Precision Rifle Gear Chad vs Botnia

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I’ve shot one round through a Stringer and will say it was enough concussion for me not to try another round.

However, nowadays I recommend none of them. Not the DN5, CHAD, Stringer, Botnia and so on. If you have to use a brake, use the straighter ported ACE or Hawkins Updraft. I used the CHAD and was apart of the original preorder debacle and used it quite a bit. After 2 matches this year I felt like I had a concussion after 2 days of shooting and decided to move away from it.

For the health of the shooters and longevity of the sport I believe suppressors will start to dominate with brakes soon becoming a minority. Only one year of the PRS incentivizing suppressor use the number of suppressors have gone way up and companies like RecoilX make it even more enticing.

There’s nothing about constant concussion to a shooter that can be healthy for you.

I said something similar years ago on this site. As more science comes out we're going to find these concussive brakes are contributing to TBI. Even Kahl mentioned it on a podcast the other day and the reason he switched to a can.

Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.

 

[jthor]

I said something similar years ago on this site. As more science comes out we're going to find these conclusive breaks are contributing to TBI. Even Kahl mentioned it on a podcast the other day and the reason he switched to a can.

Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.

My answer to that is simply folks need to focus on fundamentals vs trying to buy their way to avoid it/putting in the work. I’m guilty of that in the past and have since changed my whole approach due to the negative effects high perforce concussive brakes have.

If a concussive brake starts to affect your cognitive ability then I don’t believe it’s an advantage.

Another thing is I’ve noticed I see way more shooting suppressed than I ever did using a TMB or CHAD. A part of this is the fact your ocular nerve (might not be the right word) shuts off for a split second during the concussion of the brake. So regardless of suppressor having more recoil, I see more with the suppressor. Additionally I can think better on the clock when shooting suppressed vs a brake.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I had the opposite experience. I shot a can for the first time at a 2 day recently and it was by far the worst match ive shot in 2 years. I couldn't see anything. The gun took forever to settle. It was a braked can as well. Probably not as good as a mav or the new recoil x, but still not terrible.

Going back to the CHAD for now. I just shoot much better with it. I do have one of the recoil x comp brakes sitting here just waiting to buy the can for it. Might give that a shot in the off season but its going to take alot of reps to get comfortable moving to a can.

 

[dscl]

By nature of my shitty state I'm stuck using a CHAD - one day I would like to know can freedom though LOL

 

[epracmetcon]

Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.

On these heavy open guns, I beg to differ. I have a Maverick on my Dasher, and now a Scythe STM with the new Recoil X brake on my 25x47. Neither rifle move more than a mil off target and most of the time it is less than half a mil.

I ran a Chad on my 25 before moving to a can, and honestly I feel that I am not losing anything, if anything I feel more at an advantage because I don't blink when the gun goes off anymore.

 

[kthomas]

My answer to that is simply folks need to focus on fundamentals vs trying to buy their way to avoid it/putting in the work. I’m guilty of that in the past and have since changed my whole approach due to the negative effects high perforce concussive brakes have.

If a concussive brake starts to affect your cognitive ability then I don’t believe it’s an advantage.

Another thing is I’ve noticed I see way more shooting suppressed than I ever did using a TMB or CHAD. A part of this is the fact your ocular nerve (might not be the right word) shuts off for a split second during the concussion of the brake. So regardless of suppressor having more recoil, I see more with the suppressor. Additionally I can think better on the clock when shooting suppressed vs a brake.

This.

I've never had an issue spotting impacts while shooting suppressed.

But I can see how shooting suppressed would cause issues with the Jim See school of shooters that employ free recoil and trigger slapping techniques.

 

[rydah]

Yep, I don’t know both sides and both versions of the story… and don’t really care to. Because what I do know is, the guy who basically put a certain company on the map and got them rolling, now wont even say their name… and to me, that says a lot. YMMV.

Guys are free to listen to the podcast and decide what they think for themselves…

Exactly. People know both sides of the story, they simply don’t care about my side of the story. I don’t have any high profile or influential friends in the scene, the Utah crowd were my friends but they all turned their backs on me because that’s the type of people they are and when they did, PRS management and their friends followed suit. So naturally the status quo has been against me for a long time. Which is why and how the counterfeit chad situation was deemed acceptable by the community, dehumanize me and anything that happens after that is justified and okay because I’m bad and you’re fighting a righteous fight. Even stealing my design, bullying me on and offline constantly and trying to push me out of the sport and ruin my life. Your attitude proves my point exactly. People that don’t know me or anything about me, going out of their way to say and do things to hurt me, when they’ve got no idea what they’re talking about. Which is fine, you do you, I’d rather be respected by the real ones and hated by the sheep than the other way round. I’ve never been much for acquaintances anyways, I’m too busy inventing things the sheep will try and copy.

 

[oldrifleman]

Exactly. People know both sides of the story, they simply don’t care about my side of the story. I don’t have any high profile or influential friends in the scene, the Utah crowd were my friends but they all turned their backs on me because that’s the type of people they are and when they did, PRS management and their friends followed suit. So naturally the status quo has been against me for a long time. Which is why and how the counterfeit chad situation was deemed acceptable by the community, dehumanize me and anything that happens after that is justified and okay because I’m bad and you’re fighting a righteous fight. Even stealing my design, bullying me on and offline constantly and trying to push me out of the sport and ruin my life. Your attitude proves my point exactly. People that don’t know me or anything about me, going out of their way to say and do things to hurt me, when they’ve got no idea what they’re talking about. Which is fine, you do you, I’d rather be respected by the real ones and hated by the sheep than the other way round. I’ve never been much for acquaintances anyways, I’m too busy inventing things the sheep will try and copy.

Ahh don't let him get you down, He is a just blow hard dick sucker

 

[TylerN]

I own a Chad and shot a Botnia Maxi. Both were on a 6 Dasher and I’d need more back to back time to tell a difference. They are both extremely effective. The blast of the Chad isn’t bad for the shooter, but I always double up on ear pro when using a brake. The comment an earlier post made about sometimes feeling wind blow over you with the Chad is an accurate description.

I’ve been happy with the Chad and had a buddy order one after trying my rifle. I’m sure the Botnia would also be good but it’s just plain ugly and the import process is a turn off as well.

 

[oldrifleman]

I own a Chad and shot a Botnia Maxi. Both were on a 6 Dasher and I’d need more back to back time to tell a difference. They are both extremely effective. The blast of the Chad isn’t bad for the shooter, but I always double up on ear pro when using a brake. The comment an earlier post made about sometimes feeling wind blow over you with the Chad is an accurate description.

I’ve been happy with the Chad and had a buddy order one after trying my rifle. I’m sure the Botnia would also be good but it’s just plain ugly and the import process is a turn off as well.

I have some chads and I agree it is a warm wind and not the concussion driving blast of many Brakes. That said I prefer using my CAT JL.

 

[Tier1nub]

I have some chads and I agree it is a warm wind and not the concussion driving blast of many Brakes. That said I prefer using my CAT JL.

You ever want to sell a black one let me know.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Like a modular brake with different screw on sections?

No, moreso with printing there's no reason to be stuck with just a few designs, we can do a bunch at reasonable prices.

$400+ for brakes is absurd, and I will fix that

 

[dscl]

No, moreso with printing there's no reason to be stuck with just a few designs, we can do a bunch at reasonable prices.

$400+ for brakes is absurd, and I will fix that

Talk dirty to us Print Daddy LOL

 

[Tier1nub]

No, moreso with printing there's no reason to be stuck with just a few designs, we can do a bunch at reasonable prices.

$400+ for brakes is absurd, and I will fix that

I smell a sexy looking Ti printed brake! Count me down for one!

 

[cas6969]

The Botnia one blows my mind.
Where as the CHAD, I just thought people were overpaying so they could make something else out of it. (cough)

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Talk dirty to us Print Daddy LOL

First I'm gonna lay you down like a fine, fine metal powder. Then I'm gonna hit you with my laser until you melt.

 

[oldrifleman]

First I'm gonna lay you down like a fine, fine metal powder. Then I'm gonna hit you with my laser until you melt.

This conversation has taken a really strange turn

 

[rydah]

No, moreso with printing there's no reason to be stuck with just a few designs, we can do a bunch at reasonable prices.

$400+ for brakes is absurd, and I will fix that

So you’re an expert on muzzle brake design and fluid dynamics now are you?

 

[Tier1nub]

Sounds like maybe he’s an expert in metal printing….calabo?

 

[rydah]

Sounds like maybe he’s an expert in metal printing….calabo?

I don’t see the overlap.

 

[Tier1nub]

My understanding is 3D metal printing gives you the most versatility in terms of shapes etc. I could be way off and missing so many aspect excuse my ignorance.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

So you’re an expert on muzzle brake design and fluid dynamics now are you?

I'd consider myself somewhat knowledgeable, and my operation isn't just myself, and I have some impressive employees.

But, another beauty of printing is you can quickly test designs and see what works, and iterate on those designs. I do this for some big names, and it can be more efficient and cost effective than CFD where supersonic flow analysis doesn't always produce the expected results.

Good question though, it is good to be skeptical.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

My understanding is 3D metal printing gives you the most versatility in terms of shapes etc. I could be way off and missing so many aspect excuse my ignorance.

It definitely does give significant versatility, within the design constraints. Mainly to make shapes that would be more difficult otherwise.

 

[rydah]

I'd consider myself somewhat knowledgeable, and my operation isn't just myself, and I have some impressive employees.

But, another beauty of printing is you can quickly test designs and see what works, and iterate on those designs. I do this for some big names, and it can be more efficient and cost effective than CFD where supersonic flow analysis doesn't always produce the expected results.

Good question though, it is good to be skeptical.

Printing prototypes and testing them vs cfd testing is not quicker or more cost effective.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

My understanding is 3D metal printing gives you the most versatility in terms of shapes etc. I could be way off and missing so many aspect excuse my ignorance.

There are also some big drawbacks. The porosity of 3d printed cans and probably eventually brakes absorbs some really nasty shit into the metal that when cleaned off, is pretty toxic. You also get sparking with some of the 3d cans which can be a deal breaker in certain applications for the obvious. I know at least one company is doing some testing around that now . Additive manufacturing is definitely the future and its not crazy to image a world where it completely replaces traditional machining. But its important to know the pros/cons of each. With modern 5/6 axis machines and EDM, you can do some amazing stuff.

 

[Tier1nub]

Really appreciate you’re clarification!

 

[oldrifleman]

There are also some big drawbacks. The porosity of 3d printed cans and probably eventually brakes absorbs some really nasty shit into the metal that when cleaned off, is pretty toxic. You also get sparking with some of the 3d cans which can be a deal breaker in certain applications for the obvious. I know at least one company is doing some testing around that now . Additive manufacturing is definitely the future and its not crazy to image a world where it completely replaces traditional machining. But its important to know the pros/cons of each. With modern 5/6 axis machines and EDM, you can do some amazing stuff.

Agreed! I work in a rather large Aerospace company and we are exploring additive. It is great to prototype a design, and can be spectacular for an emergency repair part, but it is also not all that great in gas thrust environments without cnc cleanup. Would be it work, sure but it MAY be a life limited part.

 

[jthor]

Agreed! I work in a rather large Aerospace company and we are exploring additive. It is great to prototype a design, and can be spectacular for an emergency repair part, but it is also not all that great in gas thrust environments without cnc cleanup. Would be it work, sure but it MAY be a life limited part.

There are several complex parts that handle both high heat pressure within SpaceX Merlin, Raptor engines and Draco thrusters that are 3D printed. So there are definitely tricks to getting it to work for a finished part that has longevity.

 

[oldrifleman]

There are several complex parts that handle both high heat pressure within SpaceX Merlin, Raptor engines and Draco thrusters that are 3D printed. So there are definitely tricks to getting it to work for a finished part that has longevity.

I am aware of them, and yes they can and are being done everyday. Fan blades are commonly done using additive manufacturing methods. The parts in a gas path most often require clean up to provide a smooth air flow.
That said a decent CAD suite can create the design, model it, and run a flow simulation and correct asymmetric flow issues, then kick out a Printer or CNC instruction set. All in less than a day.

 

[jthor]

I am aware of them, and yes they can and are being done everyday. Fan blades are commonly done using additive manufacturing methods. The parts in a gas path most often require clean up to provide a smooth air flow.
That said a decent CAD suite can create the design, model it, and run a flow simulation and correct asymmetric flow issues, then kick out a Printer or CNC instruction set. All in less than a day.

Yeah, if I can remember correctly it was the combustion chamber and a few other parts. Previously the parts were machined and welded together, but 3D printing allowed for A part that was not only easier to produce, but allowed for more complexity and actually ended up allowing pressures to increase vs the welded part.

 

[JR1200W3]

The whole concussion argument is wild to me. Number one, I've never had headaches after match. I just can't relate to that. I have medically documented TBI from RPG explosions, years of explosive breaching with 900gr ECT at 15ft MSD in enclosed concrete shoot houses, chasing 9-bang flashbangs in rooms, hard parachute openings under free fall while wearing helmets and NODs...and while I agree that nasty muzzle brakes can in some circumstances create the same affect of distraction to slow recoil of suppressors, the concussion has never bothered me after a day or two of shooting. I truly don't understand it. Part of me feels like it's the biggest bitch-assed, pansy cop out....and part of me wonders what's wrong with me that I don't feel what other people feel.

I recently shot a 6GT with a ScilencerCo suppressor and a Recoil X Gen I brake back to back with my 25GT using a Hawkins Updraft brake. My rifle was probably 2-3lbs heavier than this gentleman's rifle that let me shoot it. But the difference was very noticable. Weight + brake rules the day. Even on a heavier recoiling round. As far as my limited experience goes. I always assumed it's the concussion issue that was the trade space for braked suppressors, which I just have a hard time relating to.

 

[Niles Coyote]

But did you see more detail throughout the recoil impulse and arrival of the projectile at its destination?

I have been blessed to not have headaches from my own shooting. I can only think of a couple times out of probably approaching 200+ days of PR matches now that I have had a headache after, and each time was from getting too close to someone else's muzzle.

I know I can see more with a braked suppressor and I'm not blinking through the blast cycle of a brake alone.

The Botnia is the first brake I have used that I can say my vision isn't affected...

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

The whole concussion argument is wild to me. Number one, I've never had headaches after match. I just can't relate to that. I have medically documented TBI from RPG explosions, years of explosive breaching with 900gr ECT at 15ft MSD in enclosed concrete shoot houses, chasing 9-bang flashbangs in rooms, hard parachute openings under free fall while wearing helmets and NODs...and while I agree that nasty muzzle brakes can in some circumstances create the same affect of distraction to slow recoil of suppressors, the concussion has never bothered me after a day or two of shooting. I truly don't understand it. Part of me feels like it's the biggest bitch-assed, pansy cop out....and part of me wonders what's wrong with me that I don't feel what other people feel.

I recently shot a 6GT with a ScilencerCo suppressor and a Recoil X Gen I brake back to back with my 25GT using a Hawkins Updraft brake. My rifle was probably 2-3lbs heavier than this gentleman's rifle that let me shoot it. But the difference was very noticable. Weight + brake rules the day. Even on a heavier recoiling round. As far as my limited experience goes. I always assumed it's the concussion issue that was the trade space for braked suppressors, which I just have a hard time relating to.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn’t affect other folks. From all the stuff you listed, maybe you're already "messed up" and a brake concussion is small beans. This is a similar argument to some of those folks who say brakes aren't loud and that they don't feel the need to double up. Come to find out their hearing is already damaged in some way.

I do agree though. A brake will likely always be better than a can + brake simply because of physics.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The whole concussion argument is wild to me. Number one, I've never had headaches after match. I just can't relate to that. I have medically documented TBI from RPG explosions, years of explosive breaching with 900gr ECT at 15ft MSD in enclosed concrete shoot houses, chasing 9-bang flashbangs in rooms, hard parachute openings under free fall while wearing helmets and NODs...and while I agree that nasty muzzle brakes can in some circumstances create the same affect of distraction to slow recoil of suppressors, the concussion has never bothered me after a day or two of shooting. I truly don't understand it. Part of me feels like it's the biggest bitch-assed, pansy cop out....and part of me wonders what's wrong with me that I don't feel what other people feel.

I recently shot a 6GT with a ScilencerCo suppressor and a Recoil X Gen I brake back to back with my 25GT using a Hawkins Updraft brake. My rifle was probably 2-3lbs heavier than this gentleman's rifle that let me shoot it. But the difference was very noticable. Weight + brake rules the day. Even on a heavier recoiling round. As far as my limited experience goes. I always assumed it's the concussion issue that was the trade space for braked suppressors, which I just have a hard time relating to.

If you had TBI then getting your bell rung all day with conclusive muzzle brake blasts would probably bother you. Almost everyone I know with combat backgrounds dealing with IEDs and demo share the same opinion. We tend to be move more sensitive to concussion and blast then most.

I spent all day yesterday under cover eating blast from a botnia from the guy shooting in front of me. Had a headache before I left the match.

It's not really disputable at this point. Even prominent professional shooters are starting to move away to cans for the reason. As more information comes out, I predict we will realize we are fucking our brains up with these brakes. The same way no one thought doing years of demo and shooting recoilless rifles would scramble someone's brain. Tens of thousands of VA claims might disagree.

 

[jthor]

I truly don't understand it. Part of me feels like it's the biggest bitch-assed, pansy cop out....and part of me wonders what's wrong with me that I don't feel what other people feel.

For me it’s only the high concussion muzzle brakes such as the TMB or CHAD that I’ve used that do it to me. The Updraft and ACE don’t seem to do it. Tidd will get headaches just shooting around folks using those high concussion muzzle brakes in his squad. Sam Carlson will get headaches from them due his TBI getting hit from a EFP. For me using the high concussion brakes it’s a slow degradation throughout the match. I start off sharp and tuned in and at some point my mental acuity takes a decline. So for me it’s not a benefit if the ”performance” of a muzzle brake also contributes to a mental decline and if your ocular nerve shuts off for a split second during the concussion. Which is why regardless of a suppressor having a longer recoil impulse I noticed I saw more down range during my first time shooting suppressed in March at the Cheyenne match. Additionally while it’s not necessarily something I look for I’ve noticed seeing more trace shooting suppressed. Then I noticed I didn’t have to take Excedrin that night and didn’t have a headache the next day, where I previously did with the TMB/CHAD.
Derek Love stopped shooting ELR because the muzzle brakes on those guns were giving him such bad headaches. Then I talked about this the other week amongst Kahl, and Francis Colon. Kahl had a TBI this year which in a podcast he connected to shooting brakes and being around it constantly.
I’d like to see a medical study on this topic, but if many shooters are complaining about headaches from muzzle brakes it’s probably true that there is a negative side effect that could use a study.

I’ve done better shooting suppressed and then feel better after the match and then when I got to experience the RecoilX Comp brake on my TBAC suppressor, it was a no brainer to switch completely.

 

[oldrifleman]

The whole concussion argument is wild to me. Number one, I've never had headaches after match. I just can't relate to that. I have medically documented TBI from RPG explosions, years of explosive breaching with 900gr ECT at 15ft MSD in enclosed concrete shoot houses, chasing 9-bang flashbangs in rooms, hard parachute openings under free fall while wearing helmets and NODs...and while I agree that nasty muzzle brakes can in some circumstances create the same affect of distraction to slow recoil of suppressors, the concussion has never bothered me after a day or two of shooting. I truly don't understand it. Part of me feels like it's the biggest bitch-assed, pansy cop out....and part of me wonders what's wrong with me that I don't feel what other people feel.

I recently shot a 6GT with a ScilencerCo suppressor and a Recoil X Gen I brake back to back with my 25GT using a Hawkins Updraft brake. My rifle was probably 2-3lbs heavier than this gentleman's rifle that let me shoot it. But the difference was very noticable. Weight + brake rules the day. Even on a heavier recoiling round. As far as my limited experience goes. I always assumed it's the concussion issue that was the trade space for braked suppressors, which I just have a hard time relating to.

Really glad you don't have an issue, there are those of us who do. My daughter is one of them who if exposed to the blast from say a little bastard brake will end up in a dark room for another day recovering. I now do everything I can to protect my family from long term injury so I am moving away from brakes as much as I can towards cans and teaching my kids to shoot using them. the ACE was a great brake and the Chad is good as well in terms of being non-concussive The CHAD is a great brake but I now prefer one of my CAT suppressors as do my kids.

 

[JR1200W3]

For me it’s only the high concussion muzzle brakes such as the TMB or CHAD that I’ve used that do it to me. The Updraft and ACE don’t seem to do it. Tidd will get headaches just shooting around folks using those high concussion muzzle brakes in his squad. Sam Carlson will get headaches from them due his TBI getting hit from a EFP. For me using the high concussion brakes it’s a slow degradation throughout the match. I start off sharp and tuned in and at some point my mental acuity takes a decline. So for me it’s not a benefit if the ”performance” of a muzzle brake also contributes to a mental decline and if your ocular nerve shuts off for a split second during the concussion. Which is why regardless of a suppressor having a longer recoil impulse I noticed I saw more down range during my first time shooting suppressed in March at the Cheyenne match. Additionally while it’s not necessarily something I look for I’ve noticed seeing more trace shooting suppressed. Then I noticed I didn’t have to take Excedrin that night and didn’t have a headache the next day, where I previously did with the TMB/CHAD.
Derek Love stopped shooting ELR because the muzzle brakes on those guns were giving him such bad headaches. Then I talked about this the other week amongst Kahl, and Francis Colon. Kahl had a TBI this year which in a podcast he connected to shooting brakes and being around it constantly.
I’d like to see a medical study on this topic, but if many shooters are complaining about headaches from muzzle brakes it’s probably true that there is a negative side effect that could use a study.

I’ve done better shooting suppressed and then feel better after the match and then when I got to experience the RecoilX Comp brake on my TBAC suppressor, it was a no brainer to switch completely.

You have to keep in mind, most guys at a match drank 6 beers the night before, got up at 0500 to drive 2-3 hours to Wyoming, stood around in the hot sun all day, probably didn't eat or drink much, and stared through glass for 6 hours. That by itself would surely be the cause of declined acuity over the day and a headache in any other conversation. When I was a sniper instructor at Bragg, I would have light headaches from eye strain after staring through spotting scopes for 6 hours a day coaching students. There's correlation and causation and then there's the less obvious third variable that people miss when they assign mistaken causation.

You're not going to see a conclusive medical study on something this frivolous. I know that sounds like an asshole statement, but I just mean that diagnosing TBIs isn't cut and dried and that's in an industry where there's big money behind it, special interest groups, and advocacy. I just finished an 8 week program at a TBI clinic and I can tell the doctors didn't rely on a conclusive diagnosis. The most conclusive thing I saw was the results of a brain MRI that showed a legion from what is most likely an old bleed. Re-image it in a year, they said. They test your eyes to see if they will both focus on the same object. Ask about memory and cognitive function, but those things are pretty subjective. When I say I've been in close proximity of hundreds of interior breaching charges inside structures, it's just assumed, multiple micro-TBIs. There's no testing to confirm how many TBIs and to what degree they were.

Either way, I bought a Scythe just for the purpose of using either the Recoil X or SiCo brake. I've shot the Therom S braked , Magnus K RR and a ScilencerCo can with the gen I Recoil X brake. So far I've been pretty underwhelmed with what I experienced shooting friends guns. I think my expectations were built up by all the testimonials on here and what I experienced so far didn't meet them. I am definitely going to give it a fair shot when it shows up because I would much rather shoot suppressed, but if there's a decline in spotting impacts, I'm not going to force it.

 

[jthor]

You have to keep in mind, most guys at a match drank 6 beers the night before, got up at 0500 to drive 2-3 hours to Wyoming, stood around in the hot sun all day, probably didn't eat or drink much, and stared through glass for 6 hours. That by itself would surely be the cause of declined acuity over the day and a headache in any other conversation. When I was a sniper instructor at Bragg, I would have light headaches from eye strain after staring through spotting scopes for 6 hours a day coaching students. There's correlation and causation and then there's the less obvious third variable that people miss when they assign mistaken causation.

You're not going to see a conclusive medical study on something this frivolous. I know that sounds like an asshole statement, but I just mean that diagnosing TBIs isn't cut and dried and that's in an industry where there's big money behind it, special interest groups, and advocacy. I just finished an 8 week program at a TBI clinic and I can tell the doctors didn't rely on a conclusive diagnosis. The most conclusive thing I saw was the results of a brain MRI that showed a legion from what is most likely an old bleed. Re-image it in a year, they said. They test your eyes to see if they will both focus on the same object. Ask about memory and cognitive function, but those things are pretty subjective. When I say I've been in close proximity of hundreds of interior breaching charges inside structures, it's just assumed, multiple micro-TBIs. There's no testing to confirm how many TBIs and to what degree they were.

Either way, I bought a Scythe just for the purpose of using either the Recoil X or SiCo brake. I've shot the Therom S braked , Magnus K RR and a ScilencerCo can with the gen I Recoil X brake. So far I've been pretty underwhelmed with what I experienced shooting friends guns. I think my expectations were built up by all the testimonials on here and what I experienced so far didn't meet them. I am definitely going to give it a fair shot when it shows up because I would much rather shoot suppressed, but if there's a decline in spotting impacts, I'm not going to force it.

I rarely drink alcohol and Sam doesn’t either, not everyone is Ritchie . I keep up with my hydration, use liquid IVs, have quick carbs and proteins to eat through a match.
When I was shooting service rifle more I would spend hours behind my spotter to study mirage changes and never got headaches from eye strain and I don’t get it when spotting in the mountains during elk/hunting seasons.
For me this past year when I shot suppressed in Cheyenne and then the following weekend at Box Canyon and then tried to go back to shooting the CHAD, it was like getting punched in the face and I was able to see the difference on how shooting with that brake vs suppressed made me feel afterwards. The only thing I changed at regional matches this year was shooting suppressed and my headaches went away, I shot well and over felt great. Then when I was going out and shooting 2 days with a muzzle brake I had to take headache meds before bed.
When I was shooting the CHAD I would feel a sharp quick pressure on my forehead/temple.
Lastly, there’s the possibility that some folks body’s handle concussion differently than others.

 

[JR1200W3]

I rarely drink alcohol and Sam doesn’t either, not everyone is Ritchie . I keep up with my hydration, use liquid IVs, have quick carbs and proteins to eat through a match.
When I was shooting service rifle more I would spend hours behind my spotter to study mirage changes and never got headaches from eye strain and I don’t get it when spotting in the mountains during elk/hunting seasons.
For me this past year when I shot suppressed in Cheyenne and then the following weekend at Box Canyon and then tried to go back to shooting the CHAD, it was like getting punched in the face and I was able to see the difference on how shooting with that brake vs suppressed made me feel afterwards. The only thing I changed at regional matches this year was shooting suppressed and my headaches went away, I shot well and over felt great. Then when I was going out and shooting 2 days with a muzzle brake I had to take headache meds before bed.
When I was shooting the CHAD I would feel a sharp quick pressure on my forehead/temple.
Lastly, there’s the possibility that some folks body’s handle concussion differently than others.

So if normal brakes don't bother you....and still beat a braked suppressor for recoil and keeping the reticle on target.....why aren't we just using normal brakes?

 

[jthor]

So if normal brakes don't bother you....and still beat a braked suppressor for recoil and keeping the reticle on target.....why aren't we just using normal brakes?

Because I stay on target using a suppressor and there is zero concussion. So for me the braked suppressor is better than the muzzle brake.

 

[JR1200W3]

Because I stay on target using a suppressor and there is zero concussion. So for me the braked suppressor is better than the muzzle brake.

Is this what you're calling staying on target?

Andy Hawkins on Instagram: "Hitting a little troop line with a 5” Mammoth and a brake end cap #clovisprecision #fueledbyhornady #altusshootingsolutions #hawkinsprecision #impactprecisionshooting #eatsleepshoot #foundationstock #hushpuppies"

9 likes, 0 comments - clovis_precision on September 8, 2025: "Hitting a little troop line with a 5” Mammoth and a brake end cap #clovisprecision #fueledbyhornady #altusshootingsolutions #hawkinsprecision #impactprecisionshooting #eatsleepshoot #foundationstock #hushpuppies".

www.instagram.com

Recoil X on Instagram: "Messing around with this new prototype for the @deadairsilencers and @diligentdefenseco. Shooting high angle, standing tripod was a fun challenge hitting this coyote target at @dmr_gunandknifeworks. Loving this brake/can combo

120 likes, 3 comments - recoilxbrakes on August 27, 2025: "Messing around with this new prototype for the @deadairsilencers and @diligentdefenseco. Shooting high angle, standing tripod was a fun challenge hitting this coyote target at @dmr_gunandknifeworks. Loving this brake/can combo with my 11...

www.instagram.com

Recoil X on Instagram: "Dialing in the final details for our new competition muzzle brake on the Thunder Beast Magnus! 💪 Drop a 💥 in the comments if you’re ready to take this beast to the range! Follow us for updates on the production release. 🔥"

281 likes, 23 comments - recoilxbrakes on August 9, 2025: "Dialing in the final details for our new competition muzzle brake on the Thunder Beast Magnus! 💪 Drop a 💥 in the comments if you’re ready to take this beast to the range! Follow us for updates on the production release. 🔥".

www.instagram.com

 

[jthor]

Is this what you're calling staying on target?

Andy Hawkins on Instagram: "Hitting a little troop line with a 5” Mammoth and a brake end cap #clovisprecision #fueledbyhornady #altusshootingsolutions #hawkinsprecision #impactprecisionshooting #eatsleepshoot #foundationstock #hushpuppies"

9 likes, 0 comments - clovis_precision on September 8, 2025: "Hitting a little troop line with a 5” Mammoth and a brake end cap #clovisprecision #fueledbyhornady #altusshootingsolutions #hawkinsprecision #impactprecisionshooting #eatsleepshoot #foundationstock #hushpuppies".

www.instagram.com

Recoil X on Instagram: "Messing around with this new prototype for the @deadairsilencers and @diligentdefenseco. Shooting high angle, standing tripod was a fun challenge hitting this coyote target at @dmr_gunandknifeworks. Loving this brake/can combo

120 likes, 3 comments - recoilxbrakes on August 27, 2025: "Messing around with this new prototype for the @deadairsilencers and @diligentdefenseco. Shooting high angle, standing tripod was a fun challenge hitting this coyote target at @dmr_gunandknifeworks. Loving this brake/can combo with my 11...

www.instagram.com

Recoil X on Instagram: "Dialing in the final details for our new competition muzzle brake on the Thunder Beast Magnus! 💪 Drop a 💥 in the comments if you’re ready to take this beast to the range! Follow us for updates on the production release. 🔥"

281 likes, 23 comments - recoilxbrakes on August 9, 2025: "Dialing in the final details for our new competition muzzle brake on the Thunder Beast Magnus! 💪 Drop a 💥 in the comments if you’re ready to take this beast to the range! Follow us for updates on the production release. 🔥".

www.instagram.com

And this. If you drop your fundamentals it shows up in the same manner as it does with a brake. There was actually one stage at Impact Foundation where I had to completely free recoil my gun with it over my shoulder to get my position to work and I stayed on target to see the impact. That was with the Magnus S and RecoilX Comp. Unfortunately my barrel took a giant crap that match and found that rifle and chassis combo had tons of stress, which is why I’ve been at Shane’s bedding all my rifles.

 

[JR1200W3]

And this. If you drop your fundamentals it shows up in the same manner as it does with a brake. There was actually one stage at Impact Foundation where I had to completely free recoil my gun with it over my shoulder to get my position to work and I stayed on target to see the impact. Unfortunately my barrel took a giant crap that match and found that rifle and chassis combo had tons of stress, which is why I’ve been at Shane’s bedding all my rifles.

Ya, exactly. To evaluate the two mechanical solutions you need to separate shooters ability from the gun's ability to mitigate recoil and muzzle rise on it's own. Because when you are racing the last 3 secs for a shot, are in a wobbly prop, or just chose poorly the position to shoot Nicks truck bed you won't be able to manhandle the recoil like you want to ideally. So all things being equal (shooters ability with whatever muzzle device), which mechanical system is more effective?

When you look at these videos, how many of them is the reticle jumping straight left? What does that mean? The reticle is still jumping off target but instead of jumping up, it's going left? Why? Because these guys are leaning hard into the gun to counter the recoil. They're making a video about the effectiveness and they want it to look good. So conventional thinking is that the reticle jumping up in elevation demonstrates recoil. So as long as it's not jumping up, it's effective right? No. It's just guys doing their GD best to manhandle that recoil. The reticle is still jumping off target. It's just moving in the direction of the shooters pressure after it move the shooter back, loses energy, and the shooters force pushes the reticle back in that direction. So the video with the tripod...did that jump left? No. It jumped up because the shooter isn't able to bear down on the gun in that position and it shows the true story of the mechanical system.

 

[jthor]

Ya, exactly. To evaluate the two mechanical solutions you need to separate shooters ability from the gun's ability to mitigate recoil and muzzle rise on it's own. Because when you are racing the last 3 secs for a shot, are in a wobbly prop, or just chose poorly the position to shoot Nicks truck bed you won't be able to manhandle the recoil like you want to ideally. So all things being equal (shooters ability with whatever muzzle device), which mechanical system is more effective?

When you look at these videos, how many of them is the reticle jumping straight left? What does that mean? The reticle is still jumping off target but instead of jumping up, it's going left? Why? Because these guys are leaning hard into the gun to counter the recoil. They're making a video about the effectiveness and they want it to look good. So conventional thinking is that the reticle jumping up in elevation demonstrates recoil. So as long as it's not jumping up, it's effective right? No. It's just guys doing their GD best to manhandle that recoil. The reticle is still jumping off target. It's just moving in the direction of the shooters pressure after it move the shooter back, loses energy, and the shooters force pushes the reticle back in that direction. So the video with the tripod...did that jump left? No. It jumped up because the shooter isn't able to bear down on the gun in that position and it shows the true story of the mechanical system.

Honest question, what are you trying to prove to me or yourself? That’s not meant facetiously. You have seen locally I’ve done well shooting suppressed against people using muzzle brakes. I dropped one shot out of Nicks truck bed and it was the first shot. I saw the needed correction and immediately made that correction. I’m honestly not understanding your angle. I just also stated I had to free recoil a shot out of necessity and stayed on target. The gun in the tripod is also a 12lb gun.

 

[JR1200W3]

Honest question, what are you trying to prove to me or yourself? That’s not meant facetiously. You have seen locally I’ve done well shooting suppressed against people using muzzle brakes. I dropped one shot out of Nicks truck bed and it was the first shot. I saw the needed correction and immediately made that correction. I’m honestly not understanding your angle. I just also stated I had to free recoil a shot out of necessity and stayed on target. The gun in the tripod is also a 12lb gun.

This: I think there's a lot of trend-following and #metoo'ism in PRS. I think people's enthusiasm for a certain thing motivates them to hype or go a little over the top on some assertions. And find reasons to justify their choices in order to match the enthusiasm for the new thing. And like I've already said, I'm surprised when I shot them how much they didn't measure up to what I thought they would do after everything I've read here.

I was talking to a buddy on the way home from Saturday's match about how much recoil I saw through that SiCo suppressor and G1 RX brake and he admitted, "ya, it's not going to beat a brake....". And that's when I questioned why I was so hot and bothered to get a braked suppressor (after I just bought a suppressor for it). While I'd prefer to shoot suppressed, I can totally shoot braked. I just wore foamies the entire day Saturday. No issues. So if a brake is going to be more competitive and it doesn't bother me, then why am I even doing this? Did I just get caught up in the PRS #metoo'ism and taken for the gear queer ride?

So, when I asked you the same question.... you said the reticle stayed on target. That's a surprise to me. I haven't seen that claim or in any of the videos. Now we're saying the braked suppressor is more effective than a brake like the Updraft? Is that what I heard?

 

[jthor]

This: I think there's a lot of trend-following and #metoo'ism in PRS. I think people's enthusiasm for a certain thing motivates them to hype or go a little over the top on some assertions. And find reasons to justify their choices in order to match the enthusiasm for the new thing. And like I've already said, I'm surprised when I shot them how much they didn't measure up to what I thought they would do after everything I've read here.

I was talking to a buddy on the way home from Saturday's match about how much recoil I saw through that SiCo suppressor and G1 RX brake and he admitted, "ya, it's not going to beat a brake....". And that's when I questioned why I was so hot and bothered to get a braked suppressor (after I just bought a suppressor for it). While I'd prefer to shoot suppressed, I can totally shoot braked. I just wore foamies the entire day Saturday. No issues. So if a brake is going to be more competitive and it doesn't bother me, then why am I even doing this? Did I just get caught up in the PRS #metoo'ism and taken for the gear queer ride?

So, when I asked you the same question.... you said the reticle stayed on target. That's a surprise to me. I haven't seen that claim or in any of the videos. Now we're saying the braked suppressor is more effective than a brake like the Updraft? Is that what I heard?

Gotcha! Well, I shot suppressed for the first time in a match in March at Sam’s and immediately after walked up to Kurtis Palau and mentioned how much more I saw/picked up shooting suppressed. For me it was something I immediately noticed, even in that matches 30 MPH winds. After that match I battled shooting suppressed vs braked and each time I went back to suppressed I shot better overall. For me shooting the Magnus S RR with the port at the 12/6 position was slightly less than using the updraft for recoil compared to the Updraft, but again there was zero concussion. It wasn’t until I shot the Magnus with the RecoilX Comp prototype that I decided to completely make the switch.

 

[JR1200W3]

It will be interesting to see where this topic lands in 3 - 5 years. I already know braked suppressors next season are going to be like pubes in the corner of a bathroom. I'm sure more companies will try to jump in and cash in on this trend so that momentum will carry for a bit. Time will show us. I've been wrong before.