I have shot a bunch of matches with an Offhand stage, not my favorite to say the least.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
I have mixed feelings. On the one hand it is a good marksmanship technique to learn and have in the tool box. On the other hand, MDs are asking to have a round leave the range.
Shot a match recently, OP was at this one too, 9” plate, 10 shots, offhand at 300 yards. The top shooter in the match zeroed it, I took 3rd, zeroed it.
I saw rounds skipping off the dirt 200 yards in front of the Target, and this is a range where muzzles up was not allowed because of the area surrounding the range if a round were to leave the area. Aside from being stupid, like playing baseball with a tennis racket. There is a serious safety issue with it.
Shooting off hand is a skill that takes practice, but these 18-23lb rifles that excel everywhere else in the sport are not designed for this discipline in mind. It’s no longer marksmanship at this point, but sheer luck.
I saw rounds skipping off the dirt 200 yards in front of the Target, and this is a range where muzzles up was not allowed because of the area surrounding the range if a round were to leave the area. Aside from being stupid, like playing baseball with a tennis racket. There is a serious safety issue with it.
Shooting off hand is a skill that takes practice, but these 18-23lb rifles that excel everywhere else in the sport are not designed for this discipline in mind. It’s no longer marksmanship at this point, but sheer luck.
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Legacy skill. Im not saying it should be in every match but it should be thrown in every now and then. Short distance and big target. I hate shooting off hand (especially with an MTU barreled AI) but i understand the importance of it.
Agree, totally fine with a short distance and a big target. Which is about the only thing it would be really used for.
No hunter or otherwise is going to take a standing shot at a 9” target at 300 yards.
I agree, and to @Patruck825 point, an ethical hunter is not taking a shot on an animal offhand, especially at distance.
I understand that it is a legacy skill, and I am cool with that. However, not when it is for the entire stage, if it was incorporated to a stage with transitions and a barricade it would make more sense...to me anyways.
I understand that it is a legacy skill, and I am cool with that. However, not when it is for the entire stage, if it was incorporated to a stage with transitions and a barricade it would make more sense...to me anyways.
Better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Hi,
But if you are going to base PRS comps on what would or would not be done in a hunting situation......LOL...you would be removing half the stages and swapping weapons systems out completely
Sincerely,
Theis
But if you are going to base PRS comps on what would or would not be done in a hunting situation......LOL...you would be removing half the stages and swapping weapons systems out completely
Sincerely,
Theis
I don’t think he meant that we should base every PRS stage off of a hunting situation. But at least try to keep things practical.Hi,
But if you are going to base PRS comps on what would or would not be done in a hunting situation......LOL...you would be removing half the stages and swapping weapons systems out completely
Sincerely,
Theis
Hunting or tactical, there is no practical reason for taking a standing shot at 300 yards at a 9” target with a 20lb rifle.
Especially at a range where you’re not even allowed to carry your rifle or load and make ready with the muzzle up.
If it isn't safe at a certain range then that needs to be determined by the match director. There are plenty of ranges where it is safe. I would always leave it as a possibility. Having a heavy rifle is not required. You have no one to blame but yourself for the weight of your rifle. I get that most shooters have a 18lb+ rifle at this point, but when a MD designs a stage where that is a disadvantage just keep in mind that you chose to have a heavy rifle because it is an advantage on most other stage.
All that being said, I believe that a reasonable size target for an offhand shot is about 6 to 8 MOA. Something like a full size IPSC at 200 yards. I am more in favor of MD's requiring kneeling, sitting, and prone off hand rather than a standing off hand shot.
Off hand shooting is an important and practical skill. Just because you never practice it and don't do it well, doesn't mean it should be removed from competitions. If it is safe to do, it should be an option for match directors.
That's my opinion.
All that being said, I believe that a reasonable size target for an offhand shot is about 6 to 8 MOA. Something like a full size IPSC at 200 yards. I am more in favor of MD's requiring kneeling, sitting, and prone off hand rather than a standing off hand shot.
Off hand shooting is an important and practical skill. Just because you never practice it and don't do it well, doesn't mean it should be removed from competitions. If it is safe to do, it should be an option for match directors.
That's my opinion.
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I think punishment for using the heavyweight guns.
I'd go one farther and say there is no "practical" reason to have a 20+ lbs rifle. Or maybe off hand shots are a way match directors are trying to limit those type of rifles??
I know my Hunting rig is no where near that weight.
Beat me to it. I think PRS as it's done today left 'practical' behind some time ago.
Hi,
IMO we have to be honest here..... I think "Practical" has left PRS matches a long time ago, right?
How many competitors have the practical need to shoot from "rocking boat" stage?
How many competitors have the practical need to shoot weak sided from "roof top" stage?
PRS has long evolved into a competition based on time, movement and stage difficulty.....not practicality. Which there is NOTHING wrong with that, but call it what it is....
Sincerely,
Theis
IMO we have to be honest here..... I think "Practical" has left PRS matches a long time ago, right?
How many competitors have the practical need to shoot from "rocking boat" stage?
How many competitors have the practical need to shoot weak sided from "roof top" stage?
PRS has long evolved into a competition based on time, movement and stage difficulty.....not practicality. Which there is NOTHING wrong with that, but call it what it is....
Sincerely,
Theis
Really? Even the military’s own m40a5 is 16.5lbs, I don’t think an extra 3.5lbs is crossing territory into the ridiculous for a rifle.
PRS is a precision rifle competition, with what weight rifle can you really call
your shots precise when standing up at 300 yards?
Funny I have been ignoring all the PRS stuff for the last few months, and honestly, it has been refreshing to not see any of it. Then I got the email updating things with a State of the Series info, and it had me chuckling a bit.
The contrived nature of some stages can be morphed into a better stage with a few simple tweaks.
Our rifles are not service rifles designed for offhand, that is number one, sure in a pinch, we can shoot them that way, but why. Even in the USMC when we had a rifle much better designed for shooting it like a hunting rifle we choose to support it and use a partner's shoulder. In modern deployment, there is a possibility of a snapshot where the operator would come around a corner and be faced with a threat with little or no time to react so you have to fight with what is in your hand.
Instead, if you are a Match Director reading this and you want to test the skill and use an offhand technique, try thinking about the shot.
Have a full-sized IPSC in closer and rely on speed and movement to push you to the next target. Move up, two shots on a bigger target, hit and move to the other parts of the stage to finish. In other words, fight to your position after being compromised.
The practical nature left a long time ago, but that doesn't mean it cannot be designed better.
Lack of imagination, but with 400 matches and 6000 shooters it's just an assembly line now with little or no practical application beyond your ability to buy a hit with better equipment.
The contrived nature of some stages can be morphed into a better stage with a few simple tweaks.
Our rifles are not service rifles designed for offhand, that is number one, sure in a pinch, we can shoot them that way, but why. Even in the USMC when we had a rifle much better designed for shooting it like a hunting rifle we choose to support it and use a partner's shoulder. In modern deployment, there is a possibility of a snapshot where the operator would come around a corner and be faced with a threat with little or no time to react so you have to fight with what is in your hand.
Instead, if you are a Match Director reading this and you want to test the skill and use an offhand technique, try thinking about the shot.
Have a full-sized IPSC in closer and rely on speed and movement to push you to the next target. Move up, two shots on a bigger target, hit and move to the other parts of the stage to finish. In other words, fight to your position after being compromised.
The practical nature left a long time ago, but that doesn't mean it cannot be designed better.
Lack of imagination, but with 400 matches and 6000 shooters it's just an assembly line now with little or no practical application beyond your ability to buy a hit with better equipment.
Shoot, I clicked on this because I’m trying to improve my off hand game for hunting.Hi,
But if you are going to base PRS comps on what would or would not be done in a hunting situation......LOL...you would be removing half the stages and swapping weapons systems out completely
Sincerely,
Theis
You know what made me laugh out loud? Your sig pic is of a shooter (you?) shooting standing and off hand.
It also makes me laugh to hear you guys complain about a stage because you couldn’t score well on it. More and more I see the PRS crowd that comes to shoot our matches complain because every stage in the COF isn’t pretty much like every other stage they shoot all of the time elsewhere. I laugh because it’s sad.
If you really had guys shooting over the berm and hitting the ground 100 yards before the target, then I’d say that it’s high time this Should be put back into rotation. It’s sad that we now have “top competitors” that cannot hit anything unless they have their rifle supported by two bags and a tripod.
Maybe it should be renamed to precision almost benchrest shooting.
While I agree that a 9” target at 300 yards is excessively small for a standing offhand shot for most people, We now have guys who can’t hit that 9” plate at 100 yards. That’s what I’m hearing.
You know what made me laugh out loud? Your sig pic is of a shooter (you?) shooting standing and off hand.
It also makes me laugh to hear you guys complain about a stage because you couldn’t score well on it. More and more I see the PRS crowd that comes to shoot our matches complain because every stage in the COF isn’t pretty much like every other stage they shoot all of the time elsewhere. I laugh because it’s sad.
If you really had guys shooting over the berm and hitting the ground 100 yards before the target, then I’d say that it’s high time this Should be put back into rotation. It’s sad that we now have “top competitors” that cannot hit anything unless they have their rifle supported by two bags and a tripod.
Maybe it should be renamed to precision almost benchrest shooting.
While I agree that a 9” target at 300 yards is excessively small for a standing offhand shot for most people, We now have guys who can’t hit that 9” plate at 100 yards. That’s what I’m hearing.
I know, ironic right? But the thing is I don’t have a problem with off hand shooting, so as long as the target and distance is appropriate. The picture is from big dog steel a couple weekends ago, in which I took the match high score for that stage. The stage was designed appropriately.
I can bomb a stage just like anyone else is able to, but when an entire match worth of shooters zero a stage, including the guys who dropped 3
Shots for the whole day outside of that stage, it’s a stage design issue, not a shooter issue.
I agree with this, but your thread title says something a bit different as it reads. It reads that offhand stages should get gone. Not that they need to be sensibly designed like all stages should be.
I’ve shot some very good, but challenging stages that started with a few offhand or improvised quick support shots before moving to a more stable position. I think such things should be in the repertoire.
I started the thread, and you are right, the title is misleading. I am in full agreement that Offhand can be a portion of a PRS match. As you mentioned, starting with a few offhand shots at a reasonably sized target, them moving to stable or barricade position, makes a ton of sense and adds a good challenge to a match.
I unfortunately have not had that experience. My experience is the same as @Patruck825 , taking a 300 yard offhand shot at a 9" plate. High score on the stage was 2 out of 9. Top three shooters had goose eggs! I think we are all in agreement here, that unnecessary.
As for the rifle weights, I could care less... If you want to pack on the pounds then be prepared to wield that beast.
We are all talking about a “practical shot.” Myself I’ve never had to take a shot off of a rooftop outside of a PRS match. On the other hand can’t count the number of times I’ve shot offhand at an animal.
I like how offhand shooting was incorporated into the CO NRL match a few weeks ago. You had a decently challenging stage with 4 positions and movement. If you missed, you had to stop and shoot offhand at a full size IPSC at 100 yards before you could resume engaging the distant targets. No points for the offhand impact, essentially just a time penalty and the punishment of having to shoot offhand.
You don't think 3.5lbs makes a difference? then why do you shoot a 20lbs rifle and not a 16.5 lbs one...…………..cause it makes a difference. When you got to hold it out there every ounce matters, for the good it does, and for the bad.
I had to qualify with a rifle standing with iron sights at 200, and so did all those guys using those m40's. While I was in, and in an Infantry billet, we had to prove to our CO that we could use our rifles with either hand do to urban environments and conditions. Haji don't care if its your off hand. But to be fair we never had to engage at more than 100y that way.
Now I didn't call them "ridiculous" those are your words, I insinuated that they were impractical and maybe offhand shots were a Match Directors way of showing that.
And I agree with the point that it is not called the practical rifle series......and I guess that is what it is.
For purposes of offhand shooting, no I don’t think it makes a difference, I don’t shoot my rifle any worse off hand than I do a 16 lbs rifle. I don’t find a 20lb rifle to be heavy.
That’s great, what size target? I bet it’s not 6” at 200yd.
Service Rifle High Power shooters shoot clean 20 round strings at 200 yards (7" 10 ring) with 2 sighters.
A 10" plate at 300 substends that same target size to 300 yards.
Sounds like a stage with a competitive opportunity if everyone was bombing it.
A 10" plate at 300 substends that same target size to 300 yards.
Sounds like a stage with a competitive opportunity if everyone was bombing it.
Nope it was 12"...…..with irons.
So you shoot a 16lb rifle as equally poorly as a 20lb one in the off hand?
I find that hard to believe. I shoot my 8lb hunter off hand much better than my JP or my APO. Now I practice with the 8lb in the off hand way more than the other 2, but maybe that's the difference, I'm hunting for my family not playing a game.
Maybe its time to practice the stages your not good at?
Maybe its time to go to the gym?
So you shoot a 16lb rifle as equally poorly as a 20lb one in the off hand?
I find that hard to believe. I shoot my 8lb hunter off hand much better than my JP or my APO. Now I practice with the 8lb in the off hand way more than the other 2, but maybe that's the difference, I'm hunting for my family not playing a game.
Maybe its time to practice the stages your not good at?
Maybe its time to go to the gym?
I don’t shoot offhand poorly, and I do practice shooting off hand.
Do you read any of what you reply to?
I read, a tennis player plays tennis well with a tennis racket. Of course they do.
Next time I’ll bring my service rifle to shoot PRS with so I can be competitive on the 1 stage where it would be useful.
I'd call that pretty POORLY, wouldn't you???
And my comments about the weight of a rifle are directly regarding your statement about an 18-23lb rifle being not designed to shoot these type of stages.
I still find this hard to believe, but if you missed with a 20 maybe you'd miss with a 16.5 too
So, yup I read it, and to recap. You zero'd a stage that your 20lb rifle isn't designed to shoot, and instead of looking at the rifle or the training you want the stage that you zero'd removed. But that's not poor shooting it's poor stage design because your rifle isn't built to play that game?
That sound about right?
How come nearly everyone zeroed the stage?
How did I manage to take the stage high score at a recent national match among some of the top shooters in the country at a similar but more appropriately designed stage, if skill is the issue?
You tell me........maybe it was sheer luck as your first post suggests?
What was different from that stage to this one? You say it was more appropriately designed. How so? What made it more appropriate?
The thread is "Can we stop shooting Offhand..." and your subsequent posts seem to offer reasons as to why "we" should. But I wonder would you say the same thing about the offhand where you were stage high shooter or just the one that everyone did poorly at?
Offhand is a skill, and I think that skill is an appropriate one for a percision marksman to have. If you train at it and you took stage high at a recent event performing that skill then it sounds like you agree. Then why remove it from a match director's options? We don't remove skills we're not good at, we train until we're good at them.
Now if the thread title read that match xyz's offhand stage was unsafe because of example a,b,c then I can get behind it. But removing a stage because we're not good at it or because our game guns perform poorly then I say no. Train or redesign the tool to perform better.
What was different from that stage to this one? You say it was more appropriately designed. How so? What made it more appropriate?
The thread is "Can we stop shooting Offhand..." and your subsequent posts seem to offer reasons as to why "we" should. But I wonder would you say the same thing about the offhand where you were stage high shooter or just the one that everyone did poorly at?
Offhand is a skill, and I think that skill is an appropriate one for a percision marksman to have. If you train at it and you took stage high at a recent event performing that skill then it sounds like you agree. Then why remove it from a match director's options? We don't remove skills we're not good at, we train until we're good at them.
Now if the thread title read that match xyz's offhand stage was unsafe because of example a,b,c then I can get behind it. But removing a stage because we're not good at it or because our game guns perform poorly then I say no. Train or redesign the tool to perform better.
The tears on this post are astounding. "The bad man made me shoot on a stage I couldn't use my tripod and 3 bean bags on. Its obviously luck if anyone could hit it."
bwahahahaha.
I love offhand/positional stages because I can gain on 99% of the competitors. Its actually a SKILL that has to be developed and you are not able to buy a crutch to improve your scores.
I wish they had more of these stages - IE gear limiting stages. NO GEAR, shooter ready? engage.
DT
bwahahahaha.
I love offhand/positional stages because I can gain on 99% of the competitors. Its actually a SKILL that has to be developed and you are not able to buy a crutch to improve your scores.
I wish they had more of these stages - IE gear limiting stages. NO GEAR, shooter ready? engage.
DT
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Well, for the second time, I didn’t start or name the thread.
See my post where I said “I don’t mind shooting off hand so as long as the targets and distances are appropriate.”
I’m not saying offhand shooting should be removed, I never said that. I commented because I know the OP, and I know why he started this thread. We shot a match where we had to stand and shoot a 9” target at 300 yards for 10 shots, and everyone zeroed the stage. This same MD has a reputation for these “ F You” stages, and our opinion was the majority at this match.
PRS does score analysis for matches for a reason, because they tell a story about stage design and how MDs are running matches. When hit percentages are too high, stages are redesigned to be harder, and vice versa. You can tell when there is a lack of imagination, and when an MD creates a stage they don’t even think is possible themselves.
My biggest problem with the PRS and NRL to an extent. "Oh, you have a field and want to put on a match even though you started shooting last year?"
Redic. Crazy. Absurd. Min 5 years of MD experience before you are even considered to run a match SHOULD be a bare minimum.
Regards,
DT
THAT is a sentiment I can get behind.
There are quality matches, and there are shit matches. Had this single stage been the only “wtf” of the day I probably wouldn’t have even bothered commenting, but it was filled to the brim with stupid shit. We shot off an exercise ball for fck sake.
seems like people on this post have a hard time grasping a good off hand stage vs a trash one
like frank mentioned, offhand is for quick/big/close/dirty...its not mid to long range precision....miss me with the service rifle and coats and gloves, its not the same
if youve shot both types of good/bad stages, you know them soon as you see them, and can understand both sides
ie 1k yds off hand in 25-30 mph winds (yup, have had to do it)...sure all the offhand guys in this thread would have cleaned up lol
like frank mentioned, offhand is for quick/big/close/dirty...its not mid to long range precision....miss me with the service rifle and coats and gloves, its not the same
if youve shot both types of good/bad stages, you know them soon as you see them, and can understand both sides
ie 1k yds off hand in 25-30 mph winds (yup, have had to do it)...sure all the offhand guys in this thread would have cleaned up lol
Would like this twice if I could.
Ok, I get what your saying. So tell me what was the difference between this "F You" stage and the other one you mentioned? I won't change my stance on off hand as a whole but will certainly get me to where your coming from!!
This thread says volumes about the recent change in matches and the shooters who compete.
Kinda Sad
Kinda Sad
I think some folks on this thread are drilling down a little too far. I started the thread...mainly because I have had a few bad experiences, but also because I knew it would be a good debate.
That being said, we are all saying the same thing at the end of the day. There is a place for offhand in PRS and theres also a reasonable distance and target sizes for offhand.
Target size has everything to do with it. An MD who’s putting on a PRS match knows what kind of rifles are used for this discipline. Just as an MD for a high power match knows what’s being used in his match. Seeing a 9” target on an off hand stage at 300 yards at a PRS match is like seeing a 1 moa target at 1300 yards at a high power match. You know it’s a shit stage, everyone around you knows it’s a shit stage, and it’s designed to do one thing. Give the MD a laugh, knowing full well he couldn’t put a bullet anywhere near the thing.
I love a challenge and seeing the MDs push shooters to the limit of what’s capable.
But like I said, when shooters that are winning 2 day matches, are zeroing your stage. It’s not a shooter issue.
Like what??? like 5 people have said similar but no one has said I think x" at y yards is about the limit?
Like I won't take an off hand shot at a deer at much over 100, and then only if it looks like it's about to wind me while stalking.
Now that's an animal, and not steel. I'm not blowing a hunting spot or wounding an animal unless I'm dead sure.
The better of the stages we had been talking about had a 66% IPSC at 320 yards and I think that was very challenging, but doable if you practice off hand. I think that’s really where these stages should be, challenging, but possible. And you can tell by the scores if it was just that.
Like a full IPSC from 200-350 yards. I would also like to see it paired with something else too, off of a barricade or prone.
I agree on the hunting situation...
