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Rifle Scopes Buying my first higher end scope.

J

Jakediesel06

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Minuteman
Feb 17, 2018
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I’m looking at buying my first higher end scope or scope that is in my price range. Mainly going for varmit hunting and target shooting. Shooting a 6.5 creedmoor I have it narrowed to these 4 I think. Lol.

Nightforce shv 5x20x56 MOA MOAR Reticle SFP
Vortex viper gen 2 pst 5x25x50 MRAD Reticle FFP
Burris xtr 2 5x25x50 SCR MIL Recticle FFP
Leupold VX-3i 6.5x20x50 LPR Side focus MOA FFP

I know this is a lot of opinion but is there any reason I should pick one over the others. Is there possibly another scope I’m missing that I should be considering
 
The new Vortex AMG can be had right now for $2000. The ones you listed should work fine. Athlon Cronus BTR is talked about a lot on here and is in the $1500 range. Good luck.
 
While it's not the latest and coolest new toy, I'd suggest a good look at the Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 It looks like you prefer MOA scopes, and you can usually pick up a well priced one of those in MOA as they go for a bit cheaper than the CM version.
 
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After visiting with a couple of the guys at the Nightforce booth at NRA 2018 I can say that their products are top notch. They are very knowledgeable and all the scopes I looked through were great. The scopes just ooze quality and durability. (Caveat: I am fairly novice to high-end scopes)
 
Fwiw, when I made the leap, it was to a gen 1 Vortex Viper PST 6-24 mrad ffp. It stung at the time, but, I still use the scope to this day, and have bought 2 other vipers since. I'm wearing out my tear ducts now for this summer's Razor.......
 
Of the four you posted:

-Leupold: I, personally, would pass on this one. In my opinion, Leupold offers you the least bang for your buck, and their reticle options are generally lackluster at best. They were once a great company, but they've ridden on the coattails of their reputation fo too long and are now well behind what the market demands, and what the competition provides.

-Nightforce: Excellent optics in general. I'm not a big fan of the Mil-R reticle (or it's MOAR alternative), but they do work well, overall. Turrets are a bit simple, but again, they work well.

-Vortex PST Gen2: These don't have quite as much length to their track record, but for what you pay, you get a lot in return. Better turrets, better reticles, illumination, decent glass, etc. They seem to be doing quite well with reliability and tracking, overall.

-Burris XTRII: These have an excellent record of being reliable with solid tracking. The SCR reticle is quite good if you prefer non-tree style reticles, the turrets are very tactile, and the zero stop is very positive. Glass seems to be somewha hit or miss for some, but that's subjective and they'll all get the job done.

Of the three, I'd probably side with the Burris based on features and price, with the Vortex being either tied for a VERY close second.
 
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Is there a reticle that you would like better with the Nightforce or even with different reticle still take the burris or vortex?
 
Jakediesel06 said:
Is there a reticle that you would like better with the Nightforce or even with different reticle still take the burris or vortex?
Click to expand...

I'd still take the Burris or Vortex. I'm sure the SHV is a great optic, but the other factor I forgot to mention is that it's not a front focal plane optic, and is only available in MOA, per NF's website. Neither of those are desirable to me. If NF made an SHV F1 5-20x56 with a Mil-C option, I'd consider it. But the Burris/Vortex will do just as good a job while offering me more for my money. For a NF, I'd bump up to an ATACR F1. The older NXS F1 models were also decent with the MLR2.0 reticle, but they command more of a premium than they're worth, to me.
 
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For someone like me that has never really used higher end scopes. What would you say is the biggest difference between a say a mid range like I’m looking at to high end.
 
I'd add the DMR2 3.5-21 to the above list, and probably remove the Leupold. The new Leupold VX5HDs are getting solid reviews but are a bit out of your price range AFAICT. I'd also drop the SFP Nightforce - just no reason IMO for SFP higher mag optics short of benchrest/always shooting at the same distance and targets.

A used Razor can be had occasionally around $1800 if looking to bump up a bit more, and it may be possible to find a used Vortex AMG for less/in your range.

No experience with the Vortex Get 2 PST. A fair number or issues reported with the prior gen PSTs, while for some - no issues.
The DMR2 is 'sort of new' but the first gen was nearly bulletproof. The DMR2 is as far as I can tell, the same tube and internals but with the shorter turrets and better glass coatings, plus illumination option. Should be nearly bulletproof as well (I have one currently, no issues).

The Burris should also be reliable and solid, although many say the glass isn't all that good. That's a relative statement, of course - it's likely fine coming from whatever you're using now.

I wouldn't touch the lower priced Athlons, IMO, although you might consider the Cronus BTR, as it's a LOW produced optic and should be solid, with numerous good reviews.

Out of the DMR2, PST, Burris and Cronus BTR, they should all be pretty solid (and/or have solid replacement warrantees). Glass will be a bit better or worse across them but usable to good in all cases out of them, assuming no scope issues exist. Check the reticles and consider which works best for you.
 
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My suggestion is to visit your local longer range a couple weekends. See if there is any one with higher end scope and ask to look through their scope. There is no substitute for actually looking through the scope yourself. Also, look for our optic exchange board. You may find a nice used one and buy once then smile a lot.
 
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Jakediesel06 said:
For someone like me that has never really used higher end scopes. What would you say is the biggest difference between a say a mid range like I’m looking at to high end.
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The $2000 plus rifle scopes such as vortex amg Khales k624i. Will be full of features such as ffp, excellent clear glass. Very precise turrets, tracking should be spot on, zero stop and confidence in your equipment. With all that said a $1000 scope will give you most of the things mentioned. So it is really up to you how much you want to spend. Is your varmimt hunting prairie dogs or coyote type hunting? Pm me if you need the online store that is selling the vortex amg for $1980.
 
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Of the ones listed, I'd opt for the Burris or the Vortex, with an edge to the Vortex. My reasoning for this recommendation is the reference you made to this being used for varminting. The Burris is a solid scope, but the glass has been pedestrian in my experience (two 5-52x XTR-II's). While the Vortex Gen II PST has much better glass IME. This is important when varminting, since you will likely be spending a lot of time behind the glass. Neither will hold you back form hittin gyour target, but the better glass will make identifying your target a bit easier; especially when your quarry may belnd well into the terrain.

If this were strictly a PRS gun (which would likely get the crap beat out if it), then the decision would be much harder (and probably lean towards the Burris' excellent history of robust durability), but since this is mainly for varminting, I'd lean towards the Vortex.

As stated above, the lower end Leupolds are not worth the money. The new Mk 5's are much better, but above your price point.

Scopes on a budget, all come down to the right tool for the job. The higher (Tier 2 and Tier 1) scopes just allow more versatility of application (durability, tracking, reticle options, and glass clarity).
 
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Jakediesel06 said:
For someone like me that has never really used higher end scopes. What would you say is the biggest difference between a say a mid range like I’m looking at to high end.
Click to expand...

There's a slightly higher refinement in the build quality and the glass is usually superior, plus a few more features like 2nd revolution indicators, daylight bright illume, etc. Basically you pay a lot more for this and that's fine if it's what someone is after. Regardless of price there are some decent cheap scopes that hold up well, track well, and have good enough glass, to hit whatever at long range. I've gone from one rifle to the next, side by side with a $300 Athlon Talos BTR on top vs a $3850 S&B hitting the same steel. Of course the S&B is very nice in most ways, however one of my S&B's started having a problem, I sent it back for repair, received it back 3 days ago with that problem fixed, but with a worse problem now than when I sent it in!!?? I'm not pleased at all!

For a $500 + scope I wouldn't settle for SFP, nor anything less than 10 mil turrets/ 25 moa, nor over 25Y minimum focus in case you want to put the scope on a 22rf at some point, or a reticle with line numbers directly off the vertical stadia.
 
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Targets will be clearer because of the improved glass. Better reticle choices. Your turrets will be more crisp and you won't be wondering whether you're on one mark or the next. The scopes are generally somewhat more reliable and break down less. Scopes aren't as sensitive to eye placement and are generally just easier to look through for long periods of time.
 
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Take a look at the Ares ETR. You'll see them shipping out in July. MAP price is $1,199. ED Glass and a really nice MIL reticle design with a floating .2 MIL dot.
 
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Jakediesel06 said:
I’m looking at buying my first higher end scope or scope that is in my price range. Mainly going for varmit hunting and target shooting. Shooting a 6.5 creedmoor I have it narrowed to these 4 I think. Lol.

Nightforce shv 5x20x56 MOA MOAR Reticle SFP
Vortex viper gen 2 pst 5x25x50 MRAD Reticle FFP
Burris xtr 2 5x25x50 SCR MIL Recticle FFP
Leupold VX-3i 6.5x20x50 LPR Side focus MOA FFP

I know this is a lot of opinion but is there any reason I should pick one over the others. Is there possibly another scope I’m missing that I should be considering
Click to expand...

With those choices, I'd pick the reticle you like best and go from there. You need to decide whether you want mil or moa and first or second focal plane.

Also, these would be considered mid tier at best.
 
Jakediesel06 said:
I’m looking at buying my first higher end scope or scope that is in my price range. Mainly going for varmit hunting and target shooting. Shooting a 6.5 creedmoor I have it narrowed to these 4 I think. Lol.

Nightforce shv 5x20x56 MOA MOAR Reticle SFP
Vortex viper gen 2 pst 5x25x50 MRAD Reticle FFP
Burris xtr 2 5x25x50 SCR MIL Recticle FFP
Leupold VX-3i 6.5x20x50 LPR Side focus MOA FFP

I know this is a lot of opinion but is there any reason I should pick one over the others. Is there possibly another scope I’m missing that I should be considering
Click to expand...


We'd be happy to assist you in picking the right scope for your application, we'll ask some questions to help narrow down your search. Please give us a call at 916-670-1103 and we will go over the Pros and Cons of not just the scopes, but FFP vs. SFP and MIL vs. MOA.
 
Out of those choices I'd go with the Vortex viper gen 2 pst 5x25x50 MRAD Reticle FFP. I believe there's one in the EE for $925 currently.

Personally I'd try to find a used Athlon Cronus or wait for the new Athlon Ares ETR.
 
The BURRIS strip 5-25X50 with the SCR reticule FFP if you want to stay closer to $1000 or the Nightforce SHV shv 5x20x56 MOA MOAR Reticle SFP if you can spend $1500.
 
I realize I put down MOA scopes but the more I think about I’m thinking MIL might be easier to use. Multiples of 10 compared to using fractions or decimals. Only thing I’m thinking is that I’ve always used standard measurement rather than meteric so that might be something to get use to. Am I over thinking this. Just ends up being personal preference in the end?
 
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Jakediesel06 said:
I realize I put down MOA scopes but the more I think about I’m thinking MIL might be easier to use. Multiples of 10 compared to using fractions or decimals. Only thing I’m thinking is that I’ve always used standard measurement rather than meteric so that might be something to get use to. Am I over thinking this. Just ends up being personal preference in the end?
Click to expand...

Overthinking it to some point.
If you can spot how far off you are with your optic, then it doesn't matter - adjust by X (Mil or MOA) and shoot again.
If shooting with a spotter w/reticled spotting scope, I'm not sure I've seen many (any? Have to be some somewhere, I suppose) MOA based spotting scope reticles.
If going to ever sell, mil/mil tends to sell a lot easier.
Realistically, 1 mil is 3.6" at 100yards, 1/10th of a mil (typical adjustment) is .36" at 100yds.
1 MOA is 1.05"-ish at 100yds, 1/4 MOA adjustment is ~.26" at 100 yards.
At 1K, Mil adjustments will be 3.6" vs 2.6" for MOA adjustments. I don't think any of us here can shoot inside the difference there at 1K.
Use the reticle and neither really matter.
 
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I have a Vortex PST II 5-25 Im willing to give up. Less than 200 fires rounds with it mounted. It’s in MOA. Tracks amazingly well
 
6mmDaniel said:
I have a Vortex PST II 5-25 Im willing to give up. Less than 200 fires rounds with it mounted. It’s in MOA. Tracks amazingly well
Click to expand...
In FFP I have a throw lever front defender flip cap and a set of GEISSELE scope rings (valued at $350)
 
I picked up a Nightforce SHV 4-14 SFP for around $700 by stacking up coupons, cash back, etc. At that price I am extremely happy with it and could not see myself feeling like I had gotten three times the optic by buying one of the ones I looked at in the $2,000 range. But, that's me. Find a local store and look through all of them, check out the reticle options, play with the turrets and zoom rings and go from there. Think about the features you need and care about and the ones you don't. Are you going to hunt with it/do you care about weight? Is illumination vital or just something extra to break? Etc.

As an aside, I would probably put up the VX-5HD 3-15 over the VX-3 you have there. It can be had for around the $800 mark and seemed like a better scope to me. The glass and turrets was really nice for the price and I like their simple way to show you're on the second revolution etc. At the end of the day the Nightforce checked more boxes for me, but nobody can tell you what is going to work best for you. As long as they all track well and the glass is decent it really comes down to your preference.
 
Jakediesel06 said:
For someone like me that has never really used higher end scopes. What would you say is the biggest difference between a say a mid range like I’m looking at to high end.
Click to expand...

in my case, other than the obvious mechanical differences I was shocked when I looked at the bark of a tree in dark timber and realized it was actually two trees - one smaller split trunk growing directly in front of the larger trunk directly behind.

I was amazed because I had been studying this tree with several different "lesser" scopes to judge low light performance among them. these included a SWFA 3-15x42, PST Gen2 2-10x32, and Athlon Ares 2.5-15x50 all set on 10x and none of the others even hinted to me that I could be looking at two tree trunks but with the Bushnell LRTS (LOW glass) it was just immediately apparent.

it was kinda shocking actually and is causing me to reevaluate all my previous scope decisions...
 
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From what I’m reading they’re upgrading the glass in the Athlon Ares etr. No real way to compare the Athlon Ares etr to the Burris and vortex as it isn’t out yet. Correct?
 
Jakediesel06 said:
And the floating center dot just means the cross don’t meet at the center right
Click to expand...
Correct on both statements. The Ares ETR does have the better ED Glass vs the Ares BTR with HD Glass. Essentially, the Ares ETR will have a sharper image, due to the ED glass better eliminating chromatic aberration.
 
Thanks for having the Burris on your short list. We appreciate the support.

I think the only option on the scopes you listed that would be disappointing in the long run is the RFP. You'll get more enjoyment from the target shooting with FFP (not bashing the competition here, just talking RFP. Burris has a bunch of RFP scopes too).

Oddly, some very expensive scopes actually have FEWER features. Many are made to specs set out by military, who care more about reliability and ruggedness than latest features. And sometimes the extra price is influenced more by the small production numbers than anyone would want to admit.

And a personal note: only on the Hide is a $1,000-plus optic "cheap." I know it's just the word they're picking to differentiate scope categories, and they don't mean harm. But how about "less expensive"? For the vast majority of people, this is the absolute upper end of the scope market.
 
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$1k is cheap when you are trying to debate $3k, $5k and $6k scopes.
 
W54/XM-388 said:
$1k is cheap when you are trying to debate $3k, $5k and $6k scopes.
Click to expand...
See, that's my point. $1k is certainly LESS. But it's still a lot of money by any reasonable, objective measurement.
You can't justify buying a Porsche just because a Ferrari is more. This site leans so heavily towards the ridiculously expensive it's in danger of toppling over. And I wonder a bit if that expensive lean is bad for the sport. I know if I was interested in LRP, I'd be a bit set-back by the talk here about $4 and $5k optics.

Again, that's just my personal, certain-to-lose, vendetta. My professional opinion, since I actually get paid to spend time here, is buy the scope that makes the most sense for you. Preferably a Burris. Or a Steiner. :)

(the above thoughts are probably influneced by spending the day writing descriptions of $300-ish 3-9x hunting scopes).
 
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I'd probably strongly consider a Burris or Steiner in the running when putting together an "affordable" package or for a MSR or a hunting rifle.
I saw the Steiner scopes at the Dallas Safari expo, they were quite interesting.
I'm probably going to consider some of them to mount on my MSRs fairly soon.
The XTR II models seem pretty interesting for the MSR setups.

Once the budget goes to the 2k and up range, then I'm partial to S&B
 
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I'm with you, Geoff. I have and enjoy a few higher end optics, and absolutely see their place. But for the VAST majority of the shooting world, spending $1000 on a single optic is a nauseating thought, yet many here talk about $3k-4k as an every day purchase! That's a nice used motorcycle, and awfully close to a nice used car!

Frankly, I'm finding myself increasingly in the second camp. I'm transitioning slowly to a step below my current setups to try and save a little cash. I have my S&B posted to make a jump down to an AMG/Razor of some kind (no offense, but Burris doesn't have anything in the AMG/Razor territory), and get enough on the side to afford glass for another rifle that sits unused as it doesn't have glass. While I'll miss the chance to have an S&B and the prestige it comes with, I don't think I'll miss the top ten at any matches because my rifle doesn't sport a $3000+ optic on it! :ROFLMAO:
 
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Basher said:
I'm transitioning slowly to a step below my current setups to try and save a little cash. I have my S&B posted to make a jump down to an AMG/Razor of some kind
Click to expand...

Are you finding the AMG/Razor significantly cheaper than the going price on the S&B scopes that sell on the used market?
I guess it depends on the exact model but it seems they are pretty proud of some like the Razor HD AMG 6-24x50 & the prices are fairly up there?
 
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W54/XM-388 said:
Are you finding the AMG/Razor significantly cheaper than the going price on the S&B scopes that sell on the used market?
I guess it depends on the exact model but it seems they are pretty proud of some like the Razor HD AMG 6-24x50 & the prices are fairly up there?
Click to expand...

Used AMGs tend to go for $1800-2000, so that's several hundred less than a new S&B. Enough of a difference for me to make the move.
 
My vote is for the Vortex, based on my having this particular scope and several others on my rifles and having bought a used first-gen Strike Eagle that turned out to be "smeared" optically and Vortex sent me a new one the next day.

I agree with the "buy once cry once" philosophy, and also with the thought line questioning whether a $2500 scope is that much better than a $1000 scope. I can't speak to $3000+ scopes because I have no experience with them, but I have had experience with camera telephoto lenses that cost $7000 or more versus similar focal length lenses costing a quarter of that. With current manufacturing techniques, my $1400 Nikon 200-500mm f/5.6 lens is astonishingly sharp. Is is as sharp, fast and durable as the $7k 200-400mm f/4? Not quite. Is it $5600 worth of better? Not for me.

I have the Vortex Viper PST 5-25 Gen-2 on my chassised .223 Tikka. It's clear and tracks well and is perfect (for me) on that platform. I have a Gen-1 Razor 5-20 on my 6.5 Tikka and would upgrade to the Gen-2 4.5-27 if I had another home (or buyer) for the 5-20. Different platforms, different expectations.

If you're just starting out, I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Viper. I can't speak to the others as I have no experience with them. As others have said, though, your preference for one reticle over others is really important; I happen to like Vortex EBR-2B/C reticles better than anything else I've seen in the price range.

Edit: One other thing. Zero stop is a Good Thing. I'm less than a year into the precision discipline (50+ years shooting about everything else) and having a solid, easily-adjustible zero stop is a must-have for me.

Good luck.
 
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Jakediesel06 said:
I’m looking at buying my first higher end scope or scope that is in my price range. Mainly going for varmit hunting and target shooting. Shooting a 6.5 creedmoor I have it narrowed to these 4 I think. Lol.

Nightforce shv 5x20x56 MOA MOAR Reticle SFP
Vortex viper gen 2 pst 5x25x50 MRAD Reticle FFP
Burris xtr 2 5x25x50 SCR MIL Recticle FFP
Leupold VX-3i 6.5x20x50 LPR Side focus MOA FFP

I know this is a lot of opinion but is there any reason I should pick one over the others. Is there possibly another scope I’m missing that I should be considering
Click to expand...


Read a few of answers some good advice from very knowledgeable people. For years I have been looking through Leupold Mark 4. I still think they are a very good scope, but discontinued. I do not believe the Mark 8 is worth the price of admission. I recently went with an Athlon Cronus BTR and it’s amazing. I am not going to say what I paid for it, it would make some people cry. I will just say it’s the best deal I have ever found. I am not a big NF fan, of those you mentioned would be hard for me to say as the Vortex is the only one I have looked through. Do yourself a favor and go check the Cronus out, for a little more money you will see a whole lot of difference.
 
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I think it is very important not to cheap out on any part of your gear getting into long range because if your gear is not consistent it's very difficult to learn and improve if you don't known if you missed because of you or the gear. With that said there is no need to drop $3k on a scope starting out. You would be so much better served buying a $1k optic and using the rest of the money for ammo. I have a pst 4-16, bushnell ers, and Kahles 6-24. I have shot with a hand full of nightforces, S&B, vortex gen 2 razor, and a premier. So $700-$3500+ dollar optics. Can't say I have missed a target due to the scopes fault. The biggest difference to me is the higher end scopes are much easier to look through for long periods of time. I find my gen 1 pst to cause eye fatigue rather quickly but I have still been able to consistently connect with steel out to 1k. The other difference is all the functions on the higher end scopes feel smoother and more refined. Both of these are not night and day differences to me but noticeable. In my opinion, the $1k price range yields the best bang for your buck in scopes, higher than that you are getting less for your money, diminishing returns.

I have considered selling my kahles a few time but honestly I keep it because I wanted 1 top of the line everything in my collection. It's mounted on a beanland 6.5x47 bighorn action in a j allen chassis.
 
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Baron85 said:
I think it is very important not to cheap out on any part of your gear getting into long range because if your gear is not consistent it's very difficult to learn and improve if you don't known if you missed because of you or the gear. With that said there is no need to drop $3k on a scope starting out. You would be so much better served buying a $1k optic and using the rest of the money for ammo. I have a pst 4-16, bushnell ers, and Kahles 6-24. I have shot with a hand full of nightforces, S&B, vortex gen 2 razor, and a premier. So $700-$3500+ dollar optics. Can't say I have missed a target due to the scopes fault. The biggest difference to me is the higher end scopes are much easier to look through for long periods of time. I find my gen 1 pst to cause eye fatigue rather quickly but I have still been able to consistently connect with steel out to 1k. The other difference is all the functions on the higher end scopes feel smoother and more refined. Both of these are not night and day differences to me but noticeable. In my opinion, the $1k price range yields the best bang for your buck in scopes, higher than that you are getting less for your money, diminishing returns.

I have considered selling my kahles a few time but honestly I keep it because I wanted 1 top of the line everything in my collection. It's mounted on a beanland 6.5x47 bighorn action in a j allen chassis.
Click to expand...

This has not been my experience. I can definitely say that practice is the most important part of becoming a truly competitive shooter. Much of that practice can be done without live ammo. Until you learn proper technique with trigger control no scope or rifle is going to help. I can say without a doubt I am better with the Cronus over the Mark 4. The target is clear, in fact I would of never believed 10 years ago that this much improvement was possible.
 
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Nightforce SHV F1 4-14x50 MILR......Love it. Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56.......pissing my pants with anticipation for it to get here but have confirmation that it will be here this week. Agonized over scopes with all the same questions that you have for months and the guys helped me as well. Love my Swarovski but it doesn’t have the full function of Nightforce or others the guys have mentioned. MOA vs MIL.....no brainer MIL. It’s just easier for me. The whole reason I joined Snipers Hide......to give Wiley P. Coyote some copper jacketed lovin right between the horns at distance?
 
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I am running an Ares BTR and am thrilled with it. Athlon is definitely worth a look. It will be interesting to see it next to the ETR.
 
For a good hunting/target scope, look at the Bushnell LRHSi 4.5-18 that GA Precision has. It is a special buy and a lot of scope for the money. I have shot matches and hunted with the non-illuminated version.
 
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