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PRS Talk Can we stop shooting offhand in PRS?

If you actually look, the competitors drove the stages to the point it is now, they pressed for the stages they liked instead of the stages they needed.

This is why you have the same solutions for multiple stages,

we used to get AARs from the military classes we taught and then we would craft stages around the situation.

IMG_1195.JPG


This is a page from Nick Irving, (Reaper 33) where on deployment we scored the BN High for kills, we used them to establish stages
 
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It seems like we're talking about a "practical" rifle series, instead of the "precision" series we have now. I remember when Frank interviewed Jacob Bynam (sp) he talked about how all his stages in a match were from a real world story. I think that's a match I'd like to shoot.

His matches are created out of real situations rather then contrived stages. I really respect Jacob and his philosophy.

More matches should be that way IMO, that and field stages. I like things from a more practical standpoint, and offhand and support side (it's not "weak" side shooting - you shouldn't have a "weak side" as Jacob would say) have a place in that.
 
Shot a match a couple of weeks ago. First 4 shots were standing at a 100% IPSCC at 200 yards before moving on to 8 shots kneeling from two windows at 975 yards on a 12” plate. 12 pts, 3 positions, 120 secs. Not too many high scores but it was a fun stage and most missed the kneeling shots.
 
8 shots kneeling from two windows at 975 yards on a 12” plate. 12 pts, 3 positions, 120 secs. Not too many high scores but it was a fun stage and most missed the kneeling shots.

I don't mind positional but I'd call that a pretty dumb stage. Basically a 1.2 MOA target at a distance where wind variability is much greater than the width of a target, and even really good unsupported positional shooter is going to average a 2 MOA wobble. For reference the NRA High Power 200 yard kneeling target has a 10 ring that is over 2MOA in size.

Just a bunch of rounds into the dirt and the few hits that happened would be lucky.
 
I don't mind positional but I'd call that a pretty dumb stage. Basically a 1.2 MOA target at a distance where wind variability is much greater than the width of a target, and even really good unsupported positional shooter is going to average a 2 MOA wobble. For reference the NRA High Power 200 yard kneeling target has a 10 ring that is over 2MOA in size.

Just a bunch of rounds into the dirt and the few hits that happened would be lucky.

Possibly but it’s the first year of PRS in the U.K. and we are still learning.
 
Possibly but it’s the first year of PRS in the U.K. and we are still learning.

When you proof the stages, ask yourself “would I feel comfortable taking this shot in a practical or hunting scenario?” Or “do I feel absolutely safe and confident this will either be on target or in the berm?”

If the answer is no to either, change or get ride of the stage.
 
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Moral of the Story
I wish I could be over 6ft tall when needed so there is no downside,

Ever see a 6' 4" 80 year old? 90 year old? Us tall trees don't live as long... all my family around 5'6" live to their 100's... GrandPap didn't make it to 80.... ☠,

Car Seats, Airplanes, Couches... Beds, Benches, Crawl Spaces, Heavily Wooded areas, Low Bridges... Women, Shirts (Especially Sleeves), Pants, Jackets, Socks, Suspenders and everyone sees your nose hair...

The only good thing so far.... you can hide your bald spot a little better! ?
 
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If you have ever played golf... a course is like a challenge of each golfers skill. Every good architect throws in at least one wild, crazy hard hole... the number 1 handicap hole.

It can be a super long par 4, or crazy two dogleg. Or the whole damn course is hard as hell, or it is easy as hell...

That's the fun part.. challenge yourself. Eagle a Par 5 600yd hole? That's damn good. Par it? Damn good.

There are similarities with golf and shooting PRS... but as usual, it is practice, application and mental game that gets you good scores.

It's all good brothas.....
 
ie 1k yds off hand in 25-30 mph winds (yup, have had to do it)...sure all the offhand guys in this thread would have cleaned up lol

lol! Shawn and I had been debating having an Offhand Palma match down at Atterbury.

1,000 yard offhand is not TERRIBLE, even with irons, but I'd be very hard pressed to keep them on a full-size IPSC, even in ideal conditions, and even with my 4x Nightforce on the rifle. Actually, knowing my metrics, there is no way I could keep 10 rounds on an IPSC at that range.

My physical hold radius is not the issue, even with a 17lb gun; it's what happens to the hold radius in 10+ mph wind, and the fact that you have to be dialing windage or holding off at the same time it takes you 10+ seconds to send a round.

In ideal conditions though? I could probably hold for mostly 9's (30").

The problem is the rarity of those kind of days....
 
I don't think the offhand shots are unreasonable, but to think you will get hits without lots of practice is. If the skill is relevant is certainly debatable. I quite enjoy the skills and confidence gained from silhouette, but it was a significant investment in time and money.
I agree that offhand shots themselves aren't unreasonable, it's just that some of the specific offhand shooting stages ARE unreasonable.

For example on the stage I described, an IPSC at 550 yards, the offhand shot was ridiculous. It was up near Pawnee Sportsman's Center where the wind is usually blowing at least 10-15 mph and often more like 15-25mph, and the target was 18" wide by 30" high, substantially smaller than the rams used in silhouette shooting at about the same distance. The timer gave you 2 minutes to get off 8 shots with 4 total positions, meaning if it took an average of 5 seconds to get into each position you'd have only about 12 seconds per shot on the target.

The offhand shots there were essentially having you shoot a silhouette match except you were standing in the middle of a random lumpy field, you had a guarantee of strong winds based on location, the target was smaller, and you were given only 1/3 of the time per shot compared to what you would have in a silhouette match.

I draw the line when the stages were designed knowing full well the individual shots would be more difficult to make than the shots found in a slower pace, "bullseye-style" match environment. At that point it's no longer a test of individual skill, it becomes a game of luck the same as if you have some targets worth substantially more than other targets. When you can't even expect someone who specializes in that type of shooting (550 yard offhand at silhouettes) to perform particularly well on a stage it means everyone at a typical PRS match is going to just be sending shots downrange and praying they get close or hit.

That said, for those who struggle with offhand shooting there's a trick that's pretty helpful since you don't have to follow the same types of rules as bullseye and silhouette matches that often prohibit this kind of thing. Start by locking the knee of your front leg and getting a good chick lean going. Then set your lead arm's elbow on top of your lead leg's hip bone., point your forearm straight up, and tip your wrist back like you're carrying a server's tray. Set the rifle on top of your hand so that it balances and you've now set up a solid chain of bone and locked joints straight from the rifle down to the ground. It looks stupid as all get-out, but it works.
 
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Tripod shooting evolved from making standing easier to some degree when no support was available.

I wouldn't mind a REASONABLE off hand few shots then a tripod for a few .
 
I'd go one farther and say there is no "practical" reason to have a 20+ lbs rifle. Or maybe off hand shots are a way match directors are trying to limit those type of rifles??

I know my Hunting rig is no where near that weight.
And it's probably nowhere near being a prs rifle either!
 
Having started my bolt-rifle life at Project Appleseed when I was young, I think there should be at least A stage that incorporates at least AN off hand shot; call it a bonus shot if you want, but it is a fundamental rifle skill. I think if it goes away, it's a matter of time before 40 lbs benchrest rail guns start showing up on stages

Edit: on the target size, again to harp on proj Appleseed thing, standing with irons you need to be able to shoot sub 4MOA. So with optics in a sitting or kneeling position 2-3MOA should be more than reasonable...
 
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Not in 15secs it's not reasonable
I respectfully disagree... The first (easiest stage) of an Appleseed shoot is 1 shot every 12 seconds standing, unsupported. That's for 10 shots in a row... I think asking for one or two off hand shots in a stage with that time limit is reasonable. It's challenging as hell, no doubt, but we don't compete hoping to not be challenged..
More info on stages in PrjAplSd:
 
Having started my bolt-rifle life at Project Appleseed when I was young, I think there should be at least A stage that incorporates at least AN off hand shot; call it a bonus shot if you want, but it is a fundamental rifle skill. I think if it goes away, it's a matter of time before 40 lbs benchrest rail guns start showing up on stages

Edit: on the target size, again to harp on proj Appleseed thing, standing with irons you need to be able to shoot sub 4MOA. So with optics in a sitting or kneeling position 2-3MOA should be more than reasonable...

The current offhand stage that occurs (it’s not often) isn’t the reason you don’t see 40lb guns.
 
The current offhand stage that occurs (it’s not often) isn’t the reason you don’t see 40lb guns.
Of course not. I'm being a bit hyperbolic. There are a lot of practical reasons why you don't see people lugging anvils between barricades. I was just making the point of removing off hand shooting slides us further down a slope away from basics..
 
Of course not. I'm being a bit hyperbolic. There are a lot of practical reasons why you don't see people lugging anvils between barricades. I was just making the point of removing off hand shooting slides us further down a slope away from basics..

It doesn’t at all.

Unless a person within 100yds (ipsc for match purposes), you’d never take an offhand shot with a tactical rifle. And it ain’t gonna be a good/fast shot.

If you’re hunting and taking offhand shots, it ain’t gonna be with the rifles we use in comps.

99% of the offhand stages in matches are contrived gimmicks.
 
It doesn’t at all.

Unless a person within 100yds (ipsc for match purposes), you’d never take an offhand shot with a tactical rifle. And it ain’t gonna be a good/fast shot.

If you’re hunting and taking offhand shots, it ain’t gonna be with the rifles we use in comps.

99% of the offhand stages in matches are contrived gimmicks.
I hear what you're saying, but you just touched on the point I'm making. "It ain't gonna be with the rifles we use in comps." I think keeping off hand shots keeps people from diverging PRS rifles into their own niche within a niche.
 
But that is with a pre-prep time, isn't it? It's a lot different when you're rotating through standing sitting kneeling, prone unsupported, 10 rds in 2 minutes. This is the reality of how SO most often is utilized in PRS and NRL22 when you miss your 2 min pre-prep that 15secs a shot includes getting into position and then it's a whole different game
Sort of, there's time to ready up your rifle between stages similar to any precision rifle match, but the times listed are for the actual string of fire. Insanely hard, but makes you feel great actually shooting a good score. I couldn't recommend it enough as training and an experience.
 
I do like the offhand stages. Gives a chance to separate and gain a few points for some or lose a few points for others.

I shoot a lot of service rifle, which requires offhand shooting and feel off hand stages give me the opportunity to make some points up.

Also keeping the Practical aspect in mind for those who show up with 20lb + rifles. Actually kind of entertaining to watch people with super heavy guns ride the Struggle Bus. Gets kind of boring to watch people free recoil their 6 mm off of fence posts and tank traps all day.

Cheers
 
Shot a couple BWRS matches at Rush Lake Range, 2 had offhand stages and as much as I loathe those stages I liked how it was planned.

First was full size IPSC at 150, one hit to move on. Then smaller targets at distance and prone for the rest of the stage.

Other was a bigger pig target at 200something, 3 shots hit or miss for the stage. Seemed practical to me and wasnt going to hinge a match on one stage.
Lol. Full size at 150.

I thought there was supposed to be some difficulty.






This thread reflects the participation / snowflake society we are living in.
 
The simple fact is guns that shoot well off props don't lend themselves to positional high-power XC and high-end high-power rifles and aren't well suited to the PRS game. If you're looking for the IDPA of precision rifle action shooting sports, then ya, you're going to be dissapointed in PRS. If you want COF that's specifically designed to support your idea of a more practical rifle then find someone that runs a hunter class.

Trying to argue an ethic that is contrary to what 90% of the people in the sport are driving towards is like trying to carry the torch on unknown distance stages. If realistic and practical aspects are the goal, then why aren't we pushing that? Because PRS is more akin to IPSC than it is IDPA. No one cares about shooting from cover, no one cares that you conduct tac mag changes without retention and leave a half full mag on the ground. You don't use a Limited division race gun for self-defense and you don't hunt with a comp gun.
Pretty sure a lot of people hunt with prs style guns. Maybe minus the weight package and 1oz trigger but otherwise the same
 
You're going to have to qualify that statement
Then you are going to have to qualify your statement that “...you don’t hunt with a comp gun.”

Are you comfortable doing that?

Because you are wrong.

Perhaps YOU don’t, but there are a helluva lot of comp guns and comp types and comp shooters out there for you to make such a broad statement about hunting and defensive use and hope it to have any truth.
 
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I’m not the one crying about off hand stages or advocating for lol full size ispc at lol 100 yards.
 
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Lol. Full size at 150.

I thought there was supposed to be some difficulty.






This thread reflects the participation / snowflake society we are living in.


Again, not opposed to off-hand stages and I don't think I'm advocating for full-size targets at 3 dick lengths either. Not sure if you made it to the end of the second line of the post but the stage followed with smaller targets at distance. That stage for example incorporated an offhand shot at a more than reasonable size and distance then building a prone position under time which I think are fairly practical concepts and fall well into the scope of a practical precision rifle competition with a reasonable level of difficulty. Probably more feasible and practical than the OPs scenario. That being said, I neither have much sympathy for most/all COF complaints. Adapt and make the shot. (with the slight exception of not making stages feasible for newer/younger/older/female'r shooters in some way)
 
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My biggest problem with the PRS and NRL to an extent. "Oh, you have a field and want to put on a match even though you started shooting last year?"

Redic. Crazy. Absurd. Min 5 years of MD experience before you are even considered to run a match SHOULD be a bare minimum.


Regards,
DT
I can name 4 matches off the top of my head just here in the northwest where the MD' s hardly even shoot PRS. I've seen a couple of them at matches, the other two I've never seen at a match.
 
Trying to argue an ethic that is contrary to what I am driving towards is like trying to carry the torch on unknown distance stages. If realistic and practical aspects are the goal, then why aren't I pushing that? Because PRS is more akin to IPSC than it is IDPA. I don't care about shooting from cover, I don't care that you conduct tac mag changes without retention and leave a half full mag on the ground. You don't use a Limited division race gun for self-defense and you don't hunt with a comp gun.

There I fixed your post.

Your missing most of the point of this entire thread I believe. Most of the argument for offhand is being stated by people who are not of like mind. We want stages that Challenge and test our skills. We don't care about the Game, or cheating the system. We use it to validate our training to see where we stand for ourselves, when put under someone else's rules and ranges.

If you look back at where PRS came from, (I wasn't there so I'm taking people like Frank and Jacob's words here) it was from a PRACTICAL standpoint. Matches were designed to test skills developed through training. Training that evolved based on actual experiences learned "in the field". And what was learned at the Competitions themselves could then be taken backwards as a "what worked better" and trained to be used in actual life experiences.

Now it seems like we have a game that has been molded and changed to lend itself to the strengths of a select few who employ specifically designed equipment to "Compete" with the rest of the gamers. If those Game Guns can't do something they seem to throw a fit until the MD's remove or change the stages until it fits their desires.

I'm all for hard unreasonable stages, if I find something I can't do I don't bitch about it. I either train myself until I can, or seek professionals to train me until I can. In the rare instance I feel I can't then I don't, but I surly don't bitch until someone lowers the bar until I can.



and commence whining in...…..three......two...…...one.
 
There I fixed your post.

Your missing most of the point of this entire thread I believe. Most of the argument for offhand is being stated by people who are not of like mind. We want stages that Challenge and test our skills. We don't care about the Game, or cheating the system. We use it to validate our training to see where we stand for ourselves, when put under someone else's rules and ranges.

If you look back at where PRS came from, (I wasn't there so I'm taking people like Frank and Jacob's words here) it was from a PRACTICAL standpoint. Matches were designed to test skills developed through training. Training that evolved based on actual experiences learned "in the field". And what was learned at the Competitions themselves could then be taken backwards as a "what worked better" and trained to be used in actual life experiences.

Now it seems like we have a game that has been molded and changed to lend itself to the strengths of a select few who employ specifically designed equipment to "Compete" with the rest of the gamers. If those Game Guns can't do something they seem to throw a fit until the MD's remove or change the stages until it fits their desires.

I'm all for hard unreasonable stages, if I find something I can't do I don't bitch about it. I either train myself until I can, or seek professionals to train me until I can. In the rare instance I feel I can't then I don't, but I surly don't bitch until someone lowers the bar until I can.



and commence whining in...…..three......two...…...one.

You’re correct that the original intent of matches is to be practical.

However, practical/tactical rifle designs have evolved. You’ll rarely, if ever, take an offhand shot with a modern tactical rifle. In a tactical environment, you’d be better off moving to cover (too long to get a good sight picture and get shot off before target moves or is
), and in a hunting scenario, better off finding a better shot (when using a tactical style rifle. A hunting weight rifle is different).

Since you’re using Jacob/RO as an example, I’ll use the offhand stage at the Brawl last year. It was kneeling, at somewhere around 100yds, and it was either a 66% or full size ipsc (I cant remember, but it was big).

Weapon systems change over time and so do tactics.

Shooting tactical style rifles offhand/unsupported is more or less the same as reticle ranging, a legacy skill.
 
I was at a match a days drive away and near a buddy of mine I don't get to see very often. I came in Friday to confirm registry and confirm zero. Wind was 40+mph, and I was getting hits @ 800 which was super cool (it calmed down for the match). He came out and watched a little the first day.

On the second night he broke out some whisky, and it was one of those nights where it just gets away from you unintentionally. I knew the second I woke up and felt the hurt that day 2 of this match was going to be a brutal one.

I actually shot good and was very happy with my performance till the offhand stage. About a second after getting a sight picture in the wrong eye the world started doing somersaults, and I literally heaved a couple of times. I hit two of ten, which I was also pretty happy with because I felt like vomiting every second of that stage.

I say keep them in. It eliminates all the drunks from the comp.
 
There are ways to fix this while still playing a game including a more practical element to it.

The traditional Offhand, even the way RO did it at the Brawl, was not how I would have done it. But let me start off by saying, a big part of the problem is trying to jam too many stages in at one time.

We have an assembly line system now, but rather than open up the field a bit, reducing the number of stages when the line is not as big, this creates a minimum amount of movement. Movement is the key to breaking up a stage in a square range type situation vs the field matches we see out west.

Right now, rifle matches are run like pistol matches, just as noted above. We have a small lane with a minimum amount of movement, and by the movement, I don't mean changing position on a barricade, I mean actually moving. Even at RO, we used to a few Big Stages mixed in with a lot of little ones or even paper to keep the round count up.

What you want to do is mix it up, I would start someone back a bit further, Offhand shooting Right, to get over an obstacle or for snapshot when time and opportunity don't present themselves to establish a better position.

Start back, give them 2 or 3 quick snapshots inside 300 yards with bigger plates, like 66%, full chest. Then move, to other positions from the standing, why, because standing is quick and gives us mobility, otherwise just build a better position.

The issue is many current match directors are just regurgitating the same old shit without answering the WHY Behind it. you can do all the same stuff in a lot of ways, but match the WHY to the requirement of the stage. Shoot over this, move to a better position, shoot on this move to a better position shot prone. The skillset is to shoot the close targets as fast as possible and then to build better positions as the distances open up, as distance gives you time.

A great example, we shot the CD Match and they had a pistol assault stage that was backward and I told Jimmy the stage was backward, the Close shots had the longest time, the farther out you got the quicker you needed to shoot. That is backwards, if someone is standing 10ft from me I need to be faster than him, if I am 50 yards away, I have a lot more time to set up the shot.

Using snap shots for standing on closer but bigger targets should be the whistle to start the stage in motion. Not to camp out holding our rifles up for 90 seconds to hammer one target 10 times, that is just a round count waster


In handgun you spray the targets, with the precision rifle you should be looking at the weapon system and it's intended use. Looking at the game and inserting a precision rifle system to it is backward. The Rifle is the tool of the game, use it as required, or how you would in a practical sense just under gaming conditions of movement and compressed time.
 
PS,

Just off the top of my head, really fast cause my mind is still on it,

With a 10 yard wide lane, with 10 yards to the front of the line, you can do a simple stage with offhand included like this:

Shooter starts back from low ready engages 1 66% IPSC at 300 yards from standing with 2 shots. (Place the barricade directly in front of them so it almost appears as if you are shooting over it. Then the shooter will move up to the barricade, (should be at least 10 yards sprint. Then engage a 45% IPSC at 600 yards from any position on the barricade with 3 shots. Next the shooter will move laterally to a prone position to shooting a 10" plate with 3 shots.

That is a pretty simple stage to put up without it being overly contrived. The move and target sizes will be the deciding factor, how do you manage the time, do you have enough time or will some shooters race to the of the stage missing more than they hit.

We have a practical snapshot situation while employing the RIFLE as it was intended. You can start off the right side of the lane with the standing shot, move straight forward with the barricade 2 yards over, then move to the other side about 8 yards of movement to the prone shot.
 
You’re correct that the original intent of matches is to be practical.

However, practical/tactical rifle designs have evolved. You’ll rarely, if ever, take an offhand shot with a modern tactical rifle. In a tactical environment, you’d be better off moving to cover (too long to get a good sight picture and get shot off before target moves or is
), and in a hunting scenario, better off finding a better shot (when using a tactical style rifle. A hunting weight rifle is different).

Since you’re using Jacob/RO as an example, I’ll use the offhand stage at the Brawl last year. It was kneeling, at somewhere around 100yds, and it was either a 66% or full size ipsc (I cant remember, but it was big).

Weapon systems change over time and so do tactics.

Shooting tactical style rifles offhand/unsupported is more or less the same as reticle ranging, a legacy skill.


I agree with all of your points. I'm in the "Keep them in, But make them Attainable" camp. The key words you used are rarely, and skill. I believe they need to be in the list of skills of a competent marksman. When I was enlisted we were expected to have the ability to take snap shots, but like
I said way back in the thread they were close in say less that 100 and man sized.

But maybe I'm looking for the Practical Rifle Series, and my fear is that doesn't exists anymore. I feel like a lot of the people who have posted in this thread seem to feel the same way. Keep them but lets not make them a nit's ass at 1000 in a hurricane.
 
Never/not enough practice off hand is the issue here. 3 moa is not unreasonable. 20 pounds is not unreasonable. If anything the lowest power magnification your scope can go down to will be a problem as even 4X makes a little wind much more challenging.
I began shooting on my high school Free Rifle team in 1969. Offhand is easy because I have put in the time practicing. 3 moa is half way between the 7 and 8 rings on a international rifle target. (iron sight position shooting at 300)
The highpower offhand target has a 3 moa 10 ring. Far from unreasonable, 3 moa offhand is an equalizer that punishes those who try too hard to buy points in the long range equipment race.

Advice from an old coach:
Build a 22 rim-fire that feels like your main competition rifle and practice offhand. Turn a weakness into a strength.
 
Damn, this must be why I never finished higher than 12th at the USPSA Nationals. Here, I was actually aiming all my shots... the top guys must be using this "spray" technique!

If that is your take on my post, you are too stupid to be on this forum....

You know what i mean, you can shoot multiple shots to fix A zone misses

This is a clear example of why NOTHING EVER CHANGES

because douchebags want to change the subject and deflect from the real conversation at hand
 
Hold on there, thats not really how pistol matches work.

Youre a fucking asshole too

You think... keep proving my points, post after post, deflect, change the subject,

This is not about handgun matches, and using shorthand should not take away from the main points, which you clearly don't understand
 
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For purposes of offhand shooting, no I don’t think it makes a difference, I don’t shoot my rifle any worse off hand than I do a 16 lbs rifle. I don’t find a 20lb rifle to be heavy.

That’s great, what size target? I bet it’s not 6” at 200yd.

If you don't find a 20lb rifle too heavy then clearly you haven't carried one longer or farther than a little stroll to the next shooting stage.
 
Four pages so far regarding off-hand shooting in PRS, and we already have numerous references to tripods, triggers, and now rifle weight.

I have a solution, create a new "Limited" Class in PRS. All those people who advocate limits on the use of tripods, trigger weight, rifle weight, bag size or numbers, etc. can all be part of the Limited Class, and hopefully be happy ...is that possible? Where as, Open Class will have no retrictions on gear, or it's use during a match ...or in other words, if you carry it, you can use it.

Wonder which Class most would shoot in?
 
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Four pages so far regarding off-hand shooting in PRS, and we already have numerous references to tripods, triggers, and now rifle weight.

I have a solution, create a new "Limited" Class in PRS. All those people who advocate limits on the use of tripods, trigger weight, rifle weight, bag size or numbers, etc. can all be part of the Limited Class, and hopefully be happy ...is that possible? Where as, Open Class will have no retrictions on gear, or it's use during a match ...or in other words, if you carry it, you can use it.

Wonder which Class most would shoot in?

my bet is open...

then the handful of limited guys would complain when an "open pro" took a limited rifle and waxed em all with it