Hello, I've been shooting for a long long time, but always with my parents guns that have already been set up for me. Recently I got my own gun, an Axis II XP chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. I had heard very good things about said caliber and I wanted one. But I've put probably around 30 or 40 rounds through the gun and I still can't get it to zero. Before my last try, I had tightened the scope rings to the rail, cleaned the barrel, and added a bipod to the gun, but none of it seemed to help. It hits a paper plate at about 100yds and that's it. I know there must either be something wrong with me or the gun and I just cannot figure it out. Any help is appreciated.
- Thread starter Viper13
- Start date
What scope? And is it known to be in good mechanical condition?
These videos might help:
It’s hard to answer your questions with limited info, but:
1. Are you using a torque wrench? If not, a Wheeler FAT wrench is a good way to ensure you aren’t damaging anything by over-tourquing.
2. As asked above, what scope and has it been reliable in the past?
3. What are you normal groups with rifles that have already been set up? If it hits a paper plate, how big are the groups? Are you putting a target in the center and aiming at that target each time?
It’s hard to answer your questions with limited info, but:
1. Are you using a torque wrench? If not, a Wheeler FAT wrench is a good way to ensure you aren’t damaging anything by over-tourquing.
2. As asked above, what scope and has it been reliable in the past?
3. What are you normal groups with rifles that have already been set up? If it hits a paper plate, how big are the groups? Are you putting a target in the center and aiming at that target each time?
The scope is still the standard one that came with the gun. A Bushnell Baron 3-9x40 I believe, it came with the gun so I just assumed it would be in working condition. I don't have a torque wrench, but the scope was literally wiggling around on the rail so I just tightened it enough to stop that. I can shoot my little .22 rifle in probably about half-inch groups at 100yds so I didn't immediately assume that I was the issue. So, the groups on this gun are kind of weird. I'll do a 3 shot group and they'll be within an inch maybe (still not as good as my .22 lol) and then I'll move my scope like 2 clicks and sometimes nothing will change while other times I'll hit the opposite side of the paper. Yeah, I'm shooting an actual target, I just said paper plate to approximate the area that I'm hitting so I'm aiming at the center every time.
My money is on your scope being bad. Try another one. I had a particular scope that drove me nuts. It'd hold zero for a few shots then toss shots 8" away. I chased my zero around until it dawned on me that the scope was bad. I returned the scope under its lifetime warranty. Mounting a different brand of scope made the problem go away. The replacement I received for my bad scope shot loose almost immediately so I returned it too. This happened 3 times. I left the last replacement scope in it's sealed box and gave it away.
Very interesting. I had originally planned to swap the scope for an Athlon optics one eventually, but it's gonna take some time for me to build up that kind of cash lol.
I would consider this, if possible:
Take your 22 out and shoot that. Verify that it’s shooting well. Do a box test of something to make sure the scope on that is shooting well and returning to zero. If it is, take it off and mount it on your new rifle. If your new rifle works now, you’ve verified it’s the scope that’s the issue. Send it back to Bushnell. If the rifle is still not shooting after borrowing your trusty 22 scope, you narrowed down that it’s probably the rifle or the scope base. However, you’ve gotta make sure your comfortable moving the scope around, torquing it down, ensuring the 22 scope can handle 6.5 recoil, etc. I wouldn’t want you to you torque it too much and damage the 22 scope now you have 2 rifles that won’t shoot.
I would call up Savage and/or maybe Bushnell. See what they say. I’ve had decent luck with Savage CS when I had extraction issues. If you call Bushnell they advertise a good warranty as well.
Sorry you’re having issues on a new gun. Has happened to me and it’s the absolute worst trying to diagnose the issue and reduce the variables. Keep your chin up, and shoot that 22 in the meantime!
Thanks for the encouragement! I would definitely worry about changing scopes and such because I'm new to setting up guns and I don't have a torque wrench so like you said I'd be concerned about messing up the .22 scope that I know works well. I'm planning to do one more round of testing with the gun in a few days and if I can't get it after that I'll definitely put in a call to Savage or Bushnell.
+1 on trying a different scope.
I have a couple other thoughts.
Before changing anything, have someone else shoot it. That could show if its something you're doing or if it's gun related.
It also might be worth your time to have someone more familiar with setting scopes up to double check everything.
I have a couple other thoughts.
Before changing anything, have someone else shoot it. That could show if its something you're doing or if it's gun related.
It also might be worth your time to have someone more familiar with setting scopes up to double check everything.
Funny/sad story for you. I have a very good friend who is way into guns but frankly only actually shoots five or six shots a year on his annual deer hunting trip. The guy works a LOT of hours/week. The second year the Ruger Precision Rifle came out he snatched one up in .308 then ordered a cheap scope and the cheapest ring set he could find for it on Amazon . Months later the stars aligned just right and he was able to come along with us to the range to sight the rifle in. He went over to the 50 yard range while my regular shooting buddy and I were at the 100 yard range a few steps away (50 and 100 yard ranges are right next to each other). After about 20 minutes I wondered what was taking so long and checked on him. He couldn't keep his shots on a large paper plate at 50 yards and was more than a little discouraged (if I'd have kept my mouth shut I might've gotten the rifle pretty cheap). After he reassured me that he'd tightened everything properly I grabbed the rear of the scope and found I was able to slide it back and forth in the much oversized rings. We all had a great chuckle over his "frugality" and the price of a set of name brand rings. A week or two went by and he'd bought the rings I suggested and wanted to try to get it sighted in again. I still had my doubts because of the scope he'd bought but whatever. It took 3 shots to get it on target and before we left for the day he'd shot his first ever 1" group at 200 yards. We all learned lessons from his experience.
How did this turn out? Swap scopes? Torque?
Can you post a picture?
Was helping a guy out a little while back his rings were to low. When tightened down, the bell was touching the barrel. Needless to say didn’t work well. If this was a factory setup you naught new I wouldn’t expect something like that to be the case, but fresh eyes see things you’d want to slap yourself for not noticing.
just wondering how it turned out though..
Can you post a picture?
Was helping a guy out a little while back his rings were to low. When tightened down, the bell was touching the barrel. Needless to say didn’t work well. If this was a factory setup you naught new I wouldn’t expect something like that to be the case, but fresh eyes see things you’d want to slap yourself for not noticing.
just wondering how it turned out though..
So I don't know which rings you have but I bet they are cheap China rings that suck. I would use some high quality rings and appropriate torque value. I have seen cheap rings fail before on other people's rifles.
The combo overall does not seem of very high quality to me so it could be that too. However, I have heard that savage rifles are typically very accurate out of the box.
Also, half inch groups at 100 yards with a 22??? For the love of shooting, post some pics. That is some excellent shooting.
The combo overall does not seem of very high quality to me so it could be that too. However, I have heard that savage rifles are typically very accurate out of the box.
Also, half inch groups at 100 yards with a 22??? For the love of shooting, post some pics. That is some excellent shooting.
I didnt have the heart to ask for a pic... too many claims like that here lately
Cheaper 3-9 type scopes will not pass a box test. They are designed to set and forget. Not to track. So he can forget that. Your advice to try the other scope is dead on though minus the whole tracking and return to zero thing.
my son chased a zero, shot groups the size of a plate sometimes, aske me to shoot it , same thing i. i grab the barrel to move the rifle and i here a clunk, the action screws were loose tighten them up, all is fine, we were blaming the scope and the mounts
So I don't know which rings you have but I bet they are cheap China rings that suck. I would use some high quality rings and appropriate torque value. I have seen cheap rings fail before on other people's rifles.
The combo overall does not seem of very high quality to me so it could be that too. However, I have heard that savage rifles are typically very accurate out of the box.
Also, half inch groups at 100 yards with a 22??? For the love of shooting, post some pics. That is some excellent shooting.
maybe he meant half MOA but i doubt it hahah
Didn't expect more people to jump on here, so here's where we're at. I haven't had a chance to mess with it anymore since the original post, maybe I will sometime this week. I can probably post a pic of the gun later today for whoever asked for that. For those asking to try the other scope, I would but I'm super scared to do so. With my lack of knowledge and no torque wrench I'm afraid I'll screw something up and then neither gun will be accurate. About my .22 groups, I don't think I have one of my past groups on hand to show but I can bring that gun with me next time I'm at the range (range being a farm lol) and try to put down a good group for you. (hopefully, I don't fail spectacularly and disappoint people like I normally do :/)
Viper - Did you check the action screws on the new rifle? [Just picking up on what someone else mentioned]
I completely get not wanting to work on something that you aren't familiar with and screw it up.
Are both of the scopes mounted to a rail or to the action itself? If they are mounted to a rail, there is low risk in taking the rings off the rifles and putting the scope from the 22 onto the new rifle. It really is easy to correctly remount the scope on the 22.
You'd want to remember/take a picture of where the scope on the 22 is mounted.
For the mounts, you can use a 'trick' with allen wrenches. They were designed to put the right torque on by grasping the 'short' side and turning the screw in until the allen wrench is hurting a bit on your thumb/finger.
I have less experience with rings mounted to the action.
I completely get not wanting to work on something that you aren't familiar with and screw it up.
Are both of the scopes mounted to a rail or to the action itself? If they are mounted to a rail, there is low risk in taking the rings off the rifles and putting the scope from the 22 onto the new rifle. It really is easy to correctly remount the scope on the 22.
You'd want to remember/take a picture of where the scope on the 22 is mounted.
For the mounts, you can use a 'trick' with allen wrenches. They were designed to put the right torque on by grasping the 'short' side and turning the screw in until the allen wrench is hurting a bit on your thumb/finger.
I have less experience with rings mounted to the action.
..........what mounts are you talking about??
Sorry. meant rings.
What rings?
This is not good advice. Rings range anywhere from 12 in/lbs to 55 in/lbs depending on which brand.
Things like fix it sticks and such are very affordable. This is a precision game......no need to try to guess. Especially when trouble shooting.
Well, he doesn't have those tools. All he wants to do is determine if the rifle that isn't shooting is because of the scope.
Returning the scope back to the 22 - the rings will be just fine. All the rings I'm familiar with call for a torque range. When I've checked this technique with a torque wrench, they have always been in the range.
By the way, which rings call for 55 in/lbs?
Returning the scope back to the 22 - the rings will be just fine. All the rings I'm familiar with call for a torque range. When I've checked this technique with a torque wrench, they have always been in the range.
By the way, which rings call for 55 in/lbs?
I had the same issue just this past weekend. Drove me nuts. Got home and found that the front screw holding my action to the chassis was loose. Held the rifle vertical and loosened the rear bolt as well. The barreled action slid back slightly to allow the recoil lug to rest in the pocket correctly. Torqued them both down correctly, front bolt first. Problem solved. Had a chat with the shop who assembled the rifle. They usually do good work, so not the end of the world. A few Hornady Match rounds wasted though.
You need to take all the screws out of the rilfe and rings. Degrease everything and add a little blue loctite, but please buy a Wheeler or universal FixItStix wrench to torque them.
Its happening because Savage screws are loose. Its that simple.
I have owned a couple Axis, many Model 10/100, and I pretty well guarantee that is the problem.
Its happening because Savage screws are loose. Its that simple.
I have owned a couple Axis, many Model 10/100, and I pretty well guarantee that is the problem.
Then he needs to go get them and do the job properly. Especially when diagnosing a problem. You don’t try to troubleshoot a problem by inducing an unknown into the equation.
ARC rings are 55 in/lbs.
Viper....i absolutely understand how scary it can be at first but most rifles are pretty darn easy to work with. Perhaps the engineering and original design work was very complex and certainly there are some examples of unique and exquisite design but most standard rifles like yours and mine are pretty simple.
People change scopes and rings and adjust simple things like that with great regularity and without creating problems.
If you have a local gun shop they could probably do this for you but...check out the videos on MidwayUSA or Accurateshooter.com or what's available on this website and it will take you through the basics of installing a rifle scope.
Getting an sufficient quality torque wrench is probably a very good thing to have but if you don't go crazy on the small screws you're not going to hurt anything. Here's a cheap one for $35....if you hate amazon it's $42 at MidwayUSA
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Accurizing-Measurement-Gunsmithing-Maintenance/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=torque+wrench&pd_rd_r=34dc36b7-df8d-4671-ac38-61acc8bbec71&pd_rd_w=7fu6a&pd_rd_wg=7Lkw7&pf_rd_p=c856543c-2236-42b5-8daa-bc8c644a2565&pf_rd_r=J9Z1QSPC7Q00V6740JYN&qid=1590673471&refinements=p_36:1253529011&s=hi&sr=1-6
Not sure which .22 rifle you have....some use really small rail fittings (mine is something like 11mm which is very different from a picatinny type rail) but if they are the same then you should be able to switch them from rifle to rifle without causing a problem. All you would have to do is to loosen up the base screws....you wouldn't have to mess with the ring screws that secure the ring to the rifle scope.
People change scopes and rings and adjust simple things like that with great regularity and without creating problems.
If you have a local gun shop they could probably do this for you but...check out the videos on MidwayUSA or Accurateshooter.com or what's available on this website and it will take you through the basics of installing a rifle scope.
Getting an sufficient quality torque wrench is probably a very good thing to have but if you don't go crazy on the small screws you're not going to hurt anything. Here's a cheap one for $35....if you hate amazon it's $42 at MidwayUSA
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Accurizing-Measurement-Gunsmithing-Maintenance/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=torque+wrench&pd_rd_r=34dc36b7-df8d-4671-ac38-61acc8bbec71&pd_rd_w=7fu6a&pd_rd_wg=7Lkw7&pf_rd_p=c856543c-2236-42b5-8daa-bc8c644a2565&pf_rd_r=J9Z1QSPC7Q00V6740JYN&qid=1590673471&refinements=p_36:1253529011&s=hi&sr=1-6
Not sure which .22 rifle you have....some use really small rail fittings (mine is something like 11mm which is very different from a picatinny type rail) but if they are the same then you should be able to switch them from rifle to rifle without causing a problem. All you would have to do is to loosen up the base screws....you wouldn't have to mess with the ring screws that secure the ring to the rifle scope.
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Those little bent allen or torque wrenches with a long and a short end that comes with scope rings? Tighten the screw up until snug holding onto the short end and then just an 1/8 of a turn more when grabbing by the long end for that little bit of extra oomph. Thats as tight as it needs to be to hold securely.
I think that we may all be missing an important point he made in post #4:
It sounds as if he is introducing the problem by trying to use/adjust the scope using the scope knobs. As mentioned by someone above, the cheap scopes included on most of these inexpensive rack rifles are meant to be set and forget. Do that and quite often you’ll be okay if the rifle is only used a few times a year as a hunter. Not do much for precision rifle.
Unlike many posting on this thread, I don’t recommend that he trade scopes back and forth from his .22. The most likely scenario is that the .22 scope is not mounted on a rail if it’s also a rack gun and that it is also an inexpensive scope that may not appreciated being dialed a lot (a guess on my part).
My opinion, worth just as much as you decide, is that he find zero as close as possible on this scope, then leave the scope alone. Don’t touch the knobs again and save up for that Athlon. Shoot the rifle at 100 until he gets the Athlon, assuming he can find zero and not moving anything on the scope.
It is a good idea to check the action screws to make sure that they are tightened correctly and the recoil lug is firmly seated to the rear.
It sounds as if he is introducing the problem by trying to use/adjust the scope using the scope knobs. As mentioned by someone above, the cheap scopes included on most of these inexpensive rack rifles are meant to be set and forget. Do that and quite often you’ll be okay if the rifle is only used a few times a year as a hunter. Not do much for precision rifle.
Unlike many posting on this thread, I don’t recommend that he trade scopes back and forth from his .22. The most likely scenario is that the .22 scope is not mounted on a rail if it’s also a rack gun and that it is also an inexpensive scope that may not appreciated being dialed a lot (a guess on my part).
My opinion, worth just as much as you decide, is that he find zero as close as possible on this scope, then leave the scope alone. Don’t touch the knobs again and save up for that Athlon. Shoot the rifle at 100 until he gets the Athlon, assuming he can find zero and not moving anything on the scope.
It is a good idea to check the action screws to make sure that they are tightened correctly and the recoil lug is firmly seated to the rear.
@Viper13
If you can swing the cash get a Wheeler FAT wrench. It will save you all the guess work. If you can’t it’s still ok but you just have to trust your judgement and the advice given in this thread. It’s really not a big deal but I’m sure it is to you and you’re afraid of messing something up on your new rifle. Trust me, I’ve been there.
Your Savage does not have a rail. It has 2 piece bases. That is where you need to start. Take the scope out of the rings and the rings off the bases then take the bases off the rifle.
Now turn the rifle upside down and take the 2 action screws out. Clean them with brake cleaner, let them dry and apply a small amount of blue locktite to the threads of those screws. They don’t need much locktite, a dot about the size of #2 pencil lead is all. Now reinstall them with the gun standing vertical on its butt pad. Tighten them with the allen wrench using your thumb and index finger tips only on the short portion of the wrench as tight as you can. Now switch to the long portion as a handle and tighten 1/3-1/2 rotation more. That’s it. Now work the bolt to make sure there is no sticking or resistance. If there is back out the screws an 1/8 turn at a time until the resistance goes away.
Time for the bases. Make sure the mating surfaces are clean and dry on the rifle and bases. Again, clean the screws with brake cleaner, let dry and apply locktite to the threads. This time you only need half as much locktite as you applied to the action screws. Follow the same guidelines as above when tightening and torquing the base screws.
Now for the rings. Clean and dry threads again with brake cleaner. Do not locktite them yet. Install the bottom ring halves onto the bases only finger tight. This is where things get a little wonky. With the gun in a vise or rest or something that will prevent it from falling over place the scope in the bottom ring halves. Place the top ring halves on the scope and screw in the cleaned and dried and locktited ring screws finger tight. Make sure that the gap between the ring halves are the same on both sides. Now loosen the bottom ring nuts and retighten them as much as you can by hand.
Leveling the scope. Loosen the top ring half screws a little, maybe a half a turn. Get behind the rifle and shoulder it while it’s still on it’s rest like you would if you were shooting off a bench. Try to keep the gun as plumb as possible. Now look through the scope and rotate it until the reticle is as plumb with the gun as you can get it. Now tighten the top ring half screws a little more than finger tight while still paying attention the gap between the ring halves. Now get up and walk around for a minute. Go back to the rifle and look through the scope. Does the reticle still look plumb? If not loosen the top ring screws and readjust. Once this step is complete tighten the top ring screws in a cris cross fashion (front left, rear right, front right and rear left) using your thumb and index finger tips a 1/4 turn at a time while making sure the scope does not move. You have to pay attention to this step because the scope can rotate from tightening the screws, especially with lower quality rings. Once the screws are tightened as much as you can with your finger tips torque them down with another 1/3 of a turn.
This is the last step. Lossen the bottom ring nuts, apply locktite and tighten them down as much as you can by hand while pushing the scope towards the muzzle of the rifle. Torque the nuts down by giving them another 1/3 turn with a screw driver while still keeping forward pressure on the scope.
That’s it you’re done. Let the locktite set up overnight. Take your time, take it slow and have fun with it. You’re not going to break your gun, don’t worry about that. This will be a confidence builder for you and give you a sense of pride in the work you’ve done. Your future groups will tighten barring the scope actually being a lemon. Good luck. I hope this helps.
If you can swing the cash get a Wheeler FAT wrench. It will save you all the guess work. If you can’t it’s still ok but you just have to trust your judgement and the advice given in this thread. It’s really not a big deal but I’m sure it is to you and you’re afraid of messing something up on your new rifle. Trust me, I’ve been there.
Your Savage does not have a rail. It has 2 piece bases. That is where you need to start. Take the scope out of the rings and the rings off the bases then take the bases off the rifle.
Now turn the rifle upside down and take the 2 action screws out. Clean them with brake cleaner, let them dry and apply a small amount of blue locktite to the threads of those screws. They don’t need much locktite, a dot about the size of #2 pencil lead is all. Now reinstall them with the gun standing vertical on its butt pad. Tighten them with the allen wrench using your thumb and index finger tips only on the short portion of the wrench as tight as you can. Now switch to the long portion as a handle and tighten 1/3-1/2 rotation more. That’s it. Now work the bolt to make sure there is no sticking or resistance. If there is back out the screws an 1/8 turn at a time until the resistance goes away.
Time for the bases. Make sure the mating surfaces are clean and dry on the rifle and bases. Again, clean the screws with brake cleaner, let dry and apply locktite to the threads. This time you only need half as much locktite as you applied to the action screws. Follow the same guidelines as above when tightening and torquing the base screws.
Now for the rings. Clean and dry threads again with brake cleaner. Do not locktite them yet. Install the bottom ring halves onto the bases only finger tight. This is where things get a little wonky. With the gun in a vise or rest or something that will prevent it from falling over place the scope in the bottom ring halves. Place the top ring halves on the scope and screw in the cleaned and dried and locktited ring screws finger tight. Make sure that the gap between the ring halves are the same on both sides. Now loosen the bottom ring nuts and retighten them as much as you can by hand.
Leveling the scope. Loosen the top ring half screws a little, maybe a half a turn. Get behind the rifle and shoulder it while it’s still on it’s rest like you would if you were shooting off a bench. Try to keep the gun as plumb as possible. Now look through the scope and rotate it until the reticle is as plumb with the gun as you can get it. Now tighten the top ring half screws a little more than finger tight while still paying attention the gap between the ring halves. Now get up and walk around for a minute. Go back to the rifle and look through the scope. Does the reticle still look plumb? If not loosen the top ring screws and readjust. Once this step is complete tighten the top ring screws in a cris cross fashion (front left, rear right, front right and rear left) using your thumb and index finger tips a 1/4 turn at a time while making sure the scope does not move. You have to pay attention to this step because the scope can rotate from tightening the screws, especially with lower quality rings. Once the screws are tightened as much as you can with your finger tips torque them down with another 1/3 of a turn.
This is the last step. Lossen the bottom ring nuts, apply locktite and tighten them down as much as you can by hand while pushing the scope towards the muzzle of the rifle. Torque the nuts down by giving them another 1/3 turn with a screw driver while still keeping forward pressure on the scope.
That’s it you’re done. Let the locktite set up overnight. Take your time, take it slow and have fun with it. You’re not going to break your gun, don’t worry about that. This will be a confidence builder for you and give you a sense of pride in the work you’ve done. Your future groups will tighten barring the scope actually being a lemon. Good luck. I hope this helps.
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So I know you came on here for advice on the scope which everyone has well covered, but based on some of your comments I take it your on the younger side.
At risk of sounding like Oprah. Let me mention something else about your posts. Don't get down on yourself. You came here for help, that's damn smart. Failure is the best teacher, no shame in failing as long as you learn from it and do better the next time. Stick with it learn from the folks here, and all of the mistakes we have made.
Agree with Claymorx 100%. I’ve asked a ton of questions on here, a lot on PM’s. Most of them basic. I’ve learned quite a bit and everyone has been more than helpful because this is something they/we enjoy and there’s nothing better than passing on knowledge. Keep your chin up. Being open to learning and improving is a blessing. God speed.
Well said.
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