Can someone help me determine why my new build is giving me large groups?

[Long Range]

I'm somewhat new to this long range shooting. I did shoot a PSA 16" ar15 using this same scope and mount and I believe my groups were very close.

I built an ar15 rifle with a Faxon 16" pencil barrel. LaRue MBT 2s trigger
Barrel link: https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-16-pencil-profile-ar15-barrel-5-56-nato-nitrided/
Steiner 4x optic.
AMMO is Lake City 5.56mm NATO XM193 Ammo 55 Grain
Ammo Link: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tar...metal-jacket-1000-rounds-m193bk-p-110074.aspx
Using sand bags to help stabilize rifle.


I re torqued the scope bolts, The barrel nut was torqued to around 60 ft lbs. , I ran many patches down the barrel and then a clean patch.
Definitely holding rifle at center of target at 50 yards.

At 50 yards here are 3 of my groupings, I shot 2x at each target. Something just seems off and groups seem really large.

Are these definitely bad groupings at 50 yards and is my barrel most likely the issue?
How would you deal with this issue and can I return this barrel to Faxon?

Thanks for any advice on dealing with this issue,.

50 yards, each box is a square inch.

 

[nn8734]

Kinda Wish you would have shot at least three per group but either way that’s a huge amount of dispersion.

Disassemble, reassemble checking everything over thoroughly. Once the barrel is off again, inspect the chamber, throat area and muzzle for anything unusual (You prob won’t find anything but it’s worth a close look just in case). Also check to ensure the gas block isn’t making contact with the hand guard or nothing is loose anywhere.

Once reassembled, Shoot a few three shot groups and see what happens. If it still behaves that way, and you have ruled other causes out, I’d call Faxon about it and see what they will do for you.

When benched or prone with a rear rest and Bipod My DD Mk18 shoots less than an inch with 5 shots using an Eotech and magnifier with IMI XM193 ammo at 50 yards, which is similar to your ammo.

 

[HiDesertELR]

Could be lots of things... Shoot five shot groups minimum, use a few different types (match grade) ammo, report back.

 

[JS8588]

That ammo plus a late production Faxon barrel...

 

[whatsupdoc]

At 50 yards that is bad. Let a good AR15 shooter try the rifle first before anything else.

 

[mheimer_45]

Step 1. Get better barrel. I used a faxon pencil once. Never again

step 2. Get better ammo

 

[chongoMT]

A lot of complicated variables when these gremlins show up, went through something similar with a buddies budget build. It was the bolt head that was the culprit, could also be the flash hider or the tightness of the larue mount on the receiver. Either rebuild everything and hope or try 1 decisive action at a time and learn. Yes, it will cost you some 5 rd groups and time, but you are paying into the education at this point. Oh, another variable, you the shooter. Try not to go into your next range session with self-fulfilling prophecy of it shooting like shit and lacking confidence in the system.

 

[BBVDD]

I think it’s the barrel to be honest.

I have one in 6.5 grendel and trying to find a load in that gun is an exercise in futility.
Best group I’ve been able to get is around 3-4” at 100yds.

ETA:
So this that I posted this morning...

I take it back. I take it all back.
I was actually looking at buying a new barrel this morning because i had not been able to get groupings that I thought I should have been able to achieve with this barrel and gun. I went to the range this morning with some new bullets.

to back up, I had been trying to work up a load on this gun with 120 gr Barnes TSX. Best I've ever gotten is around 3-4" at 100 yds and was getting frustrated.

This past week I bought some 120 gr Nosler ballistic tips to try as a last ditch effort.

I went to the range with 20 round (2 10 round test) to run a ladder on the barnes with a different powder and 18 (2 9 round test) with the nosler.

The barnes again disappointed 4-5" taking my time (I know I was running a ladder but at 100yds it shouldn't be that bad).
the Nosler however was great. I ran two groups. Each was sub MOA. Gotta play with my numbers now and see what I come up with.

 

[Gustav7]

I'm somewhat new to this long range shooting. I did shoot a PSA 16" ar15 using this same scope and mount and I believe my groups were very close.

I built an ar15 rifle with a Faxon 16" pencil barrel. LaRue MBT 2s trigger
Barrel link: https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-16-pencil-profile-ar15-barrel-5-56-nato-nitrided/
Steiner 4x optic.
AMMO is Lake City 5.56mm NATO XM193 Ammo 55 Grain
Ammo Link: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tar...metal-jacket-1000-rounds-m193bk-p-110074.aspx
Using sand bags to help stabilize rifle.

I re torqued the scope bolts, The barrel nut was torqued to around 60 ft lbs. , I ran many patches down the barrel and then a clean patch.
Definitely holding rifle at center of target at 50 yards.

At 50 yards here are 3 of my groupings, I shot 2x at each target. Something just seems off and groups seem really large.

Are these definitely bad groupings at 50 yards and is my barrel most likely the issue?
How would you deal with this issue and can I return this barrel to Faxon?

Thanks for any advice on dealing with this issue,.

50 yards, each box is a square inch.

I'd step back and try to figure out what exactly your goals are for this rifle? It is, IMO, no way set up for any sort of long range shooting. It looks like you have an SB arm brace on it?
Pencil Barrel
Non-Precision Brand Barrel
NATO ammo.

Keep in mind, if you've read how great LC brass is, its true....but that doesn't mean that surplus NATO ammo in LC brass is any good. Military requirements for accuracy are in no way precision based.

Back to your goal... if your goal is to just have a decent AR and occasionally shoot to 3-400yds, then I would just try to find some ammo that your rifle likes and shoot the NATO stuff for practice and carbine work.
If your goal is to actually shoot long range with an AR, then I would invest in a better stock and a better barrel. If you're set on 16" I would look at White Oak Armament or Compass Lake. You can get a heavier profile 16" precision based barrel. Personally I would go to a 18 or 20" barrel.

 

[awpk03s]

In that Larue mount, make sure you are torquing the bottom bolts first, then the top. And don’t overdo the torque value.

I think Faxon pencil barrel, plus XM193 ammo is your biggest issue.

Just curious, why the pistol brace with a 16” rifle barrel?

 

[MikeInUtah]

You been here for 6 years and this is your build for long range?

 

[Lunchbox27]

Is this setup to just be a blaster/fun range gun? What other ammo have you tried? What is on the muzzle?

At 50 yards with a 1-4 optic, on a bench with a bag I would expect at least 3/4” group. Has anyone else shot the rifle?

 

[candyx]

Get a rifle sled and set it up and just pinch the trigger to take out any of the human effect and shoot a 5 round group and that will tell you if its the rifle is ok or not.

 

[Long Range]

The stock that I'm using is because the lower is from another build.

Why would the stock matter anyway, I have the gun setup on sand bags and am only just touching my shoulder with the stock.

 

[Long Range]

You been here for 6 years and this is your build for long range?

Yes, I had moved when I first started this and getting back into the hobby again.

 

[Gustav7]

The stock that I'm using is because the lower is from another build.

Why would the stock matter anyway, I have the gun setup on sand bags and am only just touching my shoulder with the stock.

The stock has an effect on cheek weld, and body position. Cheek weld and body position all have an effect on sight alignment and the ability to replicate that without changing, shot to shot.

there’s a lot that goes into precision shooting. Sight alignment and body position/cheek weld play a large role in that.

for someone knew to precision shooting I’d recommend watching some of the training videos at the top of the page and in other areas here on the forum. There are some really Great videos getting into everything from body positions to ballistics to all shooting fundamentals and how they have an impact on long range shooting.

theres been a few good comments and suggestions and/or questions to your post. Did you have any more questions or comments?

 

[bfoosh006]

First off... XM193 is not known for being precise ammo, so as others have mentioned... try some more accuracy oriented ammo first.

Next shoot more than 2 rd groups... with that ammo you aren't going to see a good representation of its accuracy potential.

And make sure your gas block is not even close to touching your handguard.

 

[Long Range]

I'm going to have to take into account all these things when I go back to the range again. Not sure when that will be, either next week or 3 weeks away.

Do you guys think I really need a rifle sled? Or should the sand bags I am using be good enough to get consistent groups?

Do you think I should use my Vortex Viper PST 6-24 scope? I bought this many years ago and hardly used it. Will that change anything?

 

[Gustav7]

I'm going to have to take into account all these things when I go back to the range again. Not sure when that will be, either next week or 3 weeks away.

Do you guys think I really need a rifle sled? Or should the sand bags I am using be good enough to get consistent groups?

Do you think I should use my Vortex Viper PST 6-24 scope? I bought this many years ago and hardly used it. Will that change anything?

nah man, a better scope isn’t going to change much and I don’t think a sled is necessary, especially if you don’t have one already.

If you’re newer to precision shooting and you’re trying to figure out what’s wrong, you can:
1.) Find someone with experience and ask them to try.
2.) buy a couple boxes of different match ammo and see if that helps.

either way I would highly recommend watching some body position videos.

With an LPVO and a MBT-2S trigger you should be able to shoot that rifle to the best of its ability. In the end, there’s 3 main limiting factors; Ammo, Rifle, and Shooter.

next range trip, if anything I’d at least try to redo this test with 3-5 shot groups, better body position regardless of whether you have a bag or not, and the shorting fundamentals. See what happens. Either way I doubt that Faxon pencil barrel is ever gonna give you what you’re thinking in regards to “precision”.
Good luck though

 

[nn8734]

I'm going to have to take into account all these things when I go back to the range again. Not sure when that will be, either next week or 3 weeks away.

Do you guys think I really need a rifle sled? Or should the sand bags I am using be good enough to get consistent groups?

Do you think I should use my Vortex Viper PST 6-24 scope? I bought this many years ago and hardly used it. Will that change anything?

You don’t need a friggin rifle sled. You need to keep a consistent cheek weld and otherwise execute the fundamentals consistently correctly. Also, as others have said, buy some good match ammo such as Black Hills 77g OTM - pick up a couple boxes wherever you can find it. Unless you have evidence to suggest your existing scope is bad , there is no reason to change it.

With the limited information avail to me via your posts in the thread, I personally think the problem is you (fundamentals) or your barrel. XM193 isn’t the most accurate ammo on earth but 1.0”-1.25” groups at 36-50 yards should be doable with your set up as pictured.

Do this first and, if possible bring another, known good shooter with you next time you go out. If it still shoots like shit with the both of you shooting match ammo, it’s time to pull it apart and put a quality barrel in the length of your choosing on the rifle.

As I mentioned before, my Daniel Defense barrels (10.3 and 14.5) are 1.25 -1.5 MOA With everything from ball to match ammo. Want tighter than that, you will need to spend more for a quality match grade tube. There’s tons of manufacturers available to choose from.

Let us know how it goes

 

[Gustav7]

OP,

we’ve been harping about how surplus ammo isnt precision based, and I tried to find you an example.

In the attached picture there’s 3 x 3 shot groups. The bigger one of the right is surplus ammo out of a $400 match grade barrel. The 2 smaller ones on the left, is simply loading a better bullet to match grade standards. This was at 100yds mind you, but shows you that even high quality barrels will only shoot so well with ammo that isn't suited for it.

Unfortunately man, its RARE to be able to buy a standard style AR-15 barrel and expect precision shooting out of it. That being said, if you don't have the cash to get a better barrel, and you're not expecting to take it out to 600yds with amazing success, you can still have fun with this barrel, and learn to shoot better with it, then upgrade later

 

[SRPowah]

2" group at 50 yards? Roughly 4" at 100 probably? 4moa sounds about right for a lightweight pencil barrel with bulk NATO ammo. I see nothing wrong here at all.

 

[MontanaMan]

At 50 yards that is bad. Let a good AR15 shooter try the rifle first before anything else.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For God's sake, he's shooting 50 yards..............rare to have even XM193 shoot that badly, & the 2 shot groups are moving around.

Could easily be the shooter, bad scope, or both................even really shit AR barrels will normally do better than that at 50 YARDS. Not possible to shoot that stock consistently, but it is only 50 yards, should be able to do much better.

60 ft/lb if torque is heavy, but unless he broke something, if done right, should be OK.

MM

 

[Ledzep]

All of the "XM###" ammo I've shot has me convinced it's military reject on account of piss poor accuracy. I would start there.

No joke, had some that was a flip of a coin if it'd hit a paper plate at 100yd or not. Same rifle shot 75 & 77gr bthp well under 1.5 MOA.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Barrel sucks, ammo sucks. You could get by with a shitty barrel and good ammo that it likes, or a good barrel and shitty ammo..but not both.

 

[Molon]

I'm somewhat new to this long range shooting. I did shoot a PSA 16" ar15 using this same scope and mount and I believe my groups were very close.

I built an ar15 rifle with a Faxon 16" pencil barrel. LaRue MBT 2s trigger
Barrel link: https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-16-pencil-profile-ar15-barrel-5-56-nato-nitrided/
Steiner 4x optic.
AMMO is Lake City 5.56mm NATO XM193 Ammo 55 Grain
Ammo Link: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tar...metal-jacket-1000-rounds-m193bk-p-110074.aspx
Using sand bags to help stabilize rifle.


I re torqued the scope bolts, The barrel nut was torqued to around 60 ft lbs. , I ran many patches down the barrel and then a clean patch.
Definitely holding rifle at center of target at 50 yards.

At 50 yards here are 3 of my groupings, I shot 2x at each target. Something just seems off and groups seem really large.

Are these definitely bad groupings at 50 yards and is my barrel most likely the issue?
How would you deal with this issue and can I return this barrel to Faxon?

Thanks for any advice on dealing with this issue,.

50 yards, each box is a square inch.

1. Two shots are not "groupings".

2. Garbage ammunition through a cheap barrel is not a hopeful combination.

3. How many rounds total were fired through this barrel prior to shooting the shots in your pics?


...

 

[Molon]

Get a rifle sled and set it up and just pinch the trigger to take out any of the human effect and shoot a 5 round group and that will tell you if its the rifle is ok or not.

Please post pics of groups that you've personally fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 using a "rifle sled." In the meantime, here's a pic of a 10-shot group fired from an AR-15, shooting off of bags, at a distance of 100 yards, using a lower receiver with a pistol brace.

....

 

[Molon]

I have the gun setup on sand bags and am only just touching my shoulder with the stock.

That's a BIG part of your problem.


...

 

[Molon]

Do you guys think I really need a rifle sled?

See the group I posted above fired from an AR-15, off of sand bags.

 

[Molon]

2" group at 50 yards? Roughly 4" at 100 probably? 4moa sounds about right for a lightweight pencil barrel with bulk NATO ammo. I see nothing wrong here at all.

His 6 shots over-layed on each other form a 6-shot composite group with an extreme spread of 6.9 MOA. There's nothing "right" about that.

....

 

[TxWelder35]

How much experience do you have shooting rifles? How many sub moa groups have you shot?

 

[candyx]

Sand bags will

Please post pics of groups that you've personally fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 using a "rifle sled." In the meantime, here's a pic of a 10-shot group fired from an AR-15, shooting off of bags, at a distance of 100 yards, using a lower receiver with a pistol brace.

....

Never fired a AR15 off a sled this was was set up on a custom built 10/22 . The front rest has micrometer adjustment as well as the rear rest , a little more accurate than a rifle sled.

 

[HousePlant]

The groups with more holes on this target are from my off-the-shelf Ruger AR-556 (16" barrel, 1-8 twist) at 100 yards equipped with a cheapo Vortex China scope and shot off of a Harris-copy bipod and a sock filled with rice for a rear bag. I wasn't trying too hard on some groups, as you can see by me walking up a little as I shot faster. The smaller (in number of rounds) groups are my .223 bolt gun (22" barrel, 1-9 twist), which WAS NOT a fan of these rounds. Those groups were VERY try hard. Personally, I would not buy this ammo again. I can get the same groups (or better) from much less expensive factory ammo. Was on sale for a reason.

FYI: I don't aim for the red squares and the two holes in the big center red square are one shot from each gun to validate a good enough zero before leaving.

If your scope mount is pushed forward against the rail lugs and your barrel and barrel nut was installed properly (don't assume it is... not uncommon to goof it up) then it's the barrel. Unless you're a bad shot or the ammo you chose was junk. Or shifting winds, haha.

 

[eastexsteve]

I'm somewhat new to this long range shooting. I did shoot a PSA 16" ar15 using this same scope and mount and I believe my groups were very close.

I built an ar15 rifle with a Faxon 16" pencil barrel. LaRue MBT 2s trigger
Barrel link: https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-16-pencil-profile-ar15-barrel-5-56-nato-nitrided/
Steiner 4x optic.
AMMO is Lake City 5.56mm NATO XM193 Ammo 55 Grain
Ammo Link: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tar...metal-jacket-1000-rounds-m193bk-p-110074.aspx
Using sand bags to help stabilize rifle.


I re torqued the scope bolts, The barrel nut was torqued to around 60 ft lbs. , I ran many patches down the barrel and then a clean patch.
Definitely holding rifle at center of target at 50 yards.

At 50 yards here are 3 of my groupings, I shot 2x at each target. Something just seems off and groups seem really large.

Are these definitely bad groupings at 50 yards and is my barrel most likely the issue?
How would you deal with this issue and can I return this barrel to Faxon?

Thanks for any advice on dealing with this issue,.

50 yards, each box is a square inch.

Just for grins, try a a heavier bullet. Something along the lines of a 62 or 77 grain bullet in 5.56x45.

 

[SRPowah]

His 6 shots over-layed on each other form a 6-shot composite group with an extreme spread of 6.9 MOA. There's nothing "right" about that.
....

I considered that, but my assumption is shooter induced error. In the end, we need more info. We don't know if he shot 6 shots without adjusting himself, adjusting the optic, kentucky windage to try and move the bullet to center, etc...

My assumption is he shot, got off the rifle, got back on the rifle. It could easily be the shooter shifting the groups around as he fails to rebuild his form, and that is based on the comments like the one you quoted by him above. If a confident and competent shooter had shot a 10 shot group that spanned almost 7moa, it would be another discussion. Teach him how to do your style of test. lol

 

[MontanaMan]

Gotta love his screen name though........................just sayin'.

MM

 

[Long Range]

Just something I read when watching some videos on faxon pencil barrels. I then googled this and someone else commented on this.

They say that when the slide locks back on the last round it can cause flyers? Is this this even possible?

Only reason I ask is I was adjusting my gas block while I was doing this shooting and I did load 1 round in most of the time.

 

[eastexsteve]

Just something I read when watching some videos on faxon pencil barrels. I then googled this and someone else commented on this.

They say that when the slide locks back on the last round it can cause flyers? Is this this even possible?

Only reason I ask is I was adjusting my gas block while I was doing this shooting and I did load 1 round in most of the time.

When the slide locks back on that gun, that bullet is long gone out of that barrel.

 

[ae7v]

Kinda Wish you would have shot at least three per group but either way that’s a huge amount of dispersion.

Disassemble, reassemble checking everything over thoroughly. Once the barrel is off again, inspect the chamber, throat area and muzzle for anything unusual (You prob won’t find anything but it’s worth a close look just in case). Also check to ensure the gas block isn’t making contact with the hand guard or nothing is loose anywhere.

Once reassembled, Shoot a few three shot groups and see what happens. If it still behaves that way, and you have ruled other causes out, I’d call Faxon about it and see what they will do for you.

When benched or prone with a rear rest and Bipod My DD Mk18 shoots less than an inch with 5 shots using an Eotech and magnifier with IMI XM193 ammo at 50 yards, which is similar to your ammo.

A few things come to mind, pencil barrel has a lot more wild harmonics than a heavier barrel. Also not sure on how you torqued your barrel but because of the black phosphate you could have a loose barrel due to the area of contact with the barrel nut breaking down because it was cleaned and torqued properly during assembly. The other side of the coin is that the firearm may not be broken in yet. If all your brass is not landing about 8 feet away at 4 to 5 o'clock from shooting bench position, you are not broke in yet and it will be erratic.

 

[secm]

Step 1. Get better barrel. I used a faxon pencil once. Never again

step 2. Get better ammo

Agreed! I would NEVER use a pencil barrel on any rifle. They are great for weight savings but you WILL give up accuracy in most cases. A poney can't do the same job of a horse. Proper break in applys to all barrels. Good luck.

 

[nn8734]

A few things come to mind, pencil barrel has a lot more wild harmonics than a heavier barrel. Also not sure on how you torqued your barrel but because of the black phosphate you could have a loose barrel due to the area of contact with the barrel nut breaking down because it was cleaned and torqued properly during assembly. The other side of the coin is that the firearm may not be broken in yet. If all your brass is not landing about 8 feet away at 4 to 5 o'clock from shooting bench position, you are not broke in yet and it will be erratic.

Agree with respect to harmonics, I’d never choose a pencil barrel for any build ever. I use Daniel Defense for carbines and either Douglas, Lilja or Criterion barrels for precision stuff.

If you’re asking me how I torque my barrel nut - I use ARP fastener assembly lube and torque all mine to 45-55 ft lbs using a armorers wrench and 1/2 drive snap on torque wrench. Can’t speak for the OP‘s barrel torquing methods...

I suspect, as stated in one of my subsequent posts, that his fundamentals may be to blame for the poor groupings more so then the barrel/rifle. See post 14, 2nd paragraph for why I think so.

 

[S197]

At 50 yards that is bad. Let a good AR15 shooter try the rifle first before anything else.

even with xm193 your groups should be a lot tighter. With us not knowing much about you, I would take a separate AR15 that you know shoots well and shoot 3-5 shot groups( post the pics). Then return to your build and do th3 same. If it is still crappy put iron sites on the built AR shoot a few groups and start elimination process.

 

[rrroadster]

I'd consider align honing the upper reciever. It helped me out greatly on an AR10 build once.

 

[Molon]

Never fired a AR15 off a sled . . .

Then why are you advising the OP to do something that you have no experience in doing?


..

 

[Molon]

. . . this was was set up on a custom built 10/22 . The front rest has micrometer adjustment as well as the rear rest , a little more accurate than a rifle sled.

View attachment 7394216

Which has nothing to do with an AR-15 and even less to do with shooting one from a "sled."


..

 

[Molon]

I would NEVER use a pencil barrel on any rifle.

A light-weight barrel for a semi-automatic AR-15 with an intelligently designed profile from a quality manufacturer can serve it’s intended role quite well. A Colt 16” “pencil” barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, six ounces. A Bravo Company 14.5” barrel with an enhanced-light-weight profile weighs one ounce less than that, yet produces better accuracy/precision.


Colt “pencil” barrel.

BCM 14.5” ELW

Shooting off-the-bench at a distance of 100 yards (using a high magnification scope and hand-loads), my BCM 14.5” ELW barrel produced a 10-shot group that has an extreme spread of 0.946” with a mean radius of 0.33”.

….

 

[Long Range]

I went to the range today. The only thing I did was quickly clean the gun and barrel quickly before heading to the range and put on a different stock. I used the same 5.56 Federal, but also tried some Wolf Gold .223 ammo.

I guess it must be me then, I didn't think I became that much of a better shooter. I wonder if it had to do with the rain and foggy glasses. It did seem overall easier to shoot today.

The groups labeled with 5.56 and Wolf are from my AR15, I wasn't about a couple of groups so I didn't label them. There is one black target which I labled 100 yards with 3 shots from the Wolf ammo. The other targets are at 50 Yards.

This is using the same Steiner 4x scope.

I guess these groups look normal with the ammo and barrel I'm using?

50 Yard groups. The groups not labled are probably from my ar15, but I can't be sure if they were from my 308 or ar15.

50 Yard Groups

100 Yard Group circled. I was aiming dead center.

Ar15 on left. The scar 17s is difficult to shoot with the 24x scope, the trigger is awful and very hard to press and the gun shakes a lot, I can't steady it on target for some reason. I used the 24x magnification at 50 yards and 100 yards with the scar17s.

 

[nn8734]

I went to the range today. The only thing I did was quickly clean the gun and barrel quickly before heading to the range and put on a different stock. I used the same 5.56 Federal, but also tried some Wolf Gold .223 ammo.

I guess it must be me then, I didn't think I became that much of a better shooter. I wonder if it had to do with the rain and foggy glasses. It did seem overall easier to shoot today.

The groups labeled with 5.56 and Wolf are from my AR15, I wasn't about a couple of groups so I didn't label them. There is one black target which I labled 100 yards with 3 shots from the Wolf ammo. The other targets are at 50 Yards.

This is using the same Steiner 4x scope.

I guess these groups look normal with the ammo and barrel I'm using?

50 Yard groups. The groups not labled are probably from my ar15, but I can't be sure if they were from my 308 or ar15.

50 Yard Groups

100 Yard Group circled. I was aiming dead center.

Ar15 on left. The scar 17s is difficult to shoot with the 24x scope, the trigger is awful and very hard to press and the gun shakes a lot, I can't steady it on target for some reason. I used the 24x magnification at 50 yards and 100 yards with the scar17s.

Just a question: are you breaking your cheek weld at all between shots in a given group for any reason?

Also, why is the SCAR 17 “shaking”?

24x magnification is a bit high for these distances so perhaps the tiny involuntary movements we all have to some extent is being magnified by the optic?

I use 10-14x when shooting targets at a grand depending on conditions. I’d turn the magnification down to about 8-10x at 50/100 yards and ensure you have a well-rested/supported position. Then I’d work on your breathing. You should be breaking your shots at the bottom of your natural respiratory pause once the x hair comes naturally to a rest right over the target after exhaling. That’s when the body is most at rest...at home, work on dry firing exercises, ensuring you’re not pulling, pushing or slapping the trigger. Should be a symmetrical squeeze straight back every time. You can do this indoors on 1-2x magnification (referring to your AR15) if you have some space.

Can’t argue with you on the SCAR trigger, lol. Perhaps someone more familiar with that platform can recommend a trigger upgrade.

The 5.56 groups look reasonable given your set up but I bet you can tighten them up a bit with some more practice on the fundamentals.

If you haven’t already done so, I’d consider signing up for the on-line training. Lots of really good information for shooters of all skill levels.

 

[Long Range]

Yes, I was breaking the cheek weld pretty often the first time around. Is that bad to do?

 

[nn8734]

Yes, I was breaking the cheek weld pretty often the first time around. Is that bad to do?

Unless there is reason to (weapon malfunction or sudden distraction requiring your immediate attention) always maintain your cheek weld as long as you are on the gun. Come off only when you have completed that particular group or have to reload and can’t do it while still on the gun. Between that and your disclosure in post 14 (only making contact with the shoulder) explains the large dispersion.

still would like to get to the bottom of the case of the shaking SCAR, lol.