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Reading through this thread just reaffirms my decision to purchase a TL3. Each problem that gets posted on here has an answer from the guys at Bighorn in a matter of hours - truly impressive!
Thanks and keep up the great work guys!
Thanks and keep up the great work guys!
Besides the awesome actions the folks at Bighorn are good people and they take time out to go to forums and such to make sure they can answer questions there as well. It is impressive. It's a large part of the reason i went with a SR3 for dad's gun, a TL3 for my hunting rifle, and recommended the Origin without hesitation for my brothers rifle.
Reading about people having feeding issues and/or scratching brass issues and thought I would share my experiences. I do not claim to be an expert but when I started my build I did not see anyone really discussing the finer points of setting up a CRF action. LRI had elluded to the need to fine tune the system when the Mausingfield came out but I could not find and specifics so I thought I would share my findings. The barrel sits forward of the feed ramp because of the space for the bolt lugs so I did not mess with the barrel at all. Josh at PVA does excellent work and I was not about to start messing with it. I needed to polish the tool marks out of my early TL3 feed ramp and round the top edge of the feed ramp as it was pretty sharp and was scratching my brass and bullet. The stock magazine lips were also scratching the brass. Easy fix but would not overly recommend people busting out their Dremels for the first time.
It was also important to me to fully utilize the features of the TL3 action, specifically the Controlled Round Feed. Initially my setup was only providing Controlled Round Extraction and Push Feeding. It is important to note the AICS magazine is designed for a pushfeed action with a .308 cartridge profile. The length of the magazine lips dictate which part of the lower cartridge presses the upper cartridge into the bolt face as it is being pushed into the chamber. My barrel is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor so it was important to me that my rifle package be properly tailored. The AICS magazines press up with the neck of the lower cartridge when using a cartridge of this profile.
This means the top cartridge will pop up low of being fully captured by the extractor. The ARC magazines have a shorter feed lip and are better suited for CRF but with the Creedmoor still press up on the shoulder or just barely on the body of the cartridge. This results in CRF if it catches on the shoulder/body edge but more typically the angled shoulder pushes up and forward causing the cartridge to bounce in front of the bolt face once it clears the lips.
I solved this problem by simply shortening the feed lips to properly fit the cartridge dimensions.
(AICS metal roughed in before final cosmetic work shown in the bottom image)
Obviously, like others have said, it is also important to make sure the cartridge sits high enough in the magazine to avoid over riding with the bolt without the lips riding the underside of the bolt. My TL3 has been extremely reliable since the modifications and will definitely build off one again.
Hope this helpful for some.
It was also important to me to fully utilize the features of the TL3 action, specifically the Controlled Round Feed. Initially my setup was only providing Controlled Round Extraction and Push Feeding. It is important to note the AICS magazine is designed for a pushfeed action with a .308 cartridge profile. The length of the magazine lips dictate which part of the lower cartridge presses the upper cartridge into the bolt face as it is being pushed into the chamber. My barrel is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor so it was important to me that my rifle package be properly tailored. The AICS magazines press up with the neck of the lower cartridge when using a cartridge of this profile.
This means the top cartridge will pop up low of being fully captured by the extractor. The ARC magazines have a shorter feed lip and are better suited for CRF but with the Creedmoor still press up on the shoulder or just barely on the body of the cartridge. This results in CRF if it catches on the shoulder/body edge but more typically the angled shoulder pushes up and forward causing the cartridge to bounce in front of the bolt face once it clears the lips.
I solved this problem by simply shortening the feed lips to properly fit the cartridge dimensions.
(AICS metal roughed in before final cosmetic work shown in the bottom image)
Obviously, like others have said, it is also important to make sure the cartridge sits high enough in the magazine to avoid over riding with the bolt without the lips riding the underside of the bolt. My TL3 has been extremely reliable since the modifications and will definitely build off one again.
Hope this helpful for some.
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While i've not handled a Mausingfield and have no doubt what you say is correct, i just haven't seen different in CRF actions i've handled. They've all been hybrids of a push system working with DBM, it's nearly a necessity it seems. My Sako 85 in particular operates the exact same way regarding it's DBM. I get the same scratches on dad's SR3 but partly because the feed ramp has been notched to accommodate the COL i requested. I wish you'd had a before and after video or i could put hands on the action. You near MS? Lol
Were you having reliability issues with your TL3 before hand?
Love the mag modification.
Were you having reliability issues with your TL3 before hand?
Love the mag modification.
I am in Wisconsin if you are ever in the area. I only had feeding issues during assembly because I am not a believer in breaking things in or “seeing if it works”. My day job is too methodical for that.
Scratching is completely eliminated with high quality polishing of the madazine lips and feed ramp crest. The feed ramp itself was never an issue other than cosmetic.
I do have some videos but not sure how to share them as they are big files.
I'm the same way. You did the polishing with a dremel?
I'd say youtube but them being so anti-2A, i'm not sure it's worth your time it would probably be flagged.
What is the standard coating on the non DLC'ed bolt bodies? Also, does anyone run a polished uncoated bolt? Any issues with stickiness or galling?
Ryan
Ryan
Here is my new TL3 build
TL3
Proof 18inch 6.5cm barrel
Trigger Tech Diamond
KRG Whiskey 3 Chassis
Atlas Bipod
TL3
Proof 18inch 6.5cm barrel
Trigger Tech Diamond
KRG Whiskey 3 Chassis
Atlas Bipod
It's actually not NP3. We use a PVD coating (CrN) to coat the bolt bodies and bolt heads. It's similar to DLC but leaves the bolt body and bolt head with the "bare" stainless look. We have seen the bolts be Cerakote'd and still run well. Outside of that, we don't recommend changing the finish of the bolt body or bolt head, they're designed to work well without any additional work. If you run into issues with one of these components, please let us know so we can have it addressed immediately.
Thank you - Ray
@BigHorn / ZAI Team i posted this in the gunsmith section too. Just finished my build on a tl3 long action, I'm new to this. Gunsmith fit the barrel to the action, I picked up the barreled action from them and I put on the trigger and dropped it in the chassis.
Cocks and dry fires great. But had fail to fires on all live ammo I tried, really light primer strikes.
Anything I can try to troubleshoot before sending it back to the Smith? Was hoping to shoot this weekend.
Bighorn reached out to me and corrected the issue, it's an issue with the Calvin Elite trigger. But they can shave the cocking piece to eliminate the sear dragging it. Fixed it then shipped it out the day after receiving it! Unbelievable customer service!
Great looking rifle! Can you give any details on the camo finish on the MPA. I am wondering if you just sprayed it on yourself over a black finish? Thanks!
Thank you,
Yes I used a sea sponge from lowes, chassis is sniper green from MPA, I layed down black, brown then tan. I posted the steps and pics showing process over in the DIY section of the forum, there is a thread over there with a bunch of DIY rattle can paint jobs.
Thanks for the info. I will see if I can find the DIY section with your posting.
This is the exact build I want PVA to build for me. But I am going with powder blue to represent my SD Chargers!
How does it shoot? What factory match ammo have you tried and which stand out?
Thanks!
Have to shot it yet, hopefully next weekend, I have some cheap 55grainers from wal mart, prime 77gr, hornady ELD's.
I had the same issue with my Timney 511 trigger. The customer service was absolutely first class.
A question on the shouldered prefits, do they come caliber marked? Curious if everything is so consistent that the chamberer can mark them in a repeatable place. Not so much that I care about the barrel marking, but I would like to get the quick change wrench flats done when I order a barrel if it is possible.
My PVA shouldered barrel came to me marked and it is indexed perfectly where you can read it right above the stock
All my shouldered barrels from different gunsmiths index the engraving the same on both my TL3 actions.
Went out today.
Shot some 5.56 surplus green tip stuff, Winchester 65gr, frontier 68gr, federal 55gr and Prime 77gr.... no surprise the prime shot lights out. Prime was excellent first round impacts out to 630 yds on varying sizes of steel. At 760 I had a miss, corrected my wind and hit, moved to 895 yds had 5 rounds left, missed the first 2 again wind was constant 5mph gusting 8mph, went 3 for 3 on the remaining rounds on an 8" swinger. None of the misses were vertical, they were all horizontal due to the wind. I believe the prime is the ticket and very consistent. I told myself I would never be the dude to post groups but I can't help it be tickled about how this thing shot. Not pictured is the other ammo I shot, but they all fell between .70" and 1" in group size. I shot 2 strings of 5 for each make of ammo all off bipod and rear bag.
p.s. If you're in the SD area, I was shooting out at pala rifle range today. I'll be there next weekend most likely as well. Pm me if interested on linking up
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What shops are doing the shouldered TL3 prefits in a MTU contour? Any that are milling the wrench flats by the muzzle?
Have a separate rifle being built by PVA. Think they are pretty backlogged with all the group buys so looking to spread some of the love to another shop.
Have a separate rifle being built by PVA. Think they are pretty backlogged with all the group buys so looking to spread some of the love to another shop.
Shouldered Proof install question.
Is there any special considerations on installing a shouldered proof? Or is the standard barrel vise ok? The concern is that the barrel vise would mess up the carbon barrel?
Asking for a friend, legitimately
Is there any special considerations on installing a shouldered proof? Or is the standard barrel vise ok? The concern is that the barrel vise would mess up the carbon barrel?
Asking for a friend, legitimately
I just shot my first match with my TL3 .223 barrel. Used my .30-cal suppressor too. It was fun, and a bit more difficult than shooting my Dasher. I used factory ammo, but the gun range and cycled perfectly.
About to shoot the first match this weekend with mine, shall see how it goes!
Here's my 223 built on a DLC'd TL3. Manners T4A, 24" 7.7 twist M24 contour Bartlein barrel, chambered by Greg @ SPR.
I was having some feeding issues and I am actually running a push feed bolt head from Bighorn now without any issues. Greg was able to get the CRF to run with some of his mags, so it seems that my mags just need some tuning. I will say that all my mags run smoothly with the push feed bolt head, and none of them run with the CRF bolt head, and this is with 4 different mags and a single feed bob sled. So it is pretty clear to me that the push feed bolt head is a lot more lenient when it comes to feeding the 223 cartridge.
For now, I am pretty content just running it as a push feed action as I do a lot of single feed loading when I am just chilling at the range with a "bobsled" mag and the push feed is working perfectly for that.
The gun is shooting sub half minute pretty easily with factory ammo. I felt I was definitely pulling a few shots as it had been a few weeks since I last shot. I expect the groups to tighten up some more with hand loads.
I was having some feeding issues and I am actually running a push feed bolt head from Bighorn now without any issues. Greg was able to get the CRF to run with some of his mags, so it seems that my mags just need some tuning. I will say that all my mags run smoothly with the push feed bolt head, and none of them run with the CRF bolt head, and this is with 4 different mags and a single feed bob sled. So it is pretty clear to me that the push feed bolt head is a lot more lenient when it comes to feeding the 223 cartridge.
For now, I am pretty content just running it as a push feed action as I do a lot of single feed loading when I am just chilling at the range with a "bobsled" mag and the push feed is working perfectly for that.
The gun is shooting sub half minute pretty easily with factory ammo. I felt I was definitely pulling a few shots as it had been a few weeks since I last shot. I expect the groups to tighten up some more with hand loads.
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I thought all bighorns were CRF only, I didnt know they made a pushfeed head?
The TL and TL2 were pushfeed.
So the TL3 is backwards compatible?
I guess so. I wasn't aware of that, but it seems Xander is running his as such!
I thought all bighorns were CRF only, I didnt know they made a pushfeed head?
For those curious... All TL3's are only offered as CRF to my knowledge... BUT, Bighorn has manufactured some push-feed bolt heads that they specifically made for the 223AI cartridge because of some feeding difficulties that some users of that cartridge have experienced.
I am not sure if they are just bolt heads from the previous versions of the TL action but they just have a nice sliding claw extractor and still utilize the same slot for the mechanical ejector.
Clearly there are many people running TL3's as 223 rifles without any feeding issues, but I was having some difficulties despite trying multiple mags and a few other miscellaneous things that Greg @ SPR was kind enough to help me with. Bighorn was also helpful and offered to send me the push-feed bolt head as a direct exchange for the CRF one. I opted to just buy the extra bolt head so I will still have the option in the future to run the CRF if I ever take the time to get my mags feeding.
To clarify, I was having issues with the cartridge hanging up as it entered the chamber. It kind of seemed like it was getting caught on the chamber's entrance, but when I removed the extractor from the CRF bolt head, everything functioned perfectly. I sent the rifle to Greg and he helped me troubleshoot it. He had the CRF functioning with some of his mags, but mine would not function properly. Both Bighorn and Josh @ PVA mentioned that the chamfer on the leading edge of the chamber might be too small and causing the round to jam up. Greg removed the barrel and increased the size of the chamfer but it didn't seem to make much of a difference. The swap to the push-feed bolt head was the biggest improvement.
Long story short, when I received the rifle back from Greg, I did feed testing with the push-feed bolt head and all of my mags fed great. When switching to the CRF bolt head, it will feed, but it is a bit rougher and less reliable. I am pretty sure that I could get the CRF functioning, but it is far from my priority. The push feed is very smooth and I am enjoying the action and the rifle now.
I would also like to mention that Greg Young is a stand-up guy and I would certainly do more business with him. His lead time was spot on for delivering the prefit barrel, and then when I was having issues he offered right away for me to send him the complete rifle to troubleshoot. He did everything that I asked him to do and was great with communication. I also had him do some cosmetic work to my Manners T4A while he had it. The ejection port of the stock didn't line up with the action, and the barrel channel was off-center. He cleaned up both of these things and now it looks great. He also skim-bedded my mini-chassis at my request, and it is a nice tight bedding job. He did this, helped me troubleshoot the feeding issues, and sent the rifle back to me within 2 weeks of receiving it (which included some time waiting for the new bolt head from Bighorn).
Your setup looks familiar.
Almost a quantified, standard recipie for build components that will produce a competitive rifle
Just got my second. 6BR/.223 for trainer and my boy. ?
Looks like I’ve decided on a TL-3 for my first customer rifle. Anyone have recommendations for a builder? Hopefully someone that doesn’t take 4 months lol. Thanks
You! Unless there are other aspects of the build that require a gunsmith, I vote you put it together. Get a shouldered barrel from Bugholes (Southern Precision Rifles) or Keystone Accuracy, or several other places that offer shouldered Bighorn barrels, and an action wrench and you're good to go. The benefits are shorter lead times, cheaper costs, and the satisfaction of putting it all together yourself.
DIY! Get the action wrench, viper barrel vise, a torque wrench, some anti seize grease and you're set! So much gratification doing it yourself. If you played with legos as a child you can do this. If you built an AR upper or lower as an adult you can do this.
