Hoping someone could chime in on this, I just purchased an AGM Rattler 35 to do some varmint/predator hunting and chicken coop defense (coyote, fox, bobcat and cougar). I currently have a 300BLK SBR 8” barrel and it loves the 220 SMK’s for subs. However I don’t have enough faith in the accuracy shooting it with thermal out to 200 yards. Most shots will likely be taken inside 100 but my property offers me ranges out to 200 and I would prefer to be able to cover the whole area if possible. I would prefer to keep it subsonic just for the quiet shots taken at night as I have some nosey neighbors about 6-700 yards to my sides (none to the front or back where the shooting lanes are). I have plenty of 223, 6.5 grendel 22 WMR, 6.5 creed and other popular caliber rifles, SBR’s and PCC’s that I can suppress but you still get the crack of the round. Based on my ranges and known targets does anyone have any recommendations of flatter shooting subsonic rounds or do I just say fuck the neighbors and throw it on one of the 5.56 AR’s? Any info or experience from you knowledgeable hide members would be greatly appreciated!
- Thread starter Atlas11B
- Start date
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,645
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220s aren’t gonna give you reliable expansion at 300BO subsonic speeds. Might be quiet, but a wounded animals making god awful noises will let your nosey neighbors aware of what your doing
Subsonic at 200 yards? WTH? Try 25-50 yards is what that round is intended for.
Hornady 190 Sub-X and Leigh High Defense 194 reliably expand at subsonic speeds not match bullets.
Hornady 190 Sub-X and Leigh High Defense 194 reliably expand at subsonic speeds not match bullets.
Kind of why I’m asking if there are other rounds out there capable of 200 and still being subsonic.. I have absolutely no intention of shooting an animal past 50 yards with the 300 BLK.. the example of the my 300 BLK with the 220SMK’s was me painting the picture of the only gun I have that currently shoots subs, not the gun that I want to put the thermal on.. I guess I could have worded that better
Maybe 510 Whisper?
Note that at 1000fps and infinite ballistic coefficient, the drop at 200yd will be ~6 feet regardless of what you pick.
Note that at 1000fps and infinite ballistic coefficient, the drop at 200yd will be ~6 feet regardless of what you pick.
You need the caliber for advanced years: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/8-6-blk-the-caliber-for-advanced-years.7081770/
LOLOL
LOLOL
Best bet is a zero somewhere around 70-90 yards but even so it will be several mils of drop to 150, and several more to 200. It gets very tricky very quickly outside of the ~120yd point blank range.
FWIW I've done plenty of night hunting with suppressed 300 B/O subs and had reasonably good success with the Hornady 190gr. I've also used the cutting edge bullets. For the money/simplicity the Sub-X makes more sense to me. They shoot surprisingly well for accuracy, too.
Just understand that you're basically "archery hunting". There are not many Bang-dead! kills. You poke a hole and wait for it to bleed out like you do with an arrow.
FWIW I've done plenty of night hunting with suppressed 300 B/O subs and had reasonably good success with the Hornady 190gr. I've also used the cutting edge bullets. For the money/simplicity the Sub-X makes more sense to me. They shoot surprisingly well for accuracy, too.
Just understand that you're basically "archery hunting". There are not many Bang-dead! kills. You poke a hole and wait for it to bleed out like you do with an arrow.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,645
- 17,545
I’m interested to see how you like the rattler as well. I looked through one a while back but it was the 25mm version. What calibers do you currently own and/or reload for and more answers might come faster
Just out of curiosity, what’s your zero distance and scope height over bore?
1.5” Spuhr on Seekins 8” w/ Omega can
Zero 0.3 mils low at 50 w/ 190 Sub-X and 4” below that with Berry’s 220, which was 8 mils low at 200.
For the money and just short range varmint use I am hoping the rattler lives up to the reviews I have watched. I’ll let you know this weekend when I get some time behind it. As far as calibers that I can get my cans on, 22lr, 22WMR, 17m2, 9mm out of MP5 or KP9, 5.56, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creed, 300BLK, 45-70, 270 WSM.. I’m sure I’m missing some but off the top of my head i have suppressor hosts in all of these calibers and cans to support them. As far as I know for subs I’m pretty much limited to 22lr, 9mm and 300BLK. I’m willing to build a gun specifically to host this thermal if there is a better caliber option hence this post..
Maybe I’ll have to try some of the 190’s and sub-x to squeeze a few more yards out of it. 200 isn’t an absolute must, just kind of the limit of my range and if there’s something mingling around the edge of the property I’d like to be able to take a poke at it but like you said 120 is even pushing the 300BLK on an ethical kill.
Very similar to my setup as it’s an 8” barrel with an omega. 8 mils is a lot of drop to hold for with the reticle options in a thermal
I’m thinking for now until those calibers of the future come out this might be the route I go if I want to keep it sub. I do have a PVS-14 setup so some stalking is definitely doable. It’s just so much easier to sit In the rocking chair on the front porch and pop shots haha
I can imagine. I just use a PA 1-8 PLx and it’s just for fun
I've done some interesting things with a 223 bolt gun and downloading it to subsonic using pistol powder and varmint bullets like the Vmax. Never shot it out to 200yds but it did well at 100yds on groundhogs. Message me if you want more info. Hesitant to post anything here since it's obviously not recommended for amateur reloaders.
350 legend 10 twist with maker bullets 280gr. I have an AR with a mos-tek 10.5” barrel and I have shot it out to 400 yards with great success. It’s hilarious how long it takes for the bullet to hit steel at 400. I would feel confident taking game out to 150 with it maybe even a little more but you need to know your drop.
Why not go all the way to .510 Whisper?
650gr bullet subsonic at 100m hits as hard as a 175SMK at supersonic. It works wonders on hogs, especially with a suppressor. But beyond that, it's kind of a gimmicky fun thing and not too practical.
Love the idea of the 510 whisper. Just to much cost vs return. Been kicking the idea of 45/70 with 500 gr soft cast lead. Already about subsonic anyway. Out to 100 yards should have enough punch. How well would this suppress? Anyone tried it?
Making brass is an enormous pain
Take worn-out .338LM brass and cut it down a bit
Remove the taper with a special die
Cut the very tempermental almost-non-existent shoulder
Cry tears because you keep messing it up
Be happy when some of them work
Take worn-out .338LM brass and cut it down a bit
Remove the taper with a special die
Cut the very tempermental almost-non-existent shoulder
Cry tears because you keep messing it up
Be happy when some of them work
This is the only sub my r700 5r .308 has liked. these were loaded with tite group into a loose sand backstop @ 100yards.
suppressed they are hollywood quiet.
9x39mm?
Expansion, drop and time to target are big factors of course as already mentioned.
But there is already so much work done with this. Uppers for AR/AK:s and ammo is somewhat available and reamers as well.
Expansion, drop and time to target are big factors of course as already mentioned.
But there is already so much work done with this. Uppers for AR/AK:s and ammo is somewhat available and reamers as well.
No offense but have you practice subsonic ukd shooting at 200 yards at night ?
Are you aware of the amount of vertical spread you get if you have an ES of 30-40 FPS ? Just between 190 and 210 yards you get 1 full mil of drop - you better be sure you have the right distance and a load that you can trust. Also imagine doing it at night through a thermal.
I have done 200 yards through a pulsar with my DTA Covert with subsonic 208 amax and 200 Lapua fmjbt on a 6” gong for shit and giggles but not something I’d ever consider for actual hunting. I’d also consider the time of flight 0.6 seconds is a long time. Also good trigger fundamentals are required when shooting subsonic.
That being said, LeHigh 194 ME and 174 CF will expand at 900 FPS so that’ll work at 200 yards.
Going bigger doesn’t make much of a difference. Going to a 338 whisper or even a 510 whisper - you’ll get the extra mass and energy, but you can’t beat gravity. You’ll have the same 1 mil drop between 190 and 210 yards.
Honestly, just get closer to your game. Inside of 150 yards it gets dramatically easier - zero at 75 yards. +1 mil for 100, +2 mil for 120, +3 mil for 145.
Aim low -1.5” for anything inside of 75 yards.
Are you aware of the amount of vertical spread you get if you have an ES of 30-40 FPS ? Just between 190 and 210 yards you get 1 full mil of drop - you better be sure you have the right distance and a load that you can trust. Also imagine doing it at night through a thermal.
I have done 200 yards through a pulsar with my DTA Covert with subsonic 208 amax and 200 Lapua fmjbt on a 6” gong for shit and giggles but not something I’d ever consider for actual hunting. I’d also consider the time of flight 0.6 seconds is a long time. Also good trigger fundamentals are required when shooting subsonic.
That being said, LeHigh 194 ME and 174 CF will expand at 900 FPS so that’ll work at 200 yards.
Going bigger doesn’t make much of a difference. Going to a 338 whisper or even a 510 whisper - you’ll get the extra mass and energy, but you can’t beat gravity. You’ll have the same 1 mil drop between 190 and 210 yards.
Honestly, just get closer to your game. Inside of 150 yards it gets dramatically easier - zero at 75 yards. +1 mil for 100, +2 mil for 120, +3 mil for 145.
Aim low -1.5” for anything inside of 75 yards.
Sub .22 is fun at 200 but unless your just trying to wound them subs aren't flat shooting by design. I would be interested in the 223 subs just to play with
308 Win 175 Grain Subsonic
At ATOMIC Ammunition, we know that the only way to make the best handgun ammunition in the world is to start with the best components available.
www.atomicammunition.com Use this on the family ranch for coyote control. It’s not cheap but it’s reliable.
The ATN Abl1000 paired with a Xsight 4K will give you range and ballistic in the hud. Works good to 200 yards if you’re poor.
Subsonic you need to be able to accurately range due to the crazy drop over distance. In terms of what you are describing, I'd probably look at 450 Bushmaster (Ruger Ranch, for example), and handloads. Should be pretty doable to launch ~300+ grain downrange at 1000 FPS. Curtis Tactical will sell you a 9mm bolt action with integral suppressor which would let you launch 150+ at 1000 FPS. But I think you need bigger/heavier bullets if you want to kill coyotes at 200.
I think I have kind of given up on going with a designated sub round for the hunting purpose. I did get the thermal on the other night, currently have it mounted on a tac sol 10/22 just for testing out the functions. It has 4 calibers that I can save for sighting in and an American defense mount that returns to 0, so currently the plan is 22lr, 22 WMR, 300 BLK and then maybe the 6.5 grendel. With that handy function I can make a game time decision of whether I need subs for discretion or if I need to stretch out to distance.. first night chalked up 2 raccoon kills and spotted a coyote but didn’t want to shoot it since I was only sighted in for the 22. The raccoons were no problem at 50 yards though and I gotta say I get the whole thermal craze now, that was a lot of fun to have multiple targets and have the complete element of surprise. As for the Rattler TS-35, in my opinion it is an excellent optic for the my use having 10 acres, 4 acres timber and 6 acres open field. I have a farm field out in front of the house that ranges out to about a mile of open ground and I have no problem picking up the farm house that is 1100 yards away, haven’t had any animals out there yet but easily pick up moving cars on the farm road at 850 yards.. I appreciate everyone chiming in on this thread, I’m still looking for that “perfect” sub caliber but in the meantime I will take advantage of the features of the optic and bounce it around to different guns for different purposes!
I belive you have arrived at a sensible conclusion. I love my suppressed 300 Blk with SUBX/PVS-27/Radius, but if the nearest "nosey neighbor" is 600-700 yd away I would most certainly be using a suppressed gun with supers. Counterdetection of a suppressed rifle with any sort of fine directionality is far more difficult at that distance than a lot of people think, particularly in the dark.
you would be hard pressed at 200 yards to beat the cost of a 22lr sub sonic and if you could learn to shoot one at 200 yards just as easily as you could with larger rounds costing way more money so you could either save a few bucks per round or shoot more and learn way more on your ability to make wind calls ... regardless of what you end up with I wish you the best of luck they are all fun to shoot ..
In my humble experience, long range (ie past 200 yards) subsonic, in order to do it well, you need single digit SDs which for whatever reason, is way easier for me, in my 308 DTA 1:8 twist with trailboss and Lapua 200fmjbt than in the 300blk case and I’ve tried just about everything, N330, N105, N110, N120, Tinstar, etc. I can get pretty good results but just not the consistency that I can get out of the 308 and that could be because of the brass or the primers although I’m experimenting with magnum pistol primers for subsonic 300blk and I might get 100 Lapua 300blk casing to rule out the brass.
I’ve killed coyotes at the 150-200 range distance but it’s so much more work than doing it with my dedicated 204 ruger coyote gun. Plus your trigger control is more more critical with subsonics than super.
If you’re running factory 300blk subsonic ammo with an ES of 40 and shooting at a coyote at 200 yards then you’re definitely into luck territory.
I’ve killed coyotes at the 150-200 range distance but it’s so much more work than doing it with my dedicated 204 ruger coyote gun. Plus your trigger control is more more critical with subsonics than super.
If you’re running factory 300blk subsonic ammo with an ES of 40 and shooting at a coyote at 200 yards then you’re definitely into luck territory.
Going another direction, you could just throw a can on varmint rounds. 17 HMR, 22 Hornet, etc, should have way less muzzle blast than a .223, and be way more useful out to 200 depending on how big a thing you are shooting at. .22LR at 200 is spotty with ANY wind, never mind trying to use thermals, etc. These will likely be so much more accurate at that distance than anything subsonic. I get what you are trying to do because I've been on a similar quest for a long time. I've got a cabin with some neighbors and I don't want to irritate them while I shoot, and I don't want to spend the $1+ a round that is subsonic .330 Black. I keep trying to get 9mm to work, with varying results.
458?
I know this is an old thread, but these are new... Just incase anyone is still interested in subsonic expanding .300 BLK ammo.
Look at Callaway Ballistics... They're loading expanding subsonic .300 BLK ammo now. I think it's called the "Boar Axe"... From what Tim @ Alabama Arsenal has tested, says they work pretty damn well.
callawayballistics.com
Look at Callaway Ballistics... They're loading expanding subsonic .300 BLK ammo now. I think it's called the "Boar Axe"... From what Tim @ Alabama Arsenal has tested, says they work pretty damn well.
Boar AXE Subsonic 300blk MKZ 195gr-NEW-30rds - Callaway Ballistics
30rd Pack The newest addition to Callaway Ballistics' 300blk line of subsonic ammunition for suppressed hunting applications, the Boar AXE 300blk offering features Cavity Back Bullets' 195-grain MKZ projectile. Designed with extreme expansion in mind, Cavity Back Bullets' MKZ projectiles are CNC...
callawayballistics.com 
I would like to know your suggestions on N110 Subsonic .308 loads for a 22" 1in10 " rifle . Is this a possibility with powder coated lead ?
I don't see that working with 308win and N110. You'd be looking at 30-40% case fill depending on coal and bullet weight which you are limited with the 1:10 tw.
You'll need either Tinstar (N32C) or Trailboss for optimum 308 subsonic loads. Both of them as far as I know have been temporarily discontinued in the US.
Also with 1:10 twist you'll have to stay with the 175-200gr bullet (I believe the Lapua 200 FMJBT would stabilize at 1050 FPS out of a 1:10 tw, it's a fairly short bullet) so you can't benefit from a very long VLD like a SMK 230 or a 220 ELD-X which fills the case quite a bit.
I don't know of very much valid alternatives for N32c and Trailboss due to the large case capacity that has to be filled. I'd never do less than 50% case fill due to the atrocious velocity spread and the higher risk of secondary ignition.
N110 does work very well in a 300BLK case or a 458 soccom/450Bushmaster.
Thank you .
Would be curious on your thoughts if you end up playing with 8.6 BLK, where you don't need Trailboss for things to work right.
Wish I could afford to go to a Blackout . Have to make due with my .308 . And have coyotes coming into close at night . Hoping to finda way to use subsonic thru my suppressor . No need to annoy the neighbors .
Attachments
.300 BLK at 200 yards with 220 subs (handloads)... No problems hitting the deer's heart every time.
