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Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dwhunts</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The short case places the powder charge closer to the primer. The proximity of the powder to the primer promotes a faster and more uniform ignition. IMO this contributes to accuracy. </div></div>
Ok. What other cartridges are considered to have this desirable attribute (short & fat)?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dwhunts</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The short case places the powder charge closer to the primer. The proximity of the powder to the primer promotes a faster and more uniform ignition. IMO this contributes to accuracy. </div></div>
Ok. What other cartridges are considered to have this desirable attribute (short & fat)?
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
cool write thanks
cool write thanks
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
i am curious on a direct comparison on the 6.5creedmore and the 6.5x284 im having a debate on these 2. Ammo cost vs ballistics etc? thanks, great thread, nothing but good knowledge here.
i am curious on a direct comparison on the 6.5creedmore and the 6.5x284 im having a debate on these 2. Ammo cost vs ballistics etc? thanks, great thread, nothing but good knowledge here.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halligan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">.22-250 Remington</span>
I will have to speak on the .22-250 since I have spent the most time developing loads and shooting this cartridge, than any other, in the last six months.
History
The .22-250 started life in the 1930's as a wildcat cartridge developed from the .250 Savage case necked down to take a .224 caliber bullet.
The .22-250 is very similar to but slightly outperformed (approx 100 ft/s) by the longer .220 Swift cartridge. However, it is in much wider use and has a larger variety of commercially available factory ammunition than the Swift. This makes it generally cheaper to shoot. The smaller powder load also contributes to longer barrel life, an important factor for high-volume shooters. Due to its rimless case the 22-250 also feeds from a box magazine with ease.
Pros:
-Bullet weight options from 36gr. to 70gr.
-Velocities from 4400 fps. with the 36gr. bullet to the 70 gr. bullet producing 3300 fps.
-As compared to the .223 Rem. firing a 55 gr. bullet. The .223 produces 3300 fps. at the muzzle vs. the .22-250 producing 3600 fps. It is fast!
-It delivers very good energy levels at short to moderate range: 1200 ft/lbs. @ 100 yds. to 400 ft/ lbs. @ 500 yds. (I have personally punched through 1/2" plate steel leaning 45 degrees toward me, on the second shot, at 100 yards.)
-Has a much greater barrel life than that of the 220 Swift.
-It is flat shooting. with a 200 yard zero the trajectory is -3.75" @ 300 yds., -20" @ 400 yds. -36" @ 500 yds. (55 gr. bullet)
-There is factory ammunition readily available from a long list of manufacturers.
-Because it is a .224. There is a wide variety of bullet choices for the reloader.
-It can be loaded with the same powders as many other popular cartriges such as the .308, .30-30, .30-06, .223 for example.
-Properly hand loaded ammunition can allow cases to be reloaded after several firings.
-It is arguably the best varmint cartrige on the market today. A hunting magazine editor once said "Most likely, more coyotes have fallen to the .22-250 than any other cartrige." It is an excellent prarie dog cartrige. As they are usually hunted in a moderate to high wind atmosphere.
Cons:
-Most rifles come in 1:12" or 1:14" twist. Which will usually only stabilize up to 60 gr. high BC bullets. They will stabilize the 70 gr. Speer, but not generally the 68-69 gr. match bullets. The 1:7 or 1:8 twist rate would most likely require a custom barrel. (sandwarrior's contribution)
-It is not available in factory produced AR platform rifles which gives more praise to the .223 Rem.
-Because it is not available in AR platform rifles it will most likely not be found at a 3 gun, run-and-gun, Tactical type rifle matches.
-There is no Military Surplus brass available for it, as opposed to the .223/ 5.56 NATO.
-Factory ammunition costs significantly more than that of the .223/ 5.56
-Because it is only a .22 caliber cartrige it is not suitable for anything larger than small whitetail deer.
-Because of it's light bullet it's maximum effective range is only 400-500 yards as opposed to cartriges chambered with 6.5 mm and larger bullets.
I, of course, am open to anyone who can add to or correct this information. </div></div>Nice write up, I'd like to add: the 250-3000 savage was developed by Charles Newton-not a bad start in life!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halligan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">.22-250 Remington</span>
I will have to speak on the .22-250 since I have spent the most time developing loads and shooting this cartridge, than any other, in the last six months.
History
The .22-250 started life in the 1930's as a wildcat cartridge developed from the .250 Savage case necked down to take a .224 caliber bullet.
The .22-250 is very similar to but slightly outperformed (approx 100 ft/s) by the longer .220 Swift cartridge. However, it is in much wider use and has a larger variety of commercially available factory ammunition than the Swift. This makes it generally cheaper to shoot. The smaller powder load also contributes to longer barrel life, an important factor for high-volume shooters. Due to its rimless case the 22-250 also feeds from a box magazine with ease.
Pros:
-Bullet weight options from 36gr. to 70gr.
-Velocities from 4400 fps. with the 36gr. bullet to the 70 gr. bullet producing 3300 fps.
-As compared to the .223 Rem. firing a 55 gr. bullet. The .223 produces 3300 fps. at the muzzle vs. the .22-250 producing 3600 fps. It is fast!
-It delivers very good energy levels at short to moderate range: 1200 ft/lbs. @ 100 yds. to 400 ft/ lbs. @ 500 yds. (I have personally punched through 1/2" plate steel leaning 45 degrees toward me, on the second shot, at 100 yards.)
-Has a much greater barrel life than that of the 220 Swift.
-It is flat shooting. with a 200 yard zero the trajectory is -3.75" @ 300 yds., -20" @ 400 yds. -36" @ 500 yds. (55 gr. bullet)
-There is factory ammunition readily available from a long list of manufacturers.
-Because it is a .224. There is a wide variety of bullet choices for the reloader.
-It can be loaded with the same powders as many other popular cartriges such as the .308, .30-30, .30-06, .223 for example.
-Properly hand loaded ammunition can allow cases to be reloaded after several firings.
-It is arguably the best varmint cartrige on the market today. A hunting magazine editor once said "Most likely, more coyotes have fallen to the .22-250 than any other cartrige." It is an excellent prarie dog cartrige. As they are usually hunted in a moderate to high wind atmosphere.
Cons:
-Most rifles come in 1:12" or 1:14" twist. Which will usually only stabilize up to 60 gr. high BC bullets. They will stabilize the 70 gr. Speer, but not generally the 68-69 gr. match bullets. The 1:7 or 1:8 twist rate would most likely require a custom barrel. (sandwarrior's contribution)
-It is not available in factory produced AR platform rifles which gives more praise to the .223 Rem.
-Because it is not available in AR platform rifles it will most likely not be found at a 3 gun, run-and-gun, Tactical type rifle matches.
-There is no Military Surplus brass available for it, as opposed to the .223/ 5.56 NATO.
-Factory ammunition costs significantly more than that of the .223/ 5.56
-Because it is only a .22 caliber cartrige it is not suitable for anything larger than small whitetail deer.
-Because of it's light bullet it's maximum effective range is only 400-500 yards as opposed to cartriges chambered with 6.5 mm and larger bullets.
I, of course, am open to anyone who can add to or correct this information. </div></div>Nice write up, I'd like to add: the 250-3000 savage was developed by Charles Newton-not a bad start in life!
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Well oddly enough I just made this same choice. 6.5 CM & 6.5-284 are both fine cartridges, IMO the best choices in 6.5 for a short action. Now some will say that the 6.5-284 is better suited for a long action, but the case was designed for a short. For me it came down to what I intended to do with the rifle. Long range shots on deer. So I opted for the 200+ fps advantage of the 6.5-284. I reload, so the availability of high quality brass for the '284 was also a consideration. As of right now the CM is a Hornady only proposition. I'll say this right now. On this forum and many others, you have people talking all the time about barrel burners. IMO if you are worried about burning out a barrel, just stick with a 308. I'm tired of hearing about it, for me it's just not a consideration, and that's all I'll ever say on the matter. Now, if you are considering a DBM, I'd opt for the CM. No two ways around it the CM will work better in a DBM. As I use a blind box, the '284 works fine in it. If you don't reload the '284 still has the edge in # of manufacturers that load it and # of loadings. As I've said the CM is Hornady only, but you can get it factory chambered in DPMS's excellent LR series. I hope this helps. If I can think of anything else relevant I'll post it.
"Update 3-25-11" I just discovered that I made an oversight when I was originally researching these two cartridges. 6.5x284 the wildcat has a COL of 2.8", like any other short action cartridge. 6.5x284 Norma has a COL of 3.228", that's medium action length. Oops... Well, I'm having it chambered in a Savage short action as I type this. The HSM ammo with 140gr Bergers I purchased to use for my barrel break in are right around 2.907". The magazine in my Savage is 2.9". No big deal, I'll single load them for the break in. I've just about settled on either the 130gr AccuBond or Scirocco 2 for load development. I don't think I'll have any trouble fitting them in the magazine. I will not be able to chase the lands much, but I like a little free bore anyway (Weatherby shooter). This just goes to show you, you can never be "well informed" enough. You got to do your research. I still think I would have done the same thing, even if I had known this before hand.
Something else I forgot to say in here before. You can make 6.5CM brass, out of 308 Lapua brass. This process would be labor intensive, and more trouble than I would be willing to go through.
Well oddly enough I just made this same choice. 6.5 CM & 6.5-284 are both fine cartridges, IMO the best choices in 6.5 for a short action. Now some will say that the 6.5-284 is better suited for a long action, but the case was designed for a short. For me it came down to what I intended to do with the rifle. Long range shots on deer. So I opted for the 200+ fps advantage of the 6.5-284. I reload, so the availability of high quality brass for the '284 was also a consideration. As of right now the CM is a Hornady only proposition. I'll say this right now. On this forum and many others, you have people talking all the time about barrel burners. IMO if you are worried about burning out a barrel, just stick with a 308. I'm tired of hearing about it, for me it's just not a consideration, and that's all I'll ever say on the matter. Now, if you are considering a DBM, I'd opt for the CM. No two ways around it the CM will work better in a DBM. As I use a blind box, the '284 works fine in it. If you don't reload the '284 still has the edge in # of manufacturers that load it and # of loadings. As I've said the CM is Hornady only, but you can get it factory chambered in DPMS's excellent LR series. I hope this helps. If I can think of anything else relevant I'll post it.
"Update 3-25-11" I just discovered that I made an oversight when I was originally researching these two cartridges. 6.5x284 the wildcat has a COL of 2.8", like any other short action cartridge. 6.5x284 Norma has a COL of 3.228", that's medium action length. Oops... Well, I'm having it chambered in a Savage short action as I type this. The HSM ammo with 140gr Bergers I purchased to use for my barrel break in are right around 2.907". The magazine in my Savage is 2.9". No big deal, I'll single load them for the break in. I've just about settled on either the 130gr AccuBond or Scirocco 2 for load development. I don't think I'll have any trouble fitting them in the magazine. I will not be able to chase the lands much, but I like a little free bore anyway (Weatherby shooter). This just goes to show you, you can never be "well informed" enough. You got to do your research. I still think I would have done the same thing, even if I had known this before hand.
Something else I forgot to say in here before. You can make 6.5CM brass, out of 308 Lapua brass. This process would be labor intensive, and more trouble than I would be willing to go through.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Since the "300win and sell everything else" quote would be frowned upon...
the main reason i shoot personally is to kill critters. yes i have fun at the range with a 300win, but it is a tool. It is a dominating caliber, with a tremendous variety of loads available for purchase or custom loads. I joined the sniper hide lookin for more info on MK 248 Mod 1 ammo...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...496#Post2457496
after shooting this ammo my resolve for a 338 lap died. my urge to shot my 308 died. my urge to shoot my 7 mags died. you get the point.
what other common caliber can deliver death from 1ft to 1500yds in such a tremendous manner? With cheap 150gr corlokt ive seen moa or groups better out of hunting rifle to 300yds...
it is vicious and it is unrelenting to those who choose to employ its capabilities on the hunt. slap a muzzle break on it and throw rocks. but again i am hunter. not a paperman, i use my 17hmr for that kind of fun...
Since the "300win and sell everything else" quote would be frowned upon...
the main reason i shoot personally is to kill critters. yes i have fun at the range with a 300win, but it is a tool. It is a dominating caliber, with a tremendous variety of loads available for purchase or custom loads. I joined the sniper hide lookin for more info on MK 248 Mod 1 ammo...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...496#Post2457496
after shooting this ammo my resolve for a 338 lap died. my urge to shot my 308 died. my urge to shoot my 7 mags died. you get the point.
what other common caliber can deliver death from 1ft to 1500yds in such a tremendous manner? With cheap 150gr corlokt ive seen moa or groups better out of hunting rifle to 300yds...
it is vicious and it is unrelenting to those who choose to employ its capabilities on the hunt. slap a muzzle break on it and throw rocks. but again i am hunter. not a paperman, i use my 17hmr for that kind of fun...
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
I've been looking for ballistics data on the .375 Cheytac. I realize that this gun is going to punish the shooter both in the shoulder and wallet but that's the price you pay to throw a heavy bullet down range and still have a modicum of reasonable trajectory and serious thump when the bullet gets there. I'd like to see muzzle velocity, best bullet weight (in grains)and the ballistic co-efficient. It has been said that the .375 CT is better than the .338 Lapua. OK, why and how much? I just can't really justify a .408 CT or a .50 BMG.
(Maybe I can't really justify anything bigger than the .30-06 I already own.)
I've been looking for ballistics data on the .375 Cheytac. I realize that this gun is going to punish the shooter both in the shoulder and wallet but that's the price you pay to throw a heavy bullet down range and still have a modicum of reasonable trajectory and serious thump when the bullet gets there. I'd like to see muzzle velocity, best bullet weight (in grains)and the ballistic co-efficient. It has been said that the .375 CT is better than the .338 Lapua. OK, why and how much? I just can't really justify a .408 CT or a .50 BMG.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
7.62x39 (308)
- 50-300y
- barrel lasts forever
- almost no recoil
- who will expect it
- economical to reload
6.5x47AI
- for 300-600y
- nice barrel life
- light recoil
- good ballistics
- efficient case
7mm-270WSM
- for 600-1200y
- barrel life sucks
- moderate recoil
- best ballistics vs recoil compromise
375 snipetac (working on one anyway)
- for 1200+
- barrel life sucks
- recoil sucks
- ammo cost sucks
- weight sucks
- a wet dream none the less
7.62x39 (308)
- 50-300y
- barrel lasts forever
- almost no recoil
- who will expect it
- economical to reload
6.5x47AI
- for 300-600y
- nice barrel life
- light recoil
- good ballistics
- efficient case
7mm-270WSM
- for 600-1200y
- barrel life sucks
- moderate recoil
- best ballistics vs recoil compromise
375 snipetac (working on one anyway)
- for 1200+
- barrel life sucks
- recoil sucks
- ammo cost sucks
- weight sucks
- a wet dream none the less
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
how about .243 win? around here, northern ohio, a handful of us use .243's for groundhogs, including myself. some day i'd like to push to around 1000 yards, possibly 1200. how well does the .243 handle those ranges, or what 6mm would perform better?
how about .243 win? around here, northern ohio, a handful of us use .243's for groundhogs, including myself. some day i'd like to push to around 1000 yards, possibly 1200. how well does the .243 handle those ranges, or what 6mm would perform better?
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
6x47 would maybe handle more pressure and is less overbore. Don't think it would be a lot of difference if any. What bullets?
6x47 would maybe handle more pressure and is less overbore. Don't think it would be a lot of difference if any. What bullets?
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
i've loaded 55gr nosler ballistic tip, 65 br v-max, 95 gr nosler ballistic tip, and my current is 100 gr speer btsp. my best group with the speer's has been .108 at 100, but normally i keep them between .25 and .5 moa.
like i said, i use it mostly for hunting, so i'd like to stick with a bullet that will work well for both. the good news for me, a build is very easy for me to get done, one of my best friends is a smith, i already know how to do most of the work, anything, what i dont he'll help me along with. i also have access to his shop, tools, and practically no mark up on the components
i've loaded 55gr nosler ballistic tip, 65 br v-max, 95 gr nosler ballistic tip, and my current is 100 gr speer btsp. my best group with the speer's has been .108 at 100, but normally i keep them between .25 and .5 moa.
like i said, i use it mostly for hunting, so i'd like to stick with a bullet that will work well for both. the good news for me, a build is very easy for me to get done, one of my best friends is a smith, i already know how to do most of the work, anything, what i dont he'll help me along with. i also have access to his shop, tools, and practically no mark up on the components
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
i think i'll stick with the 100 speers, consistently under 1/2 moa, sometimes 1/4 or less, and a .430 BC, 3100 fps. until i can afford the .338 lapua or a .50, really make the neighbors wonder what the hell my issues really are.
i think i'll stick with the 100 speers, consistently under 1/2 moa, sometimes 1/4 or less, and a .430 BC, 3100 fps. until i can afford the .338 lapua or a .50, really make the neighbors wonder what the hell my issues really are.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
That's a good BC for a speer. I agree, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It sounds like it's working good for you. The 105gr Berger is worth a look tho', .532 BC. If you are thinking about a .338, you should look into the .338 RUM. Basically the same ballistics as the Lapua, but cheaper for both rifle and ammo. Plus it's a shorter case, so you have more room to play around with bullet seating depth. I bet that .338 will treat those groundhogs, like my .243 treats prairie dogs. Get ready for some gore.
That's a good BC for a speer. I agree, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It sounds like it's working good for you. The 105gr Berger is worth a look tho', .532 BC. If you are thinking about a .338, you should look into the .338 RUM. Basically the same ballistics as the Lapua, but cheaper for both rifle and ammo. Plus it's a shorter case, so you have more room to play around with bullet seating depth. I bet that .338 will treat those groundhogs, like my .243 treats prairie dogs. Get ready for some gore.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Quote
On the 25-06
This chambering is a great use of capacity but the bullets available for it are not up to par anymore. Another option for a smaller bore in the venerable old case is the 6.5-06 which has LOTS of bullet availability but with the minimal recoil and stellar performance on game and targets.
Speeds are akin to a 6.5-284 but the long neck and shorter freebore in the reamers tends to help with barrel life a little more. It is still high maintenance when loaded to capacity and full performance is gleaned. Figure on a 140 Berger pushing almost 3200 from a 28" barrel, but figure that tube will last 1500 rounds at those speeds.
THe 25 version suffers from the fact that the majority of 25 tubes on the market have too slow of a twist to use the heavier bullets for long range and so there aren't a whole lot of them available. [/quote]
I just traded for a 25-06, and would be very interested in hearing from others on what the better bullets are. Not sure if I'll even keep the rifle, it is a very heavy barreled 700 with a Choat Ultimate Sniper stock, and weights a ton. My thinking is to just experiment with different bullets and powders and if I don't love it sell it on. ( I traded a Romanian AK even up for it so it isn't like I have any money in it.)
Quote
On the 25-06
This chambering is a great use of capacity but the bullets available for it are not up to par anymore. Another option for a smaller bore in the venerable old case is the 6.5-06 which has LOTS of bullet availability but with the minimal recoil and stellar performance on game and targets.
Speeds are akin to a 6.5-284 but the long neck and shorter freebore in the reamers tends to help with barrel life a little more. It is still high maintenance when loaded to capacity and full performance is gleaned. Figure on a 140 Berger pushing almost 3200 from a 28" barrel, but figure that tube will last 1500 rounds at those speeds.
THe 25 version suffers from the fact that the majority of 25 tubes on the market have too slow of a twist to use the heavier bullets for long range and so there aren't a whole lot of them available. [/quote]
I just traded for a 25-06, and would be very interested in hearing from others on what the better bullets are. Not sure if I'll even keep the rifle, it is a very heavy barreled 700 with a Choat Ultimate Sniper stock, and weights a ton. My thinking is to just experiment with different bullets and powders and if I don't love it sell it on. ( I traded a Romanian AK even up for it so it isn't like I have any money in it.)
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
I love my 308 and my 6.5 grendel. Grendel is super accurate and was built on a Savage action. My next build is a 280 AI from an old savage I have.
I love my 308 and my 6.5 grendel. Grendel is super accurate and was built on a Savage action. My next build is a 280 AI from an old savage I have.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Can anyone speak definitively about the .243 winchester and its bad reputation of being a barrel burner?
My limited research indicates that it suffers from throat erosion which can lead to an accurate barrel life of only 1,500-2,000rds.
My questions then are:
1. How accurate is the often quoted accurate barrel life?
2. What is the typical degradation in accuracy associated with throat erosion?
3. How far foward does the throat of the barrel move? Is the throat erosion phenomenon something that can be remedied by seating the bullet further foward?
4. What steps can be taken to increase accurate barrel life? Please include the typical increase in barrel life associated with each step.
5. I already have a bolt gun in .243...a savage model 12 VLP. I want to get a .243winchester in an AR platform. Most available barrel twists are 1:10. Can i run 105AMAX bullets effectively through this barrel twist rate?
Sorry to add nothing to this thread, but hopefully, these questions will spur a more informative write-up on the 243 winchester.
Thanks in advance.
Can anyone speak definitively about the .243 winchester and its bad reputation of being a barrel burner?
My limited research indicates that it suffers from throat erosion which can lead to an accurate barrel life of only 1,500-2,000rds.
My questions then are:
1. How accurate is the often quoted accurate barrel life?
2. What is the typical degradation in accuracy associated with throat erosion?
3. How far foward does the throat of the barrel move? Is the throat erosion phenomenon something that can be remedied by seating the bullet further foward?
4. What steps can be taken to increase accurate barrel life? Please include the typical increase in barrel life associated with each step.
5. I already have a bolt gun in .243...a savage model 12 VLP. I want to get a .243winchester in an AR platform. Most available barrel twists are 1:10. Can i run 105AMAX bullets effectively through this barrel twist rate?
Sorry to add nothing to this thread, but hopefully, these questions will spur a more informative write-up on the 243 winchester.
Thanks in advance.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone speak definitively about the .243 winchester and its bad reputation of being a barrel burner?
My limited research indicates that it suffers from throat erosion which can lead to an accurate barrel life of only 1,500-2,000rds.
My questions then are:
1. How accurate is the often quoted accurate barrel life?
2. What is the typical degradation in accuracy associated with throat erosion?
3. How far foward does the throat of the barrel move? Is the throat erosion phenomenon something that can be remedied by seating the bullet further foward?
4. What steps can be taken to increase accurate barrel life? Please include the typical increase in barrel life associated with each step.
5. I already have a bolt gun in .243...a savage model 12 VLP. I want to get a .243winchester in an AR platform. Most available barrel twists are 1:10. Can i run 105AMAX bullets effectively through this barrel twist rate?
Sorry to add nothing to this thread, but hopefully, these questions will spur a more informative write-up on the 243 winchester.
Thanks in advance.</div></div>
To address yours and josh1371's questions about the .243 Win. First, barrel life is extremely varied on the .243 depending on how you shoot it. Shoot it hot and fast and you may go through a barrel in one day. I've seen people do it. I have three .243's. Two of which are more target/tactical. The third is really my wife's and it's a really nice looking Savage 110 PE. All have excellent accuracy. The two target types both have about 1500 rounds through them. But, the barrel erosion isn't bad. Here's the reasons: I use a slower powder to reduce initial pressure upon ignition. I don't load max loads. In fact I usually try to find the second accuracy node down. Meaning a bullet I can push to 3400 usually gets out at 3200. That saves a lot of barrel. And, I allow the barrel to cool between shots. I never allow it to get too hot to the touch. If you are loading a 6x47 or 6-6.5CM at max you will burn out barrels faster than a .243 even though you may be using less powder. You have to factor in the pressure levels.
My point in all that is you CAN burn out a .243 in short order. It is not necessary to get the performance you need.
As far as going to 1k, You can do that quite easily with the right twist in your barrel. The 6mm Rem BR owns 1k records and it's 1/2" shorter than the .243. You need the high BC bullets to get there and those take the high twist.
But, if you have the standard twist in a .243 of 1-10" (anything tighter is considerd a match twist) there are a couple of standard bullets that will get you to 1k. The Sierra, 100 gr. GK and 90 gr. FMJBT. The 90 gr. BT by Nosler and the Berger 90 and 100 gr. match BT's. That's at standard sea level, and all but the Bergers just barely exceed the transonic range at 1K (therefore stability and thus accuracy*)
*Some bullets go through this phase quite well. High air density (high altitude) helps a bullet remain stable as well.
The bullets you want to avoid with a 1-10" (but work great in properly twisted barrels) are the 95, 107 and 115 SMK's, Berger 100 and 105 VLD's. The 95 gr. VLD may or may not stabilize in your barrel....even if you push it hard. Nosler 105 CC's and the Hornady 95 and 105 gr. Amax's.
So, in a nutshell your .243 is capable of shooting to 1k with good accuracy. If you have the tighter twist it can go farther.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone speak definitively about the .243 winchester and its bad reputation of being a barrel burner?
My limited research indicates that it suffers from throat erosion which can lead to an accurate barrel life of only 1,500-2,000rds.
My questions then are:
1. How accurate is the often quoted accurate barrel life?
2. What is the typical degradation in accuracy associated with throat erosion?
3. How far foward does the throat of the barrel move? Is the throat erosion phenomenon something that can be remedied by seating the bullet further foward?
4. What steps can be taken to increase accurate barrel life? Please include the typical increase in barrel life associated with each step.
5. I already have a bolt gun in .243...a savage model 12 VLP. I want to get a .243winchester in an AR platform. Most available barrel twists are 1:10. Can i run 105AMAX bullets effectively through this barrel twist rate?
Sorry to add nothing to this thread, but hopefully, these questions will spur a more informative write-up on the 243 winchester.
Thanks in advance.</div></div>
To address yours and josh1371's questions about the .243 Win. First, barrel life is extremely varied on the .243 depending on how you shoot it. Shoot it hot and fast and you may go through a barrel in one day. I've seen people do it. I have three .243's. Two of which are more target/tactical. The third is really my wife's and it's a really nice looking Savage 110 PE. All have excellent accuracy. The two target types both have about 1500 rounds through them. But, the barrel erosion isn't bad. Here's the reasons: I use a slower powder to reduce initial pressure upon ignition. I don't load max loads. In fact I usually try to find the second accuracy node down. Meaning a bullet I can push to 3400 usually gets out at 3200. That saves a lot of barrel. And, I allow the barrel to cool between shots. I never allow it to get too hot to the touch. If you are loading a 6x47 or 6-6.5CM at max you will burn out barrels faster than a .243 even though you may be using less powder. You have to factor in the pressure levels.
My point in all that is you CAN burn out a .243 in short order. It is not necessary to get the performance you need.
As far as going to 1k, You can do that quite easily with the right twist in your barrel. The 6mm Rem BR owns 1k records and it's 1/2" shorter than the .243. You need the high BC bullets to get there and those take the high twist.
But, if you have the standard twist in a .243 of 1-10" (anything tighter is considerd a match twist) there are a couple of standard bullets that will get you to 1k. The Sierra, 100 gr. GK and 90 gr. FMJBT. The 90 gr. BT by Nosler and the Berger 90 and 100 gr. match BT's. That's at standard sea level, and all but the Bergers just barely exceed the transonic range at 1K (therefore stability and thus accuracy*)
*Some bullets go through this phase quite well. High air density (high altitude) helps a bullet remain stable as well.
The bullets you want to avoid with a 1-10" (but work great in properly twisted barrels) are the 95, 107 and 115 SMK's, Berger 100 and 105 VLD's. The 95 gr. VLD may or may not stabilize in your barrel....even if you push it hard. Nosler 105 CC's and the Hornady 95 and 105 gr. Amax's.
So, in a nutshell your .243 is capable of shooting to 1k with good accuracy. If you have the tighter twist it can go farther.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Many Thanks Sandwarrior!
The solution seems to be "slow burning powder that delivers the required performance at the lowest initial pressure".
I have quickload, so i'll cycle through some of the powders to see which one(s) satisfy the requirement.
Do you have any recommendations on powder choice & max pressure levels consistent with long barrel life?
Your post has been a great help. I've been vacillating between getting a .243 or something else because of this singular issue. While a .243 is cheaper to load for than a 308, having to replace barrels every year or two makes most of the economics of shooting the .243 disappear.
Thanks again.
Many Thanks Sandwarrior!
The solution seems to be "slow burning powder that delivers the required performance at the lowest initial pressure".
I have quickload, so i'll cycle through some of the powders to see which one(s) satisfy the requirement.
Do you have any recommendations on powder choice & max pressure levels consistent with long barrel life?
Your post has been a great help. I've been vacillating between getting a .243 or something else because of this singular issue. While a .243 is cheaper to load for than a 308, having to replace barrels every year or two makes most of the economics of shooting the .243 disappear.
Thanks again.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many Thanks Sandwarrior!
<span style="font-weight: bold">The solution seems to be "slow burning powder that delivers the required performance at the lowest initial pressure". </span>
I have quickload, so i'll cycle through some of the powders to see which one(s) satisfy the requirement.
Do you have any recommendations on powder choice & max pressure levels consistent with long barrel life?
Your post has been a great help. I've been vacillating between getting a .243 or something else because of this singular issue. While a .243 is cheaper to load for than a 308, having to replace barrels every year or two makes most of the economics of shooting the .243 disappear.
Thanks again.</div></div>
Long barrels really help in that department with the .243 too. It just gives the bullet more time to build up that speed. I know folks can get close to the velocities with the short barrels but you have to be a little hard on them to do that.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
One of my favorites is 44 gr. of 4831 behind an 87/90 gr. bullet. 42.5 gr of RE-17 works great behind that as well. I like RE-19 too. It's accurate but a bit more temp sensitive than most powders.</span> <span style="color: #6600CC">{current powders, not older powders}</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">One of my all time favorites is 45.5 gr. of H4350X behind an 85 gr. spitzer or Nosler BT.
That's the lighter end. Start a couple grains below that and work up a ladder and see where your accuracy nodes are.
For the heavier end. RE-19 and RE-22 H4831 and even H1000 for the 100's and 105's. I know a lot of comp guys run the faster powders, but they have no problem replacing barrels often either. My whole thing with barrel length is I get the velocities I want without cooking the barrel to get them. Let the length work for you.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many Thanks Sandwarrior!
<span style="font-weight: bold">The solution seems to be "slow burning powder that delivers the required performance at the lowest initial pressure". </span>
I have quickload, so i'll cycle through some of the powders to see which one(s) satisfy the requirement.
Do you have any recommendations on powder choice & max pressure levels consistent with long barrel life?
Your post has been a great help. I've been vacillating between getting a .243 or something else because of this singular issue. While a .243 is cheaper to load for than a 308, having to replace barrels every year or two makes most of the economics of shooting the .243 disappear.
Thanks again.</div></div>
Long barrels really help in that department with the .243 too. It just gives the bullet more time to build up that speed. I know folks can get close to the velocities with the short barrels but you have to be a little hard on them to do that.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
One of my favorites is 44 gr. of 4831 behind an 87/90 gr. bullet. 42.5 gr of RE-17 works great behind that as well. I like RE-19 too. It's accurate but a bit more temp sensitive than most powders.</span> <span style="color: #6600CC">{current powders, not older powders}</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">One of my all time favorites is 45.5 gr. of H4350X behind an 85 gr. spitzer or Nosler BT.
That's the lighter end. Start a couple grains below that and work up a ladder and see where your accuracy nodes are.
For the heavier end. RE-19 and RE-22 H4831 and even H1000 for the 100's and 105's. I know a lot of comp guys run the faster powders, but they have no problem replacing barrels often either. My whole thing with barrel length is I get the velocities I want without cooking the barrel to get them. Let the length work for you.</span>
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Excellent post.I choose the 6.5x47lapua and 300WM as my top 2
Excellent post.I choose the 6.5x47lapua and 300WM as my top 2
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Thank you for posting all this info, couldn't find a detailed description like this anywhere else
Thank you for posting all this info, couldn't find a detailed description like this anywhere else
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
I have an old 243. that was passed down from my grandfather. Its got to have a few thousand rounds through it I have no problem hitting groundhogs passed 200 yards.
I have an old 243. that was passed down from my grandfather. Its got to have a few thousand rounds through it I have no problem hitting groundhogs passed 200 yards.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mackillan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Sako 85 7mm rem mag and a wby 7mm rem mag for hunting and punching paper. Was the 7mm rem mag ever used by snipers for military applications? Would love to see a pros and cons list of the cartridge. </div></div>X2. Like to see a write up on the 7mm rem mag. I just finished a Sako M995 in 7mag with a Bartlein 9.5-9.0 gain twist 5R, #9, 28" sitting in a Manners T4A. New to LR shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mackillan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Sako 85 7mm rem mag and a wby 7mm rem mag for hunting and punching paper. Was the 7mm rem mag ever used by snipers for military applications? Would love to see a pros and cons list of the cartridge. </div></div>X2. Like to see a write up on the 7mm rem mag. I just finished a Sako M995 in 7mag with a Bartlein 9.5-9.0 gain twist 5R, #9, 28" sitting in a Manners T4A. New to LR shooting.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
I would like to see somebody knowledgeable do a right up on the 7mm calibers. It seems to outperform the 300 cartridges with less powder and less recoil and much higher BC's. I know the 300 are the old standby's but in my limited experience and research a 7mm can outperform it in most cases. Can anybody make a comment on this? Thanks.
I would like to see somebody knowledgeable do a right up on the 7mm calibers. It seems to outperform the 300 cartridges with less powder and less recoil and much higher BC's. I know the 300 are the old standby's but in my limited experience and research a 7mm can outperform it in most cases. Can anybody make a comment on this? Thanks.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wetzel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see somebody knowledgeable do a right up on the 7mm calibers. It seems to outperform the 300 cartridges with less powder and less recoil and much higher BC's. I know the 300 are the old standby's but in my limited experience and research a 7mm can outperform it in most cases. Can anybody make a comment on this? Thanks. </div></div>
Rather than repeating what already has been written, try these articles by Bryan Litz:
Understanding LR Bullets Part 1
Understanding LR Bullets: Part II
What's wrong with .30 Cal.
After reading you will have a better understanding of external ballistics, and how calibers relate to one another performance wise.
But one thing is not mentioned, to take full advantage of the ballistics the better 6mm, 6.5mm and the 7mm cartridges have to offer, you almost must reload due to the lack suitable factory match ammo . In addition, there is a dirth of "off the shelf" factory rifles chambered for the better performers or if so chambered many a lack of the appropriate barrel twist to launch high BC bullets.
The 30 cals on the other hand, have a large selection of suitable HB rifles, twisted properly and a vast selection of factory match ammo.
So if you want off the self performance, in rifles that most can afford, with a large selection of factory match fodder, then the 30 cals are your huckleberry.
Bob
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wetzel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see somebody knowledgeable do a right up on the 7mm calibers. It seems to outperform the 300 cartridges with less powder and less recoil and much higher BC's. I know the 300 are the old standby's but in my limited experience and research a 7mm can outperform it in most cases. Can anybody make a comment on this? Thanks. </div></div>
Rather than repeating what already has been written, try these articles by Bryan Litz:
Understanding LR Bullets Part 1
Understanding LR Bullets: Part II
What's wrong with .30 Cal.
After reading you will have a better understanding of external ballistics, and how calibers relate to one another performance wise.
But one thing is not mentioned, to take full advantage of the ballistics the better 6mm, 6.5mm and the 7mm cartridges have to offer, you almost must reload due to the lack suitable factory match ammo . In addition, there is a dirth of "off the shelf" factory rifles chambered for the better performers or if so chambered many a lack of the appropriate barrel twist to launch high BC bullets.
The 30 cals on the other hand, have a large selection of suitable HB rifles, twisted properly and a vast selection of factory match ammo.
So if you want off the self performance, in rifles that most can afford, with a large selection of factory match fodder, then the 30 cals are your huckleberry.
Bob
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
@Wetzel,
BobinNC said it straight up, as usual. I will add though, JBM's smiplified ballistics calculator is fun to play with.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/
It is maintained by Bryal Litz. If you are willing to put in a couple hours to get to know the bullets and pull up Hodgdon.com and go to their free online reloading manual you can begin to see what various calibres at various muzzle velocities will do. You can even play with temp's, altitudes, and crosswinds. It has a lot of functionality built in. When you start playing with crosswinds and the various bullets, you can Really Begin to See a part of the "Story" unfold.
A good friend of mine is an Avid Hunter. He goes to various parts of the lower 48 to hunt on a regular basis. Rarely does he come back empty handed. That said, I taught him to reload for his 338 win, 270win, and 25-06rem. A bit later, I taught him how to set up his 338 so it didnt bloody him every other shot Still later yet, one day I introduced him to JBM and a Mil Dot Scope... his 338 had destroyed his scope, So i pulled the 3x9 tasco mil dot off of my .22Lr and handed it to him (out at the range), and began to explain Mil Dots dont = military and human targets only ect... once he put the mil dot with JBM and added in his newfound reloading know how, he was suddenly MUCH more comfortable attempting (and making) 500-600 yard+ shots. "JBM and mil dots are a lot like cheating!" he said to me. Oh, he does cheat a bit, he also has a range-finder.
Later on, he replaced the tasco with a much better mildot unit, and my .22Lr is happy again
Sorry to ramble on, some days I do that. I used to be a rabid foaming at the mouth reloader / shooter. At first, I went shooting so I could Reload. Later on, after many thousands of rounds down range, I finally started reloading so I could go shooting I have reloaded for A LOT of different rifles and calibre's, my mentor had quite a collection. There is no such thing as ballistic magic. It is all about engineering trade off's. Bullet length, bullet profile, muzzle velocity, bullet construction, all have a big effect on down range behaviour.
I love the 6.5, but then I love 7mm, and 30cal. Each have their +'s and -'s. One calibre that is over looked is 25, the Berger 115gr VLD in 25-06 makes for a SOLID 500 yard hunting tool! Then again, a 140gr gameking in 6.5x55 swede is potent med too! A 300 win mag with a 208gr amax is wicked out to nearly 1k! A good friend has a 7mmRem mag with a berger 180 or a 162 Amax makes for a nice game taker. There really are no One and Only One to rule them all... always a series of trade off's... how much recoil can you REALLY take..?
shoot well,
Diriel
@Wetzel,
BobinNC said it straight up, as usual. I will add though, JBM's smiplified ballistics calculator is fun to play with.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/
It is maintained by Bryal Litz. If you are willing to put in a couple hours to get to know the bullets and pull up Hodgdon.com and go to their free online reloading manual you can begin to see what various calibres at various muzzle velocities will do. You can even play with temp's, altitudes, and crosswinds. It has a lot of functionality built in. When you start playing with crosswinds and the various bullets, you can Really Begin to See a part of the "Story" unfold.
A good friend of mine is an Avid Hunter. He goes to various parts of the lower 48 to hunt on a regular basis. Rarely does he come back empty handed. That said, I taught him to reload for his 338 win, 270win, and 25-06rem. A bit later, I taught him how to set up his 338 so it didnt bloody him every other shot
Later on, he replaced the tasco with a much better mildot unit, and my .22Lr is happy again
Sorry to ramble on, some days I do that. I used to be a rabid foaming at the mouth reloader / shooter. At first, I went shooting so I could Reload. Later on, after many thousands of rounds down range, I finally started reloading so I could go shooting
I love the 6.5, but then I love 7mm, and 30cal. Each have their +'s and -'s. One calibre that is over looked is 25, the Berger 115gr VLD in 25-06 makes for a SOLID 500 yard hunting tool!
shoot well,
Diriel
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
lots of great info here, but only one post in all 5 pages on the 270? i wonder why? why is it not as popular in the long range crowd, as it is in the hunting crowd? midway says that it is the number one selling hunting cartridge in the u.s.a.. imo, it is an excellent choice for anything asked of it. i use 58.5 gr. of h4831 sc with a 130 gr. sst and it doesnt break 1000 lbs of energy till 900 yds. it flies at 3060 fps. i also am really enjoying my 7mm saum, but really have'nt done anything different than what the 270 has already done. i know the barrel life will be much longer on the 270 as well. anyone with more input on the 270? thanks
lots of great info here, but only one post in all 5 pages on the 270? i wonder why? why is it not as popular in the long range crowd, as it is in the hunting crowd? midway says that it is the number one selling hunting cartridge in the u.s.a.. imo, it is an excellent choice for anything asked of it. i use 58.5 gr. of h4831 sc with a 130 gr. sst and it doesnt break 1000 lbs of energy till 900 yds. it flies at 3060 fps. i also am really enjoying my 7mm saum, but really have'nt done anything different than what the 270 has already done. i know the barrel life will be much longer on the 270 as well. anyone with more input on the 270? thanks
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Great stuff.
I have a 6XC coming together, but still think that I will build my ultimate match gun as a 7-08. Pretty sure I can run 162 Amax's at 2800 if I get a 26" 1:8 cut rifled barrel and load 2.900-2.920" safely.
Looking at the numbers I like that better than 6's just because I'm not a fan of changing barrels all the time and will probably only run my 6 at around 2950.
If I run a good brake recoil management should be fine (staying on through followup in oddball positions is the biggest place I see the 6's having a lot of advantage in comp guns unless you run them just inside the 3100 most comps have been putting as a speed limit.
Great stuff.
I have a 6XC coming together, but still think that I will build my ultimate match gun as a 7-08. Pretty sure I can run 162 Amax's at 2800 if I get a 26" 1:8 cut rifled barrel and load 2.900-2.920" safely.
Looking at the numbers I like that better than 6's just because I'm not a fan of changing barrels all the time and will probably only run my 6 at around 2950.
If I run a good brake recoil management should be fine (staying on through followup in oddball positions is the biggest place I see the 6's having a lot of advantage in comp guns unless you run them just inside the 3100 most comps have been putting as a speed limit.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Great thread. Thanks to all who provided info.
Cheers,
Flatbush Harry
Great thread. Thanks to all who provided info.
Cheers,
Flatbush Harry
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
A massive thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread its been incredibly enlightening for a previous point and shoot kinda guy.
I hope to be able to add to this in the coming months as i experiment with my newly acquired 30-06
A massive thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread its been incredibly enlightening for a previous point and shoot kinda guy.
I hope to be able to add to this in the coming months as i experiment with my newly acquired 30-06
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Short Action Calibers, 308 bolt face</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">7x57, 8x57, 9x67, 9.3x57</span> </div></div>
The 6.5x55mm and 57mm cases will not fit into a Remington short action, which is why Remington put them in the long action 700 when they built the Classics in these rounds.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Short Action Calibers, 308 bolt face</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">7x57, 8x57, 9x67, 9.3x57</span> </div></div>
The 6.5x55mm and 57mm cases will not fit into a Remington short action, which is why Remington put them in the long action 700 when they built the Classics in these rounds.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
sorry if this ends up in the wrong place. fairly new to this whole computer thing. well i just purchased a savage model 116 .338 win mag. this gun has a stainless bbl and a synthetic stock. not many rounds thru it. but tried to research it on the web and couldnt find any info at all. there is an on/off compensator on it. pre accutrigger. any help finding info would be greatly appreciated
sorry if this ends up in the wrong place. fairly new to this whole computer thing. well i just purchased a savage model 116 .338 win mag. this gun has a stainless bbl and a synthetic stock. not many rounds thru it. but tried to research it on the web and couldnt find any info at all. there is an on/off compensator on it. pre accutrigger. any help finding info would be greatly appreciated
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
switched from savage 110 tactical in 7 mm rem mag. with bull barrel i was very surprised at the performance of that rifle 1.5 in. groups at 400 yds. buddy told me this savage 116 .338 win mag bear hunter could outperform the 7 mag. havent fired it yet. waitin on payday. any comments?
switched from savage 110 tactical in 7 mm rem mag. with bull barrel i was very surprised at the performance of that rifle 1.5 in. groups at 400 yds. buddy told me this savage 116 .338 win mag bear hunter could outperform the 7 mag. havent fired it yet. waitin on payday. any comments?
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, Are you sure 7x57, 257 Roberts and 6mm Rem (necked down from 7x57 case) are short action cartridges? 57mm seems longer than your avg short action receiver will fit. As a comparison, you have 6.5x55 listed under long action and it is 2mm shorter.</div></div>
Blue ridge,
Those three cartridges are stuffed into a short action by Remington. Winchester and Ruger put them in their standard long action. Savage doesn't chamber any of the three.
FWIW, the 6mm Rem isn't just a 7x57 necked down to 6mm. The case shoulders are moved forward to give a 26 deg. angle instead of the parent cartridge angle of 20 deg. Also, the shoulder is just the tiniest bit wider at .431" instead of .429"
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
Of course the Mauser action is just a bit shorter than the Rem, Win and Ruger long actions.</span> </div></div>
When and what model did Remington chamber a 6.5x55mm, 7x57mm, or 8x57mm in a factory short action other than a 40-X?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, Are you sure 7x57, 257 Roberts and 6mm Rem (necked down from 7x57 case) are short action cartridges? 57mm seems longer than your avg short action receiver will fit. As a comparison, you have 6.5x55 listed under long action and it is 2mm shorter.</div></div>
Blue ridge,
Those three cartridges are stuffed into a short action by Remington. Winchester and Ruger put them in their standard long action. Savage doesn't chamber any of the three.
FWIW, the 6mm Rem isn't just a 7x57 necked down to 6mm. The case shoulders are moved forward to give a 26 deg. angle instead of the parent cartridge angle of 20 deg. Also, the shoulder is just the tiniest bit wider at .431" instead of .429"
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
Of course the Mauser action is just a bit shorter than the Rem, Win and Ruger long actions.</span> </div></div>
When and what model did Remington chamber a 6.5x55mm, 7x57mm, or 8x57mm in a factory short action other than a 40-X?
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olympian</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, Are you sure 7x57, 257 Roberts and 6mm Rem (necked down from 7x57 case) are short action cartridges? 57mm seems longer than your avg short action receiver will fit. As a comparison, you have 6.5x55 listed under long action and it is 2mm shorter.</div></div>
Blue ridge,
Those three cartridges are stuffed into a short action by Remington. Winchester and Ruger put them in their standard long action. Savage doesn't chamber any of the three.
FWIW, the 6mm Rem isn't just a 7x57 necked down to 6mm. The case shoulders are moved forward to give a 26 deg. angle instead of the parent cartridge angle of 20 deg. Also, the shoulder is just the tiniest bit wider at .431" instead of .429"
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
Of course the Mauser action is just a bit shorter than the Rem, Win and Ruger long actions.</span> </div></div>
When and what model did Remington chamber a 6.5x55mm, 7x57mm, or 8x57mm in a factory short action other than a 40-X? </div></div>
The 600 SA was reported to have been chambered in 7x57. It's been around and around, I've clearly said "these don't fit well but it's been done" so I won't change the comment. I have before and then I get 2-3 PM's from someone who has a factory, roll stamped rifle chambered in one of them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olympian</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, Are you sure 7x57, 257 Roberts and 6mm Rem (necked down from 7x57 case) are short action cartridges? 57mm seems longer than your avg short action receiver will fit. As a comparison, you have 6.5x55 listed under long action and it is 2mm shorter.</div></div>
Blue ridge,
Those three cartridges are stuffed into a short action by Remington. Winchester and Ruger put them in their standard long action. Savage doesn't chamber any of the three.
FWIW, the 6mm Rem isn't just a 7x57 necked down to 6mm. The case shoulders are moved forward to give a 26 deg. angle instead of the parent cartridge angle of 20 deg. Also, the shoulder is just the tiniest bit wider at .431" instead of .429"
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
Of course the Mauser action is just a bit shorter than the Rem, Win and Ruger long actions.</span> </div></div>
When and what model did Remington chamber a 6.5x55mm, 7x57mm, or 8x57mm in a factory short action other than a 40-X? </div></div>
The 600 SA was reported to have been chambered in 7x57. It's been around and around, I've clearly said "these don't fit well but it's been done" so I won't change the comment. I have before and then I get 2-3 PM's from someone who has a factory, roll stamped rifle chambered in one of them.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
My very first rifle way back in 1969 was a 6mm Remington (model 700 BDL <span style="font-style: italic">long action</span>). It has accounted for deer, rock chucks, bob cats, coyotes, hundreds of rabbits, hundreds of pot guts and still shoots a tight group.
My very first rifle way back in 1969 was a 6mm Remington (model 700 BDL <span style="font-style: italic">long action</span>). It has accounted for deer, rock chucks, bob cats, coyotes, hundreds of rabbits, hundreds of pot guts and still shoots a tight group.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrbigtexan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lots of great info here, but only one post in all 5 pages on the 270? i wonder why? why is it not as popular in the long range crowd, as it is in the hunting crowd? midway says that it is the number one selling hunting cartridge in the u.s.a.. imo, it is an excellent choice for anything asked of it. i use 58.5 gr. of h4831 sc with a 130 gr. sst and it doesnt break 1000 lbs of energy till 900 yds. it flies at 3060 fps. i also am really enjoying my 7mm saum, but really have'nt done anything different than what the 270 has already done. i know the barrel life will be much longer on the 270 as well. anyone with more input on the 270? thanks </div></div>
...talk aboot the sound of crickets, eh...???...
...usually something is said aboot there being no proper bullets available for the .270 and the issue is dropped...
...methinks the fact that it was never any sort of military number also hurts it's popularity in this crowd...
(...imho, another round that suffers in this regard is the excellent and much ignored 6.5 x 57 Mauser...)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrbigtexan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lots of great info here, but only one post in all 5 pages on the 270? i wonder why? why is it not as popular in the long range crowd, as it is in the hunting crowd? midway says that it is the number one selling hunting cartridge in the u.s.a.. imo, it is an excellent choice for anything asked of it. i use 58.5 gr. of h4831 sc with a 130 gr. sst and it doesnt break 1000 lbs of energy till 900 yds. it flies at 3060 fps. i also am really enjoying my 7mm saum, but really have'nt done anything different than what the 270 has already done. i know the barrel life will be much longer on the 270 as well. anyone with more input on the 270? thanks </div></div>
...talk aboot the sound of crickets, eh...???...
...usually something is said aboot there being no proper bullets available for the .270 and the issue is dropped...
...methinks the fact that it was never any sort of military number also hurts it's popularity in this crowd...
(...imho, another round that suffers in this regard is the excellent and much ignored 6.5 x 57 Mauser...)
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
...usually something is said aboot there being no proper bullets available for the .270 and the issue is dropped...
on paper it should be great but...
heavy barrel 270 with a solid stock - where?
match quality ammo available - where?
so I can make a custom job and reload, but why bother and will I get a decent resale?
My alternative was to buy a 308 sako varmint and I can get in the game with a half moa rifle for not many bucks and go from there.
I had a 308 and a 270. The 270 went as the 308 was more accurate, easier to reload, cheaper blah blah blah. If I wanted a 'better' calibre it is easier to go to 260, 708 etc.
...usually something is said aboot there being no proper bullets available for the .270 and the issue is dropped...
on paper it should be great but...
heavy barrel 270 with a solid stock - where?
match quality ammo available - where?
so I can make a custom job and reload, but why bother and will I get a decent resale?
My alternative was to buy a 308 sako varmint and I can get in the game with a half moa rifle for not many bucks and go from there.
I had a 308 and a 270. The 270 went as the 308 was more accurate, easier to reload, cheaper blah blah blah. If I wanted a 'better' calibre it is easier to go to 260, 708 etc.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<span style="font-weight: bold">6.5x55 mm Swedish Mauser
</span>
Since somebody asked I'll try to do one on the 6.5x55 Swede. I'm from Sweden but i think i have a decent understanding of how things are in the states.
Pros
- Excellent bullets for long range shooting and hunting
- Useful for hunting of varmints to large thin skinned species, more so than the .260 with the availability (and acceptable velocity) of 160 gr bullets
- Low recoil
- Decent barrel life, approx 3000 rds
- Demands handloading for best velocity
- Velocity close to .260 with max (but not overly hot) handloads, eg 2750 fps with 140 grain
- Wide range of powder choices with high velocities
- Supersonic out to approx 1300 meter at zero alt
- Lapua brass available, Norma also very consistent
- Easy to load for
Cons
- Normally chambered in long action, needed to utilize heaviest bullets
- Factory loads loaded low because of the availability of older 98-style actions that can't take high pressures
- Low availability of second hand brass
- Rifle availability is limited
<span style="font-weight: bold">6.5x55 mm Swedish Mauser
</span>
Since somebody asked I'll try to do one on the 6.5x55 Swede. I'm from Sweden but i think i have a decent understanding of how things are in the states.
Pros
- Excellent bullets for long range shooting and hunting
- Useful for hunting of varmints to large thin skinned species, more so than the .260 with the availability (and acceptable velocity) of 160 gr bullets
- Low recoil
- Decent barrel life, approx 3000 rds
- Demands handloading for best velocity
- Velocity close to .260 with max (but not overly hot) handloads, eg 2750 fps with 140 grain
- Wide range of powder choices with high velocities
- Supersonic out to approx 1300 meter at zero alt
- Lapua brass available, Norma also very consistent
- Easy to load for
Cons
- Normally chambered in long action, needed to utilize heaviest bullets
- Factory loads loaded low because of the availability of older 98-style actions that can't take high pressures
- Low availability of second hand brass
- Rifle availability is limited
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brunop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bullets are you shooting in the .308 now?</div></div>
Various
208 AMax with RL17 is great, but I scared myself when I read Brian Litz's book as I am not sure it is stable under all conditions that I shoot in. I shoot with a can. I had visions of it heading off down range....
I have a load for 155 Scenars which I also like.
One of the issues I have is that if I load to mag length I have to jump, so I wondered whether I should us 2156 SMK as it is a tangent ogive. May be over thinking it. I have taken to stuffing a 150gr BT onto my Scenar load when I go hunting. I should probably just single load the Scenars
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brunop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bullets are you shooting in the .308 now?</div></div>
Various
208 AMax with RL17 is great, but I scared myself when I read Brian Litz's book as I am not sure it is stable under all conditions that I shoot in. I shoot with a can. I had visions of it heading off down range....
I have a load for 155 Scenars which I also like.
One of the issues I have is that if I load to mag length I have to jump, so I wondered whether I should us 2156 SMK as it is a tangent ogive. May be over thinking it. I have taken to stuffing a 150gr BT onto my Scenar load when I go hunting. I should probably just single load the Scenars
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
I am interested in the 6.5x55 round and wonder in a modern Remington 700 action, what would be a reasonable target velocity with 142 SMK bullets and a 26" barrel. I am not looking to set records, but would like to wring out as much as I can for long range steel targets. I would work up to this load and I am partial to 4831Sc as a powder for this load. Comments welcome. I do not want to hassel with the AI option.
I am interested in the 6.5x55 round and wonder in a modern Remington 700 action, what would be a reasonable target velocity with 142 SMK bullets and a 26" barrel. I am not looking to set records, but would like to wring out as much as I can for long range steel targets. I would work up to this load and I am partial to 4831Sc as a powder for this load. Comments welcome. I do not want to hassel with the AI option.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CaptainH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am interested in the 6.5x55 round and wonder in a modern Remington 700 action, what would be a reasonable target velocity with 142 SMK bullets and a 26" barrel. I am not looking to set records, but would like to wring out as much as I can for long range steel targets. I would work up to this load and I am partial to 4831Sc as a powder for this load. Comments welcome. I do not want to hassel with the AI option. </div></div>
I share your exact interest in this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CaptainH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am interested in the 6.5x55 round and wonder in a modern Remington 700 action, what would be a reasonable target velocity with 142 SMK bullets and a 26" barrel. I am not looking to set records, but would like to wring out as much as I can for long range steel targets. I would work up to this load and I am partial to 4831Sc as a powder for this load. Comments welcome. I do not want to hassel with the AI option. </div></div>
I share your exact interest in this.
Re: Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications
Great stuff!!! Keep it going!!!
Great stuff!!! Keep it going!!!
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