Case splitting

Dombern34

Gunny Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
Jun 28, 2019
556
208
Not normally but I do remember a while back I was cleaning them and had the bolts sitting next to each other. Got distracted and couldn’t remember which was which. Did some research and it seemed like it shouldn’t have made a difference. This is the only thing I can think of that could’ve possibly happened on my end
 
  • Like
Reactions: sandwarrior

Dombern34

Gunny Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
Jun 28, 2019
556
208
okay so spoke with the smith late last night.

everyone on here was right (never doubted that) it was a big headspace issue. he claims while recrowning the barrel that some shavings must've gotten around the threads which didn't allow him to torque the barrel back to the correct headspace. he's admitting to not checking the headspace since he "figured" he spun the barrel back to the same place as before. he said he was embarrassed of this and apologized 400 times. he offered to replaced my bolt but I declined since savage didn't charge me for the replacement parts. he also offered a big discount on the next project.

I will be more cautious next time and I think he will too. mistakes happen, I'm just glad I or anyone around me wasn't hurt. I appreciate everyone's time and help with this.
 

celltech

Sergeant of the Hide
PX Member
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2019
198
173
Would like to know how he "figured" he spun it back to the same place. It takes very little threading to start making big changes in the spacing. Sounds like this is his normal operating mode, not really an honest mistake. Who spins a barrel back on and does not at least run some gauges in it?

Don't go back to him....ever.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Hessian
PX Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,236
1,548
in yooperland
You never "spin it back to the same place" with a barrel nut system, i.e. Savage 12 (any 10/110 series). You do that with a fixed shoulder type system, i.e. Rem 700, Win 70.
I agree with what was said earlier that not only is this a headspace issue, it's also a high-pressure issue. If you fired those with the suppressor on, I would check that out before you fired again. You may see a bullet strike in there. If you don't and still want to fire this, I would put it under a sandbag with a string on the trigger to fire it.

There is the possibility you got high pressure from a secondary ignition when the case separated.

All told, I hope that rifle is coming completely apart and is fully inspected before you attempt to fire it again.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Hessian
PX Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,236
1,548
in yooperland
okay so spoke with the smith late last night.

everyone on here was right (never doubted that) it was a big headspace issue. he claims while recrowning the barrel that some shavings must've gotten around the threads which didn't allow him to torque the barrel back to the correct headspace. he's admitting to not checking the headspace since he "figured" he spun the barrel back to the same place as before. he said he was embarrassed of this and apologized 400 times. he offered to replaced my bolt but I declined since savage didn't charge me for the replacement parts. he also offered a big discount on the next project.

I will be more cautious next time and I think he will too. mistakes happen, I'm just glad I or anyone around me wasn't hurt. I appreciate everyone's time and help with this.
As ShtrRdy said, thanks for updating us. It's important issues like this get attention. Mistakes like this can't happen and we continue to have safe operation of firearms.
 

6brshooter

Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
  • Oct 2, 2012
    2,396
    1,012
    Illinois
    Good point Dave. Only thing I can think of is sometimes savages have a short freebore. Maybe bullets were jamming, previously, but with longer headspace were just kissing rifling. Holding it cartridge close enough to get a good fp hit. If headspace was too long, id think a unfired case would not eject/would push too far forward for extractor to grab rim.
     

    hlee

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 14, 2012
    4,332
    4,334
    42
    TX
    In order for the round to fire the rim would have to be within about .030"-.040" of the bolt face. The question I have is if it's GROSS headspace how did the firing pin reach the primer?
    Good point Dave. Only thing I can think of is sometimes savages have a short freebore. Maybe bullets were jamming, previously, but with longer headspace were just kissing rifling. Holding it cartridge close enough to get a good fp hit. If headspace was too long, id think a unfired case would not eject/would push too far forward for extractor to grab rim.
    You can get a 308win to fire in a 30-06. Just sayin...
     

    308pirate

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Apr 25, 2017
    13,064
    17,083
    Let's see here...………..from ANSI-SAAMI Z299.4:
    • 6.5 Creedmoor's head space is 1.541 - 1.551.
    • 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge base to shoulder datum is 1.5368 - 1.5438
    So if headspace is at max spec and base to shoulder is at min spec, you have .0142" gap between bolt head and cartridge base assuming the case shoulder is in contact with the chamber shoulder.

    If we need a max of .030" gap from bolt face to primer (assuming primer is flush, I know I know) for reliable ignition, that means that headspace can be as large as 1.5668" (1.551+.030-.0142) and still go bang.

    Is .0158" over max gross headspace? I don't know. Others who know more than I would have to say.
     

    Dombern34

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 28, 2019
    556
    208
    after the case splitting's, I was getting light FP strikes. so it went from firing to nothing. I was annoyed at this point. I've learned from this though.
     

    DAVETOOLEY

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 14, 2009
    1,888
    1,395
    70
    Oriental, North Carolina
    after the case splitting's, I was getting light FP strikes. so it went from firing to nothing. I was annoyed at this point. I've learned from this though.
    Maybe we can all learn something.
    The light strikes could be from the disc blanked out in the middle of the primers. On blanking the firing pin travels to the rear. That's what breaks triggers. If the firing pin has enough rear travel and the tip comes out of any support area the disc gets inside the bolt.
     

    redneckbmxer24

    Merica!
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Jan 15, 2005
    7,495
    3,152
    Gulf Coast, FL
    That smith is a fucking idiot. I guarantee you that he just spun the barrel back on and torqued the barrel nut where it looked good without ever taking a measurement.

    With over pressure like that from his fuck up that dude would be buying the barreled action from me for what I paid and reimbursing for his services.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: sandwarrior

    sandwarrior

    Sergeant
    Hessian
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 21, 2007
    6,236
    1,548
    in yooperland
    You can get a 308win to fire in a 30-06. Just sayin...
    No, a 300 Savage will fit in a 30-06 case as the taper is exactly the same. The .308 stops about 1/2" out of battery because the shoulder, which is wider, hits the chamber wall of a 30-06.
     

    hlee

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 14, 2012
    4,332
    4,334
    42
    TX
    No, a 300 Savage will fit in a 30-06 case as the taper is exactly the same. The .308 stops about 1/2" out of battery because the shoulder, which is wider, hits the chamber wall of a 30-06.
    Weird, ‘cuz you can’t swing a dead can on the internet without hitting someone that knew a guy that Accidentally fired a 308 in a 30-06 and extracted a straight walled case. That’s what I get for trusting internet lore.

    And, seeing is believing. I just sized a 308 case I had lying around and dropped it into a M1 garand and- sure enough- it stops short
     
    Last edited:

    highart

    Private
    Minuteman
    Nov 24, 2012
    5
    0
    51
    Find a different gunsmith to inspect the rifle. This one isn't good for your health.
     

    SmartDonkey

    Sergeant of the Hide
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 18, 2018
    114
    56
    sandwarrior- hlee, Not really the point of this thread- but this time the internet lore was correct.... a 308 will definitely fire in a 30-06- and you do extract a straight wall case. This one is not even debatable.... I'm not saying all of them will, but many production guns with the loose chambers easily accept a new 308 case. I think part of the problem is also undersized factory ammo... if you mic some factory ammo it will be well under spec. And in the little test that you did to see it it would chamber in your gun- a trip through a full length sizing die does not return it back down to its original size- it is still bigger.

    It may have been designed to not be possible- but in the real world it is very possible.
     

    Lew Hodge

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jul 26, 2020
    17
    8
    IF this is the same barrel and it is seated fully into the receiver, this should not have changed anything. The assumption is that you HAVE shot this gun before without this happening? Have you seen brass being deformed or stressed too much in previous firings? The result here is, I believe, incredibly excessive headspace. I've experience this primer blowout, but not nearly as bad as yours, with .006" too much headspace and with factory loads (Meaning new brass, not reconditioned, not stressed in any previous firings). Some gunsmiths don't do well when it comes to headspace. Have you tried a different batch of ammo???? VERY RISKY! I would get a no-go gauge in any case; they're good to have! If the no-go shows correct headspace, you might very carefully try another batch of a different brand of ammo. Hornady brass is on the soft side. Your gunsmith should be your first stop however, but you need to learn ALL about headspace; it's vital!
     

    sandwarrior

    Sergeant
    Hessian
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 21, 2007
    6,236
    1,548
    in yooperland
    sandwarrior- hlee, Not really the point of this thread- but this time the internet lore was correct.... a 308 will definitely fire in a 30-06- and you do extract a straight wall case. This one is not even debatable.... I'm not saying all of them will, but many production guns with the loose chambers easily accept a new 308 case. I think part of the problem is also undersized factory ammo... if you mic some factory ammo it will be well under spec. And in the little test that you did to see it it would chamber in your gun- a trip through a full length sizing die does not return it back down to its original size- it is still bigger.

    It may have been designed to not be possible- but in the real world it is very possible.
    You can shove as hard as you want. The .30-06 shoulder is .441" at it's shoulder. About 1/2" back, where both the .300 Savage and .308 Win.'s shoulders are, the chamber should be around .447". The .300 Savage has a shoulder of .447" The .308 Win has a shoulder of .454". That is roughly .007" over the size of the 30-06 chamber. Granted, those chambers are 'loose' to accomodate a wide variety of 30-06 cartridges, but not .007" loose at that point.

    It is not even debatable. The .308 was made to NOT fit in anything close to a 30-06 chamber. Col. Townsend Whelen, did not foresee the problem. Unfortunately, there are too many people who don't, won't, or can't see the difference and the associated problems that are about to happen.
     

    Lew Hodge

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jul 26, 2020
    17
    8
    You could also measure the unfired cases in this batch to see if the cases are short. Don't know if you plan on realoding, but if you do I would get some good measuring tools from Brownell's or any other good supplier. A simple Wilson case gauge will tell you a lot; if the cases are too short shoulder to case head, you have definite headspace issues related to that batch of ammo. I see a lot of short cases with Lapua and Wolf in 6.5 Grendel (factory loads and loose brass). It's probably a safety feature (according to them); maybe it ensures feeding, but raises hell with cases and case life if you reload. Lapua cases come apart before the case head after a few firings in the Grendel and it is because the short cases stretch too much. When you resize and squeeze back all that stretch, again giving you the headspace issue, the case walls will soon fail. Eventually you will see a protrusion when you try to resize, almost like a small belt, something less than a belted magnum forward of the case head; the case has failed and will no longer chamber. Hope this isn't too much, but it IS very stasifying to now all you can about your gun and the ammo you fire. I forgot if you are shooting a semi or bolt, but if it is a semi, there's a whole other world of knowledge waiting for you if you're going to be successful. Enjoy and don't get blown up!
     

    Dombern34

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 28, 2019
    556
    208
    The “gunsmith” said he pulled the barrel off and Inspected everything. Said he didn’t see any signs of excessive pressure from the few rounds I did shoot. He said he also didn’t see anything on the borescope. Headspace is now “perfect” and it was off A LOT. He took the fault and admitted it.

    Suppressor is also fine as I didn’t see anything wrong with it or any baffle strikes.

    The gun shot great before the barrel was cut down. All I’ve had done to it is cut the barrel down from 26” to 10” crown and thread. Dropped it in a MDT chassis and those where the first 3 rounds.

    I’ll get it back Friday and once the parts from
    Savage arrive, I’ll rebuild the bolt and see what happens.

    Worst case, I’ll replace the barrel sooner than expected...
     

    Lew Hodge

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jul 26, 2020
    17
    8
    Headspace is not a "perfect" thing. It varies with every different round you put in the gun. If your gun will not close on a no-go gauge that is .005" over SAAMI Max, it tells you that it will close on probably anything shorter, but how short? If it will close on a case that has been sized to .004" longer than SAAMI Max. then you know that with a round that measures exactly SAAMI Max. then you have a .004" headspace with THAT ROUND. The most consistent way to measure this is with a case gauge and I have found LE Wilson to be the best. They're cheap, stainless steel and you can see where every different batch of ammo falls. They will be different. The headspace is the distance between the bolt face and the case head as the round is fired. On Mike Bellm's T/C website, he sells an adapter for your dial indicator which when used with a case gauge of the Wilson type, will instantly tell you the relative length differences (shoulder to case head), between reloaded rounds or factory rounds, once fired resized loads, or reconditioned rounds. Suppose you bought ammo that has been reconditioned, brass once fired, and it was first fired in a gun with excessive headspace, then compressed way to back where it started out, you might encounter a problem like you have, with brass that has already been compromised by overstretching and overresizing. Headspace is the stepchild that is kept in the corner in the gunsmith world by many; it's always changing and frustrating at times. BTW, how do you know that a no-go gauge is .005", over SAAMI Max.? The gauge will tell you! Simple. If your gun does close on the no-go gauge, you have an issue with the gun itself; it shouldn't if it is within specs. Your gunsmith apparently isn't "seeing" anything wrong, but I hope this is based on good measurements, for your sake. Additionally with stainless steel cleaning media available today, fired, cleaned cases look better than factory; you'll never tell the difference by looking at it.
     

    secm

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jun 4, 2018
    80
    18
    I’ve got a savage 12 FV in 6.5CM (Bare with me)

    The only thing I’ve done to this rifle was cut the barrel down to 20” and drop it in a MDT chassis. It came from the factory with a 26” barrel and a cheap stock.

    Today was the first time shooting it since I got the barrel and chassis completed.

    The picture attached is the first 4 shots.

    Extractor is broke as well.

    I was shooting suppressed and Hornady factory ammo. (140 and 129gr)

    Wth is wrong?

    View attachment 7432474
    View attachment 7432475
    View attachment 7432477

    Thank you.
    Had you ever shot this rifle before cutting it down? If so, what results did you get. I would hope your smith removed the barrel for cutting on a lathe rather than by hand. If he did, the head space problem lies with him. That's why I asked if you fired the rifle out of the box. Many shooters like shorter barrels on their rifles. Happen that a 26" tube with a 1:8 or paster twist with 140gr. bullets is a great accuracy combination.

    Last question. Did you cut the original barrel or replace it with the shorter tube?
     

    Dombern34

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 28, 2019
    556
    208
    yes, shot it for two years no problem. once I finally got my can I wanted to cut this one down so the overall length wouldn't be stupid. this is the original factory barrel. just sliced off 6"

    I've got a .308 in the exact same model and I had the barrel cut down from 26" to 16"... shoots great suppressed or not.