Calling the carnivores among us

[OkieMike]

Our ancestors are fruits, nuts, and berries... When they were available... and in season.

Honey was rare and highly prized until the last couple hundred years. Now it's a basic commodity.

We really take for granted having the choices we do when it comes to eating. Most everything we could ever want is right on the shelves, year round

Eating roots and meat 8 months out of the year must have been a bit boring... Lack of choice alone probably kept our ancient ancestors from overeating.

Mike

 

[E. Bryant]

I suspect that for 200,000 years humans ate 70% meat, 20% fruit and vegetables, and no more than 10% carbs.

Totally false - there are many, many examples of indigenous diets that were predominantly carbohydrate. The difference between this and the modern diet is that these carbs were not processed to be overly palatable and that sufficient physical occurred to ensure that excess calories could not be consumed.

Carbs are not bad. Excess carbs can be bad, as can any excess calories. Overly processed carbs can be bad, as can be overly processed food of any type. There are plenty of very healthy people who eat a large amount of carbohydrate, but they're not the type who lift weights for 45 minutes (burning a whopping 250-300 calories) and then mow down on everything in sight.

Restrictions are typically necessary for maintaining weight in modern society, and restricting a particular macronutrient works reasonably well for those not engaged in regular anaerobic activities. Just don't make the huge mistake of thinking this is the only way, or that carb-heavy diets are an invention of the 20th century.

 

[Father O’blivion]

Totally false - there are many, many examples of indigenous diets that were predominantly carbohydrate. The difference between this and the modern diet is that these carbs were not processed to be overly palatable and that sufficient physical occurred to ensure that excess calories could not be consumed.

Carbs are not bad. Excess carbs can be bad, as can any excess calories. Overly processed carbs can be bad, as can be overly processed food of any type. There are plenty of very healthy people who eat a large amount of carbohydrate, but they're not the type who lift weights for 45 minutes (burning a whopping 250-300 calories) and then mow down on everything in sight.

Restrictions are typically necessary for maintaining weight in modern society, and restricting a particular macronutrient works reasonably well for those not engaged in regular anaerobic activities. Just don't make the huge mistake of thinking this is the only way, or that carb-heavy diets are an invention of the 20th century.

A recent study showed the worst situations is a combo of too many carbs and fats. Together they make it even harder for your body to process, compared to an over abundance of just one or the other.

 

[wade2big]

Totally false - there are many, many examples of indigenous diets that were predominantly carbohydrate. The difference between this and the modern diet is that these carbs were not processed to be overly palatable and that sufficient physical occurred to ensure that excess calories could not be consumed.

Carbs are not bad. Excess carbs can be bad, as can any excess calories. Overly processed carbs can be bad, as can be overly processed food of any type. There are plenty of very healthy people who eat a large amount of carbohydrate, but they're not the type who lift weights for 45 minutes (burning a whopping 250-300 calories) and then mow down on everything in sight.

Restrictions are typically necessary for maintaining weight in modern society, and restricting a particular macronutrient works reasonably well for those not engaged in regular anaerobic activities. Just don't make the huge mistake of thinking this is the only way, or that carb-heavy diets are an invention of the 20th century.

I agree with your assertions other than the one of restricting a particular macronutrient being a drawback to those that work out or work anaerobically. Calories itself dictate the performance here more than anything else. Higher fat or higher carb diet for most people. Pick one and be consistent. The insanely active can do both at the same time.

I was a machine for years eating nothing but meats, cheeses, and eggs, and some (very little) green and colorful vegetables. I let myself regress around 2020. I’m back in the saddle now and looking and feeling good again although not to the same level as I was and doubt I get all the way there but I’ll be close enough soon enough. Don’t know if I have the will to work out to the same extent as I once did.

 

[Pharmseller]

You’re not the man you used to be!

Hell, neither is that guy.




P

 

[shields shtr]

I think if most people stuck to meat and vegetables and then some type of carb (fruit, oatmeal, etc) to maintain energy for exercise they would be better off than 99% of people out there. I did the paleo diet for a long time and had great success with it.

I travel alot for work though and it can be difficult to maintain. Processed foods and sugars are probably the biggest enemy, but they are convenient and that is why we live in a nation of fatties.

 

[The D]

Oatmeal is not a good carb to eat. It’s full of phytic acid that hinders your body’s ability to absorb nutrients.

 

[E. Bryant]

A recent study showed the worst situations is a combo of too many carbs and fats. Together they make it even harder for your body to process, compared to an over abundance of just one or the other.

Somewhat/largely correct - the body will have a preference for one of those two based upon a number of factors, the most significant being the individual's typical metabolic rate of exertion during physical activity. Someone who is either undertrained or training incorrectly (too little low-level aerobic work) blows right past the oxidative aerobic zone in which fat can be burned and into the glycolytic anaerobic zone in which carbohydrate is the primary energy source. This in turn creates the constant demand for carbohydrate, and fat goes unused as fuel so it's just stored. Let go long enough, this turns into metabolic syndrome and then T2 diabetes.

Avoiding this situation is how we get to advice to move for 30 minutes or get 10,000 steps daily comes in - that's the right level of exertion to create demand for the oxidative (fat-burning) metabolic path. (Doing this work for even longer is better.) Combine that with avoidance of excess carbohydrate, and things are generally going to work out OK. Being sedentary *or* overdoing it with HIIT/anaerobic is bad news.

 

[BLEE]

This Liver King would not agree with you, but then again, he was outed as a fake....

View attachment 8334009

https://nypost.com/2022/11/30/liver-king-ripped-after-leaked-email-claims-11k-a-month-steroid-use/

Eating that much liver is a sure way to get vitamin A and/or heavy metal poisoning.

 

[Father O’blivion]

Eating that much liver is a sure way to get vitamin A and/or heavy metal poisoning.

The copious steroid use was probably a bigger danger.

 

[BLEE]

The copious steroid use was probably a bigger danger.

From the article, I believe it was HGH.

 

[Lug Nut]

Lots of good info in this thread.

 

[nikonNUT]

Well, I'm gonna give this a try! Boss man has a little contest going at work and the biggest loser (by percentage) gets $1000.00 cash. Get healthy and get some new pew pew parts iff'n I win? Deal! May have some stupid questions. Watch this space!

 

[CaseFinder]

Well, I'm gonna give this a try! Boss man has a little contest going at work and the biggest loser (by percentage) get $1000.00 cash. Get healthy and get some new pew pew parts iff'n I win? Deal! May have some stupid questions. Watch this space!

Wish more bosses would do that!

 

[nikonNUT]

Wish more bosses would do that!

RIght? Win or lose it's a good nudge in the right direction as I start my trip through my 50s. Worse case... I drop weight, lower my BP, and just feel better in general. Aiming for 225 pounds (65 pound loss). Got 3 months in the "competition".

 

[Dave62677]

I lost over 50 lbs and my gouts were gone. I only eat 1 meal a day. U don’t need to go full carnivore mode. Just eat food without industrial processing. Read the ingredients and if you don’t know whats that stuff in there, skip it.

Search for inflammatory food list and skip its out from your diet. (Non processed red meat is not inflammatory to our body)

 

[JRaven]

There is some interesting literature out that points to excess linoleic acid being the cause of diabetes(it damages the way mitochondria operate in cells) and excess sugar just making it worse.

I have only kinda heard that argument from the IG carnivore dogma crowd. Same crowd that is afraid of vegetables, ie Paul Saladino. For clarity, I have been proponent of a high protein diet, from ruminants and pigs, since I stumbled upon Mauro Di Pasquale and Vince Gironda in the mid 90s when trying to put on muscle in college. A psychiatrist building a platform around killer vegetables and evil fiber is wild.

I have yet to see T2D directly related to excessive seed oils - so you would have to forward me some links that would be rad.

At the end of the day, the healthiest people on the planet can eat the more diverse diet - this is an element of metabolic flexibility and a diverse gut biome. With that said, if you have an autoimmune issue or gut problems and the only food you can digest without issue is red meat, eat away. I get uneasy when healthy people autoselect a highly restrictive diet because it is trendy or looks cool then they justify it with dogma and sketchy science.

If you want to eat steak for every meal, eat steak for every meal and just smile. I have eaten a least one steak a day since I was 18 years old and am just as excited to eat the one tonight as I was last week or last year.

The most nutrient dense diet you can eat is pretty close to the paleo diet first discussed by Art Devany, Loren Cordain, Michael Rose, Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson.

Which looks surprisingly similiar to the diet that Paul Saladino is promoting with red meat, organs, fruit, berries, honey....just some nuts and seeds, roots, tubers and bulbs and vegetables and you have the most nutrient dense diet on the planet that promotes longevity.

 

[JRaven]

I suspect that for 200,000 years humans ate 70% meat, 20% fruit and vegetables, and no more than 10% carbs.

Humans are opportunist omnivores.

Diets of modern hunter-gatherers vary substantially in their carbohydrate content depending on ecoenvironments: results from an ethnographic analysis - PubMed

In the past, attempts have been made to estimate the carbohydrate contents of preagricultural human diets. Those estimations have primarily been based on interpretations of ethnographic data of modern hunter-gatherers. In this study, it was hypothesized that diets of modern hunter-gatherers vary...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That is why you see healthy people in the arctic circle, Innuits, eating a diet almost exclusively of whale and seal fat & whale and seal meat. Down to the Maasai in Africa eating a diet of meat, blood, milk, honey, tree bark, roots and tubers.

The one thing you dont find is a healthy groups of humans that are vegans. Every hunter gatherer tribe that Weston Price examined eat a diet consisting of meat and animals products. Some groups ate more carbs based on what was available to them based on location and climate.

There are factors far beyond their macro nutrient ratios that allowed them to be healthy.

 

[JRaven]

I lost over 50 lbs and my gouts were gone. I only eat 1 meal a day. U don’t need to go full carnivore mode. Just eat food without industrial processing. Read the ingredients and if you don’t know whats that stuff in there, skip it.

Search for inflammatory food list and skip its out from your diet.

Congrats on losing 50 pounds. Hard to over eat on one meal a day. At the end of the day, whether you believe in "calories in/calories out" or not, if you eat less and move more you the scale needle will move in the right direction.

 

[Father O’blivion]

RIght? Win or lose it's a good nudge in the right direction as I start my trip through my 50s. Worse case... I drop weight, lower my BP, and just feel better in general. Aiming for 225 pounds (65 pound loss). Got 3 months in the "competition".

Good luck. 65 lbs in 3 months is pretty aggressive but it’s good to have goals.

 

[Dave62677]

Just find a diet that work right for you . Don’t change it dramatically otherwise you will be back to the unhealthy lifestyle. Calories in and calories out is correct , but a lot of people over look how industrial processed food cause inflammation into our body. Your body will get enough calories but also get a lot inflammation inside. A lot of time inflammation signs are joint pains, gouts , skin rashes, tiredness …. Etc.

Eat the correct food that doesn’t cause inflammatory to the body. you will less likely to get sick or cancers. My best buddy from high-school just got stage 4 colon cancer and he always eat McDonald and chip and sugary junk food. He is not overweight at all. He just turn 45.

Avoid process food as much as you can and don’t over eat. You body will slim down naturally.

 

[The D]

I have only kinda heard that argument from the IG carnivore dogma crowd. Same crowd that is afraid of vegetables, ie Paul Saladino. For clarity, I have been proponent of a high protein diet, from ruminants and pigs, since I stumbled upon Mauro Di Pasquale and Vince Gironda in the mid 90s when trying to put on muscle in college. A psychiatrist building a platform around killer vegetables and evil fiber is wild.

I have yet to see T2D directly related to excessive seed oils - so you would have to forward me some links that would be rad.

At the end of the day, the healthiest people on the planet can eat the more diverse diet - this is an element of metabolic flexibility and a diverse gut biome. With that said, if you have an autoimmune issue or gut problems and the only food you can digest without issue is red meat, eat away. I get uneasy when healthy people autoselect a highly restrictive diet because it is trendy or looks cool then they justify it with dogma and sketchy science.

If you want to eat steak for every meal, eat steak for every meal and just smile. I have eaten a least one steak a day since I was 18 years old and am just as excited to eat the one tonight as I was last week or last year.

The most nutrient dense diet you can eat is pretty close to the paleo diet first discussed by Art Devany, Loren Cordain, Michael Rose, Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson.

Which looks surprisingly similiar to the diet that Paul Saladino is promoting with red meat, organs, fruit, berries, honey....just some nuts and seeds, roots, tubers and bulbs and vegetables and you have the most nutrient dense diet on the planet that promotes longevity.

Here’s one article with some references that I have open in another tab. This guy is definitely not a fan of keto/carnivore or fasting. Rather he’s a proponent of equal parts protein/fat and eating plenty of carbs(sounds like he prefers fruit/honey/white rice) to promote mitochondrial function.

It All Comes Down To Energy

Modern biology centers around a reductionist, mechanical view of the human body that permeates both conventional and alternative medicine. Each bodily system is considered to be separate and indepe…

www.jayfeldmanwellness.com

And here’s another good article

The Cause of Metabolic Syndrome: Excess Omega-6 Fats (Linoleic Acid) in Your Mitochondria

What can excess seed oils do to your metabolism?

tuckergoodrich.substack.com

And if you’re really up for it, these two sites go pretty in depth on how bad seed oils(more specifically, polyunsaturated fatty acids) are

Fire In A Bottle

Metabolic Enhancement Shop & Blog

fireinabottle.net

Hyperlipid

You need to get calories from somewhere, should it be from carbohydrate or fat?

high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com

I know Paul Saladino has talked about it several times but I’m not sure where the info is on his site.

The catchy headlines about vegetables killing you or being dangerous are only to get your attention. The real substance of the argument is that plants contain defense chemicals(because they can’t run away or kick you in the head) to protect themselves. Some people aren’t bothered by them so much while others get harmed significantly (most recently famous are Jordan and Mikaila Peterson). The only part of a plant that they want eaten is the fruit, that's how they procreate. Any other parts that get eaten will potentially stop them from being able to continue that.

If someone can eat salads or handfuls of nuts or legumes without side effects, and they enjoy these foods then keep enjoying how you eat. But they aren’t nutritionally necessary. There’s nothing in veggies that you can’t get from the animal based diet that Paul Saladino talks about. But, there are things in veggies that can cause some problems that aren’t in animal products/fruit

 

[Emerson0311]

Perhaps, I didn't ask him what meat he was eating.

I did keto a few years back and had zero issues with constipation... But it took me a week of having to eat every 2 hours to zero in on the fat thing... I could eat a prime rib for breakfast and spend the entire day building fence and not get the shakes... And the "hungry" feeling was just a weird hollow feeling. No shakes, no stomach growling/aching... Just my body telling me it was ready for some sustenance.

Energy level and clarity of thought was absolutely amazing.

Mike

I use heavy cream and cheese to get the fat. My hunger is like yours now. Before I would be falling apart if I didn’t eat every 5-6 hours.

 

[EddieNFL]

The Eubie Blake Diet​

If the great composer-pianist, Eubie Blake, were still alive he would be 122. He just might have brought it off. As things stand, living to five days past his 100th birthday on Feb. 7, 1983, he didn't fare so badly in the longevity department. An especially stupendous achievement considering that Blake's daily regimen consisted almost exclusively of 7-Up, whiskey, meat, chocolate and cigarettes. And he was performing almost right up to the end of his life.

 

[BLEE]

Many of these metabolic syndromes aren't caused by what we eat, but by our metabolism failing to process food, like it used to. The workaround to these syndromes, is avoiding those foods that cause trouble, but that doesn't fix the metabolic syndrome. Humans, as opportunistic omnivores, can digest and utilize many nutrition sources, when all is working, properly. It's wise to eat, smart, but the food isn't always the issue. I know people, who can consume 200 grams of carbs, per day and not get fat, whereas, others blow up like a balloon. Good metabolic function AND calorie burn make huge differences. I think most people's metabolic issues would disappear, if they performed light to moderate calisthenics, walked 2-4 miles/day and reduced starchy carbohydrate intake, until they got down to 15%, or less body fat for men and 25%, or less body fat for women. It really doesn't take much to maintain good health, barring any genetic predispositions. It's rough trying to get your health back, after middle age and health issues set in.

 

[E. Bryant]

I agree with your assertions other than the one of restricting a particular macronutrient being a drawback to those that work out or work anaerobically. Calories itself dictate the performance here more than anything else. Higher fat or higher carb diet for most people. Pick one and be consistent. The insanely active can do both at the same time.

I was a machine for years eating nothing but meats, cheeses, and eggs, and some (very little) green and colorful vegetables. I let myself regress around 2020. I’m back in the saddle now and looking and feeling good again although not to the same level as I was and doubt I get all the way there but I’ll be close enough soon enough. Don’t know if I have the will to work out to the same extent as I once did.

Wade, I appreciate you jumping into the discussion.

When I speak of anaerobic exercise, I'm speaking of operation primarily in the glycolytic mode - heavy exertion for more than 15 sec but typically less than 20 minutes. This could be encountered by hiking or biking through rolling terrain, sprint or interval training, CrossFit stuff, whatever - things that are going to leave you huffing and puffing for air. Lifting heavy weights typically doesn't involve this system unless you're going for high reps or doing supersets. (Sets of 6-8 reps only involve about 15-20 seconds of muscle contraction.)

Fueling this type of work generally involves glucose (sugar) and lots of it - generally more than can be digested by the gut in real-time during the effort. The more adapted that one is to this type of work and/or to eating carbohydrate, the more glucose that is stored in the liver and muscles. Your typically skinny-ass triathlete can store maybe 200 grams of glucose and then consume another 50 grams/hour during exercise - enough to provide a substantial amount of extra work above and beyond what can be sustained via aerobic (oxidative) metabolism.

Those who are in true ketosis or just in gluconeogenesis from metabolizing excess protein don't have a large volume of the necessary fuel to repeatedly perform this type of work. That's generally not a problem, since most people aren't doing back-to-back 1-mile sprints or trying to survive several 10-minute Tactical Games "skirmishes". Those that are trying to perform at a high level in those sort of activities are probably going to end up following some sort of "targeted carb" diet where they consume carbohydrate immediately before the activity, with the idea that this will go straight to the muscles during the activity (probably a good assumption).

The real flex is to increase aerobic output so that less anaerobic output is required. I know of some cyclists who consume a low-carb diet and they can maintain a pretty strong pace all day long. I'm not there with my aerobic conditioning.

Glad to hear that you're back at it. One of the things that keeps me going is knowing that I'm (hopefully) improving my chances of not just surviving long enough to see my kids grow up, but actually being able to participate in physical activity with them. A good buddy of mine is really enjoying his time with his grown children who are active outdoorsmen, and he's able to do so because he's been able to stay in shape. That, and there's nothing wrong with taking a bit of pride in one's physical appearance and capabilities. Go get after it, and if age starts to get in the way a bit, well that's just part of having survived this long.

 

[JRaven]

The catchy headlines about vegetables killing you or being dangerous are only to get your attention. The real substance of the argument is that plants contain defense chemicals(because they can’t run away or kick you in the head) to protect themselves. Some people aren’t bothered by them so much while others get harmed significantly (most recently famous are Jordan and Mikaila Peterson). The only part of a plant that they want eaten is the fruit, that's how they procreate. Any other parts that get eaten will potentially stop them from being able to continue that.

If someone can eat salads or handfuls of nuts or legumes without side effects, and they enjoy these foods then keep enjoying how you eat. But they aren’t nutritionally necessary. There’s nothing in veggies that you can’t get from the animal based diet that Paul Saladino talks about. But, there are things in veggies that can cause some problems that aren’t in animal products/fruit

That is why you eat your vegetables cooked. Once you heat the vegetables the bioavailability dramatically increases.

If you are so fragile that a salad or handful of nuts causes side effects we have bigger issues. Like I said, the greatest marker of health is being about to eat the most diverse diet.

You don't know what is nutritionally necessary unless you get your micronutrients tested and see where your deficiencies lie. We have decades of research that support eating vegetables, especially cruciferous vegetables, dramatically increases health and lowers risks of all cause mortality.

Lets workshop this - the year is 2022/23 and a psychiatrist who nevers wears a shirt is yelling about vegetables potentially killing you while selling a primal supplement line owned and created by a rich eccentric guy calling himself the Liver King. If vegetables were as dangerous as he says, I think someone else might have mentioned it before. There are decades of research that support eating a diet that includes vegetables.

Now if you don't want to eat your vegetables as some thumbing of the nose to your mom who made you eat them as a kid, then dont eat them.

 

[Pharmseller]

P

 

[oneshot86]

Wade, I appreciate you jumping into the discussion.

When I speak of anaerobic exercise, I'm speaking of operation primarily in the glycolytic mode - heavy exertion for more than 15 sec but typically less than 20 minutes. This could be encountered by hiking or biking through rolling terrain, sprint or interval training, CrossFit stuff, whatever - things that are going to leave you huffing and puffing for air. Lifting heavy weights typically doesn't involve this system unless you're going for high reps or doing supersets. (Sets of 6-8 reps only involve about 15-20 seconds of muscle contraction.)

Fueling this type of work generally involves glucose (sugar) and lots of it - generally more than can be digested by the gut in real-time during the effort. The more adapted that one is to this type of work and/or to eating carbohydrate, the more glucose that is stored in the liver and muscles. Your typically skinny-ass triathlete can store maybe 200 grams of glucose and then consume another 50 grams/hour during exercise - enough to provide a substantial amount of extra work above and beyond what can be sustained via aerobic (oxidative) metabolism.

Those who are in true ketosis or just in gluconeogenesis from metabolizing excess protein don't have a large volume of the necessary fuel to repeatedly perform this type of work. That's generally not a problem, since most people aren't doing back-to-back 1-mile sprints or trying to survive several 10-minute Tactical Games "skirmishes". Those that are trying to perform at a high level in those sort of activities are probably going to end up following some sort of "targeted carb" diet where they consume carbohydrate immediately before the activity, with the idea that this will go straight to the muscles during the activity (probably a good assumption).

The real flex is to increase aerobic output so that less anaerobic output is required. I know of some cyclists who consume a low-carb diet and they can maintain a pretty strong pace all day long. I'm not there with my aerobic conditioning.

Glad to hear that you're back at it. One of the things that keeps me going is knowing that I'm (hopefully) improving my chances of not just surviving long enough to see my kids grow up, but actually being able to participate in physical activity with them. A good buddy of mine is really enjoying his time with his grown children who are active outdoorsmen, and he's able to do so because he's been able to stay in shape. That, and there's nothing wrong with taking a bit of pride in one's physical appearance and capabilities. Go get after it, and if age starts to get in the way a bit, well that's just part of having survived this long.

Great post man

 

[The D]

That is why you eat your vegetables cooked. Once you heat the vegetables the bioavailability dramatically increases.

If you are so fragile that a salad or handful of nuts causes side effects we have bigger issues. Like I said, the greatest marker of health is being about to eat the most diverse diet.

You don't know what is nutritionally necessary unless you get your micronutrients tested and see where your deficiencies lie. We have decades of research that support eating vegetables, especially cruciferous vegetables, dramatically increases health and lowers risks of all cause mortality.

Lets workshop this - the year is 2022/23 and a psychiatrist who nevers wears a shirt is yelling about vegetables potentially killing you while selling a primal supplement line owned and created by a rich eccentric guy calling himself the Liver King. If vegetables were as dangerous as he says, I think someone else might have mentioned it before. There are decades of research that support eating a diet that includes vegetables.

Now if you don't want to eat your vegetables as some thumbing of the nose to your mom who made you eat them as a kid, then dont eat them.

Whatever your purpose with this screed was supposed to be, it’s having the opposite effect. I’ll be eating a giant chunk of a tomahawk ribeye for breakfast.

 

[The D]

Just whipped up an amazing breakfast.

And here’s the recipe

Keto Frittata with Bacon and Brie

Practically carb-free, you can serve this easy keto frittata for breakfast, brunch, or dinner! Flavorful and hearty, it takes only 25 minutes to make from start to finish.

alldayidreamaboutfood.com