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++Bighorn TL3 Builds++

Xander3Zero said:
I will have to take a closer look tonight, but yes, I think the nose of the bullet is missing the entrance to the chamber and jamming against the breech face of the barrel. I did slightly modify this MDT mag to work in another 223 bolt gun, and what I did was remove a little bit of the front of the feed lips to allow the cartridge to "angle up" a little more as it is pushed from the mag so this could be contributing to the issue?

I guess I would have to order another MDT mag to see if an unmodified one will still have the same issue. Still seems strange that I am unable to just single load them on top of the magazine tho.
Click to expand...

When you get a chance to look at it see if the bullet is missing the chamber high or missing low. If it's missing high then the feedlips might be a contributing factor. The next thing to look at is height of magazine relative to action. If the mag is low its more likely to send the round high, if the mag is high then it's more likely to send the round lower. At least that's what my guess is... seems like a low mag would have the round hit off the feed ramp and angle the bullet more sharply upwards. Try feeding a round super slow and watching what it does.
 
Thanks for the inputs guys. I will do some more investigating when I get the chance. Maybe I will make a video showing the issue which might be more helpful than pictures.
 
Is there a good amount of vertical play when the mag is seated in the bottom metal? If so, load up some dummy rounds in the mag then apply slight force to the bottom of the mag to make it present the round higher in the receiver. While applying force to the bottom of the mag, run the bolt and try to cycle through several rounds. If this helps, you may need a longer mag catch.
 
While i haven't used a TL3 with a 223 my friend has one and hasn't had issues. If it's picking up the round adequately i wouldn't think that it's a magazine depth issue. Which from what you're describing it seems to be picking it up out of the mag fine, just not sliding under the extractor and properly aligned with the chamber.

To eliminate the extractor issue you're thinking of do you know anyone close by that has another 223 bolt head? Or another extracor? Does this happen with any other cartridge that you have for the rifle? Or is it only 223?
 
Do you happen to know if it’s a AW cut magwell or aics and would it matter either way.
 
Codiekfx400 said:
Do you happen to know if it’s a AW cut magwell or aics and would it matter either way.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't. AW cut doesn't prohibit you from running AICS at all, it's just a matter of the mag latch controlling the mag seating depth. Prime example is my TL3 is AW cut but i run AICS mags, yet if i were to put it in my former T4A that was set up for AW mags it would run that as well.
 
I have a TL3 AW cut 6.5 Creedmoor and it will not function properly with magpul aics magazines. It however functions flawlessly with $30 a piece Ruger aics magazines which makes me very ?. I had no idea what magazines work in a TL3 aw cut 223 action but would greatly appreciate any info on the matter. I have one ordered in a left hand from Bohem that should be arriving shortly.
 
Friend runs MDT as well. Are there no official aluminum AICS pattern 223 mags?
 
Thanks for all the responses everyone, I appreciate all the input.

I had some time last night to investigate a bit more last night and I was able to take a few videos, but not sure what the best method is for sharing them here?

Like R5Will is saying, I don't think it is a magazine issue because the bolt is grabbing enough meat of the cartridge to pick it up, it just isn't sliding under the extractor for some reason. After running a few test trials I determined that the cartridge is being pushed into the chamber, but it is just jamming. The bullet tip isn't missing high or low of the chamber, it is going in just fine and then it jams. The bottom of the chamber entrance is leaving a mark on the case body, so that is jam point 1, and the second jam point seems to be the back of the case head against the boltface. I should add that the same jam occurs when I single load a cartridge on top of the magazine, and that it doesn't matter what speed I run the bolt at.

I don't know anyone around with another TL3 to compare the bolt head too, and I don't have any other cartridges for this rifle.

I do have a 223 Accurate Mag, but it holds the cartridge way too low and will need a lot of modification before I can get the bolt to even pick up the round, so I have been focusing on the MDT mag I have which presents the round at seemingly the correct height. MDT mags are definitely the preferred 223 mag that I have seen. Also this TL3 is cut with the standard AI mag cutout.

I've also been in contact with Tom Manners who has been helpful and has offered to send me some longer mag catches if we can determine that it is the issue (which I don't think it is). Tom also seemed to think that there is plenty of round showing from the mag, and that shouldn't be the problem.

If I can share these videos I think it will give everyone a much clearer picture.

Edit: Google Drive with pics/vids:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kujN6RsQQz1-0Qn33km0oQNXsH6Ovqo6?usp=sharing
 

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reubenski said:
I have been running 223 out of a TL3 for a while using accurate mag AICS pattern 223 magazines. I have recently started to run 300 blackout out of the same set up. I have had 0 issues. But I have been using XLR and MPA chassis. I highly suspect your issue is magazine height and how that particular mini chassis presents the magazine to the action
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I have tried "manipulating" the magazine height and angle/cant with my hand while feeding, and none of it seems to make a difference.

I put the relevant pictures and some videos in this public google drive here for anyone to take a look. One of the videos is feeding through the magazine, and the other is with the cartridge just resting on the mag. Working the bolt at different speeds had no effect.

Google Drive with pics/vids:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kujN6RsQQz1-0Qn33km0oQNXsH6Ovqo6?usp=sharing
 
Xander3Zero said:
I put the relevant pictures and some videos in this public google drive here for anyone to take a look. One of the videos is feeding through the magazine, and the other is with the cartridge just resting on the mag. Working the bolt at different speeds had no effect.

Google Drive with pics/vids:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kujN6RsQQz1-0Qn33km0oQNXsH6Ovqo6?usp=sharing
Click to expand...

It almost looks like the edge of the chamber is biting into the cartride and instead of sliding forward and pulling the case under the extractor it is binding up. Did your gunsmith put a champfer at the edge of the chamber?

I'm just throwing out guesses at this point but the thing I would be looking at next would be trying to make sure there wasn't a sharp edge on the chamber, and on making the extractor as easy as possible for the brass to slide underneath. If you have a barrel vise and can take the barrel off you might be able to polish up the lip of the chamber so the brass can slide more easily. Then on the extractor make sure it's got a drop of oil on it and can freely move, and that there's nothing that would impede the case from sliding underneath it.
 
Sheldon N said:
It almost looks like the edge of the chamber is biting into the cartride and instead of sliding forward and pulling the case under the extractor it is binding up. Did your gunsmith put a champfer at the edge of the chamber?

I'm just throwing out guesses at this point but the thing I would be looking at next would be trying to make sure there wasn't a sharp edge on the chamber, and on making the extractor as easy as possible for the brass to slide underneath. If you have a barrel vise and can take the barrel off you might be able to polish up the lip of the chamber so the brass can slide more easily. Then on the extractor make sure it's got a drop of oil on it and can freely move, and that there's nothing that would impede the case from sliding underneath it.
Click to expand...

This is what Bighorn is saying as well. Seems like that could make sense, but I got the barrel from Greg at SPR and he specifically makes prefits for the TL3... I would think he would know to put a chamfer on the leading edge of the chamber? I am pretty sure that when I inspected the barrel before I installed it, that it had a broken edge at the chamber there. This is pretty frustrating and overwhelming; buying top tier components thinking that I should have no problem like 100s of others here, and then having to coordinate with Manners, Bighorn, SPR, etc. just to get it to feed. The whole point was avoiding gunsmith's and now I am potentially having to pull the barrel back off, and send it out to someone? Or maybe send the whole rifle to someone so that I make sure when I get it back that it will feed.

Edited to add that everyone involved (Manners, Bighorn, SPR) has been responsive and helpful so far. I know that by buying prefits and putting the rifle together myself, I take a lot of the liability and there is no one entity that is responsible for making sure everything works out. I am just frustrated is all, as I'm sure anyone who has been in a similar situation can relate.
 
I can understand the frustration. If it were me I'd try to clean up the leading edge of the chamber before mailing the whole thing to a gunsmith. Nothing super aggressive, just maybe something like a wooden dowel chucked up in a drill with a bit of metal polish on it. Or even by hand. A lot easier than packing up the rifle entirely.

I bet there's a champfer on it, probably just has a sharp edge to it.
 
Sheldon N said:
I can understand the frustration. If it were me I'd try to clean up the leading edge of the chamber before mailing the whole thing to a gunsmith. Nothing super aggressive, just maybe something like a wooden dowel chucked up in a drill with a bit of metal polish on it. Or even by hand. A lot easier than packing up the rifle entirely.

I bet there's a champfer on it, probably just has a sharp edge to it.
Click to expand...

I am going to wait to hear back from Greg @ SPR before I do anything. I don't know if I would really be comfortable doing much of anything to the barrel, it seems ridiculous to pay like $600+ for a barrel and then have to clean up the chamber job myself with a wooden dowel, no offense to your suggestion lol.
 
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My baby.26" Bartlein chambered in 6.5x47 by PVA, Elite T6A with a Gen 2 mini chassis, Jewell HVR.

KY6Fv0F.jpg


How it shoots during seating depth testing. 143gr ELD-X, 36gr Varget. I'm ecstatic so far. That group .03 off the lands is the best group I ever shot. Measured .08.
96nZobL.jpg

96nZobL.jpg
 
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jda2631 said:
That looks great! What barrel profile is that? What velocity did you get with the 143gr eld-x?
Click to expand...

Med Palma. Hottest load I tested was 37.5gr and it got me 2821 with no signs of pressure. I reckon I could get fairly close to 2900fps. The 36gr of Varget that produced those nice groups was cruising along at 2700fps.
 
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I think I know the answer, but just to confirm: what is the method for removing the extractor from the TL3's bolt face?

There is a little detent right on the top of the extractor plate, and I've tried pushing it in with a pick and then sliding the extractor towards the outside diameter of the bolt face, but I was unsuccessful. I think maybe I wasn't depressing the detent enough, or it seemed like as I would start to slide the extractor the detent would release and then I was back to square one.
 
I just did it with a paperclip. It's a metal cone plunger on a spring that fits into a cone shaped recess on the back of the sliding extractor. Push the plunger down and pull the extractor sideways.
 
I'll add that all I shoot in my 2 AW cut TL3s is 223. Both feed just fine out of the Accurate Mags modified so I can mag feed 80g bullets.

I do have the same exact issue top loading 80g and 90s bullets. When I shoot F-Class I have to single feed anyway, so I push them into the chamber then close the bolt.

Regardless, out of the mag the 80s feed just fine. The 90s are way to long for the mag without butchering the read side of the insert too. And at that point I doubt they'd function at all.
 
Xander3Zero said:
I think I know the answer, but just to confirm: what is the method for removing the extractor from the TL3's bolt face?

There is a little detent right on the top of the extractor plate, and I've tried pushing it in with a pick and then sliding the extractor towards the outside diameter of the bolt face, but I was unsuccessful. I think maybe I wasn't depressing the detent enough, or it seemed like as I would start to slide the extractor the detent would release and then I was back to square one.
Click to expand...

I fought this same issue with one of my TL3’s and came down to the very tiny extractor spring. It was to tight and not allowing the case head to slide up into the bolt when released from the magazine. I removed the spring and clipped a small amount (maybe 1/2 a coil) to reduce the tension and it runs perfectly now. Hope this helps.
 
NightStash said:
I fought this same issue with one of my TL3’s and came down to the very tiny extractor spring. It was to tight and not allowing the case head to slide up into the bolt when released from the magazine. I removed the spring and clipped a small amount (maybe 1/2 a coil) to reduce the tension and it runs perfectly now. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Interesting to hear that. From looking at my feeding jam, it doesn't appear that the cartridge is even in contact with the extractor so I am not sure that this is the issue. This weekend I plan to remove the extractor from the bolt and see if that helps.

I discussed with Greg @ SPR and he said he is willing to have me send him the rifle and try to get it worked out for me. We've basically ruled out magazine issues, and once I try feeding with the extractor removed that will rule that out. This will pretty much leave the entrance chamfer on the chamber which he said he can try to fine tune and smooth out, although of course there is only so large of a chamfer that he can put on the chamber before too much of the case is left unsupported. He is being a stand-up guy about it so I am feeling much better knowing that he is willing to help me sort out this issue.
 
Running Accurate mags in my TL3/XLR setup and have run 6 different 223 barrels from Shilen, CBI, Greg @ SPR prefit, PVA and Keystone Accuracy.

Zero feeding issues on any of them.

Was the TL3 fitted to your stock???
 
NightStash said:
I fought this same issue with one of my TL3’s and came down to the very tiny extractor spring. It was to tight and not allowing the case head to slide up into the bolt when released from the magazine. I removed the spring and clipped a small amount (maybe 1/2 a coil) to reduce the tension and it runs perfectly now. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I just removed the extractor from the bolt face and now the rifle is feeding perfectly, no jamming of the cartridge at all. I tried with 2 different mags, feeding through the mags and by resting the cartridge on top and there's no hanging up of the cartridge and no mark left on the cartridge. I also tried a 223 AI "Bob Sled" single feed magazine and it is functioning now too. With the extractor installed, whether feeding from the magazine or on top, would result in a cartridge jam. It appears that I am having the same exact issue that you had. I am hesitant to trim the extractor spring until I talk with Bighorn and see what they think.

padom said:
Running Accurate mags in my TL3/XLR setup and have run 6 different 223 barrels from Shilen, CBI, Greg @ SPR prefit, PVA and Keystone Accuracy.

Zero feeding issues on any of them.

Was the TL3 fitted to your stock???
Click to expand...

TL3 was not fitted to my stock, its just sitting in a mini-chassis. Don't think magazine height is the issue, you can see a bit of the primer pocket from the rear with the bolt removed and the magazine is actually releasing the cartridge nicely into the chamber.

I was just about ready to send this rifle to Greg Young to have him fine-tune the chamber entrance chamfer, but I am not sure if this is necessary anymore. If you have been running all those barrels from those different makers without any issue, it kinda further points towards the extractor in my case, as opposed to the barrel chamber.

I guess it could be a combination of the two things: the entrance chamfer on the chamber, and possibly the extractor is a little stiff/tight? But it feeds buttery smooth from the mags with the extractor removed so I don't know. Seems easier to maybe try to trim the extractor spring and see if that helps; I'm sure Bighorn won't have any problems sending me a new spring if I mutilate it lol. Otherwise Greg would have to keep increasing the size of the entrance chamfer by guess-and-check and there is a limit of how much unsupported case he can leave.

Curious to what you guys think now that I have removed the extractor and that seemed to solve the issue? Anyone else have a similar situation to @NightStash ?
 
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How easy is it to push your extractor left/right in the groove? Mine moves pretty smoothly, just a bit of pressure from a fingernail will move it all the way over. Maybe take it apart and clean it and put a drop of oil in there?
 
Sheldon N said:
How easy is it to push your extractor left/right in the groove? Mine moves pretty smoothly, just a bit of pressure from a fingernail will move it all the way over. Maybe take it apart and clean it and put a drop of oil in there?
Click to expand...

I did just that and it didn't seem to make any difference. When I slide the extractor side to side with my finger it feels a little tough, but it is hard to compare such a subjective feeling...

If I am just holding the bolt in my hand and I slide a cartridge into the bolt face, it noticeably "clicks" up under the extractor. The bolt will then hold the case completely unsupported by itself. Is this normal? For example if I lay the bolt on the table and just "rest" a case head on the slot at the bolt face, it won't just slide in, it does have to be pushed or "clicked" under the extractor for it to slide into the bolt face.
 
Mine is similar, takes a bit of force to slide the case in but not too much. There's a bit of a click when it slides in, then the case is held unsupported.

I guess the other thing I'd go back to is what someone else suggested earlier, that the feed lips of the mag are hanging onto the case too long and by the time they release the case it's already at a steep angle. Perhaps try a bit of filing on the leading edge of the feed lips so that they let the case out of the mag earlier.
 
Xander3Zero said:
I did just that and it didn't seem to make any difference. When I slide the extractor side to side with my finger it feels a little tough, but it is hard to compare such a subjective feeling...

If I am just holding the bolt in my hand and I slide a cartridge into the bolt face, it noticeably "clicks" up under the extractor. The bolt will then hold the case completely unsupported by itself. Is this normal? For example if I lay the bolt on the table and just "rest" a case head on the slot at the bolt face, it won't just slide in, it does have to be pushed or "clicked" under the extractor for it to slide into the bolt face.
Click to expand...


My extractor works and feels just like yours. As I suspected, your case is sitting way too low. I just pulled out 2 of my TL3's, one in an MPA BA Competition and one in an XLR Envy and both have about half the case and primer visible from the back and both pick up and feed the round like butter out of my Accurate mag...... In the image you posted I can barely see any primer at all....

zC43En8.jpg
 
@padom any chance you could take a picture of just your mag (accurate/MDT) with the cartridge in it? If I push my mags up in the receiver, the bolt rams into the feed lips (indicating that the magazine height seems ok) but maybe it is the round height within the cartridge itself that I could modify a bit.

Maybe my magazine is sitting a little low, but that wouldn't really account for the jams I have encountered by single feeding on top of the MDT/Accurate mags that I have, and by single feeding the round through a AI Bob Sled. In all three of these mags the cartridge jammed with the extractor installed. No issues with any of these mags when I removed the extractor.

I understand the issue could be from a combination of things, but there was another member above who mentioned having the same issues as me and that trimming the extractor spring fixed it for him. I am going to talk with Bighorn and see what they think now that I've tried it without the extractor, and I'm going to have Manners send me a few replacement mag latches to see if a longer latch helps at all.
 
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Sheldon N said:
Mine is similar, takes a bit of force to slide the case in but not too much. There's a bit of a click when it slides in, then the case is held unsupported.

I guess the other thing I'd go back to is what someone else suggested earlier, that the feed lips of the mag are hanging onto the case too long and by the time they release the case it's already at a steep angle. Perhaps try a bit of filing on the leading edge of the feed lips so that they let the case out of the mag earlier.
Click to expand...

My MDT mag is modified like this already. It was tight feeding in another 223 bolt gun so i modified the feed lips just like you said. They release the cartridge slightly earlier. I also have an unmodified MDT mag that seems to function just fine in the TL3 without the extractor.

Watch the feeding video here with the extractor removed. Watch how smooth the cartridge is feeding with no extractor, and this was with like no force on the bolt or anything, just butter smooth.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10__u1iuUsO94Z9u4zwSTZrtBaXHOV5iZ/view?usp=sharing
 
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Really need to get it finished in black but this is probably the final configuration. Anyone know the turn around time of Bighorn's DLC? I can't decide if i wanna send the receiver to get DLC'd and cerakote the barrel. Or just do the entire thing in Cerakote Elite. Felt a friends TL3 with it it's pretty smooth, nothing like previous cerakoted custom bolt rifles i've felt.
IMG_2905.JPG
 
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5RWill said:
Really need to get it finished in black but this is probably the final configuration. Anyone know the turn around time of Bighorn's DLC? I can't decide if i wanna send the receiver to get DLC'd and cerakote the barrel. Or just do the entire thing in Cerakote Elite. Felt a friends TL3 with it it's pretty smooth, nothing like previous cerakoted custom bolt rifles i've felt.
View attachment 6904026
Click to expand...
WHat is it chambered in? Beautiful rifle
 
DEW0341 said:
WHat is it chambered in? Beautiful rifle
Click to expand...

Thank you sir, 6.5x47 cut at 18" dedicated hunting rig though a tad heavier than intended. I have a proof blank waiting to be put on for a 7 Sherman Short mag build. Going to use it as a switch barrel rig.
 
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5RWill said:
Really need to get it finished in black but this is probably the final configuration. Anyone know the turn around time of Bighorn's DLC? I can't decide if i wanna send the receiver to get DLC'd and cerakote the barrel. Or just do the entire thing in Cerakote Elite. Felt a friends TL3 with it it's pretty smooth, nothing like previous cerakoted custom bolt rifles i've felt.
View attachment 6904026
Click to expand...

I think it looks pretty sharp as is, I have always liked a SS or CF barrel. If anything I would just DLC the action.

On a side note, quit posting pictures of the k318, I am going to eventually cave and get one :)
 
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blbennett1288 said:
I think it looks pretty sharp as is, I have always liked a SS or CF barrel. If anything I would just DLC the action.

On a side note, quit posting pictures of the k318, I am going to eventually cave and get one :)
Click to expand...

I do like SS or bead blast with some guns however for some reason i want black with this one. Though truthfully i'm not sure black fits it. I love core's highlander pattern but it needs like a greenish/brown finish on the barreled action.

I posted a video of the clicks too in the K318i thread lol. Hell today was the first day i've actually gotten to sit behind it.
 
Ilikepie said:
Mine is still a work in progress. Just waiting for my A5. View attachment 6904049View attachment 6904050
Click to expand...

Just as an observation, and to save you from potentially making an expensive mistake if you're not aware, the way you have your torque wrench positioned with the barrel nut wrench is incorrect. Unless you've performed the proper calculations for using is straight like that, you're applying more torque than specified as a result of increasing your offset/leverage by using it straight. The proper method of using a crow's foot adapter or any other similar adapter is to position the torque wrench at 90* to the adapter and setting the torque wrench to the specified torque value.

In other words, if you've not done the math and adjusted your torque wrench setting appropriately, you're likely to overtorque that barrel nut by a significant amount, potentially damaging the action, barrel tenon, nut, or all three.

If you're doing the appropriate math (or if instructions came with your barrel nut wrench for a straight offset as pictured), then nevermind the above. Just wanted to help a fellow shooter avoid a twisted action or some other form of damage, if possible. ;)
 
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5RWill said:
Thank you sir, 6.5x47 cut at 18" dedicated hunting rig though a tad heavier than intended. I have a proof blank waiting to be put on for a 7 Sherman Short mag build. Going to use it as a switch barrel rig.
Click to expand...

What length barrel is your proof for the 7 Sherman? I have been thinking of building a 7 SAUM with like a 20" barrel as a strictly hunting gun.
 
5RWill said:
I went 24”. Goal is 3000fps with a 180gr ELD m
Click to expand...

That will make a great rig. I'm wanting a 20" SAUM, and would love to be able to hit 2800-2850 with 168's. Can't find a whole lot of info on how much velocity I will lose going that short.
 
jda2631 said:
That will make a great rig. I'm wanting a 20" SAUM, and would love to be able to hit 2800-2850 with 168's. Can't find a whole lot of info on how much velocity I will lose going that short.
Click to expand...

I think it just depends on where you are. Joe on here was getting 2900 or maybe 3000 out his 21” 6.5 saum with 140s. I know i wouldn’t get that down here.
 
5RWill said:
Really need to get it finished in black but this is probably the final configuration. Anyone know the turn around time of Bighorn's DLC? I can't decide if i wanna send the receiver to get DLC'd and cerakote the barrel. Or just do the entire thing in Cerakote Elite. Felt a friends TL3 with it it's pretty smooth, nothing like previous cerakoted custom bolt rifles i've felt.
View attachment 6904026
Click to expand...


As long as whoever's doing the coating knows what they are doing, shouldn't e an issue.. keep the bolt NP3 and mask raceways and any other critical internal surfaces to keep metal on metal.
 
B-P-UU said:
As long as whoever's doing the coating knows what they are doing, shouldn't e an issue.. keep the bolt NP3 and mask raceways and any other critical internal surfaces to keep metal on metal.
Click to expand...

Probably gonna stick with the original plan of DLC the receiver and cerakote the barrel. Bout to order an action wrench and vise from OTM. It’s not as expensive as i thought
 
Anyone experience with MDT .223 mags with bighorn TL3 AW cut? Need to get a .223 mag for TL3 in MPA chassis
 
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