Hunting & Fishing Cayuga" Hunting Bullets

[Conrad]

Understood. PVA is in southeastern PA which is pretty low elevation I believe.

Starting to wonder if Coldboremiracle helped with the BC testing of these. He did the terminal testing. He is in UT which would make a difference.

 

[zeroz]

The 151's will kill elk just fine. I wouldn't think it would be worth the brain damage chasing something that wants to keyhole. Seems like even if it did stabilize it would be on the ragged edge. FWIW, Ive watched a lot of elk fall victim to copper 130 class bullets in that same speed range.

 

[deputyrpa]

The 151's will kill elk just fine. I wouldn't think it would be worth the brain damage chasing something that wants to keyhole. Seems like even if it did stabilize it would be on the ragged edge. FWIW, Ive watched a lot of elk fall victim to copper 130 class bullets in that same speed range.

Sure they will, but when I ordered the 151s were not available, so I got the 170s to try out. The G7 is quite remarkable and irresistable, if accurate. Oh well. I should get the 151s in a few days, and I'm sure I can make them sing.

In the meantime, since I have my own range and I finished up my early spring fieldwork, I loaded up 5 more 170s for the heck of it. I developed brain damage at a very young age and have dutifully maintained it.... This time I used a healthy dose of Magpro and squeezed out 2950fps at the top end. Like I thought, it didn't matter. 3-inch splatter group. Now I have 40 170s left to take up space on the shelf, lol.

 

[Conrad]

@bohem

Hi Josh,
A number of took our chances on the 170 cayugas with 1:8 barrels without success. Would you be willing to update the website to say "use 7.5 twist" (delete the 1:8 info), or clarify the DA needed to achieve stability with a 1:8.

Thanks.

 

[Schw15]

Also try more neck tension with the solids

 

[bohem]

@bohem

Hi Josh,
A number of took our chances on the 170 cayugas with 1:8 barrels without success. Would you be willing to update the website to say "use 7.5 twist" (delete the 1:8 info), or clarify the DA needed to achieve stability with a 1:8.

Thanks.

That's a good idea, can you give me some more data on what you are shooting?

What's the DA you're running in and having problems? Jeff did a bunch of testing on the 151's and 170's but I tested them here at 500-700 DA and had no trouble at 700 yards. All the data we publish is tested as close to 0 DA as I can get, which is usually not hard to accomplish in late spring and late fall. In the summer my ranges are usually around 2000-2500 DA and Jeff's are a lot higher.

I know they fly in winter here out of a 7.7tw 7mm and that was about -1500 DA that day.

Are you sure you have actual 1:8's and not something labeled as an 8 but it's really about 8.1-8.15? I pulled out what little hair I have left last summer for a guy who had something labeled as an 8 and when we checked it we got almost 8.5, turns out it was an 8.4 that was improperly marked.

 

[bohem]

Hey Bud,

I have the same barrel on my 7 PRC, and the 170's did not stabilize for me either. I recall being over 2800, but I don't think I progressed through my charges too far because they were keyholing. I may need to revisit a higher charge--that said In my opinion you took it plenty fast enough to achieve stability per PVA. I like PVA, but I think they should add some cushion to their recommendations as we have no way of validating our true twist until the barrel is bought.

Per PVA on the 170: "*The average BC was measured using 8tw 5R rifled barrels and being shot at approximately 2740fps. Different rifling geometry and muzzle velocity will affect the BC in a nominal manner."

They go on to recommend 7.5 for optimal BC, but they make the customer believe an 8 will achieve stability at a relatively low velocity--and then say, no refunds. They need to straight up say use a 7.5.

Can you email me the exact data on your rifle ? [email protected]
I do my best to give the best fidelity data I can provide, not padded data to account for fluff in other company products. That's how the industry has taught people "well the box says 7 twist required but my buddy shot them fine in an 8 so it should be good right?"

If we have a problem with the 170's then I will certainly address it but if you have a slow barrel twist that's unfortunately not something I can do anything about.

 

[Conrad]

That's a good idea, can you give me some more data on what you are shooting?

What's the DA you're running in and having problems? Jeff did a bunch of testing on the 151's and 170's but I tested them here at 500-700 DA and had no trouble at 700 yards. All the data we publish is tested as close to 0 DA as I can get, which is usually not hard to accomplish in late spring and late fall. In the summer my ranges are usually around 2000-2500 DA and Jeff's are a lot higher.

I know they fly in winter here out of a 7.7tw 7mm and that was about -1500 DA that day.

Are you sure you have actual 1:8's and not something labeled as an 8 but it's really about 8.1-8.15? I pulled out what little hair I have left last summer for a guy who had something labeled as an 8 and when we checked it we got almost 8.5, turns out it was an 8.4 that was improperly marked.

I had to do some digging on my notes, but it looks like I was around +3000 DA and took them over 2900 fps. I will try to verify my actual twist in a little while.

Thanks.

 

[Conrad]

Can you email me the exact data on your rifle ? [email protected]
I do my best to give the best fidelity data I can provide, not padded data to account for fluff in other company products. That's how the industry has taught people "well the box says 7 twist required but my buddy shot them fine in an 8 so it should be good right?"

If we have a problem with the 170's then I will certainly address it but if you have a slow barrel twist that's unfortunately not something I can do anything about.

Took a couple measurements to make sure my process was good. Rifling engaged, rod spinning as soon as I started to push, lubed bearings etc.

Looks to be right at 8. Most of my measurements were 8 or barely under. Had one at 8-1/16 but that was before I lubed bearings as this rod sat in the garage a bit.

Camera is centered so it makes it look like lines are inside of 8 on either end but it’s actually pretty dead on to just a hair under 8.

 

[deputyrpa]

The DA when I was shooting was close to zero. 12.2C @29.92Hg @156 MSL. My Proof barrel is a true 1:8, as I measured and confirmed it as soon as I got it.

 

[bohem]

The DA when I was shooting was close to zero. 12.2C @29.92Hg @156 MSL. My Proof barrel is a true 1:8, as I measured and confirmed it as soon as I got it.

Took a couple measurements to make sure my process was good. Rifling engaged, rod spinning as soon as I started to push, lubed bearings etc.

Looks to be right at 8. Most of my measurements were 8 or barely under. Had one at 8-1/16 but that was before I lubed bearings as this rod sat in the garage a bit.

Camera is centered so it makes it look like lines are inside of 8 on either end but it’s actually pretty dead on to just a hair under 8.

Hmmm sounds like we have some sort of larger issue here then, that's good info. Thank you.

 

[bohem]

@Conrad and @deputyrpa can you guys please email me directly?
[email protected]

 

[Conrad]

@Conrad and @deputyrpa can you guys please email me directly?
[email protected]

Email sent. Thanks!

 

[bohem]

Quick Update:
I took out some 170's this morning and shot them to just inside 700yards and didn't have problems with repeatability on steel. I didn't have an issue with a known 8 twist, however it seems there's something happening here that is causing some people issues with this particular bullet.

I made some tweaks today to increase the stability about 6% and I'm making some prototypes (likely) tomorrow. I will test some here as well as send a few off to @Conrad to test in his rifle since it's one of the guns having problems. I will pass along results.

 

[Xtremegunnr]

I’m in Indiana shooting the 170 grain Cayuga with an 8 twist. No issues, but they are going almost 3300 fps

 

[deputyrpa]

@Conrad and @deputyrpa can you guys please email me directly?
[email protected]

Done. Thanks Josh.

 

[deputyrpa]

I’m in Indiana shooting the 170 grain Cayuga with an 8 twist. No issues, but they are going almost 3300 fps

28 Sherman?

 

[coldboremiracle]

Starting to wonder if Coldboremiracle helped with the BC testing of these. He did the terminal testing. He is in UT which would make a difference.

I used the numbers Josh gave me, and they lined up pretty much perfectly. Typical DA's were 5k up to around 10k.

 

[deputyrpa]

I'm finally getting around to running some loads for Cayuga 167s with 7PRC at near sea level. Stand by for a report in a day or two.

 

[deputyrpa]

I loaded up some 167 Cayugas with N565 starting at 68gr to 69.2 gr in 0.3gr increments. I set the COAL at 3.300". Wouldn't you know it that my CED chrony crapped out. To say I was pissed about the chrony and rushing things is fair. I shot the first 4 at 100 yds, and got a 1.25" group which was 1.5 MOA low and 2 MOA left. That was because I had removed the scope and rail to remove the barrel to hone a burr out of the chamber that was causing difficulty to eject. I also decided to reset the headspace a bit tighter than factory - about 1/6th of a thread turn. The stripped bolt will easily close on new Peterson brass, still close on my previously resized Peterson brass, but would not close on the previously fired Peterson brass. I then shot the last load - 69.2 gr. at my 400 yds manhole cover target with a 5.25 MOA come up, no windage adjustment, and hit 4" left and 2" low. I'm fingering that the last load is giving 2930 to 2940fps, and is around a grain below max. Despite the minute sample size but with lots of different rounds down the tube, my little pea brain is calculating that the Cayuga's BC is a tad better than the 175 ELD-X. Super. I'm way behind developing my load for next month's elk hunt, but this bullet is going to be the one i use, for sure. Iffen I can't fix the CED M2 chrony, I'll get the Athalon Pro doppler unit. I needs to know.....

 

[deputyrpa]

Today I ran the Cayuga 151s in the 7PRC (22" Proof 1:8 barrel) , with a now functioning CED M2 Chrony. Because I haven't shot any solids this light in the 7PRC, I started with N565 at 70gr. Wasted some projectiles on the low end, but hey, it's all shootin' fun. Got to it late because I had to get a hay field tedded, so I had the sun in my eyes on my range.

I started with a COAL of 3.1900" I suspect more jump would improve things. I used WRE LR primers. FYI, they are tight in even 5x fired Peterson pockets! I'll try magnum primers of different flavors later.
The numbers:
70gr. - 2894fps
70.5 - 2935
71 - 2943
71.5 - 2949
72 - 2970
72.5 - 3009
72.8 - 3021

The group measured 1.20" at 100yds, and shots 5 & 6 are close. #7 went flying. Those charge weights - 71.5-72gr. - may call for more experimentation, although I'd like to get more velocity. I can probably push it to 73.5 gr. and see how they fall in the group. I'm not leaving any N565 on the table, so it's not too slow. If not, I'll switch to a slightly faster powder such as H4831sc. Tomorrow I have to bale, so iffen I don't get out and shoot before I rake, I'll shoot Friday.

 

[deputyrpa]

Quick Update:
I took out some 170's this morning and shot them to just inside 700yards and didn't have problems with repeatability on steel. I didn't have an issue with a known 8 twist, however it seems there's something happening here that is causing some people issues with this particular bullet.

I made some tweaks today to increase the stability about 6% and I'm making some prototypes (likely) tomorrow. I will test some here as well as send a few off to @Conrad to test in his rifle since it's one of the guns having problems. I will pass along results.

I have some results above and below.

 

[deputyrpa]

I ran the Cayuga 151gr today in the 7PRC (22" proof barrel) with H4831sc. I probably have around 600 rounds thru this barrel.
First I did a ladder test with Fed 215 LRM primers, Peterson brass 5x fired and annealed. COAL is 3.160"
Reminder: I'm at 156' elevation, and the temp today was 74F, 66% humidity.
Results:
66 gr- 2961 fps
66.5 - 2986
67 - 3043
67.5 - 3043
68 - 3087
68.5 - 3086
69 - 3095 No obvious pressure signs
Then I threw another 68 and 68.5 gr with a COAL of 3.180" for the heck of it to see jump/velocity sensitivity
68gr - 3059 fps
68.5 - 3065 fps
The target: Shots 8 & 9 landed over shot 6)

 

[deputyrpa]

So then I changed to White River Energetics Large Rifle primer, with a COAL of 3.180"
The results:
67gr - 2974 fps
67.5 - 2997
68 - 3049
68.5 - 3087
69 - 3054 (?)
69.5 - 3110 Slight ejector swipe
The target:

Since shots 4,5 & 6 were on top of each other, I took the 68.5 grain load and stretched it out to 400 yards with a guesstimated 5 MOA come-up.
Results:
#1 - 3081 fps #2 - 3018 fps #3 - 3045 fps
Shots 1 & 3 were on top of each other, and shot 2 was about 2" low and 1.5" left. The entire group was almost 2MOA high. These all are small sampe sizes, but I'm encouraged to explore the 68.5 to 69 grain area with H4831sc I won't get any more velocity from it, but it will have to do as an accuracy load, as i'm running out of time. I'm gonna need more boolits.

 

[bohem]

So then I changed to White River Energetics Large Rifle primer, with a COAL of 3.180"
The results:
67gr - 2974 fps
67.5 - 2997
68 - 3049
68.5 - 3087
69 - 3054 (?)
69.5 - 3110 Slight ejector swipe
The target:
View attachment 8766862
Since shots 4,5 & 6 were on top of each other, I took the 68.5 grain load and stretched it out to 400 yards with a guesstimated 5 MOA come-up.
Results:
#1 - 3081 fps #2 - 3018 fps #3 - 3045 fps
Shots 1 & 3 were on top of each other, and shot 2 was about 2" low and 1.5" left. The entire group was almost 2MOA high. These all are small sampe sizes, but I'm encouraged to explore the 68.5 to 69 grain area with H4831sc I won't get any more velocity from it, but it will have to do as an accuracy load, as i'm running out of time. I'm gonna need more boolits.
View attachment 8766864View attachment 8766863

That's a great start!

Make sure you clean the barrel and fire a couple of foulers when changing powders. Most rifles are sensitive to this, but especially solids.

Also, when you're loading: be sure to have the case mouth well chamfered and if it scratches a bullet during seating pull the bullet and clean out the neck. That bullet is probably no good for anything but a fouler now but it will be a guaranteed flier if you don't.

Lastly, the solids are pretty sensitive to neck tension and consistent annealing cycles. I have a pair of customers that are 1000yd BR shooters who have sworn me to secrecy as to their identities (BR guys!) but they have determined that they can cut the waterline size of the groups in half at 1000 by being careful with annealing and neck tension on our bullets.

 

[deputyrpa]

That's a great start!

Make sure you clean the barrel and fire a couple of foulers when changing powders. Most rifles are sensitive to this, but especially solids.

Also, when you're loading: be sure to have the case mouth well chamfered and if it scratches a bullet during seating pull the bullet and clean out the neck. That bullet is probably no good for anything but a fouler now but it will be a guaranteed flier if you don't.

Lastly, the solids are pretty sensitive to neck tension and consistent annealing cycles. I have a pair of customers that are 1000yd BR shooters who have sworn me to secrecy as to their identities (BR guys!) but they have determined that they can cut the waterline size of the groups in half at 1000 by being careful with annealing and neck tension on our bullets.

I'm liking the 151s, and I ordered another 50 last night. I was fooling around with the last four 1x fired Peterson brass, because my 7, 8 and 9x fired brass was getting flimsy and sticking with light loads. I cleaned, smoothed out the chamber and reset the barrel headspace a bit tighter before I ran these Cayugas because the brass was getting worked a bit too much over the last year for my liking. I always anneal, brush out the neck and chamfer as routine practice. I used the 312 bushing in my sizing die and am getting moderately light tension on the seating with the 1x fired brass. The old brass was lighter, and I could switch the bushing to lighten up the new brass seating.

What I didn't do is clean the barrel. Thanks for that tip - I'll do that. One thing I noticed with the Proof carbon barrel is that it 1. Takes about 6-7 rounds to foul and settle in after a cleaning; and 2. has a cold bore POI slightly lower than the following string. After I develop a load, I clean, foul and shoot a cold bore shot once or twice a day for a week or so to confirm zero. That's the shot that counts, after all. I'm fortunate to have my own range to be able to do that.

I spooled up 4 loads of 69gr H4831sc., and set the bullets to the same COAL. This time i used Fed 215s. My velocity increased significantly, but the group opened up a bit. I had no obvious pressure signs. In any event, I have to wait for my new brass to get here on Friday before I decide on the primer, powder charge and seating depth tweaks. I'm close, but any insight on that would be appreciated, Josh.

So the results were 3122 fps, 3144 fps, 3132 fps & 3129 fps. The group was about 1.7MOA at 400yds (Sharpie is 5.5"). Cold bore shot was almost bullseye at 4MOA come-up, and the subsequent three were 1MOA and high. I had a L to R wind at 5, but I'll mess with windage after I get a load dialed in. These are slippery little things though.

Now it's off to weld the axle on my hay rake! Doh!

 

[bohem]

I'm liking the 151s, and I ordered another 50 last night. I was fooling around with the last four 1x fired Peterson brass, because my 7, 8 and 9x fired brass was getting flimsy and sticking with light loads. I cleaned, smoothed out the chamber and reset the barrel headspace a bit tighter before I ran these Cayugas because the brass was getting worked a bit too much over the last year for my liking. I always anneal, brush out the neck and chamfer as routine practice. I used the 312 bushing in my sizing die and am getting moderately light tension on the seating with the 1x fired brass. The old brass was lighter, and I could switch the bushing to lighten up the new brass seating.

What I didn't do is clean the barrel. Thanks for that tip - I'll do that. One thing I noticed with the Proof carbon barrel is that it 1. Takes about 6-7 rounds to foul and settle in after a cleaning; and 2. has a cold bore POI slightly lower than the following string. After I develop a load, I clean, foul and shoot a cold bore shot once or twice a day for a week or so to confirm zero. That's the shot that counts, after all. I'm fortunate to have my own range to be able to do that.

I spooled up 4 loads of 69gr H4831sc., and set the bullets to the same COAL. This time i used Fed 215s. My velocity increased significantly, but the group opened up a bit. I had no obvious pressure signs. In any event, I have to wait for my new brass to get here on Friday before I decide on the primer, powder charge and seating depth tweaks. I'm close, but any insight on that would be appreciated, Josh.

So the results were 3122 fps, 3144 fps, 3132 fps & 3129 fps. The group was about 1.7MOA at 400yds (Sharpie is 5.5"). Cold bore shot was almost bullseye at 4MOA come-up, and the subsequent three were 1MOA and high. I had a L to R wind at 5, but I'll mess with windage after I get a load dialed in. These are slippery little things though.
View attachment 8768026

Now it's off to weld the axle on my hay rake! Doh!
View attachment 8768028

D'oh! It's always something with machinery isn't it? Good luck, I hope it's just the axle.

On the barrels: I've noticed over the years, long before we started the Ospreys, that solids are very particular to certain barrels. When I started slugging barrels it wasn't a specific brand each time that made solids shoot but rather how consistent the bore "felt" while slugging them. We noticed that carbon barrels had a tendency to be fussy with lots of different solids and when I started slugging them it was a 1:1 correlation that if the bore was consistent in diameter and smooth it was much easier to get great performance from pretty much every solid. If the bore had a lot of wear in the throat already OR the barrel exhibited slightly tight and slightly loose areas as the slug was pushed down it then solids would be finnicky or downright impossible to tune a load.

I've seen every high end barrel come through the shop and virtually all of them at one point or another will have a barrel that has some areas that vary slightly. The most consistent barrels these days are the ones where the company is advertising that they're honing the blanks instead of pre-lapping. For jacketed bullets that detail seems to matter a lot less, but when you're shooting solid hunks of copper that isn't compliant like a jacketed lead core you need that difference. This is one of the reasons that I decided to spend the money on honing for the Ospreys instead of going with a much more cost effective pre-lapping step.

That being said, you have the barrel you have already so my advice there would be to anneal the necks, chamfer the mouth well, put a tiny amount of imperial sizing wax on the bullet when you seat it and probably reduce the neck tension to 0.002" maybe 0.003" max.

 

[deputyrpa]

D'oh! It's always something with machinery isn't it? Good luck, I hope it's just the axle.

On the barrels: I've noticed over the years, long before we started the Ospreys, that solids are very particular to certain barrels. When I started slugging barrels it wasn't a specific brand each time that made solids shoot but rather how consistent the bore "felt" while slugging them. We noticed that carbon barrels had a tendency to be fussy with lots of different solids and when I started slugging them it was a 1:1 correlation that if the bore was consistent in diameter and smooth it was much easier to get great performance from pretty much every solid. If the bore had a lot of wear in the throat already OR the barrel exhibited slightly tight and slightly loose areas as the slug was pushed down it then solids would be finnicky or downright impossible to tune a load.

I've seen every high end barrel come through the shop and virtually all of them at one point or another will have a barrel that has some areas that vary slightly. The most consistent barrels these days are the ones where the company is advertising that they're honing the blanks instead of pre-lapping. For jacketed bullets that detail seems to matter a lot less, but when you're shooting solid hunks of copper that isn't compliant like a jacketed lead core you need that difference. This is one of the reasons that I decided to spend the money on honing for the Ospreys instead of going with a much more cost effective pre-lapping step.

That being said, you have the barrel you have already so my advice there would be to anneal the necks, chamfer the mouth well, put a tiny amount of imperial sizing wax on the bullet when you seat it and probably reduce the neck tension to 0.002" maybe 0.003" max.

Thanks Josh!

Farmin' with junk! Yeah, it's just the axle.....for the third time. This time it broke all jagged right in the keyway. I have to normalize the axle section, then weld it, then case harden it. Just like a Japanese sword - only very dull, lol. A knotter frame on the old Super hayliner 68 baler broke later that day too. Cast iron, and almost unobtanium. I had to call in the neighbors to finish up.

I'll probably hit you up for an Osprey barrel after this one is shot out - if you can whip one up for a small shank Savage. You're an Enginerd - you can do it. It's a lefty 110 that I bought in a hurry two years ago, and I've probably got at least 6-700 rounds down the barrel. I lost count. Probably more.

I bore-scoped the barrel after your last post, and the throat is actually pretty good considering how I push it. Minimal erosion and heat cracking. But you're right on point in that I've tried and given up on other solids - LRX, CE Maximus and Hammers, etc - because they shot OK, but not great. I can't settle for ok. I have to always go back to bonded or cup lead to achive the precision for long range shots. I spent the year trying all sorts of solids until I came across your bullets somewhere and found this thread here. Maybe all the lapping and shooting has improved things? Ya, riiiiigggght.

Thanks for the help! Check you emails (from Bleeb) - mine may have gone to spam. I have a story to tell.