• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Suppressors CLEO signature requirement going away!

bamawrx

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 27, 2010
152
0
54
Alabama
CLEO Requirement to be Discontinued

For enthusiasts of NFA-controlled firearms (e.g., machine guns, short barrel rifles and shotguns, suppressors), the requirement to get the local chief of police or sheriff's approval on the required Form 1 or Form 4 has been a problem. Started at the inception of the National Firearms Act, the idea was to get the person in front of the chief or sheriff - who was expected to know the "problem children" in his or her jurisdiction - to keep wackos from getting these special weapons. In the 30s through the 70s, that was potentially appropriate: there was no national computer database available at all hours to get criminal histories.

Now, someone buying a .22 rifle can have the National Instant (Background) Check (NICS) and leave the gunshop in fifteen minutes.

Since the CLEOs (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) approval was based on that person's supposed knowledge of local citizens and not whether or not the CLEO thought "people shouldn't own guns like that," it was (and is) often misused.

The National Firearms Act Trade & Collectors Association (NFATCA) has sought removal of the CLEO requirement for the last six years, according to NFATCA Executive Director and Board Member Jeff Folloder.

"There wasn't a lot of high profile aspects of the effort," he said in a phone interview. "It was a lot of drudgery and detail work trying to get the ATF to go along with removing that requirement."

They eventually did and ran the recommendation up to U.S. Department of Justice. The proposal was returned to NFA Branch for some clarifications. These were completed and the recommendation was sent back up.

Clearing the CLEO requirement off of Forms 1 and 4 has been approved by the DOJ. The revised Forms are being laid out and sent to Office of Management and Budget. They'll examine the proposed regulations and forms change and open the proceeding up for public comments. When that process is completed, they'll approve the printing run and disseminate the forms.

Something could happen to derail the process but it's not clear that anyone wants to. A problem does lurk if the proposed change - an apparently good thing - completes the bureaucratic process: There will be a run on NFA firearms from citizens who could legally own NFA guns but had a chief or sheriff who denied them the right.

Are there that many who were denied?

"The Harris County Sheriff (Texas) has never approved a Form 1 or Form 4," Mr. Folloder said. "That's potentially four million applications right there. Since there's a federal hiring freeze and the number of examiners will not increase, the increased applications will likely expand the time needed to get completed forms back from ATF/NFA."

He told people to be careful for what they wish. It looks like now we'll get it.

A call to the ATF's NFA branch for comment was not returned.

--Rich Grassi

Grassi is editor of our companion news service The Tactical Wire (www.thetacticalwire.com)
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

This is very good indeed. Will need NCIS on pickup but I don't know anyone that worries about that.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Thank god Texas isn't in my examiner's bracket!
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

If this action passes it should be the driving factor to hire SEVERAL more NFA Examiners. The down side is gonna come when MSNBC, CNN and all the other liberal MSM portray it as "everybody can now run out and get a 'very dangerous' machinegun without their sheriff knowing about it". They'll pull out all the stops to kill it before hand if they get wind of it in time. Oughta be a season on those bastards.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

lets start with this, and end it with not having to do all the BS PW.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Good news.....if you don't intend on buying a suppressor for the first couple months after this passes. If it passes that means there will be a huge amount of forms being sent in, thus making the wait even longer. Lets be honest here, do any of us actually think that our govt will hire more people to take care of this problem? They haven't done anything about it for how long now, why change?
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I thought that there was something attached to this that had to do with changes with the use of a Trust...
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Problem, however, is that CLEO signature is often a <span style="font-style: italic">state</span> requirement. Even if not required for the Feds, if the state laws require it, BATFE will still have to require it.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem, however, is that CLEO signature is often a <span style="font-style: italic">state</span> requirement. Even if not required for the Feds, if the state laws require it, BATFE will still have to require it. </div></div>

I was not aware of this but it is easier to get state laws changed to match federal. Provides cover for politicians. Always the trust which is a good option. Problem is and will remain wait times.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bamawrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was not aware of this but it is easier to get state laws changed to match federal. Provides cover for politicians. Always the trust which is a good option. Problem is and will remain wait times. </div></div>
While I admire your <span style="font-style: italic">optimism</span> and share your hope, empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Suppressors and full-autos are legal <span style="font-style: italic">Federally</span>, yet many states still make them either outright illegal, or so difficult to obtain they are functionally illegal. Perhaps I'm just too pessimistic?
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bamawrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was not aware of this but it is easier to get state laws changed to match federal. Provides cover for politicians. Always the trust which is a good option. Problem is and will remain wait times. </div></div>
While I admire your <span style="font-style: italic">optimism</span> and share your hope, empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Suppressors and full-autos are legal <span style="font-style: italic">Federally</span>, yet many states still make them either outright illegal, or so difficult to obtain they are functionally illegal. Perhaps I'm just too pessimistic? </div></div>

Don't know what State in which you reside, but plenty of good has been done at the State level in the last few years. I worked hard on my representatives on the short barrel rifle and short barrel shotgun ban, and eventually got it repealed over the objections of the sheriff association. So hows that for empirical evidence? Get off your ass and help make changes. If you live in a hell hole, well I can't help you there. Most States are pretty conservative and with some coordination and work you can get real changes made.

Get involved, spend money on some candidates, attend political events in your area, make sure your rep's know you, and you can get things done. One of my US senators knows me by first name, you don't get that complaining on the internet how things can't change.

I hate that defeated can't do anything attitude, despite loads of evidence the tail winds are on our side.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bamawrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Don't know what State in which you reside,
.....So hows that for empirical evidence? Get off your ass and help make changes. If you live in a hell hole, well I can't help you there. Most States are pretty conservative and with some coordination and work you can get real changes made.

Get involved, spend money on some candidates, attend political events in your area, make sure your rep's know you, and you can get things done. One of my US senators knows me by first name, you don't get that complaining on the internet how things can't change.

I hate that defeated can't do anything attitude, despite loads of evidence the tail winds are on our side. </div></div>

There's clearly a LOT you don't know about me there Mr. Wizzard. That you don't know where I am speaks to your reading ability, as my profile clearly states that information - per the rules. Your demonstrated ignorance of me is the only reason I don't fly you the finger here. The evidence of which I speak is oh, say, CA., IL., MA., even NC where I live. Glad the legislation moves at warp speed in <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> little corner of the world, but things are more glacial in most places - especially when hot-button issues are concerned.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bamawrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A call to the ATF's NFA branch for comment was not returned.

--Rich Grassi

Grassi is editor of our companion news service The Tactical Wire (www.thetacticalwire.com)
</div></div>

This guy expected a return call?

That's a riot.

Good luck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"This call is being answered by audix... you could leave a message, but it is highly unlikely that anyone will receive it."</div></div>
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I hope this is true that the CLEO signature requirement is going away, however, a trust will still have many advantages for lots of folks
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

This is good news, but it will make our waits time sky rocket. The more people that can bypass the CLEO signature and avoid the costs of having a trust made will be showing up at Class 3 dealers doorsteps in mobs.

Look for it to jump dramatically if the states accept this new ruling.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

regardless of the side effects this is yet another victory for gun owners and previously denied potential nfa owners.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I have spoken with Jeff Folloder several times. Great wealth of information and the NFATCA is probably the best advocate for us Title II collectors. The NRA will only do so much. These guys get it done for us. They understand how the ATF works and know the contacts of who to go for to get forms approved fast.
Now only if the ATF would make approving as fast as just a NIC check online or NICS call in!
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Talking with Ted Clutter in the past, the Trust has been an ass kicker on examiners and the legal dept. It isn't that a trust transfer takes longer than an individual transfer, it is that more time has to be spent on processing a trust because it has to be checked out. It seems (IMO) that they are hoping that relenquishing the requirement for the CLEO signature would decrease the number of trusts that they see. They actually keep a hard copy of all of the trusts on file that have been submitted. I bet their records room is a mell of a hess. I picture some hump back old man with a huge key ring and a lantern as the keeper of the records at NFA. They need to get this process streamlined. You would think that the paperwork reduction act would require NFA to go digital and move out of the stone ages.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

This is good news, but for many of us in gun friendly states like TN, getting a signature is very easy. But agree it is a step in the right direction.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Seems like perhaps our next battle should be to get the ATF to double, or even triple the number of examiners to keep up with demand. I'm sure the ATF could care less about wait times and what not, but if we an get a organization to get it to where a CLEO signature isn't required, then maybe we can get the ATF to hire and train more examiners.

Branden
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SigKev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is good news, but for many of us in gun friendly states like TN, getting a signature is very easy. But agree it is a step in the right direction. </div></div>

It has nothing to do with the state. It has to do with your CLEO.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SigKev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is good news, but for many of us in gun friendly states like TN, getting a signature is very easy. But agree it is a step in the right direction. </div></div>

It has nothing to do with the state. It has to do with your CLEO. </div></div>

Tn is one of the few "must sign" states.... the CLEO has no choice unless you don't pass the actual legal requirements. His personal stance don't get to dictate
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I quick search on the subject reveals this discussion began over a year ago, so I wouldn't hold my breath on this being implemented anytime soon.

Good news, but I'll believe it when I see it.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like perhaps our next battle should be to get the ATF to double, or even triple the number of examiners to keep up with demand. I'm sure the ATF could care less about wait times and what not, but if we an get a organization to get it to where a CLEO signature isn't required, then maybe we can get the ATF to hire and train more examiners.

Branden </div></div>

I'd argue this, and say that our next battle should be to CUT the numbers of the ATF in half or more, and let this be handled at a state level.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like perhaps our next battle should be to get the ATF to double, or even triple the number of examiners to keep up with demand. I'm sure the ATF could care less about wait times and what not, but if we an get a organization to get it to where a CLEO signature isn't required, then maybe we can get the ATF to hire and train more examiners.

Branden </div></div>

You are on to something here. My vote is that they need to come to the digital age and process Forms 2 and 3 via the internet. An examiner should never ever touch them. We need a minimum of 25 examiners. The current backlog is rediculous.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

All the shit talking they do about "we are here to create more jobs" and so on, well hell I think we just found 15 new government positions!

I would like to see more examiners and more focusing on the digital age then sending in 1000's of pieces of paper a day. What happened to the paperwork reduction act?
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: civil82</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like perhaps our next battle should be to get the ATF to double, or even triple the number of examiners to keep up with demand.</div></div>

I'd argue this, and say that our next battle should be to CUT the numbers of the ATF in half or more, and let this be handled at a state level. </div></div>
Bingo.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

How does an illegal item, become legal with a $200 tax? The entire process is ridiculous. I wouldnt hold my breath for things getting better. If anything, the wait is gonna get worse.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: civil82</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short-bus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like perhaps our next battle should be to get the ATF to double, or even triple the number of examiners to keep up with demand. I'm sure the ATF could care less about wait times and what not, but if we an get a organization to get it to where a CLEO signature isn't required, then maybe we can get the ATF to hire and train more examiners.

Branden </div></div>

I'd argue this, and say that our next battle should be to CUT the numbers of the ATF in half or more, and let this be handled at a state level. </div></div>

I don't think this is a good time to be cutting jobs, regardless of where they are being cut from. Unemployment is high enough as it is. As much as I hate to see big government get bigger, the ATF examiners could use some more help.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I'm sure that a few workers from the Fast and Furious debacle will need to be relocated within the organization. Perhaps desk jobs approving Fm4's will be a fitting duty for them to shuffle into. If anyone gets an approval back with "Holder" stamped on it, let me know.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SigKev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is good news, but for many of us in gun friendly states like TN, getting a signature is very easy. But agree it is a step in the right direction.</div></div>

Sure, it's easy, but imagine if you had to go through this process every time you wanted to exercise any of your other rights as guaranteed under the constitution and bill of rights? Buy a bible? Spend a morning in line in a room full of illegal aliens and disease-ridden urbanites getting fingerprinted, then take your papers to a state police office which is ONLY done at an office which is a 45 minute drive from your home then wait up to a month for someone in that office to sign off on the form. THEN, and ONLY THEN, could you pick up and read your bible.

Buying a suppressor should be cash and carry. As it stands, the CLEO sign off is an unnecessary and unconstitutional hindrance, an "abridgment" of our rights.

The tax stamp contract is with the FEDERAL, not the state or local government.

Anyway, anything that makes this process easier, faster, should be cheered.

JMHO.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Good that this is gonna end. I talked to my local chief of police here in town and told him that I needed to talk to him about getting fingerprints done so that I could get a can. He started laughing and told me "good luck, they are illegal", I told him "no they arent, you need to check your facts. They are legal to own, shoot, hunt with and have as long as you have the correct paperwork. He still didn't believe me, I haven't talked to him about that subject.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

I think we need to be careful what we ask for.

The difficulties in obtaining NFA items in the past have kept the NFA community fairly small. Most Americans think that machine guns and silencers are illegal. I don't think we need to try to inform them of their ignorance. The wise man once said that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I live in TN, where the previous governor signed a law that requires CLEO sign-off on NFA forms within I believe 15 business days of submission. When I lived in Nashville, I had NO PROBLEM obtaining CLEO signoff before the law with three different chiefs of police. But when I moved to Cheatham County, I heard that the DA was telling the sheriff NOT to sign. In TN, Title II firearms are illegal. Turn the page, and the affirmative defense is having ATF/NFA registration forms. When confronted with this fact, the DA stated that he would still have you arrested and tried, so it would cost you a bunch of money and hassle and hopefully discourage you.

I see no reason to bring unwanted attention to myself by disputing his interpretation. I formed a trust. But if the CLEO signoff requirement goes away, I will stop using the trust for new items.
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

Please keep us posted on this
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colt933</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to be careful what we ask for.

The difficulties in obtaining NFA items in the past have kept the NFA community fairly small. Most Americans think that machine guns and silencers are illegal. I don't think we need to try to inform them of their ignorance. The wise man once said that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I live in TN, where the previous governor signed a law that requires CLEO sign-off on NFA forms within I believe 15 business days of submission. When I lived in Nashville, I had NO PROBLEM obtaining CLEO signoff before the law with three different chiefs of police. But when I moved to Cheatham County, I heard that the DA was telling the sheriff NOT to sign. In TN, Title II firearms are illegal. Turn the page, and the affirmative defense is having ATF/NFA registration forms. When confronted with this fact, the DA stated that he would still have you arrested and tried, so it would cost you a bunch of money and hassle and hopefully discourage you.

I see no reason to bring unwanted attention to myself by disputing his interpretation. I formed a trust. But if the CLEO signoff requirement goes away, I will stop using the trust for new items. </div></div>

Rogue DAs are just as bad as rogue judges. That idiot has an agenda to make a name for himself. Why would you stop using the trust? There are so many more benefits to having a trust other than just circumventing the CLEO signature (e.g. co-trustees, successor trustee, beneficiary, etc.)
 
Re: CLEO signature requirement going away!

so is the cleo sig gone yet?