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Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thatfreaknguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what about .270. I just bought a J.C. Higgins model 50 chambered in it, and would like an opinion on wether to stick with that or use the FN Mauser action with something else any input would be awesome. As im sure you all have figered im new to this. and would like to take the rifle and make it more or less my own in some way. Thank you and if there is another thread that would be better help please point me in the right direction.

Thank you

OORAAAH </div></div>

What you have there is an excellent rifle capable of up to 1k with the right bullets. I mean Berger 130/140/150 hunting match and 130/135 Sierra SMK's. Hornady's bonded bullet is excellent but spendy. Either the 140 or 150 SST has enough BC to get to 1k.

Practice shooting that and see how the rifle shoots then decide whether you need to pull it apart and build that up with a new barrel in a new chamber or not.

FWIW, I wasn't the biggest fan of the .270 cal. Mostly because a .270 I shot a few times as a kid whacked me pretty good. Then when I got into ballistics, there were just a whole lot of made to order bullets that did well at longer ranges. Now looking into it deeper I see that the .277 cal has a ton of potential for weight and BC combined along with great cases to push these bullets hard.

So give it a try, and see what you come up with. If not satisfied see a good <span style="text-decoration: underline">Mauser</span> gunsmith and plan the build from there. My recommendation for a good Mauser gunsmith is Jim Kobe who posts here. He lives about 10 miles from me. His turnaround time on his work is usually 3-4 days ahead. And it's quality work. I've always been happy with what he's done for me.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

What "caliber"???
A thread about barrel diameter or bullet measurement?

How about getting the nomenclature right?
What you're intending to discuss is cartridges or even more aptly "chamberings"...


Isn't "caliber" a term that was incorrectly held-over from blackpowder days when there were no such things as chambers, and the only way to denote correct application of a firearm barrel or cylinder was the bore measurement or "caliber"? A .45-70 denoted a .45 caliber bullet loaded with 70gr of blackpowder. There were also .45-90, and .45-120 rifles. A .36 or .44 Colt referred to barrel and cylinder bore.


Great to discuss cartridge selection, purpose, reasoning, and variables; but don't chamber, throat, and barrel twist factors have more pertinency to what defines the performance of a round?

I realized this isn't "BenchrestHide" or "BenchRestCountry" but what the hell purpose do people who spend $4,000 for a scope and mounting system for one rifle, and know they want a mil/mil solution for solving all the variables of distance shooting, have in using a 300yr old and improper nomenclature to identify the cartridge they fire in their weapon?
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Probably get banned for not being sensitive on matters of vocabulary...

Yet, one of my favorite books, one can always read and learn something from is Fred Barnes' Cartridges Of The World.

Note, he didn't title it Calibers of The World...


Unless the intent here is to open up all the reasons people choose to wildcat, and all the reasons many keep using obsolete or lesser-performing cartridges, there really are none to compare to those based on the .308win, .30-06, or .300win cases.

There are specialty cases like the .284win and its variant the 6.5x284 Norma, and the various mauser rounds.

Too damn bad no one has seen to produce the .338win with rebated base and minus the magnum rim, or standardize the base size of the 7.5x55 Swiss to .473".

Why was the .325wsm created rather than a .338 or .358 WSM?
So much is just marketing and the gun manufacturers dreaming up ways to sell stuff for needs they manufacture.

The .358 and .357 bores are practically identical. If I could get a Ruger Super Redhwak in .357 Maximum, I might go to a .358 bore for magnum rifle. Why? Because I cast bullets and being able to interchange bullets is a great value and appeal. A .35 Whelen (.30-06 case) and a .357mag with 7" or longer barrel makes a superb hunting combo. If the .358 bore were developed with Longrange bullets, then even more reason to go that route, but not many exist...

Why not a .34 magnum revolver based on the .357 Maximum? Many reasons but can't fight the tide or reinvent the wheel.

Best .338 round I've found is the .338/300, a necked up .300win; for many reasons. Great brass, cheap too. Most efficient case for powder flexibilities. At max load levels produces .340wby power and velocity. Burns less powder, close enough to the Lapua and Ultra Mag. Doesn't require the long magnum or super magnum receiver and boltface. Easy to chamber, just improve the .338win by .15", maybe do an AI shoulder if you want one... The .300win case gives more flexibility for bullet seating than anything other than the .338win or .338 Norma (which I believe is a bit shorter, but wider and a .585" base).

What really works? German Salazar over on 6mmBR.com writes about his 1000yd .30-06 with match chamber. Hard to improve on the .308win in a semi-auto with right bullet selection. The .223Rem comes into its own strongly with 75/77gr bullets in semi-auto rifles and 80/90gr bullets if you use a bolt or single-load; all depends on barrel twist.

There is a lot to be said for standardization. Cheaper and better grade components. Mil-Spec brass for hardness. (Why buy that Federal crap?) Bullet availability is also a huge consideration, if you're gonna handload (and why are you reading here if you won't?).

Not gonna handload? Best buy your ammo by the case(s) then to have some and be sure all from same lot #. Not handloading is a big handicap from my perspective... Want precision, but don' want to handload? Best stick with the ctgs that you can obtain match rounds for, and find fairly routine; or have a great reason for doing otherwise.

Aside from just being "gun-crazy" or collecting, a .223, .308, and .300win can fulfill about all the niches most might need; but only if you handload or are so rich you don't care about spending the bucks for mediocre factory ammo. Maybe a .375 H&H should be in your cabinet also? Depends on where you live, or hunt/travel.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What "caliber"???
A thread about barrel diameter or bullet measurement?

How about getting the nomenclature right?
What you're intending to discuss is cartridges or even more aptly "chamberings"...
</div></div>

You've hit upon an interesting issue with the firearms industry. There is no singular standard for denoting caliber, capacity, and chamber dimensions.

You made an interesting point here with regards to why we have such a mess with the names of cases.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but can't fight the tide or reinvent the wheel.</div></div>

Try this, from the Dept. of Justice's online description and historical information regarding firearms nomenclature.

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cibmanuals/files/time/html/caliber.htm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">" ... the caliber description for a specific firearm contains not only the caliber, <span style="font-weight: bold">but also a partial or complete description of the appropriate cartridge for its chamber.</span></div></div>

Hopefully that clears up some of your confusion as to why:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but what the hell purpose do people who spend $4,000 for a scope and mounting system for one rifle ... have in using a 300yr old and improper nomenclature to identify the cartridge they fire in their weapon?</div></div>

In some ways you appear to have answered your own ranted musings.

It may also have to do with the 175yr old issue that arose from muzzle loaders to breech loaders that now how a chamber (and thus a "chambering") to designate, as opposed to ONLY a caliber. Previous to this dilemna, the shooter/loader was left with the decision as to how much powder to pour into the bore before ramming a patched projectile down after it.

Now, since you like the 338/300 WM so much, can you put up some numbers to support the velocities achieved with various bullets, powders, and barrels while also referencing that against the internal efficiency of the chambering? That would be a strong step towards substantiation of your opinion.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-weight: bold">Short Action Calibers, 308 bolt face</span>
6.5-284
</div></div>

Hmm. 6.5x284 needs 30-06 action to work properly.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-weight: bold">Short Action Calibers, 308 bolt face</span>
6.5-284
</div></div>

Hmm. 6.5x284 needs 30-06 action to work properly. </div></div>


You're right, however the reason it's listed there is because of how it's classified by the official release of actions chambered in the factory offerings. The official production of this round is that it's classified as a short action.

Here is what I said about it's parent case, the 284 Winchester about 2 lines further down the post you quoted:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">284 Winchester (more aptly built in a long action, but officially a short action round)</div></div>

This is the same reason that the Mauser rounds were listed as short actions as well. The Rem 600 SA was built with a 7x57 offering, even though it fits very poorly in that action.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Excellent post. I'd like to add a bit on a round I shoot and reload for but seems much less common place nowadays. The 8mm Mauser. (.323 or 8x57 to specify)


Pros
*Surplus rifles can be had for the price of a tank of gas.
*Suitable round for hunting most game up to Elk.
*Handloads comparable or slightly better ballistics to 30-06.
*Surplus ammo can be had for cheap(be wary of corrosive ammo though)


Cons
*Most rifles in this caliber are 70 years old and require a gunsmith to check them for integrity.
*Factory ammo is loaded to lower pressure standards for safety due to there being 2 8mm's which limits performance to the 30-30 neighborhood.
*Requires hand loading to take advantage of the rounds abilities.
*Limited loading component options.



As for my experiences. I load for this rifle because it was a gift from my father and we have put a lot of time into it. With hand loads it is rather impressive for its age and has proved reasonably accurate to 800 yards. My 200gr speers go subsonic after that. A new barrel would improve its accuracy most likely as the factory barrel(1939) is 29.5 inches long and thin profile.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

In the 308 face short action I get excellent long range performance with the 243 AI and 107 MK. Standard magnum bolt face the 264 STW does very well at long range. 378 wby/Lapua bolt face the 338 Kahn does well at long range which is a 338-378 imp. These were not listed.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Long Time Long Ran</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 308 face short action I get excellent long range performance with the 243 AI and 107 MK. Standard magnum bolt face the 264 STW does very well at long range. 378 wby/Lapua bolt face the 338 Kahn does well at long range which is a 338-378 imp. These were not listed. </div></div>

I've never heard about the 264 STW, can you expand on the capabilities of the case? What the parent case is, what kind of barrel life, etc? I'm always interested in hearing about heavy 6.5's
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the same reason that the Mauser rounds were listed as short actions as well. The Rem 600 SA was built with a 7x57 offering, even though it fits very poorly in that action. </div></div>

Could someone provide some evidence of a Remington 600/660 being offered in a 7x57mm? That rounds has a listed overall length of approximately 3.065" and the 600/660 series actions are shorter than the short action 700s. A 6mm Remington will barely fit in that action.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I don't remember who said it, but someone said specifically that they had a 600 factory chambered in 7 Mauser and that's why this was posted the way it was.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Might include the 220 swift. Cons would be sierras 80 grain bullets fragmenting when shot at high velocities.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Here is my take on the <span style="font-weight: bold">50BMG</span>

Pros
- its a .50
- Wow factor
- Very high BC bullets available
- Cheap surplus components available
- Good selection of "match grade" components available
- Ability to shoot API and incendiary (so much fun) - make sure you take the appropriate precautions....
- Less recoil than you would think for such a big cartridge
- Costs less to shoot than some of the other BIG cartridges (.408 CT, 416 Barrett....)
- You can buy factory ammo for plinking or match use.
- Easy to spot misses due to large bullets
- Did I mention that shooting a 50 is FUN.
- After you clear everyone else off the line with the muzzle blast, you will have the range to your self.



Cons
- Expensive to get into and feed
- Can be hard on lesser scopes
- Muzzle blast in awful
- not allowed on some ranges
- Heavy
- The rifles are big, it may not even fit in you car depending on what you drive
- Not the easiest rifle to carry.
- Might not fit in you safe.
- Chances are that your current reloading set up is not big enough to work. you get to buy all new stuff
- Add all new cleaning gear to that too.
- Even though it costs less to feed than some, its still expensive
- you have to spend a lot more to get a repeater
- Draws a crowd. This can be fun, but it gets old when you just want to shoot
- Hard on targets, you have to use some judgment before you shoot other peoples steel.

There are some serious drawbacks to the .50, but the fun factor makes the trouble worth it to me!!
 
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Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

- After you clear everyone else off the line with the muzzle blast, you will have the range to your self.


This is the best PRO out there. I've had enough of the rapid fire ar pricks.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

+1 on the inconsiderate rapid fire bastards who can't read the range rules. I do like stealing their brass though.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

The mag boxes on a rem 700 amd 600 or model 7 are the same it is only the rear reciever bridge area that was shortened you cant extend the mag box in a model 7 but you can on the 700. so if a 7X57 fits in the mag box of a 700 it will fit a model 7/600.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

--------------------------------------------
Caliber Selection Considerations:

<span style="font-weight: bold">308 Winchester</span>
Pros:
• Common caliber with military and law enforcement
• Factory Match ammo is easily accessible
• Lots of hunting, factory, and bulk ammo choices
• Mild recoil
• Plenty of knockdown powder for short to medium range hunting on all but the largest/most dangerous animals in North America.
• Good caliber for the non-reloader as well as the reloader due to ammo and component availability
• Excellent barrel life (5000+ rounds easily attainable, many references to 8000+ rounds are seen)
• Fits in a SA magazine well with bullets near the lands for ammo tuning
• Easily attainable actions in standard (473) case head for both short and long actions
• Lapua brass is available

Cons:
• Not particularly flat shooting
• Supersonic range is limited to about 1200yd (depending on bullet, altitude and temp)
• In the realm of 30 cal rounds, it’s neutered in MV and falls short in BC so it suffers in both trajectory and wind performance
• Higher BC bullets are available in both 6.5mm and 7mm offerings at equal or higher speeds than the 30 cal bullets have, they make better use of the case capacity while still getting good barrel life.

<span style="font-weight: bold">223 Remington</span>
Pro:
• Commonality to military and LE
• Small powder capacity, inexpensive bullets, common to find components and supplies
• Effectively no recoil
• Good long range bullets available
• Easy to reload
• Forgiving in powder choice
• Far more capable than most people give credit, 1000+yd target shooting is reasonable
• Great varmint caliber, good medium sized game caliber with the right bullet
• Great barrel life
• Loaded properly the trajectory can closely match 308 Winchester for cheap training
• Lapua brass is abailable

Cons:
• Lacks case capacity to really throw the heaviest 224 cal bullets fast
• Lacks hunting applicability for anything bigger than medium White tails at shorter ranges
• Many states outlaw 22cal centerfire for big game hunting
• Trajectory and wind characteristics are on par with 308 Win
--------------------------------------------

Fortunately I didn't ask before finding this thread - thanks for the information - very helpful.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Cartridge: 6.5x47 Lapua
Pro's:
Inherently very accurate.
Easy to load for.
Several 6.5 bullets to choose from.
Excellent brass.
Lite recoil.
Over 3000 round barrel life.
Super sonic past 1200 yards.
Better ballistics than the 308 Win for most "tactical" matches/ applications.
Feeds from short action mags with ease.
A lot of room left over in COAL to chase the lands as needed.
Runs well even in shorter barrels.( doesn't need 28"+ barrels to get the performance to get to 1200 yards).
123-142 grain bullets have a better signature on steel/ dirt over most 6mm bullets.

Cons:
Brass is expensive.
Factory ammo is hard to find and expensive.
Need to bush the firing pin.
No factory rifles readily available.

Performance:
123's at 3050 with 24" barrel.
130's at 2950 with 24" barrel.
142's at 2835 with 24" barrel.
a capable hunting chambering for every thing from varmints to Elk.
Bullets avalible in weight from 85 grain Sierra's to 160 grain Hornady's.
Seems to be the best when using the 123-130 grain bullets for tatical/ match.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Cartridge: 6XC
Pro's:
Good brass (Norma) The lot of 800 I have is very good.
Perfect length for running through SA's and AI mags
Efficient powder volume, 40grs 4350 for 2950-3000fps with a 115gr VLD.
Large rifle primers, will work in extreme cold temps.
Accurate
Low muzzle blast
Light recoil

Con's:
Factory ammo....nada
Factory rifles...nada
Barrel life, less than a .260 or 6.5X47.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khallmark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">vkc,
I just started load development for a 6.5x55 built on an FN SPR action w/ 24" Krieger #4 8.5 twist barrel. I have chronographed the following loads:

140 SST, H4350 - 2800 fps
129 SST, RL17 - 3000 fps
130 Barnes TSX, H4350 - 2875 fps

All shoot well under MOA. This is my 2nd 6.5x55. The FN is a short action, but I am using the WSM magazine box which allows an OAL of 3.1". Both have been shooters and very easy to load for. I use Lapua brass which doesn't require much prep. I size it and chamfer the necks. I had to trim the cases after the 3rd firing. I have not had any trouble with the non-standard rim size in this rifle or a M70 push-feed action. The only con might be the cost of brass, but to me the quality is worth it. The lack of modern load data might concern some people, but like anything else you start low and work up. </div></div>

Old thread I know. The 6.5x55 cartridge rim is .480 . The American brass
makers have shortcut and made .473 brass. Most of the bolt faces have
enough tolerance or slop to accommodate the larger correct brass , all do not.
The Savage short action has been used as a base but is a little short at 3.030
limiting magazine fed rounds to the lighter bullets.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

great write up, maybe this will keep some of the same old questions from being posted... maybe
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rtgfi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ill do 300 winchester magnum and 338 lapua magnum

<span style="font-weight: bold">300 Winchester Mag</span>

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Pros</span></span>
-Flat shooting and fast
-Remains super sonic out to a very good distance
-Plenty of power to take down any game at long range
-Good barrel life for a bullet of its ballistics
-Plenty of ammo choices commonly available
-Ability to reload for it semi-easily
-Smack down power

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Cons</span></span>
-Ammo cost
-Kicks like a sledge hammer
<span style="color: #FF0000">-Overkill for most game at most ranges</span> <span style="color: #3366FF">[color:#33CC00]I believe the .300 WM is the most versatile cartridge on this continent. Can be loaded for chipmunks to brown bear. As an example, one of my most used bullets is the 110 gr. Speer spire point, for the smaller targets of opportunity. 1700-3600fps.</span>[/color]
-Overkill for short range targets where a smaller bullet could be cheaper


<span style="font-weight: bold">338 Lapua Magnum</span>

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Pros</span></span>
-Flat shooting and fast
-Stays super sonic out to a good distance
-Excellent knock down power
-Impressive ballistics

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Cons</span></span>
-Overkill for anything less than 1000yrds IMO
-Ammo costs/availability
-Overkill for any hunting
-Barrel life
</div></div>
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I'm looking into a .300 R.U.M., googled it every way i could. Seems to have enough force downrange 1k yrd+, and good flat trajectory, from what i have read. I just plane want to shoot as close to 1k or as far as i can past that. It would just be a good way to vent some frustration. My ?. To do this build what would be on my budget build list? I have friend of a friend that does some good in-house gun builds. Will get him to help/guide me in assembly & so forth. Some input would be greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Match


This is the best part...it's the cheepest to shoot as well. As of last check...Midway was selling...

Hornady 6.5CM for $24 a box
CorBon 260Rem for $31 a box
Federal GMM .308win $37 a box
6.5x47 Lapua for $57 a box


$1200 for 1000 rounds of loaded match ammo in Hornady 6.5CM

$1550 for 1000 rounds of Corbon 260

$1850 for 1000 rounds of Federal GMM .308....(this is insane)

$2850 for 1000 rounds of 6.5x47 Lapua

Be safe, shoot well

--KJ </div></div>

not that you dont have good points here but ammoman.com REGULARLY has sales for FGMM $20 a box.... meaning $1000 for 1000 rounds shipped. So not to sure thats a huge driving factor.. better argument with the ballistics than the price..
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wahoo87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a savage action with a 300 win mag bolt face. </div></div>

Where did you get that from??? I´ve been trying to find one of those for ages... seems like savage built a product with no intention to sell it.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Using a McMillan built M40A1 in 300 win mag. Load was between 68.5 and 70 grains of IMR 4350, Sierra 190 MK, Win cases, Fed 215 primers.

Barrel #1= 850 rounds and replaced (Schnieder barrel I think)
Barrel #2=875 rounds and replaced (Schneider 1-10 polygon)
Barrel #3=900 rounds and replaced (Schneider 1-10 polygon)
Barrel #4=875 rounds and set back. So far 250 through set back barrel

Barrel #3 was sold to a friend who had it set back. The gunsmith who set it back just less than one turn asked why it was taken off. Gunsmith said he bore scoped the barrel and it was beautiful. My friend explained that I was a precision shooter, and the rifle started throwing occasional rounds as flyers. After the set back, the barrel again shoots beautifully. Gunsmith reported there was hardly any of the dry lake bed look in the throat.

The increase in barrel life is due to my shooting more slowly, hence keeping the barrel a little cooler, and my changing from 70 to 68.5 grains of powder. The 68.5 grain load gives around 2960 fps from a 24 inch tube.

Barrel #4 is an Obermeyer 1-11 5R. If I'm having a good day, rifle gives 1.3-1.5 inch groups at 300 yards. I'm usually not that good, and get about 2 inches at 300 yards.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rtgfi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-Kicks like a sledge hammer

</div></div>

Well, compared to the .338 lapua the .300 win mag kicks like a .22.
I ONCE shot a .338 LM and it left me with a good bruise for about 3 days.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: inanimate1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking into a .300 R.U.M., googled it every way i could. Seems to have enough force downrange 1k yrd+, and good flat trajectory, from what i have read. I just plane want to shoot as close to 1k or as far as i can past that. It would just be a good way to vent some frustration. My ?. To do this build what would be on my budget build list? I have friend of a friend that does some good in-house gun builds. Will get him to help/guide me in assembly & so forth. Some input would be greatly appreciated.</div></div>

Yes, a .300 RUM will get you well past 1000 yds. BUT: Its known as one of the fastest barrel-burners out there. Plan on replacing the barrel every 500-600 rounds. I would rather consider a .300 win. mag. That will give you awesome performance out to 1300 yds and a barrel life of past 1000 rds, if you treat it well.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Here's one thats not at the top of the long range list but still worth writing up.

300 Fireball (300-221, 30-221, 300 whisper)
The case is based on the .223 remington shortened and necked down to .30 cal.

Pros:
any rifle using a .223 can be rebarreled to use this round without exceeding mag length.
Accuracy potential is outstanding.
Bullet selection is very wide offering everything from subsonic suppressed shooting of 240gr slugs to 2400fps+ with the lightweight 110gr plinkers.
An excellent round for target shooting or hunting
amazing range capability
Remington has spec'd the round so new brass and ammo will be available to non reloaders (300 blackout)
High efficiency in loading. 18gr of powder pushes a 110gr bullet at 2400fps, 8gr of powder pushes a 240gr bullet at 1050. (unlike the 98gr of powder pushing my 250gr .338LM slugs at 2850)

Cons:
you have to make up your own brass and reload (right now)
Rainbow like trajectory with heavy bullets at longer range.
wide variation in specs for dimensions making ammo non-interchangeable (also for now)

I'm sure there are lots of other pro's and cons but thats a start. Some of us like to shoot quietly and 240gr .30 cal shots at 300yds are easily done. . . very quiet.


Frank
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

"you have to make up your own brass and reload (right now)"

Remington 300 AAC BLACKOUT has been for sale, but is generally sold out until January.

"wide variation in specs for dimensions making ammo non-interchangeable (also for now)"

300 AAC BLACKOUT is 300 AAC BLACKOUT and was submitted to SAAMI. The others are wildcats or proprietary. Loading for 300 Fireball or 300-221 would be like loading for 22 Varminter instead of 22-250 or loading for 6.5-08 rather than 260 Remington.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=128
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I use a Sako 85 7mm rem mag and a wby 7mm rem mag for hunting and punching paper. Was the 7mm rem mag ever used by snipers for military applications? Would love to see a pros and cons list of the cartridge.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

whats the hides thoughts, opinions and data on a 6TCU ?
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I skimmed the entire thread, but only saw one short post on the .25-06
Any thoughts on the pros and cons of it? Has it really become obsolete?
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Good thread.

I'm about to start building a savage, and I'm pretty well set on 7mm-08 as the chambering. It doesn't seem very popular for LR use, but from ballistics charts it appears to be a pretty good choice, and should have better barrel life than a .260 rem.

Thoughts on the 7mm-08? Is the Ackley Improved version worth pursuing?
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

As the bore size goes up for a given parent case, the general trend is that the benefits in performance for AI's decrease. A 308 AI has a lot smaller benefit than a 243 AI, the 7-08 AI would not exhibit as much increase as the 260AI, but some increase would be noticed for sure.

THe 7-08 is an excellent round to use and it's gaining popularity as the 7mm bullets on the market have become more popular in the past couple of years.

It doesn't quite have the drop numbers that a 260 will at long distance, but it has as good or better wind behavior. Prepare yourself to be reloading if you are going to shoot a 7-08, otherwise, call ChadTRG42 and get a setup from him to get homerolled, custom ammo. I think there are some others on here as well that do it, but that's a topic for a different thread.

The round is excellent for hunting and target use.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kd185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whats the hides thoughts, opinions and data on a 6TCU ?
</div></div>

I have a 6-223 which is the non-improved 6 TCU. A 6 TCU is essentially a 6mm-223 (6x45) with an improved job on it.

It is a great little truck gun and paper and varmint rig inside 400yd. Beyond that the bullet weights that it handles easily (up to about 85gr) start to peter off in performance and the heavier, high BC stuff like the 105-115 classes just don't get the powder volume behind them to make 'em sing.

I built it with the idea of making a bolt gun to rival 308 trajectory behavior without going to a 22cal bullet. On paper it worked out, but I just couldn't realize the speeds with the 105's that I needed to make stuff match up. I was pushing awfully high pressures and brass was failing quickly.


On the 25-06

This chambering is a great use of capacity but the bullets available for it are not up to par anymore. Another option for a smaller bore in the venerable old case is the 6.5-06 which has LOTS of bullet availability but with the minimal recoil and stellar performance on game and targets.

Speeds are akin to a 6.5-284 but the long neck and shorter freebore in the reamers tends to help with barrel life a little more. It is still high maintenance when loaded to capacity and full performance is gleaned. Figure on a 140 Berger pushing almost 3200 from a 28" barrel, but figure that tube will last 1500 rounds at those speeds.

THe 25 version suffers from the fact that the majority of 25 tubes on the market have too slow of a twist to use the heavier bullets for long range and so there aren't a whole lot of them available.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kd185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whats the hides thoughts, opinions and data on a 6TCU ?
</div></div>

I have a 6-223 which is the non-improved 6 TCU. A 6 TCU is essentially a 6mm-223 (6x45) with an improved job on it.

It is a great little truck gun and paper and varmint rig inside 400yd. Beyond that the bullet weights that it handles easily (up to about 85gr) start to peter off in performance and the heavier, high BC stuff like the 105-115 classes just don't get the powder volume behind them to make 'em sing.

I built it with the idea of making a bolt gun to rival 308 trajectory behavior without going to a 22cal bullet. On paper it worked out, but I just couldn't realize the speeds with the 105's that I needed to make stuff match up. I was pushing awfully high pressures and brass was failing quickly.
</div></div>

thanks
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the bore size goes up for a given parent case, the general trend is that the benefits in performance for AI's decrease. A 308 AI has a lot smaller benefit than a 243 AI, the 7-08 AI would not exhibit as much increase as the 260AI, but some increase would be noticed for sure.

THe 7-08 is an excellent round to use and it's gaining popularity as the 7mm bullets on the market have become more popular in the past couple of years.

It doesn't quite have the drop numbers that a 260 will at long distance, but it has as good or better wind behavior. Prepare yourself to be reloading if you are going to shoot a 7-08, otherwise, call ChadTRG42 and get a setup from him to get homerolled, custom ammo. I think there are some others on here as well that do it, but that's a topic for a different thread.

The round is excellent for hunting and target use. </div></div>

I did notice a little more drop on the charts for the 7-08 versus 260, but it didn't appear to be really significant. I handload virtually everything I shoot already, so ammo won't be an issue. I suppose I just need to make up my mind now on dies and other tools.
smile.gif
Thanks!
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On the 25-06

This chambering is a great use of capacity but the bullets available for it are not up to par anymore. Another option for a smaller bore in the venerable old case is the 6.5-06 which has LOTS of bullet availability but with the minimal recoil and stellar performance on game and targets.

Speeds are akin to a 6.5-284 but the long neck and shorter freebore in the reamers tends to help with barrel life a little more. It is still high maintenance when loaded to capacity and full performance is gleaned. Figure on a 140 Berger pushing almost 3200 from a 28" barrel, but figure that tube will last 1500 rounds at those speeds.

THe 25 version suffers from the fact that the majority of 25 tubes on the market have too slow of a twist to use the heavier bullets for long range and so there aren't a whole lot of them available. </div></div>

Thanks for the heads up on the 6.5-06, I am definaly going to have to look into that one.
Great thread
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I love this thread ... great information.

As for my personal choice (I am old school I suppose) but I have always found my .308 to be trustworthy. I built my self my own M40A1 when I got out of the Corps in the mid 90's and never bothered to look back.

I don't shoot much these days it is hard to find the time but looking at the prices for some of the newer options and the recoil factor I personally have to say I don't plan on changing my caliber anytime soon.

I recently went shooting with a close friend and fellow long range shooter and he brought along his .338 and a 300 win mag. I do have to say I was impressed by the consistency at 900 to 1000 yards on the .338. Now that being said ... after about 20 rounds out of both of his rifles I didn't find any joy in it any longer. Where areas I have seldom ever had that with my .308.

In closing I would have to say an old cliche "to each their own" find the rifle that suits you and you are comfortable with and find the best ammo for you. If you know what you are doing you can make yourself something that can bring a lifetime of enjoyment.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Great work Gentlemen!

Any chance of getting this thread in a hardbound copy?
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

Very helpful. Would this be the correct place to ask an opinion? 340 Weatherby vs 338 RUM... I think the RUM is a better choice due to the shorter case, allowing more room in the magazine for the longer heavier bullets these cartridges would thrive on. I'd like to hear some opinions on fast 33's.
 
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

I currently own a 338 lapua. Its been hard on the pocket book, but in my opinion has out performed my expectations! Mine is an AR 30 platform. Very accurate at long range. Haven't seen better than .3 moa at 100 yards. I'm looking at another in a sako trg. Another idea would be the .338 edge. I've heard its given the lapua a run for its money, and I believe it gets better stats with the 300gr bullets.
 
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