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Bullet Powder Combo not found

DocRDS

Head Maffs Monkey
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 21, 2012
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The Great Beyond
So Maybe I am an idiot, but I picked up some bullets on sale. I was looking for a reload combo for them but the Hornady manual (they are Hornady bullets) doesn't have any of my specific powders in their manual--do I just use only their powder? My other manuals don't have that specific bullet. I'm a little leary of using a similar recipe. For example: I have 168gr BTHP Hornady--Can I use a recipe that calls for 168 gr SMK BTHP? or do I just need to suck it up and buy the correct powder (Hornady doesn't list IMR4064 which I am using for 308--and I don't have a ton of different powders around and the others (Lyman, Hogdon use Sierra).
 
The older manuals would combine same weight bullets with load data for flat-base and a second set for boat tail. They all recommended beginning with the suggested starting load because of the differences in bearing length, jacket materials and hardness producing different pressures. I was just looking in an old Speer manual from the eighties that is setup that way. Speer volume eleven shows their 168 grain BTHP match bullet with IMR4064 starting at 43.0 grains and max load at 47.0. Hodgdon online reloading data shows the Sierra 168 HPBT and IMR 4064 with a starting load of 41.5 and a compressed max load of 45.9. With this much disparity in load data always start at the lowest listed starting load. Be safe/live longer!
 
Bullet #3050 168 National Match
IMR 4064 Start load is 38.1 Max 42.2
Hornady Handbook 4th Edition 1994
 

Some help
 
Ok so what I am getting is find a recipe closest to the bullet/powder/brass combo and work up from starting loads. Its ok if you don't have a perfect match but ALWAYS (for future searches) start at the "Minimum" loads and work up or take a published load and subtract 10% powder charge and work up.

Yes I was being that anal that a Hornady 168 gr BTHP was different than a SMK 168 BTHP. I researched different primers and brass but that was pushing it for my comfort level. I also noticed that different manuals have different OAL as well. My OCD is "not well"
 
168 GR. SIE HPBT
Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:12"
Primer: Federal 210M, Large Rifle Match
Barrel Length: 24"
Trim Length: 2.005"


IMR
IMR 4064
.308"
2.800"

41.5
2,518
43,800 PSI

45.9C
2,766
58,800 PSI


from Hodgon website
 
Yes. Start low and work up. Different companies bullets have different bearing surfaces and compositions. These leads to different pressure curves. Different cases can have different internal volumes, this also can change drastically changes pressure.

The Hornady manual references Frontier/Hornady brass and a Winchester Large Rifle Primer. A lighter case is larger inside and may use more powder for the same pressure and velocity. A heavier case has less volume and uses less powder.

Primers can make some differences in loads but usually more in accuracy than pressure. Unless you use non magnum primers in some loads, they have a thinner cup.
 
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What @gunsnjeeps and other said. Main question is are you running a bolt or auto. Military or commercial brass etc... There are variables here to consider. You can load a bolt hotter than an auto and I would hesitate to recommend running at the top of the load range for an auto.

The 10% of max is a standard rule of thumb, but if you're dealing with a fast burning powder, you'd probably be better served starting between minimum to 1/2 max charge weight. I usually try to find same weight bullet, same shape and same powder for stuff not listed if it's a commercial round. If it's a handloader special, and not the latest greatest, the Pet Loads book or P.O. Ackley books can be of assistance. If that doesn't work find similar powder nearest to the burn rate of yours and shoot for the middle ground. There are a couple of applications like Dan Newberry's OCW and Quickload which can help make intelligent decisions as well.

One thing to note, if it's not a new powder, bullet, cartridge, and your google foo doesn't yield much there's probably a reason people aren't using that combo. Doesn't mean it won't work, just means the accuracy potential left something to be desired or it was a finicky load.

In this case, 4064 and a 168 HPBT is an old school load. Start with 42gr 4064, Fed GMM / Std 210, CCI or Win primers and go from there if necessary. This is an old military load that has worked for years. Typically you'll find a node between there and 43.5. 2.800" is a standard load length and most of the book lengths are based on magazine length. If you want other options, H4895, I4895 and Varget. Accurateshooter is a good source of info.

One other thing, you'll notice a lot of the books today say version 10 vs version 7 they dial back the loads a couple of grains. Hence the reason I usually start in the low middle and work up from there.
 
For example: I have 168gr BTHP Hornady--Can I use a recipe that calls for 168 gr SMK BTHP?

Yes. Absolutely. I do those substitutions all the time. Use care and due diligence while working up a load.
 
You can load a bolt hotter than an auto and I would hesitate to recommend running at the top of the load range for an auto.

I wouldn't. NRA/CMP competitors have been doing so for decades with 223 reloads. My go to load for highpower was 24.7 grains of Reloder 15 in a Lake City case with a Hornady 75 HPBT on top
 
I have had luck calling Hornady or emailing them if I am in doubt. They usually will let you know if the combo just doesn’t seem to work like stated a couple posts above or they will give you a starting point.
 
+1 on what 918v stated. Type of brass makes a BIG difference, especially when going between military and commercial. As always, work up the load, not down. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
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My experience with the SRA 308 168SMK and HDY 308 168 HPBT Match is that I can swap them out by batch (don't mix them within a loading batch) when reloading.

As with any reloading recipe, any component alteration will produce a performance alteration; but in this instance, I have not seen very significant alterations. A slight POI shift and/or a minor group size variation appears to be the extent of the difference between the two projectiles, for me with the 308 and 30-06.

If your load runs near the bleeding edge of excessive pressure, back down and work up powder charges when changing bullets. If you don't have a good grasp about reading pressure indicators; don't make the swap until you do.

I use IMR-4064 for my 308 and 30-06 168gr match loads. For the 308, 43.5gr; for the 30-06 48.1gr. These are my best approximations for duplicating the FGMM loads. As with any reloading data, what works for me can only be counted upon as being safe and effective for me; it may not be either in others' situations. Military brass tends to have smaller internal capacities, and generally requires (in these two chamberings) about a 1gr to 1 1/2gr charge reduction for safety and effectiveness. My loads are from Service Rifle data and are under Hodgdon Max.

I prefer Starline Brass for these cartridges, with CCI BR-2 primers for Match applications, and Winchester WLR primers for other (hunting, etc.) applications. The WLR provides a more definitive ignition, especially in the cold; the BR-2 is more the precise. For hunting, I substitute the SRA 165SGK (Sierra GameKing), which results in about a 2" POI shift at 200yd.

My current plans are to replace the .30 caliber HPBT Match bullets with Speer .308" 168g Gold Dots projectiles. Reportedly both accurate and terminally effective; they give up some BC. My local altitude is probably high enough (4350ft ASL) to negate that loss significantly.

Greg
 
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