of the jockey. Just bet place on both, or pull in a NSX and go for the trifecta.
 
#49
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (I don't have the scope at hand - but I think BobinNC is incorrect and Razor HD has 10 MIL turrets.)
</div></div>

You must use it quite a bit if you can't remember how many mil/rev it has.

BTW, it's 5. </div></div>

1. Thanks for correcting - yes, consulting with the manual revealed that it is 5 mrad per rotation, 36 mrad total.

2. No I didn't use it "quite a bit". Don't see why it would matter, especially to you - or be worth discussing here. A real (and good!) review was posted by Lowlight.
 
#50
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

keep your eyes peeled for a uso or nxs in the used section. they are both great scopes. i have not held a vortex, so i can't comment on them

gl on your search.
 
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