I think Brownells really did you good with your gift card credit. Let's be real...Brownells will not be able to sale either one of these scopes again without taking a huge loss on them. Their only salvation may be that they return them to the manufacturer for credit, otherwise, they take a huge loss. It is not like you returned the scopes because they were defective. Did you not realize that you didn't like the features on the initial inspection right out of the box. Besides why did you buy two of them? I say this because I worked at Wal-Mart many years ago when their return policy was much more liberal than it is today. I would have been ashamed to bring back many of the items that people would bring back (bicycles with no tread, VCR that had been used for years, tv used for years, etc.,). Because of this, they have become more restrictive on their returns. It also ultimately cost everyone because of these libetal return policies since the business is forced to write off this return for a loss. As you know, any loss for a business whether it be a return, breakage, or theft is paid for by increasing prices on your other merchandise.
- Thread starter Adam B
- Start date
And why did it take the OP so long to realize "he doesn't like them"? I don't think people realize that a company that sells you something has no legal obligation to accept a return if said item does not violate the implied warranty of merchantability.
Buying something and deciding to return because you don't like it does not require the seller to take it back and refund your money.
The scopes the OP purchased pass every requirement of the law:
For goods to be merchantable, they must be at least such as:
Buying something and deciding to return because you don't like it does not require the seller to take it back and refund your money.
The scopes the OP purchased pass every requirement of the law:
For goods to be merchantable, they must be at least such as:
- (a) pass without objection in the trade under the contract description; and
- (b) in the case of fungible goods, are of fair average quality within the description; and
- (c) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used; and
- (d) run, within the variations permitted by the agreement, of an even kind, quality within each unit and among all units involved; and
- (e) are adequately contained, packaged and labeled as the agreement may require; and
- (f) conform to the promise or affirmations of fact made on the container or label if any
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I never knew that existed, but generally didn't buy much from them as they are never the cheapest and its not exactly hard to find gun shit on the internet.
What really knocked them completely off the list was the last time I ordered from them and the item went MIA in the mail. USPS said it was delivered, but it wasn't to me. Mind you, it was a $12 reloading part.
Over the years I had small issues with things like bullets being packed weird/not at all and breaking open and misssing half of them; just general dumb stuff. A simple phone call usually fixed it and a replacment or credit or something sufficient was taken care of within 5 minutes. At least they have customer service.
Last time I called with the reloading part missing, the lady on the phone told me to call USPS and open a case. I told her this isn't my problem, its yours. Seeing as how we all know how serious USPS would look into this (lol) and the fact its a 12$ part, I suggested they just send me a replacment and I'll send back the extra one if the other ever turns up. Didn't want to do that at all and said they'd call USPS and after the 30 days USPS needs to work a claim they'll determine what to do.
Uh, no. I didn't pay 12$ for something I needed today, to wait 30+ days for someone to do something about it. How about you issue me a refund for this, you go circlejerk with USPS and that'll be that?
Lady literally says: Sounds like you're trying to steal this from us.
Motherfucker, what?
Yes you dumb cunt, you caught me. I run an international consortium where we order 12$ parts that are only used by a reloader and then spend countless hours on the phone with room temperature level IQ people who peaked their 2nd year of highschool trying to scam them to send us a refund or a second one for 'free', which we then flip and make trillions of dollars off of in the black market. How the fuck did you know? Are you a wizard? Is this what you do on your off day from the fucking FBI?
Anyways, I went full Karen, and asked to speak to the supervisor. You could hear in the chicks voice that she was all of a sudden concerned. I didn't give a shit. Long story short, talked to a supervisor who also wanted to circle jerk with USPS for 30+ days to which I told her good luck with that. After she didn't try and hide the fact she couldn't care less as to the outcome of this, I mentioned just charging it back, she magically offered to refund me for it and gave me the 'we dont normally do this, but Ill do it this once' bullshit.
To this day I never had it delivered. I've also never ordered anything from Brownells again either.
What really knocked them completely off the list was the last time I ordered from them and the item went MIA in the mail. USPS said it was delivered, but it wasn't to me. Mind you, it was a $12 reloading part.
Over the years I had small issues with things like bullets being packed weird/not at all and breaking open and misssing half of them; just general dumb stuff. A simple phone call usually fixed it and a replacment or credit or something sufficient was taken care of within 5 minutes. At least they have customer service.
Last time I called with the reloading part missing, the lady on the phone told me to call USPS and open a case. I told her this isn't my problem, its yours. Seeing as how we all know how serious USPS would look into this (lol) and the fact its a 12$ part, I suggested they just send me a replacment and I'll send back the extra one if the other ever turns up. Didn't want to do that at all and said they'd call USPS and after the 30 days USPS needs to work a claim they'll determine what to do.
Uh, no. I didn't pay 12$ for something I needed today, to wait 30+ days for someone to do something about it. How about you issue me a refund for this, you go circlejerk with USPS and that'll be that?
Lady literally says: Sounds like you're trying to steal this from us.
Motherfucker, what?
Yes you dumb cunt, you caught me. I run an international consortium where we order 12$ parts that are only used by a reloader and then spend countless hours on the phone with room temperature level IQ people who peaked their 2nd year of highschool trying to scam them to send us a refund or a second one for 'free', which we then flip and make trillions of dollars off of in the black market. How the fuck did you know? Are you a wizard? Is this what you do on your off day from the fucking FBI?
Anyways, I went full Karen, and asked to speak to the supervisor. You could hear in the chicks voice that she was all of a sudden concerned. I didn't give a shit. Long story short, talked to a supervisor who also wanted to circle jerk with USPS for 30+ days to which I told her good luck with that. After she didn't try and hide the fact she couldn't care less as to the outcome of this, I mentioned just charging it back, she magically offered to refund me for it and gave me the 'we dont normally do this, but Ill do it this once' bullshit.
To this day I never had it delivered. I've also never ordered anything from Brownells again either.
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well they (seller) certainly have a legal 'right' to accept a return. i think you meant 'obligation.'
but they do have an obligation to the extent of their stated policy.
Cool story, thanks for sharing it with us.
$550, cash
$525
I'm sure the forever return policy has been abused past the point of sustainability - just like everything these days. I know I've been guilty of it a couple of times.
I'm old enough to remember looking through Brownells catalog like it was the Sears Wishbook. I've built as many guns in my head from that book as I've built hotrods from JC Whitney's. For that reason, I guess just nostalgia, Brownells still gets a fair amount of my business.
I own Three or four of the Gunsmithing screwdriver sets from Brownells. I broke a bit once on a set that was probably 25 years old. I called Brownells to order a replacement, and they told me “oh no you don’t need to do that, it’s guaranteed and we will replace it.
I mentioned it was from a 25+ year old set that had been dropped a time or ten. The lady asked me how the case was holding up. I said it’s a bit cracked but still works fine. A few days later, a replacement bit showed up in a brand new case.
I wouldn’t even dream of returning something that was just a buyer’s remorse or just “oh I don’t like it”.
Brownells has been great to me even if they’re not the cheapest.
I mentioned it was from a 25+ year old set that had been dropped a time or ten. The lady asked me how the case was holding up. I said it’s a bit cracked but still works fine. A few days later, a replacement bit showed up in a brand new case.
I wouldn’t even dream of returning something that was just a buyer’s remorse or just “oh I don’t like it”.
Brownells has been great to me even if they’re not the cheapest.
Never had this type of issue from Brownells because I've never had any problem with anything I've ordered. Granted, I'm not ordering 2 scopes sight unseen either; but I think they were fair. I do find myself ordering from Midway again too after years of not ordering from them. I'm always up for other stores; but those two have decent websites that are fairly well designed. Heck Midway was the Go-To place for defensive ammo 15 years ago.
I even toyed with one of those scopes recently but wasn't sure about the reticle. In fact, I remember specifically people mentioning they'd buy them and turn them back in if they didn't like them. I don't know who it was, but I don't think it was the OP. So with attitudes like that I can see why they've had to tighten the rules.
I even toyed with one of those scopes recently but wasn't sure about the reticle. In fact, I remember specifically people mentioning they'd buy them and turn them back in if they didn't like them. I don't know who it was, but I don't think it was the OP. So with attitudes like that I can see why they've had to tighten the rules.
"the customer is never wrong" bs
A company is bound to follow their return policy at the time of purchase. So, if their policy said they will take it back, then they do have to take it back.
So entitled, much whining.
I had the stupid ass post office screw up a delivery on some glock mags and they ended up destroying them for whatever reason. There was some error on the address. I called Brownells and they overnighted me two new ones. I would say that they have excellent customer service.
Op, you got to count your blessings on this one. It could have ended up going like this -
Op: “I’d like to return two scopes”
Brownells: “Sure, what exactly is wrong with them, don’t hold zero, broken turrets, won’t track, fell apart?”
Op: “Nothing is wrong with them, I just don’t like them.”
Brownells: “Nope, fuck off!”
If I was in your shoes I’d be jumping for joy that I got my cash back via gift cards. If you need cash that bad go sell them to one of those online gift card buying places for a 35% loss.
Op: “I’d like to return two scopes”
Brownells: “Sure, what exactly is wrong with them, don’t hold zero, broken turrets, won’t track, fell apart?”
Op: “Nothing is wrong with them, I just don’t like them.”
Brownells: “Nope, fuck off!”
If I was in your shoes I’d be jumping for joy that I got my cash back via gift cards. If you need cash that bad go sell them to one of those online gift card buying places for a 35% loss.
Hi,
But their policy at the time of his purchase made no such statements....that is half the OP complaint; that Brownells did not directly contact him to let him know their long standing policy had been updated..even though companies have a right to change their policy with asking or notifying anyone.
Sincerely,
Theis
That was a response to Centuinator saying. "They were not obligated to take it back at all." They were and took it back according to their listed policy. No fuss, no muss. I would say Brownelles did pretty well by the OP.
Broke a decapping pin on my Dillon 550 some time back trying to knock the primers out of military brass. I Called to orde a replacement pin. Guy at Dillon asked how I broke it. I told him it was my fault misadjusted my die, militarily brass, etc. They sent me 6 free of charge. Did me a solid.
WRONG
I have had several interactions with Brownells customer service and everyone was with stellar results. Some involved refunds and some exchanges and 1lost package. I think they are a great company and enjoy supporting them by recommending them and with purchases.
Sometimes life doesn’t go how we would like it. That doesn’t mean the outcome is unfair.
Sometimes life doesn’t go how we would like it. That doesn’t mean the outcome is unfair.
Most places dont give you jack after 15 days.
Still got it? I'll send you TWO cans of 800-something count in cardboards, on stripper clips, SS109/CCImilspec primer/LC brass/24.5gr. H335 +/- ~.5gr. loaded to mag length and more accurate than Arc Light's shit for that gift card...
$2495 for 1k M855, damn... "Cheaper than Dirt" my ass, them and Sportsman's Warehouse are two places I will NEVER deal with again. BOTH sent me a box of rust when I ordered "new/like new" Austrian FAL mags way back when. They did take 'em back but I was ready to drive cross country to slash tires over that if they didn't.
OH, if that doesn't do it for 'ya, got two cans of LC 03 and I know it came from a better than usual lot. Same deal, carboards and strippers but I think those might even have bandoleers.
Forever Guarantee
I have a Sinclair bore guide , bought it 25 years ago. Its a white solid plastic rod fits snug in the rem700 action.
Wait , Brownells owns Sinclair , maybe I can return it!
I have a Sinclair bore guide , bought it 25 years ago. Its a white solid plastic rod fits snug in the rem700 action.
Wait , Brownells owns Sinclair , maybe I can return it!
Absolute best service ever and stood by their shit in no particular order:
Elite Iron
Euro Optic
Cameraland
TBAC
KAC
Cammenga
Winkler Knives (BIG fucking hats off to them)
Kriss --after winning an argument though.
Vortex (another BIG hats off and big thanks for what they did for a member here recently)
Glock
S&W
Jard
Dillon
Operation Parts
TNVC
Rainier Arms
AAFES (just no tax, better deals than blue label when on sale)
Vickers
EoTech
Trijicon
Desert Tactical
Grays Harbor Guns (Honorable Mention)
Capitol Armory (Honorable Mention)
All of the above have had superior CS, went above and beyond, paid shipping both ways, etc. Jard replaced a trigger that just never worked right --after five years at least, sent me a newer model and they've really improved in quality. Cammenga took back a compass that I lost and found after a brush fire in the army, was already a few years old --replaced it with a much better model that had to cost a fortune. I still have it. Vortex supplied a scope to a member plus a bunch of really nice swag for free when we pitched in to build him a rifle recently. KAC sold me a rifle and a ton of shit including 10 mags, cleaning kit plus bolt parts, various URX4 shit all for MSRP for just the rifle. Winkler I'm not sure if I can say but if you're a vet, military or LE you need to call them.
I know there are others I'm forgetting, the list just goes on. Bottom line is it's usually better to deal directly with mfg.
Fuck you list (at least it's short):
Midway USA and "Hi I'm Larry Greedbag Potterfield" (sold fucking airsoft parts as AR parts, gave me huge shit to take it back, sent the wrong shit three times and I had to pay shipping each time, refused to unfuck and send me the part I needed after all the shit until they got the third fuckup back --last time I spent a shekel with 'em was a decade ago). Will sell knockoff shit if they can get away with it. Wouldn't trust my life with anything from Midway because I can't be positive it's not a knockoff. Thanks to Vickers for stepping in and forcing them to stop selling knockoff slings and for replacing the knockoff they sold me out of pocket.
Cheaper than Iridium and Sportsman's Warehouse for sending a box of rust and charging me $400 for it (not kidding, these mags looked like battlefield archeology artifacts from WW1 and not "new" FAL mags). If you can do that with a straight face, fuck you, return or not.
Butch's Guns, Seattle (communist motherfucker really laid into me for using buckshot and not birdshot for defense --he got really pissed when I told him I lived around the corner and kept an M4 handy and the shotty for fucking around, wish I had the M2 then).
Marksman Puyallup (Hey asshole, it's not your goddamn competition calling to price shop you, it's your fucking customers! Thanks for wasting more trips than I care to count, thank god you not my local anymore).
Elite Iron
Euro Optic
Cameraland
TBAC
KAC
Cammenga
Winkler Knives (BIG fucking hats off to them)
Kriss --after winning an argument though.
Vortex (another BIG hats off and big thanks for what they did for a member here recently)
Glock
S&W
Jard
Dillon
Operation Parts
TNVC
Rainier Arms
AAFES (just no tax, better deals than blue label when on sale)
Vickers
EoTech
Trijicon
Desert Tactical
Grays Harbor Guns (Honorable Mention)
Capitol Armory (Honorable Mention)
All of the above have had superior CS, went above and beyond, paid shipping both ways, etc. Jard replaced a trigger that just never worked right --after five years at least, sent me a newer model and they've really improved in quality. Cammenga took back a compass that I lost and found after a brush fire in the army, was already a few years old --replaced it with a much better model that had to cost a fortune. I still have it. Vortex supplied a scope to a member plus a bunch of really nice swag for free when we pitched in to build him a rifle recently. KAC sold me a rifle and a ton of shit including 10 mags, cleaning kit plus bolt parts, various URX4 shit all for MSRP for just the rifle. Winkler I'm not sure if I can say but if you're a vet, military or LE you need to call them.
I know there are others I'm forgetting, the list just goes on. Bottom line is it's usually better to deal directly with mfg.
Fuck you list (at least it's short):
Midway USA and "Hi I'm Larry Greedbag Potterfield" (sold fucking airsoft parts as AR parts, gave me huge shit to take it back, sent the wrong shit three times and I had to pay shipping each time, refused to unfuck and send me the part I needed after all the shit until they got the third fuckup back --last time I spent a shekel with 'em was a decade ago). Will sell knockoff shit if they can get away with it. Wouldn't trust my life with anything from Midway because I can't be positive it's not a knockoff. Thanks to Vickers for stepping in and forcing them to stop selling knockoff slings and for replacing the knockoff they sold me out of pocket.
Cheaper than Iridium and Sportsman's Warehouse for sending a box of rust and charging me $400 for it (not kidding, these mags looked like battlefield archeology artifacts from WW1 and not "new" FAL mags). If you can do that with a straight face, fuck you, return or not.
Butch's Guns, Seattle (communist motherfucker really laid into me for using buckshot and not birdshot for defense --he got really pissed when I told him I lived around the corner and kept an M4 handy and the shotty for fucking around, wish I had the M2 then).
Marksman Puyallup (Hey asshole, it's not your goddamn competition calling to price shop you, it's your fucking customers! Thanks for wasting more trips than I care to count, thank god you not my local anymore).
why?
Why? There are no laws requiring retailers to the policy in place when you purchased something. They will usually do so, but that is just a courtesy they extend.
Like I said, most people don't realize that the whole idea of "buy it and return it" is totally on the retailers, they don't have to offer any returns at all.
So, the OP, buys scopes, waits six weeks to decide, "Gosh, I don't like them" and then whines that they are "just" giving him credit on a house account.
Like I said, most people don't realize that the whole idea of "buy it and return it" is totally on the retailers, they don't have to offer any returns at all.
So, the OP, buys scopes, waits six weeks to decide, "Gosh, I don't like them" and then whines that they are "just" giving him credit on a house account.
In fairness to the OP, if you use the internet wayback machine (yes, there is such a thing), it says very clearly in Oct. that you can return an item for ANY reason. It even says that if you just don't like it, you can return it. It mentions the 45 days but also doesn't limit that to getting your money back. Then, in the middle of January, it shows the page wording changed to say after 45 days it would be a gift card.
I don't know how accurate the wayback machine is but if it's only showing changes and it shows the change happened AFTER he bought it in December of 2019, then he's clearly right here.
I don't know how accurate the wayback machine is but if it's only showing changes and it shows the change happened AFTER he bought it in December of 2019, then he's clearly right here.
They changed the policy in November.
i don't have any case law to throw at you, but a seller's written policies (returns, warranties, etc) aren't just 'courtesies' that they can honor or ignore at their whim. if they have policies, and you relied on them when making your order, then you can hold them accountable if they don't perform.
That's something I don't know. The wayback machine seems to capture changes made to sites pretty well. It shows no changes on that page from Oct. until Jan. which is why I mentioned it. Perhaps they did, I don't know but seeing the change dates was enough to make me wonder whether or not they changed it in November or January. Is there something out there that shows it was changed in November (just curious, not looking to argue)? For me, I have no dog in the fight, but it's a curious thing to see the old site wording and then see it change in January.
Well the OPs own post said that the policy changed in November before he purchased the scopes in December. If he’s posting incorrect facts, that’s on him. If you want to be an internet sleuth, you could just email their CS department and ask them when the change went into affect.
They told me when I called them that the policy changed in November, I have no proof of that other than what they told me.
Is there a reason you have such a hardon for this, do you work for them?
No, I certainly do not work for them.
Probably because you came on here bashing a company for honoring their return policy after you essentially dicked them over by returning two scopes and then bitching about only getting store credit.
I was under the assumption of the old return policy since I never received any heads up on the change, which is a major change btw. I didn't dick anyone over, the scopes were in new condition.
Brownells used to have the best customer service. Now after 15 days of excuses over missing ammo in a shipment. So and so is at lunch everytime. Refusing to pay $ FedEx said was owed by shipper. FedEx paid them and said FedEx was at fault but sent $ to Brownells. Not doing business with them unless things are drastically changed.
Ok not dicked over, but returned as opened and handled. Not ethically resellable at full retail price. Unfortunately, operating under an assumption is not a defendable position. You returned their merchandise after an extended time, in a different state of condition than what you received it in. They met their stated obligation that you willingly agreed upon when completing the purchase and refunded you in its accordance. Those are the facts. I will lay off of you now, because you are much more emotionally attached to the situation than I am and internet bickering never solves anything.
Just for reference, if you enter their site for Dec. 31st, 2019 according to the wayback machine, it shows this, which is deceptive because it pulls the page from Jan. 11, 2020 when it pulls up the return page, slightly indicating that the page/policy was not updated until Jan. 11, not November. I suspect (and I could be wrong), if they changed the page, it would have captured it. It appears to search for changes and only capture pages that have changed, so it indicates that as of Dec. 31, 2019, the policy had not changed :
Jan. 11, 2020 update :
"GUARANTEED. FOREVER. We carry high quality products and back them with the industry's strongest guarantee. If you buy a product from us and decide you don't need it, don't want it, or just didn't like it, we'll take it back at any time…with very few exceptions."
From the return page :
"Any items returned within 45 days of delivery are entitled to a refund to the original method of payment or identical exchange. If the original method of payment is cash, check or credit card that has expired, a Brownells gift card will be issued. Any items returned after 45 days of delivery will be issued store credit in the form of a Brownells Gift Card"
This is what it said on Oct 31, 2019, probably all the way through Jan. 11, 2020.
"We will refund the original purchase price to either your original method of payment or as a merchandise credit. If the original method of payment is cash, check or credit card that has expired, a Brownells gift card with be issued.
I find it interesting more than anything, again, no dog in the fight, just seeing if it's possible to figure it out one way or the other through the use of technology.
Jan. 11, 2020 update :
"GUARANTEED. FOREVER. We carry high quality products and back them with the industry's strongest guarantee. If you buy a product from us and decide you don't need it, don't want it, or just didn't like it, we'll take it back at any time…with very few exceptions."
From the return page :
"Any items returned within 45 days of delivery are entitled to a refund to the original method of payment or identical exchange. If the original method of payment is cash, check or credit card that has expired, a Brownells gift card will be issued. Any items returned after 45 days of delivery will be issued store credit in the form of a Brownells Gift Card"
This is what it said on Oct 31, 2019, probably all the way through Jan. 11, 2020.
"We will refund the original purchase price to either your original method of payment or as a merchandise credit. If the original method of payment is cash, check or credit card that has expired, a Brownells gift card with be issued.
I find it interesting more than anything, again, no dog in the fight, just seeing if it's possible to figure it out one way or the other through the use of technology.
Its easy to fix don't spend your money with them again . Then you have no more problem in the future . As for the difference between what you got back and what you paid call it a learning cost or press them that is totally up to you . either way good luck and I hope it turns out ok for you . It's sort of like stores when they stop giving refunds and only gave store credits why would anyone spend there money in a store that did that take your business elsewhere .
So that's how long he said he had it before he returned it.
So essentially you are confirming what Brownells did was correct according to their stated policy at the time.
It's the same kinda person who would go to Wal-Mart, buy a pressure washer , pressure wash there house and then take it back for a refund .
Buying something KNOWING your just gonna take it back after you've used it is pretty shady !
They are a retailer, not an individual private seller. You opened the scopes, used the for 48 days and sent them back. That likely costs them 5-10% retail on each of them as they'll have to sell them as open box or demos now.
But you got a full value refund to store credit, that's all that matters, right?
No, not at all. Initially when I started looking at it, it appeared like it had changed after Oct 2019, but then when I looked at it again, I realized it was pulling the 45 day document from Jan. 11, not from the actual date shown. If you look at the post I made after that, it shows what might have been the policy until Jan. 11, 2020, which clearly states you'll get your money back.
You can look at it yourself. Just keep an eye at the date at the top center of the page when you are looking. If you go to Dec 30, 2019 and you click on the "returns" page, the date up top will switch to Jan. 11, 2020.
Give it a try, it's pretty neat to be able to do :
Enjoy!
First and foremost I had no intention of buying it to just turn around and return it. I wanted to see if was living up to the hype that it had. It didnt and so I opted to take advantage of their own return policy pre January 11
Brownells’ goal is to make purchasing and returning products as simple as possible. If you buy a product from Brownells and decide you don’t need it, don’t want it, or just don’t like it, we’ll take it back any time with a few exceptions.
We require proof of purchase to honor all refunds. Only the original account or purchaser may return an item. Please include your proof of purchase with the products you wish to return in their original packaging if possible. We will refund the original purchase price to either your original method of payment or as a merchandise credit. If the original method of payment is cash, check or credit card that has expired, a Brownells gift card with be issued.
Any returns received that do not qualify for refund will be returned to the customer at their expense. This includes items that are non-returnable, misused, lacking proof of purchase, special orders or not purchased from Brownells. Some perishable items may be eligible for return if returned within 30 days from the date of purchase. Brownells inspects all returned products and reserve the right to decline returns or exchanges. Other restrictions may apply.
I wasnt refering to u personally, I was making a general statement . Now since you want to drag me into your argument then ok. If you bought them to take for a test drive , then why buy 2 , so you can be twice as fucked when they don't meet your expectations. Maybe next time you test drive one and IF you like it, order a second. That way if it doesn't work out your only left holding one turd and not two.
And it clearly states if original payment is exspired a gift card will be issued . you got your money back, no turd in hand . Be glad !
While I see the point of view of the OP, I’m assuming their long standing policy likely had something along the line of “subject to change at anytime” along with a responsibility for consumer to be familiar with terms of service and such before buying.
So, while a technicality, they have literally been telling people for 20 years it may happen.
So, while a technicality, they have literally been telling people for 20 years it may happen.
