Bullet going to sleep

[jphil108]

I have a theory that this “sleeping bullet” thing comes from guys that shoot a .30-06 10 shots a year, and always have a scope pegged out on high magnification. I think with a flinch inducing round and someone who doesn’t shoot regularly or with good form, combined with a dickhead chasing every little wobble his reticle makes at 100 yards on 24X, when he closes his eyes as the trigger breaks he doesn’t have a clue what he’s lined up on. at 2-300 he can’t see all those little motions away from the orange dot so he doesn’t move the rifle around chasing the reticle as much.

I knew “gunsmith” who swore by the sleeping bullet thing, his groups at 100 tightened up a lot when I asked him to humor me and dial his centerpoint special back to 4x.

 

[Newbie2020]

That’s been the general consensus.

You never hear about it happening w a 6BR or dasher or creed or even a 308win. It’s always w a butt kicker. Can this thread be transferred to all the other Hunter and long range and campfire forums? I’m afraid those are a more fruitful fount of fuddery than the Hide.

Now I need to figger out a way to gently convey this reality to ill-informed people I like who’ve been shooting a lot longer than me but who keep propagating hogwash.

#stop the fuddery

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.
The toxic meme of fuddery is hard to shift.
They love their Jedi bullets, sleeping rounds, and tumbling projectiles.

 

[Shifty6BR]

 

[Newbie2020]

Must be 6.5creed not 7SAUM or 300 Norma mag. Went straight to sleep right outta the barrel.

 

[supercorndogs]

I laughed so hard at this thread. I woke all my bullets up. Anyone know a lullaby?

 

[1moaoff]

Mine exist in a permanent coma until I give them a shot of adrenaline. Then they come to life for a brief time. Imagine if we could keep them awake all the time

 

[hafejd30]

All these years people have been coating bullets in molly,

When we should be coating them in Benadryl

 

[Tchitcherine]

Let Them Be Wrong.

 

[Im2bent]

I was told a while back, that some rounds tumble once they leave the barrel.
This is due to starting with minimum load data.
He had a young acolyte with him at the range.
The amount of dribbleshit he filled that young fellas head with.
View attachment 7626904

Is this diagram in moa or mils? It makes a difference if you think in inches. Or so I've heard.

 

[acudaowner]

 

[jakelly]

That’s been the general consensus.

You never hear about it happening w a 6BR or dasher or creed or even a 308win. It’s always w a butt kicker. Can this thread be transferred to all the other Hunter and long range and campfire forums? I’m afraid those are a more fruitful fount of fuddery than the Hide.

Now I need to figger out a way to gently convey this reality to ill-informed people I like who’ve been shooting a lot longer than me but who keep propagating hogwash.

#stop the fuddery

If a person believes in bullets steering themselves, unfortunately, there isn’t much you can do. Their logical mind and critical thinking abilities have been corrupted by countless lies.

I will say this much: the opposition to ignorance is knowledge, not counter-ignorance.

 

[338dude]

That's a new one ... sleeping bullets. I honestly don't know WTF that even is.

It is a term coined by Bryan Litz in one of his earlier books that he kind of backpedaled on a little later

 

[clcustom1911]

When they get bad groups at 100 yds and better groups at 200-300 yds they insist the bullet is cavitating out of the barrel then somehow decides to simmer down and just spin thus “going to sleep”

ive heard it a bunch lately and it’s got to go away....

Thats been common, cyclical Fudd Lore for as long as the internet has been the internet. I remember the first time I read it years ago, even before I had the level of knowledge I now have, and thinking "that makes zero sense". I'd ask them to explain how exactly it happened, and got the good ol' "I read it somewhere..." line of logic.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Well I have a true story of a bullet waking up. Shooting 90 grain SMK’s out of an XP-100 with a 1-7 twist using a .221 Fireball. Slightly oval holes at 50 meters and a decent group at 200 meters. (the maximum distance of the range) Decent being under 3 inches, hand held using Creedmoor hold with no rests. So obviously the bullet was sleeping as it left the barrel, stayed asleep past 50 meters and then woke up and then what came to its little bullet mind.......

”Straighten Up and Fly Right.” (They were obviously musical bullets)

 

[6.5SH]

It is a real phenomenon it just happens much closer to the muzzle than what gets attributed to it.

The whole video is interesting to listen to but the relevant part starts about 6:45

 

[J.Ed]

L.R Wallack wrote in his book "Modern Accuracy" (copyright 1951) about this issue. On page 104 he mentions that Mann's (?) experiments show the bullet traveling in an arc around the axis of the barrel, at some point spinning true, and further in their trajectory tumbling.
I do not know who Mann was.

 

[jhoyda]

As much as those two know, they don't know as much about the subject as true ballisticians like Dave Emary and Bryan Litz.

And I'm pretty sure neither buys into the bullets sleeping bullshit

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, 3rd Edition page 161 discusses bullets going to sleep. It was written by some guy named Bryan Litz. Must be a different guy.

This Bryan says: “Consider a bullet launched with marginal stability. This bullet will fly with some amount of pitching and yawing until SG [gyroscopic stability] improves enough (thru loss of velocity) to restore point forward flight. This phenomenon is often described as the bullet going to sleep.”

 

[308pirate]

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, 3rd Edition page 161 discusses bullets going to sleep. It was written by some guy named Bryan Litz. Must be a different guy.

This Bryan says: “Consider a bullet launched with marginal stability. This bullet will fly with some amount of pitching and yawing until SG [gyroscopic stability] improves enough (thru loss of velocity) to restore point forward flight. This phenomenon is often described as the bullet going to sleep.”

Who deliberately does that?

The people who hang their hat on the bullet going to sleep bullshit believe every bullet behaves that way.

Litz just told you they don't. Only those that are launched sub optimally.

Now what else you got?

 

[rustyinbend]

I was told a while back, that some rounds tumble once they leave the barrel.
This is due to starting with minimum load data.
He had a young acolyte with him at the range.
The amount of dribbleshit he filled that young fellas head with.
View attachment 7626904

OMG ... that's hysterical !!!

 

[rottenruger]

Well you can’t tell him they don’t go to sleep I mean look at this 105 hybrid he’s out cold!

Wow, that sleeper has everything but a c-pap.

 

[rottenruger]

How is the best way to explain to my friend that bullets don’t “go to sleep”?

Asking for a friend.....

Tell him bullets are designed to make OTHERS go to sleep.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Who deliberately does that?

I did! Knowing full well that the .224 90 SMK needed a 1-6.5 twist instead of the 1-7 twist of my barrel. Also, the Fireball hardly generated enough velocity (especially considering the 15 inch barrel) to make up for the lack of twist. I loaded ten of them and still have the remaining 40 or so bullets in their original box. Did this so long ago, the bullets and box may be about become antiques.

Why? Just curious.

 

[Ericbc7]

As someone once said “You cannot, by reason, change the ill opinion of a man which by reason was not obtained”.

 

[Sureshot300norma]

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/do-bullets-go-to-sleep.690/. According to this study , they can.

 

[jhoyda]

Who deliberately does that?

The people who hang their hat on the bullet going to sleep bullshit believe every bullet behaves that way.

Litz just told you they don't. Only those that are launched sub optimally.

Now what else you got?

You’re cute.

 

[akmike47]

Found‘em, this shits like Tinks 69 for fudds

 

[phlegethon]

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/do-bullets-go-to-sleep.690/. According to this study , they can.

They are talking about very slight rotation around the center of mass of the bullet. That would show up on target as individual bullet holes that are slightly out of round. It would not manifest as 2 or 3 MOA groups at 100 yards that then magically contract to 1 MOA at 1000 yards, which is the sort of thing people claim.

 

[308pirate]

You’re cute.

Yeah that's what I thought......copy/paste from a book with no understanding of what you're reading.

 

[308pirate]

I did! Knowing full well that the .224 90 SMK needed a 1-6.5 twist instead of the 1-7 twist of my barrel. Also, the Fireball hardly generated enough velocity (especially considering the 15 inch barrel) to make up for the lack of twist. I loaded ten of them and still have the remaining 40 or so bullets in their original box. Did this so long ago, the bullets and box may be about become antiques.

Why? Just curious.

Well that's one thing, to do it deliberately knowing what to expect.

It's something else entirely to make up BS theories or believe them without any critical thinking involved.

 

[hafejd30]

They are talking about very slight rotation around the center of mass of the bullet. That would show up on target as individual bullet holes that are slightly out of round. It would not manifest as 2 or 3 MOA groups at 100 yards that then magically contract to 1 MOA at 1000 yards, which is the sort of thing people claim.

Exactly ^^^

Nobody is saying a bullet can’t leave a barrel and suffer a stabilizing issue. The bullet weight and barrel twist coming into play here

What is being said is your gun that just shot a 1 MOA group at 100 yards will not shoot a 1/2 MOA group at 300 yards.

If you want to test this theory just put a target at 100 and 300 yards. The 300 is your aiming point. Set the 100 up as a simple “pass through” target so it doesn’t affect the flight of the bullet

If you believe in “sleepy” bullets you’ll have a group at 300 that measures less MOA than the group at 100. If you realize that bullets don’t magically curve back to the point of aim then the group at 100 will be the same MOA as the group at 300, theoretically

Once a bullet deflects off course it will not magically be brought back to center

That is the point of this train of thought

 

[jhoyda]

I'm questioning why I'm doing this (arguing with idiots and all), but here goes:

As much as those two know, they don't know as much about the subject as true ballisticians like Dave Emary and Bryan Litz.

And I'm pretty sure neither buys into the bullets sleeping bullshit

You, literally, said Bryan Litz does not buy into the "bullets sleeping bullshit." Granted, you couched your point with "pretty sure." This is demonstrably false. Bryan Litz discussed this in a book he has written which I pointed out:

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, 3rd Edition page 161 discusses bullets going to sleep. It was written by some guy named Bryan Litz. Must be a different guy.

This Bryan says: “Consider a bullet launched with marginal stability. This bullet will fly with some amount of pitching and yawing until SG [gyroscopic stability] improves enough (thru loss of velocity) to restore point forward flight. This phenomenon is often described as the bullet going to sleep.

Could have and should have ended there. It's obvious you were wrong.

Yeah that's what I thought......copy/paste from a book with no understanding of what you're reading.

And now you've set up a straw man. My original and sole point was that Litz has, in fact, discussed bullets "going to sleep." He does "buy into the bullshit."

If you wish to console yourself by claiming I don't understand the subject so be it. That's your childish prerogative.

 

[akmike47]

Found a good time to use our new word of the day....Cockwomble.

 

[308pirate]

I'm questioning why I'm doing this (arguing with idiots and all), but here goes:



You, literally, said Bryan Litz does not buy into the "bullets sleeping bullshit." Granted, you couched your point with "pretty sure." This is demonstrably false. Bryan Litz discussed this in a book he has written which I pointed out:



Could have and should have ended there. It's obvious you were wrong.



And now you've set up a straw man. My original and sole point was that Litz has, in fact, discussed bullets "going to sleep." He does "buy into the bullshit."

If you wish to console yourself by claiming I don't understand the subject so be it. That's your childish prerogative.

Context matters. You seem unable to grasp that.

A marginally stable bullet eventually improving gyroscopic stability (something no one intelligent would ever do on purpose) isn't what dumbasses think about when they say that bullets go to sleep.

Why don't you ask Litz if properly stabilized bullets improve their stability (ie go to sleep) as they move downrange?

 

[jhoyda]

Context matters. You seem unable to grasp that.

A marginally stable bullet eventually improving gyroscopic stability (something no one intelligent would ever do on purpose) isn't what dumbasses think about when they say that bullets go to sleep.

Why don't you ask Litz if properly stabilized bullets improve their stability (ie go to sleep) as they move downrange?

We’re done here Chief. Let it go.

 

[308pirate]

We’re done here Chief. Let it go.

I'll let it go when I please

 

[spife7980]

Wobbly bullets arent the same as bullets altering their path in mid air to steer themselves back on course.

 

[BoltRunner]

Ughhh I cant believe I'm back here reading this shit again but I clicked on this thread anyway... Its like reading theories from Flat Earthers or outlandish conspiracy theories that have no real data to back anything up, just a bunch of things people have heard or bits and pieces of articles to try and make things seem true...

 

[BoltRunner]

I had an Enfield .303 British that I had a gunsmith cut a couple inches off the barrel and re-crown, long story short he fucked up the crown and it would keyhole terribly from 30yds to 100yds obviously because the fucked up crown was pushing the bullet out of the muzzle. Apparently I should have shot it out to 1000yds it would have shot perfect 1/2 MOA groups after "Waking Up"... I thought the rifle/crown was just fucked up I just didn't realize it was a "sleepy" rifle/projectile and with more distance things would have stabilized and got better

 

[Odysseus1911]

We’re done here Chief. Let it go.

We're done here? Chief? Let it go? Man, somebody's puffed up this morning.

Since you're so much smarter than all us idiots, let me ask you point blank: do you believe a gun (independant of human variables) can be capable of better precision (groups of smaller angular measure) at 300 yards than it can at 100 yards?

 

[jakelly]

That ECortina and Speedy conversation pretty well covers it.

I haven’t seen one person yet state that bullets steer toward POA. Yet myself and others have been accused of it. Letting the magic steering bullets guys steal the term “go to sleep” or “settle” is absurd. We’re throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is important information being conveyed here, and you guys are mocking anyone who acknowledges it.

 

[Odysseus1911]

That ECortina and Speedy conversation pretty well covers it.

I haven’t seen one person yet state that bullets steer toward POA. Yet myself and others have been accused of it. Letting the magic steering bullets guys steal the term “go to sleep” or “settle” is absurd. We’re throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is important information being conveyed here, and you guys are mocking anyone who acknowledges it.

No, as stated originally, we're specifically mocking Fudds who talk about sleeping bullets waking up and steering themselves back on course. Because that's what Fudds are talking about when they refer to sleeping bullets.

 

[Choid]

I have a theory that this “sleeping bullet” thing comes from guys that shoot a .30-06 10 shots a year, and always have a scope pegged out on high magnification. I think with a flinch inducing round and someone who doesn’t shoot regularly or with good form, combined with a dickhead chasing every little wobble his reticle makes at 100 yards on 24X, when he closes his eyes as the trigger breaks he doesn’t have a clue what he’s lined up on. at 2-300 he can’t see all those little motions away from the orange dot so he doesn’t move the rifle around chasing the reticle as much.

I knew “gunsmith” who swore by the sleeping bullet thing, his groups at 100 tightened up a lot when I asked him to humor me and dial his centerpoint special back to 4x.

I think this is true, but have we really come to a point where 30-06 is considered flinch inducing?

 

[jakelly]

No, as stated originally, we're specifically mocking Fudds who talk about sleeping bullets waking up and steering themselves back on course. Because that's what Fudds are talking about when they refer to sleeping bullets.

You’re not even using the terms correctly...

 

[Odysseus1911]

You’re not even using the terms correctly...

Dude. Reading comprehension.

The FUDDS are not using the terms correctly. We are ridiculing the nonsensical and ignorant stuff FUDDS say.

 

[jhoyda]

We're done here? Chief? Let it go? Man, somebody's puffed up this morning.

Since you're so much smarter than all us idiots, let me ask you point blank: do you believe a gun (independant of human variables) can be capable of better precision (groups of smaller angular measure) at 300 yards than it can at 100 yards?

Of course not.

Now, please show where I argued that.

Please reread post #82. That is the only point I’ve made. It seems quite cut and dry.

 

[jphil108]

I think this is true, but have we really come to a point where 30-06 is considered flinch inducing?

Sadly, it’s getting that way, yes. .30-06 remains one of my favorites to shoot but the Creedmoor crowd is always looking for higher BC and lower recoil.

 

[Odysseus1911]

Of course not.

Now, please show where I argued that.

Please reread post #82. That is the only point I’ve made. It seems quite cut and dry.

Your point IS cut and dry. But it wasn't really germane to the OP's post and the ensuing discussion of Fudd lore because when Fudds mention bullets "going to sleep", they are specifically talking about a mythical, scientifically-impossible explanation for their baffling (to them) results on paper (namely, their theory that bullets steer back to point of aim after some distance, thereby tightening groups). And that MYTH was the subject of this discussion, NOT the real phenomenon described by Litz.

 

[Austan]

Didn't we settle the sleeping bullet theory and tighter groups at distance like a decade ago?

I thought it was due to shifted parallax caused by poor fundamentals in not being centered behind the scope, or at least some combination of that and shooters seeing the results of their shots and trying to "correct" the next shot.

Anyway, it doesn't seem to happen to those who practice regularly.

 

[PilotCFII]

You don’t. You ask him to rationalize how that’s possible out loud.
Have him tell you what mystery force breaks the first law of motion.

Great suggestion. I would love hear his explanation. I'm not even sure what he means by "going to sleep". I've never heard a bullet snore.