Consistency, or lack thereof

[Josh Umsted]

Been reloading .308 for a year, upgrading rifle and reloading components one piece at a time, pursuing consistent 1 MOA accuracy. Have achieved good to great results on occasion, but the only thing consistent is that my loads consistently turn to shit the next day.



Shot these two groups recently, thinking I had it. Ive thought that before. There were 20 shots total, the other two groups a little larger but still under 1”. SD 8. ES 12. 20 shots. Avg velocity velocity 2640.

That was the last of the Varget jug. New lot runs about 40fps faster. Tried that, then went down from 42.8 to 42.2gn. Velocity was all over the place. Avg was close to targeted 2740fps. Groups were shit.

Well, I have 100 Lapua cases and maybe 400 Federal cases. Federal isn’t all the same lot and hasn’t been sorted by volume or weight. Maybe the universe won’t let me get away with that and wants me to get more Lapua.

Today, it was Lapua brass, 42.2gn Varget, SMK 168, CCI 210, and a pile of shit. ES 50. SD 18. WTF?

Compared that to what I thought was a good load from a few months ago with Berger 168’s, left over from a match. It wasn’t good. Big groups and big numbers.

Rifle is Remington 700 action, Criterion 24” light varmint, MDT Oryx, Nightforce NX8 4-32.

Reloading equipment is old RCBS rockchucker, charge master light, Redding full length sizing die set to bump shoulder .002”, Forster ultra micrometer seating die, and a 21st century expander mandrel. I trim every time with a Lee deluxe trimmer, if for nothing else, to chamfer the inner neck. On Federal brass it leaves a weird flange around the mouth of the case, which was suspect, and couldn’t be cleaned up with a hand deburring tool. On Lapua brass, no noticeable flange or weirdness around the mouth.

Recently started trying to anneal by hand, rotating case necks under flame until too hot for my fingers. It’s probably inconsistent and may be doing more harm than good. Neck tension and seating force feel much more consistent since using mandrel, Forster seater and annealing.

I suspect the Rockchucker is inadequate, but can’t imagine it’s the main problem. Haven’t checked concentricity. Why buy a gauge only to tell me my process is fucked? I dunno. Had faith the new Chargemaster was accurate, but will need to check that, too. My other scale is a super old Rcbs digital, so not sure how much that will tell me, if anything.

Gonna get a few hundred more Lapua brass to eliminate that variable. Haven’t tried all the bullets or all the powders. Haven’t tried all the expander mandrels. .3065 worked better than .306”.

If there’s anything obvious I could be doing better, feel free to point it out. I’m thinking a few imperfections are adding up to a big imperfection. Then there’s the human factor. I’m not a perfect shot but want my rifle to shoot better than me, and it doesn’t.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

A few thoughts.

• Don't attribute too much (if any) correlation between ES/SD and 100-yard accuracy. I can get sub-MOA accuracy at 100 with bulk-loaded 69gr SMKs in .223/5.56 ammo with ES values in the high double digits.
• There is no way that your press causes high ES/SD. I simply fail to understand why people think they need some special press to achieve consistent seating depth and concentricity. I use a '90s vintage Dillon RL550 and total induced runout (TIR) is consistently less than .002 inches. There's not a thing wrong with a Rockchucker per se.
• With that said - are your primers seated deep enough and consistently enough? I discovered that, for some reason I still haven't figured out, the primer seating function of my RL550 refused to correctly seat large or small primers in any caliber rifle brass I loaded (pistol brass has never presented this issue). Primers were a thousandth or two proud (above case head) which led to TIR of .005 - .006 inches due to case misalignment with the die. Ammo still shot fine. But concentricity issues disappeared after I began using a Frankford Arsenal hand priming tool.
• Can your brass move fairly freely in the press's shell holder? Again, not an obvious contributor to high ES/SD, but tightly-held cases may not be able to align with the seating die. You may want to invest in a concentricity measuring tool... $150ish from RCBS or Hornady.
• Bad powder lot? Six months ago, I would have pretty much discounted the idea. I had used Varget for 6BR since I started the caliber, but I have gotten so disgusted with Hodgdon's pricing on Varget, H4350, and 8208XBR that I have gone exclusively to Vihtavuori powders. When I switched to N150 for 105-class bullets in 6BR, my ES/SD values dropped by nearly half (25-30fps ES down to 15ish). So powder made a difference for me.
• Case prep:
  • You're not annealing if you can hold the case in your fingers. I've inadvertently tried to pick up cases that had been through my AMP annealer a minute or two before. Blisters. You need a machine of some sort.
  • Does your Redding size die use a bushing? If so, try adjusting its height so it stops a couple millimeters above the neck/shoulder junction.
  • What is difference between diameter of resized/mandrel'ed case and a loaded case? Bullet being held too tightly may be a thing.
  • How are you cleaning your brass? Inside of case mouth can be TOO clean imo. I use a dedicated tumbler with corncob media to remove lube; I have found velocity consistency improves if I tumble my resized brass in that relatively greasy media for 20 minutes. That seems to work even better than using graphite-based dry lube in the necks.

I don't know if any of these things will help. At the end of it all, I have found over several years that ES/SD values of around 30/10 give me PRS-match-level accuracy out to 1000+ yards in 6.5CM and 6BR, and 1/2MOA or better to 500+. Reloading .223 has been more challenging; the small case volume amplifies any consistency "blemish" such that I expect 40-50ish feet per second ES... and I still have no problem getting 1/2MOA accuracy to 500+ when the wind cooperates.

Good luck.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I feel for ya, brother. It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things. I use a RCBS Rockchucker from the 70's and haven't been able to prove to myself that it compromises my precision rifle ammunition.

Your attempt at annealing didn't hurt anything and it probably didn't do any annealing either.

I didn't understand if you did something different with the case necks between those groups in the picture and your more recent results.

I would look into the following:
1. Check powder scale. Electric scales have a tendency to drift and may require frequent calibration

2. Check that the primers are getting seated completely. What tool are you using to seat primers? Are you using a different brand/type of primer?

3. If you can recall, try processing the fired brass the same way you did for the shots in the picture.

4. Are you doing something different in measuring the length of loaded cartridges? Are you measuring to the tip of the bullet or using a Comparitor to measure at the ogive?

5. I think you should be able to match velocity like you're doing. Aside from the lot-to-lot variation, the amount of moisture in the powder affects the burn rate and weight of the granules.

6. Only chamfer the case neck if you had to trim the case length.

7. Check the resized case length from base of case to the shoulder.


My brass prep for bolt gun is to clean the outside neck with fine steel wool, run a nylon brush in and out of the neck a couple times. Lube case with die wax, resize with 10 second dwell, then wipe wax off with paper towel. Check case length - only if you do trim case length, then chamfer inside and outside neck. You don't have to clean primer pockets unless it makes you feel better

 

[straightshooter1]

Been reloading .308 for a year, upgrading rifle and reloading components one piece at a time, pursuing consistent 1 MOA accuracy. Have achieved good to great results on occasion, but the only thing consistent is that my loads consistently turn to shit the next day.

View attachment 8714977

Shot these two groups recently, thinking I had it. Ive thought that before. There were 20 shots total, the other two groups a little larger but still under 1”. SD 8. ES 12. 20 shots. Avg velocity velocity 2640.

That was the last of the Varget jug. New lot runs about 40fps faster. Tried that, then went down from 42.8 to 42.2gn. Velocity was all over the place. Avg was close to targeted 2740fps. Groups were shit.

Well, I have 100 Lapua cases and maybe 400 Federal cases. Federal isn’t all the same lot and hasn’t been sorted by volume or weight. Maybe the universe won’t let me get away with that and wants me to get more Lapua.

Today, it was Lapua brass, 42.2gn Varget, SMK 168, CCI 210, and a pile of shit. ES 50. SD 18. WTF?

Compared that to what I thought was a good load from a few months ago with Berger 168’s, left over from a match. It wasn’t good. Big groups and big numbers.

Rifle is Remington 700 action, Criterion 24” light varmint, MDT Oryx, Nightforce NX8 4-32.

Reloading equipment is old RCBS rockchucker, charge master light, Redding full length sizing die set to bump shoulder .002”, Forster ultra micrometer seating die, and a 21st century expander mandrel. I trim every time with a Lee deluxe trimmer, if for nothing else, to chamfer the inner neck. On Federal brass it leaves a weird flange around the mouth of the case, which was suspect, and couldn’t be cleaned up with a hand deburring tool. On Lapua brass, no noticeable flange or weirdness around the mouth.

Recently started trying to anneal by hand, rotating case necks under flame until too hot for my fingers. It’s probably inconsistent and may be doing more harm than good. Neck tension and seating force feel much more consistent since using mandrel, Forster seater and annealing.

I suspect the Rockchucker is inadequate, but can’t imagine it’s the main problem. Haven’t checked concentricity. Why buy a gauge only to tell me my process is fucked? I dunno. Had faith the new Chargemaster was accurate, but will need to check that, too. My other scale is a super old Rcbs digital, so not sure how much that will tell me, if anything.

Gonna get a few hundred more Lapua brass to eliminate that variable. Haven’t tried all the bullets or all the powders. Haven’t tried all the expander mandrels. .3065 worked better than .306”.

If there’s anything obvious I could be doing better, feel free to point it out. I’m thinking a few imperfections are adding up to a big imperfection. Then there’s the human factor. I’m not a perfect shot but want my rifle to shoot better than me, and it doesn’t.

Hmmmm??? Some numbers you've stated don't add up. If your new lot of Varget is giving you 40 fps faster than the 2640 fps you got with the old lot, that mean you'd be looking at 2680 fps. . . not 2740. Or, was this 2740 just a typo and you meant 2640?

If I understand you correctly, you had good results from Berger 168's and when you went to 168 SMK's you got "a pile of shit". This is not surprising, though the two bullets are the same weight, they're not the same design and will react to your load and barrel differently (especially if the 168 Berger you mention is their VLD). And if you're trying to measure and seat them with the same die settings, they're going to be sitting in the case very differently.

With a new lot of powder and a different bullet, you've simply got a very different ball game.

BTW: as previously mentioned, you annealing technique is actually doing nothing to you brass. You've got to get you're necks to where they just turn red for a second (as viewed in a darkened room), which indicates they've gotten to ~1,100°F (650°C). It's that temperature for a very short time that gets you the annealing done. You won't be able to do that holding the case with your fingers. But you can use a socket mounted in a drill and figure out the timing, though an inexpensive machine with a timer can produce pretty consistent results.

 

[Josh Umsted]

A few thoughts.

• Don't attribute too much (if any) correlation between ES/SD and 100-yard accuracy. I can get sub-MOA accuracy at 100 with bulk-loaded 69gr SMKs in .223/5.56 ammo with ES values in the high double digits.
• There is no way that your press causes high ES/SD. I simply fail to understand why people think they need some special press to achieve consistent seating depth and concentricity. I use a '90s vintage Dillon RL550 and total induced runout (TIR) is consistently less than .002 inches. There's not a thing wrong with a Rockchucker per se.
• With that said - are your primers seated deep enough and consistently enough? I discovered that, for some reason I still haven't figured out, the primer seating function of my RL550 refused to correctly seat large or small primers in any caliber rifle brass I loaded (pistol brass has never presented this issue). Primers were a thousandth or two proud (above case head) which led to TIR of .005 - .006 inches due to case misalignment with the die. Ammo still shot fine. But concentricity issues disappeared after I began using a Frankford Arsenal hand priming tool.
• Can your brass move fairly freely in the press's shell holder? Again, not an obvious contributor to high ES/SD, but tightly-held cases may not be able to align with the seating die. You may want to invest in a concentricity measuring tool... $150ish from RCBS or Hornady.
• Bad powder lot? Six months ago, I would have pretty much discounted the idea. I had used Varget for 6BR since I started the caliber, but I have gotten so disgusted with Hodgdon's pricing on Varget, H4350, and 8208XBR that I have gone exclusively to Vihtavuori powders. When I switched to N150 for 105-class bullets in 6BR, my ES/SD values dropped by nearly half (25-30fps ES down to 15ish). So powder made a difference for me.
• Case prep:
  • You're not annealing if you can hold the case in your fingers. I've inadvertently tried to pick up cases that had been through my AMP annealer a minute or two before. Blisters. You need a machine of some sort.
  • Does your Redding size die use a bushing? If so, try adjusting its height so it stops a couple millimeters above the neck/shoulder junction.
  • What is difference between diameter of resized/mandrel'ed case and a loaded case? Bullet being held too tightly may be a thing.
  • How are you cleaning your brass? Inside of case mouth can be TOO clean imo. I use a dedicated tumbler with corncob media to remove lube; I have found velocity consistency improves if I tumble my resized brass in that relatively greasy media for 20 minutes. That seems to work even better than using graphite-based dry lube in the necks.

I don't know if any of these things will help. At the end of it all, I have found over several years that ES/SD values of around 30/10 give me PRS-match-level accuracy out to 1000+ yards in 6.5CM and 6BR, and 1/2MOA or better to 500+. Reloading .223 has been more challenging; the small case volume amplifies any consistency "blemish" such that I expect 40-50ish feet per second ES... and I still have no problem getting 1/2MOA accuracy to 500+ when the wind cooperates.

Good luck.

Thanks. Been considering switching to N150 as well, for a few reasons. Will check everything else you listed. Since I don’t need to rush out and get a $1k press, a concentricity gauge and annealer sound more affordable.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Hmmmm??? Some numbers you've stated don't add up. If your new lot of Varget is giving you 40 fps faster than the 2640 fps you got with the old lot, that mean you'd be looking at 2680 fps. . . not 2740. Or, was this 2740 just a typo and you meant 2640?

If I understand you correctly, you had good results from Berger 168's and when you went to 168 SMK's you got "a pile of shit". This is not surprising, though the two bullets are the same weight, they're not the same design and will react to your load and barrel differently (especially if the 168 Berger you mention is their VLD). And if you're trying to measure and seat them with the same die settings, they're going to be sitting in the case very differently.

With a new lot of powder and a different bullet, you've simply got a very different ball game.

BTW: as previously mentioned, you annealing technique is actually doing nothing to you brass. You've got to get you're necks to where they just turn red for a second (as viewed in a darkened room), which indicates they've gotten to ~1,100°F (650°C). It's that temperature for a very short time that gets you the annealing done. You won't be able to do that holding the case with your fingers. But you can use a socket mounted in a drill and figure out the timing, though an inexpensive machine with a timer can produce pretty consistent results.

Yeah, typo on the velocity.

Regarding bullets, Ive had good results with bergers and sierras. Sierra seems to group a bit better but also liked to go faster, close to 2650, and I started getting pressure signs, so switched back to bergers which liked 2610FPS. When they were gone, tried SMK again and shot the attached groups, after some seating depth testing. Bought 500 more SMKs and am having trouble getting them to shoot again.

 

[straightshooter1]

Yeah, typo on the velocity.

Regarding bullets, Ive had good results with bergers and sierras. Sierra seems to group a bit better but also liked to go faster, close to 2650, and I started getting pressure signs, so switched back to bergers which liked 2610FPS. When they were gone, tried SMK again and shot the attached groups, after some seating depth testing. Bought 500 more SMKs and am having trouble getting them to shoot again.

I haven't used Varget in a long time since I switched to AR-Comp, but looking back at my data, 42.2 grs of Varget didn't do particularly well for me pushing 168 SMK's with a COAL of 2.846" (decent SD's and ES's, but poor groups out of a Krieger 24" barrel). 43.0 grains worked really well for me with the same COAL giving me 2670 fps with sub .5 MOA's and low SD's and ES's (like 4.7 SD, 22 ES); ambient temperatures these were fired in was at 75°F and with no pressure signs. I wouldn't expect your new lot of powder to produce the same results my old powder, as it probably has a very different burn rate and my barrel was a heavy varmint.

I'm thinking, since you changed from Federal brass (which, BTW, is what I used to use too) to Lapua, you might need to test some different neck tensions??? I've found little difference between my Federal brass and Lapua brass case volumes, but Federal is a little softer brass than Lapua that can affect that interference.

 

[Josh Umsted]

I haven't used Varget in a long time since I switched to AR-Comp, but looking back at my data, 42.2 grs of Varget didn't do particularly well for me pushing 168 SMK's with a COAL of 2.846" (decent SD's and ES's, but poor groups out of a Krieger 24" barrel). 43.0 grains worked really well for me with the same COAL giving me 2670 fps with sub .5 MOA's and low SD's and ES's (like 4.7 SD, 22 ES); ambient temperatures these were fired in was at 75°F and with no pressure signs. I wouldn't expect your new lot of powder to produce the same results my old powder, as it probably has a very different burn rate and my barrel was a heavy varmint.

I'm thinking, since you changed from Federal brass (which, BTW, is what I used to use too) to Lapua, you might need to test some different neck tensions??? I've found little difference between my Federal brass and Lapua brass case volumes, but Federal is a little softer brass than Lapua that can affect that interference.

I suspect neck tension is the biggest issue. Started a couple months ago with the mandrel die and have only tried two sizes so far. The Forster seating die came next, about a month ago. Neck tension feels much more consistent than when using the expander ball in Redding fl die. Seating depth, measured from base to ogive, is more consistent, too.

Primers could be an issue, too. Ive not been able to find the same primers twice in a row. Was also gifted a selection of 40 y.o. primers which I don’t want to mess with much, though I did try some magnums and cci BR. Had trouble seating both of those for some reason. They didn’t want to go completely in. With the current, new cci primers, seating depth seems consistent, but I haven’t measured it.

 

[Josh Umsted]

I feel for ya, brother. It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things. I use a RCBS Rockchucker from the 70's and haven't been able to prove to myself that it compromises my precision rifle ammunition.

Your attempt at annealing didn't hurt anything and it probably didn't do any annealing either.

I didn't understand if you did something different with the case necks between those groups in the picture and your more recent results.

I would look into the following:
1. Check powder scale. Electric scales have a tendency to drift and may require frequent calibration

2. Check that the primers are getting seated completely. What tool are you using to seat primers? Are you using a different brand/type of primer?

3. If you can recall, try processing the fired brass the same way you did for the shots in the picture.

4. Are you doing something different in measuring the length of loaded cartridges? Are you measuring to the tip of the bullet or using a Comparitor to measure at the ogive?

5. I think you should be able to match velocity like you're doing. Aside from the lot-to-lot variation, the amount of moisture in the powder affects the burn rate and weight of the granules.

6. Only chamfer the case neck if you had to trim the case length.

7. Check the resized case length from base of case to the shoulder.


My brass prep for bolt gun is to clean the outside neck with fine steel wool, run a nylon brush in and out of the neck a couple times. Lube case with die wax, resize with 10 second dwell, then wipe wax off with paper towel. Check case length - only if you do trim case length, then chamfer inside and outside neck. You don't have to clean primer pockets unless it makes you feel better

Letting this all sink in. I try to prep the brass the same every time. I shot the good groups with Federal brass. Tried to repeat the good results with Federal brass and got poor results, though that was with the new lot of powder. Adjusted the powder charge with Federal brass. Still bad. Switched to Lapua. Better, but not good. I haven’t cleaned the necks as you suggest. Will try that.

Regarding chamfering the case mouths only after trimming, when they need to be trimmed, it’s worth a try. I started chamfering every time as I read something somewhere about Brian Litz stating chamfering was critical to precision. Looking that up again, he seemed to say it was more critical after trimming.

I use the press to prime cases and buy primers by the 1000. Still on the same lot of cci. Getting close to the end of those. Who knows what will be available when I go to buy them. The primer seating depth seems consistent, though not measured. I have tried Winchester magnums and cci benchrest, both 40 years old and free to me, which didn’t want to seat all the way. Also, when tumbling unprimed cases, had trouble with cleaning media in the primer pocket which was tough to remove. Now, if I do feel the need for shiny brass, I tumble before deprimimg and don’t clean the primer pockets.

I’ll figure it out. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Josh Umsted]

Key points as I understand:

Get an annealing machine.

Allow cases to dwell in the sizing die. New concept for me. Makes sense.

Check concentricity of sized cases as well as loaded cartridges. My Redding fl die is not bushing type. Maybe a bushing die is better.

Only trim when necessary, and only chamfer after trimming.

Clean case necks inside & out.

Shoot until the barrel is shot out.

Repeat.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Start with checking everything on your rifle. Scope rings, base, and action torqued properly, etc. I once had a rifle that all of a sudden started shooting bad and discovered that the front ring had loosened at the base.

A good barrel and quality bullets are where accuracy begins. I usually see better results on target with Berger than Sierra, but have shot many half sub 1/2 MOA groups with Sierra.

Redding makes very good dies and there is nothing wrong with a Rockchucker. On some of my brass, I like to use a mandrel die to set neck tension. Annealing really helps with tension and the shoulder bump. Make sure you anneal BEFORE sizing.

My belief is that you can get good groups from almost any powder that has the correct burn rate window for your cartridge. I've seen some pretty amazing groups from surplus ball powders. Varget is a powder that a lot of people swear by, but I have used many other powders with succes. TAC, RL15, N140, 8208XBR, and H4895 may not give the highest velocity, but have shot well for me in 308.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Start with checking everything on your rifle. Scope rings, base, and action torqued properly, etc.

This. I had a range day at a venue some distance from me... POI kept shifting just enough to make me annoyed...

... brake had come loose.

 

[CK1.0]

IMHO, nobody’s load “goes to shit the next day” due to outside circumstances.

As far as I can tell, the issue seems to be that too many guys have no problem putting all kinds of time and effort into “load development”, like some vision quest or something… and then usually not nearly enough time and effort into “shooter development”.

Working on one’s NPA and skills as a shooter seems to get neglected while guys drive back and forth to the range doing “load development” almost like they’re hoping some magic load will make everything wonderful and make the gun shoot itself.

I don’t even really do any load development anymore (and haven’t for ~4 barrels or so now). I just pick a speed, pick a CBTO, and then make sure every single one of my rounds comes out as close to exactly the same as the next as I possibly can. No unexplained scientific fantasies like “nodes” or any other legacy reloading lore BS needed.

Miraculously, I always end up in what some guys might call a mythical “node” anyway. And If the monkey pulling the trigger shoots good, the load shoots good.

It’s sad to see so many guys at my club wasting half of their fancy “long-range” rifle’s barrel life on groups at 100 yards when their load isn’t the problem.

If those 2 groups are 10 shots each, your load is fine, go shoot.

 

[Josh Umsted]

IMHO, nobody’s load “goes to shit the next day” due to outside circumstances.

As far as I can tell, the issue seems to be that too many guys have no problem putting all kinds of time and effort into “load development”, like some vision quest or something… and then usually not nearly enough time and effort into “shooter development”.

Working on one’s NPA and skills as a shooter seems to get neglected while guys drive back and forth to the range doing “load development” almost like they’re hoping some magic load will make everything wonderful and make the gun shoot itself.

I don’t even really do any load development anymore (and haven’t for ~4 barrels or so now). I just pick a speed, pick a CBTO, and then make sure every single one of my rounds comes out as close to exactly the same as the next as I possibly can. No unexplained scientific fantasies like “nodes” or any other legacy reloading lore BS needed.

Miraculously, I always end up in what some guys might call a mythical “node” anyway. And If the monkey pulling the trigger shoots good, the load shoots good.

It’s sad to see so many guys at my club wasting half of their fancy “long-range” rifle’s barrel life on groups at 100 yards when their load isn’t the problem.

If those 2 groups are 10 shots each, your load is fine, go shoot.

Agreed. I spend more time working on fundamentals than load development. When testing ammo, I shoot mostly prone. NPA, recoil management and follow through could all be better. When results on paper aren’t as good as I like, I usually blame me.

Finding a good load is getting easier. If a load groups ok and has good es/sd for 20 rounds, I’ll go ahead and load a couple hundred.

That’s what I did for a recent match. It was fine until I got to a deer at 800 yards. All my shots were close, either a little high or low. RO let me keep shooting after the stage and despite a pretty solid sitting position, good wind call, and breaking what felt like clean shots, still couldn’t hit it. Got home and ran more rounds over the chronograph. SD/ES were not great.

So I’m trying to refine my process to be more consistent, not necessarily a better load. Practicing on paper at 100 yards, I’d like to know for sure it’s shooter error causing less than great results. I’m good enough to know when I pull a shot, or when a bad position is causing a poi shift.

 

[Josh Umsted]

This. I had a range day at a venue some distance from me... POI kept shifting just enough to make me annoyed...

... brake had come loose.

Been there. I check regularly. Wouldn’t think a loose connector would cause variance in sd/es.

 

[Josh Umsted]

My belief is that you can get good groups from almost any powder that has the correct burn rate window for your cartridge. I've seen some pretty amazing groups from surplus ball powders. Varget is a powder that a lot of people swear by, but I have used many other powders with succes. TAC, RL15, N140, 8208XBR, and H4895 may not give the highest velocity, but have shot well for me in 308.

Yep. 4895 worked great. Will try vihtavouri. It’s less expensive than Varget. 3031 is an option to maybe get more velocity and less pressure. Had a situation with a great load, but got pressure signs, so had to back off the charge.

 

[CK1.0]

Agreed. I spend more time working on fundamentals than load development. When testing ammo, I shoot mostly prone. NPA, recoil management and follow through could all be better. When results on paper aren’t as good as I like, I usually blame me.

Finding a good load is getting easier. If a load groups ok and has good es/sd for 20 rounds, I’ll go ahead and load a couple hundred.

That’s what I did for a recent match. It was fine until I got to a deer at 800 yards. All my shots were close, either a little high or low. RO let me keep shooting after the stage and despite a pretty solid sitting position, good wind call, and breaking what felt like clean shots, still couldn’t hit it. Got home and ran more rounds over the chronograph. SD/ES were not great.

So I’m trying to refine my process to be more consistent, not necessarily a better load. Practicing on paper at 100 yards, I’d like to know for sure it’s shooter error causing less than great results. I’m good enough to know when I pull a shot, or when a bad position is causing a poi shift.

Sounds like you have a good grip on what’s going on. My point was just to not stress on the perfect load too much is all.

In lieu of overdoing it at the 100 yard line, IMHO more guys would be better off saving those rounds for sending out to 1000-1300 yards to really get their true BC nailed down (which it sounds like might have been what got you on that 800 yard stage)…

 

[JerkyFreak]

Basically, Berger bullets (not VLD), lapua cases, BR2/4 primers and what ever powder works well and you will have a good load.

It is only when you divert from the above recipe that you actually need to do load development.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Sounds like you have a good grip on what’s going on. My point was just to not stress on the perfect load too much is all.

In lieu of overdoing it at the 100 yard line, IMHO more guys would be better off saving those rounds for sending out to 1000-1300 yards to really get their true BC nailed down (which it sounds like might have been what got you on that 800 yard stage)…

Cool. The plan is to load 300 consistent rounds and head to a 1000 yard range 5 hours away. My range only goes to 200. Was gonna take what was left after the last match, but they turned out to be less consistent the more of them I chronographed. Wanna take consistent ammo to validate long range data.

My arca rail was, in fact, loose, so thanks for the reminder.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Scales checked. Neck tension measured .002”. CBTO 2.231” and very consistent.

Brass was already prepped. Brushed inside the necks. Bumped powder charge up .2 to 42.4.

13 out of 20 shots hit the 3/4” ring , presuming 4 shots from the first bull hit. Last bull, rifle and I were both getting hot. Pulled one high. Wide shot at 3 was mirage.

Ordering more Lapua brass.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Basically, Berger bullets (not VLD), lapua cases, BR2/4 primers and what ever powder works well and you will have a good load.

It is only when you divert from the above recipe that you actually need to do load development.

Must be my lucky day. Found Lapua brass on sale and cci br2’s in stock.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Key points as I understand:

Get an annealing machine.

Allow cases to dwell in the sizing die. New concept for me. Makes sense.

Check concentricity of sized cases as well as loaded cartridges. My Redding fl die is not bushing type. Maybe a bushing die is better.

Only trim when necessary, and only chamfer after trimming.

Clean case necks inside & out.

Shoot until the barrel is shot out.

Repeat.

Yes to all of the above with one exception. Necks that are too clean will create a lot of variability during seating. Using neck lube alleviates this.

To the above items, I would add:
- Get a mandrel and associated die (they are cheap) and run the cases through the mandrel die after sizing

Most importantly:
- Pick a bullet and stick with it (hint: Berger)
- Pick a powder and stick with it (hint: use a powder known to deliver good results like Varget or equivalent)
- Pick a case and stick with it (hint: Lapua... always Lapua)
- Pick a primer and stick with it

Switching components just adds too many variables. You're throwing darts at a board... blindfolded.

 

[CK1.0]

It's funny you guys are on to trimming and chamfering and stuff like that... IMO, I think the little stuff like that is really where one can see real improvement in their ammo/reloading with just some simple tweaks if they're really willing to scrutenize how they do shit.

Without having to buy anything, there are almost always little things most guys can do to make their ammo come out better. It just requires one to critically look at what they're already doing in all their steps and figure out if adjusting things slightly here and there might improve the process.

Like when it comes to cleaning brass... what you do with it dictates how you attack it IMO.

Like with run-and-gun blaster ammo, wet-tumbling is great, since those cases get trampled into the ground and need a proper cleaning before seeing one's dies. But wet-tumbling also majorly beats the shit out of cases (as does the media sepertion process, if one is using SS pins or something), and brass is soft, so one would be dumb to not consider that. I wouldn't purposely treat any brass that's meant for precision shooting or really hitting anything beyond ~200 yards like that. So, for me, wet-tumbling blaster 9mm/.556 is the way... but for my fancy long-range/precision stuff? Nope.

Guys who are wet-tumbling their precision cases are leaving accuracy and better SD/ES numbers on the table, period. But, for the sake of really shiny brass that looks like new, a lot of them still do it and might pipe up at any minute to say I'm full of shit (even though I'm not, because facts are facts, and brass that hasn't had the shit kicked out of it every loading cycle performs better, it just does).

Most times, I don't even clean my brass before sizing. If it comes out of my chamber without landing in mud, I just anneal it, spray it with lube, and then size it. I then dry tumble the lube off in 20-40 grit corn cob blasting media (which is at least twice as fine as the usual tumbling media most are used to). Why? After tumbling, it pours out of the cases like water when I pick them up with my hand, instead of having to beat the shit out them by twirling them around or sifting them or whatever with a media seperator.

One's chronograph will make the difference obvious.

Trimming/Chamfer.... some guys are obsessed with this and like to argue over which $600 trimmer is best. I trim once over the life of a barrel (right before I spin a new one on). Why? Because it doesn't fucking matter. As long as the cases aren't too long and are all relatively the same length, there's no reason to bother with it. Save like $550 and just buy a drill-mounted trimmer and use the cordless drill you already have.

IMO, chamfering the inside of one's case mouths before seating bullets is important, and I do it every time. Why? Bullets are expensive, and I want all of the slippery aero and BC I paid for, so scratching every single one of them while seating them seems kind of dumb. The only time I ever deburr the outside of case mouths is after they've been freshly trimmed or brand new (so not very often).

I've even looked into whether using the mandrel right after the FL die was as good as first FL sizing and then waiting until after the cases came out of the tumbler (after having the sizing lube tumbled off) to do the mandrel step... turns out waiting is unequiviquoly better, I never knew how much the case mouths/necks were getting fucked (even with my "gentle" dry tumbling with the balsting media). Leftover dust in the necks from the tumble even makes the mandrel step go easier without me having to use any lube.

When it comes to lubing necks before seating bullets, yes, the juice is worth the squeeze if one is willing to do it (and they should do it).

It doesn't have to be a pain in the ass, time consuming, or even make one have to buy anything special either. After trying just about everything (graphite dust, that fancy stuff @Rocketmandb uses and recommended that I can't remember the name of, etc), it turned out that for me, the same IPA/lanolin lube mix I use for sizing works best; all I needed was a Q-tip. Wetting the end of a Q-tip with some lanolin and doing a quick swirl inside the case mouths only takes a couple of minutes (even if one goes slow), works as good as or better than anything else, and vaporizes when you pull the trigger.

These are just some examples that came to mind, but there are more... the little stuff can really add up. And just about all of it is far more impactful than plus/minus a couple/few tenths of a grain of powder charge or a couple/few thou here or there on seating depth or minute/inconsequential variences in concentricity.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Yes to all of the above with one exception. Necks that are too clean will create a lot of variability during seating. Using neck lube alleviates this.

To the above items, I would add:
- Get a mandrel and associated die (they are cheap) and run the cases through the mandrel die after sizing

Most importantly:
- Pick a bullet and stick with it (hint: Berger)
- Pick a powder and stick with it (hint: use a powder known to deliver good results like Varget or equivalent)
- Pick a case and stick with it (hint: Lapua... always Lapua)
- Pick a primer and stick with it

Switching components just adds too many variables. You're throwing darts at a board... blindfolded.

Thanks. I get it. Been using .3065 mandrel. Also tried .306. I like hornady one shot case lube. Quick, effective inside & out. Also have graphite neck lube in case I miss the inside with the spray, like 4 out of 100 last time. Mandrel felt sticky so dipped those mouths rather than forcing them. I don’t clean the cases after lubing and sizing. Thought maybe brushing out the necks after trimming would be a good idea.

Berger’s are great. SMK’s produced the same consistency and generally better groups, so gave them another try. Imagine Berger weights are more consistent. Gonna weigh some of each today.

Primers are hard to find. Been searching for a year and found some yesterday. Got 2 cartons. Lapua brass on the way, too. Tried to make the federal work as I shot a ton of factory ammo.

Varget is fine. Vihtavuori is less expensive and maybe more available. Almost out, so now might be a good time to switch. Should be easy to adjust the charge to achieve 2640fps, which the sierras like.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Interesting results today. Had 50 brass prepped, same as last time. Sorted 47 SMK’s by weight. 50% were 168gn. Others varied by up to .5gn. Loaded em up and went shooting.

Started off pretty, then maybe pulled one right. Second group started trending high. Maybe too much cheek pressure. Relax. Same thing on #3. 4-6, all high. Sight adjustment was off. Came down .5 and hit low. Back to 0. Still high. Took short breaks between strings. Barrel was pretty hot.

Took a break, came down .3 and did this. Not horrible.

numbers weren’t great. Sd first 25 9.3, es 30. 47 shots, sd 12, es 65. Only 7 shots ruined otherwise ok numbers. One was +35fps.

Avg velocity +10 fps, ambient temp 91, -10 deg.

 

[ShtrRdy]

What distance were you shooting? And to double check -- are these all the same load?

 

[Josh Umsted]

100 yards prone, all the same load as previous outing. Only change was weighed bullets, all 168gn.

 

[CK1.0]

Interesting results today. Had 50 brass prepped, same as last time. Sorted 47 SMK’s by weight. 50% were 168gn. Others varied by up to .5gn. Loaded em up and went shooting.

View attachment 8718991
Started off pretty, then maybe pulled one right. Second group started trending high. Maybe too much cheek pressure. Relax. Same thing on #3. 4-6, all high. Sight adjustment was off. Came down .5 and hit low. Back to 0. Still high. Took short breaks between strings. Barrel was pretty hot.

View attachment 8719001
Took a break, came down .3 and did this. Not horrible.

numbers weren’t great. Sd first 25 9.3, es 30. 47 shots, sd 12, es 65. Only 7 shots ruined otherwise ok numbers. One was +35fps.

Avg velocity +10 fps, ambient temp 91, -10 deg.

Not to sound like a dick, but out of genuine curiosity and possibly a better diagnosis, those groups are kind of all over the place and sort of makes me want to hear more about the gun..?

Your first group, where most are touching or went through the same hole is more what we’re looking for and more like what I’m used to seeing (and I’m not that good, but run a bunny-fart soft 22lb 6GT/6CM with an ~8oz trigger lol).

It makes me wonder if your load is fine, and if maybe there’s something else as far as gunfit or weight or whatever that’s not letting you meet your expectations?

I mean, depending on your rig, a lighter .308 can be a bit of a bear, you could throw a heavy sand-filled Gamechanger over the top of the scope to turn your rig into a boat anchor just to proof out what you’ve really got…

 

[WeR0206]

Been reloading .308 for a year, upgrading rifle and reloading components one piece at a time, pursuing consistent 1 MOA accuracy. Have achieved good to great results on occasion, but the only thing consistent is that my loads consistently turn to shit the next day.

View attachment 8714977

Shot these two groups recently, thinking I had it. Ive thought that before. There were 20 shots total, the other two groups a little larger but still under 1”. SD 8. ES 12. 20 shots. Avg velocity velocity 2640.

That was the last of the Varget jug. New lot runs about 40fps faster. Tried that, then went down from 42.8 to 42.2gn. Velocity was all over the place. Avg was close to targeted 2740fps. Groups were shit.

Well, I have 100 Lapua cases and maybe 400 Federal cases. Federal isn’t all the same lot and hasn’t been sorted by volume or weight. Maybe the universe won’t let me get away with that and wants me to get more Lapua.

Today, it was Lapua brass, 42.2gn Varget, SMK 168, CCI 210, and a pile of shit. ES 50. SD 18. WTF?

Compared that to what I thought was a good load from a few months ago with Berger 168’s, left over from a match. It wasn’t good. Big groups and big numbers.

Rifle is Remington 700 action, Criterion 24” light varmint, MDT Oryx, Nightforce NX8 4-32.

Reloading equipment is old RCBS rockchucker, charge master light, Redding full length sizing die set to bump shoulder .002”, Forster ultra micrometer seating die, and a 21st century expander mandrel. I trim every time with a Lee deluxe trimmer, if for nothing else, to chamfer the inner neck. On Federal brass it leaves a weird flange around the mouth of the case, which was suspect, and couldn’t be cleaned up with a hand deburring tool. On Lapua brass, no noticeable flange or weirdness around the mouth.

Recently started trying to anneal by hand, rotating case necks under flame until too hot for my fingers. It’s probably inconsistent and may be doing more harm than good. Neck tension and seating force feel much more consistent since using mandrel, Forster seater and annealing.

I suspect the Rockchucker is inadequate, but can’t imagine it’s the main problem. Haven’t checked concentricity. Why buy a gauge only to tell me my process is fucked? I dunno. Had faith the new Chargemaster was accurate, but will need to check that, too. My other scale is a super old Rcbs digital, so not sure how much that will tell me, if anything.

Gonna get a few hundred more Lapua brass to eliminate that variable. Haven’t tried all the bullets or all the powders. Haven’t tried all the expander mandrels. .3065 worked better than .306”.

If there’s anything obvious I could be doing better, feel free to point it out. I’m thinking a few imperfections are adding up to a big imperfection. Then there’s the human factor. I’m not a perfect shot but want my rifle to shoot better than me, and it doesn’t.

You might have a fussy powder/bullet combo. I would highly recommend you check out the reloading series on YouTube done by little crow gun works. Once you pick your bullet for your use case and have a batch of brass you can use gordons reloading tool (free software) to figure out charge weights for 2-3 powders that range from 50k to 62k psi. Then (if testing 3 powders) you set up your target with 3 points of aim (see below target).

Here’s a link to the series by little crow gunworks on precision handloading for 308 (Start your ladder test from 50,000 psi up to your max of 62-65K for 308. Look for high % case fill (90% - 105%) and high % powder burn (99% -100%)).

If using an extruded powder and you have an extreme spread in the speed of more than 30 it’s likely because not all of the powder is being burned and it’s causing wildly inconsistent speeds. To tell if the selected powder is too fast you will be at max charge but case fill will only be at something like 91% instead of closer to 100%. Pick a brand of brass, primer, and specific bullet and stick with that combo while you try different powders, once you find a good powder try different charge weights and COAL’s with ladder tests.

Once you have Gordon’s tool trued up, do a 10 shot ladder test (starting at 50K and working up to 62ish) to explore a powder and figure out if the gun is happy with that combo. For increments try to use the smallest possible for your pressure range. Start at 62K psi based on the temp for the day then work your way down to 50K. To find increment size take your max charge weight based on the temp for the day and multiply it by .0045 and also by .006. This gives you the starting and ending points for the increment size. Example for max charge of 43.6 → 43.6 *.0045 = .1962…43.6 *.006 = .2616 (your increment size should be between .196 and .261 grains for best resolution). For 308 he used 0.2gr increments. 1 round of each for 15 charge weights (spanning the 50K to 62K pressure range) for each of his 3 powders. If you test 5 powders it would take 75 shots. For the first powder you would fire all 15 shots at the same point of aim/target then repeat for the other 4, so you would need 5 targets on your piece of paper/cardboard. Make sure to cool off the barrel in between each batch. Shoot the shots for powder A then let the chamber cooler run for 1-2 mins. Shoot the powders in a round robin format (see 28 min mark of part 12) until all shots are done.

In below example powder C is the best/least fussy bullet/powder combo (consistent point of impact with various pressures is more important than group size (can handle changes in temp better, etc.). Once you figure out which powder is best for that bullet, test the powder more thoroughly by loading up 3-5 shots at each charge weight and each charge gets its own target.

Part 13: do a 10-15 shot group of all the powders (50-62K pressure range in 0.2gr increments) then look for groups less than 2” and for those powders do a ladder test with same increments but 3 shots for each on instead of 1. Then find avg point of impact (API) that is consistent among 4-5 targets and the mid point should be your charge (see stars in below screenshot (ladder test for powder C)) this will keep the API, consistent regardless of changes and temperature, etc.)

For seating depth pick the longest one in the accuracy window that way as the throat wears accuracy will stay the same.

 

[CK1.0]

 

[Josh Umsted]

Not to sound like a dick, but out of genuine curiosity and possibly a better diagnosis, those groups are kind of all over the place and sort of makes me want to hear more about the gun..?

Your first group, where most are touching or went through the same hole is more what we’re looking for and more like what I’m used to seeing (and I’m not that good, but run a bunny-fart soft 22lb 6GT/6CM with an ~8oz trigger lol).

It makes me wonder if your load is fine, and if maybe there’s something else as far as gunfit or weight or whatever that’s not letting you meet your expectations?

I mean, depending on your rig, a lighter .308 can be a bit of a bear, you could throw a heavy sand-filled Gamechanger over the top of the scope to turn your rig into a boat anchor just to proof out what you’ve really got…

Rifle isn’t anything fancy. REM 700, Criterion 24” light varmint, oryx chassis, atlas Apollo brake, Nightforce nx8, TT diamond, acu tac bipod.. Pieced it together over the past year. Next rifle will be better. 25 creed sounds fun.

Groups today grew progressively worse. Heat was a factor. Poi started to rise. Groups opened up. The first group, all the centers in the next two groups, and hitting the dot consistently makes me think I’m shooting ok. I did have to learn to shoot prone all over again. Shot old school bladed position for smallbore. It’s been an adjustment. Today it felt good. Could still benefit from some live coaching.

Bergers and br2 primers should improve things.

 

[Josh Umsted]

You might have a fussy powder/bullet combo. I would highly recommend you check out the reloading series on YouTube done by little crow gun works. Once you pick your bullet for your use case and have a batch of brass you can use gordons reloading tool (free software) to figure out charge weights for 2-3 powders that range from 50k to 62k psi. Then (if testing 3 powders) you set up your target with 3 points of aim (see below target).

Here’s a link to the series by little crow gunworks on precision handloading for 308 (Start your ladder test from 50,000 psi up to your max of 62-65K for 308. Look for high % case fill (90% - 105%) and high % powder burn (99% -100%)).

If using an extruded powder and you have an extreme spread in the speed of more than 30 it’s likely because not all of the powder is being burned and it’s causing wildly inconsistent speeds. To tell if the selected powder is too fast you will be at max charge but case fill will only be at something like 91% instead of closer to 100%. Pick a brand of brass, primer, and specific bullet and stick with that combo while you try different powders, once you find a good powder try different charge weights and COAL’s with ladder tests.

Once you have Gordon’s tool trued up, do a 10 shot ladder test (starting at 50K and working up to 62ish) to explore a powder and figure out if the gun is happy with that combo. For increments try to use the smallest possible for your pressure range. Start at 62K psi based on the temp for the day then work your way down to 50K. To find increment size take your max charge weight based on the temp for the day and multiply it by .0045 and also by .006. This gives you the starting and ending points for the increment size. Example for max charge of 43.6 → 43.6 *.0045 = .1962…43.6 *.006 = .2616 (your increment size should be between .196 and .261 grains for best resolution). For 308 he used 0.2gr increments. 1 round of each for 15 charge weights (spanning the 50K to 62K pressure range) for each of his 3 powders. If you test 5 powders it would take 75 shots. For the first powder you would fire all 15 shots at the same point of aim/target then repeat for the other 4, so you would need 5 targets on your piece of paper/cardboard. Make sure to cool off the barrel in between each batch. Shoot the shots for powder A then let the chamber cooler run for 1-2 mins. Shoot the powders in a round robin format (see 28 min mark of part 12) until all shots are done.

In below example powder C is the best/least fussy bullet/powder combo (consistent point of impact with various pressures is more important than group size (can handle changes in temp better, etc.). Once you figure out which powder is best for that bullet, test the powder more thoroughly by loading up 3-5 shots at each charge weight and each charge gets its own target.

View attachment 8719165

Part 13: do a 10-15 shot group of all the powders (50-62K pressure range in 0.2gr increments) then look for groups less than 2” and for those powders do a ladder test with same increments but 3 shots for each on instead of 1. Then find avg point of impact (API) that is consistent among 4-5 targets and the mid point should be your charge (see stars in below screenshot (ladder test for powder C)) this will keep the API, consistent regardless of changes and temperature, etc.)

View attachment 8719169

For seating depth pick the longest one in the accuracy window that way as the throat wears accuracy will stay the same.

Great info. Thanks. Will check out little crow. Interesting point about inconsistent powder burn. Ordered bergers, br2’s and more Lapua brass. Still thinking about powder, will probably try n140.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Still thinking about powder, will probably try n140.

I'm using N540 in mine, have switched to N568 in my 300 PRC, and am working up a load in my 37XC with N570. I tend to like the VVN5XX powders because:

- They are very consistent
- They are very available

The only thing I don't like about (some of) them is that the kernels are large and get stuck every so often in my auto trickler. That's only for the N568 and N570, though. N540 meters like a champ.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Bergers and br2 primers should improve things.

I'll be surprised if you see much difference. Try the bullets for sure.... but it's highly unlikely - like win the powerball chance - that CCI BR2 primers will do anything.

I tried BR4 primers in my .223 last year to see if they tightened up my ES/SD values. A buddy of mine and I were grumping that we both see .223 values about double what we see in our larger calibers; he gave me a couple dozen BR4 primers to try in place of my CCI 400s. This was already a sub-half-MOA rifle/ammo combo. Performance all the way out to 1000 was great. We just wanted to see if the benchrest primer mattered.

It.Did.Not.

Our feeling is that the small volume of the .223 case magnifies any inconsistencies or flaws in any component or process. My buddy is a reformed F-class shooter who has been known to cut stick powder kernels to achieve 0.01-grain precision in powder weight and has the scale to make such precision consistent.

If I was you, I'd be looking for a buddy with a different rifle and see what your ammo does in it. Something is going on to cause your issue, and I'm not sure it's all about the ammo. I have never messed with .308 aside from my son's iron-sight M1A National Match, but all three of my centerfire calibers (.223, 6BR, 6.5CM) were .7-MOA performers @100 yards AT WORST through eight different barrels on six different rifles, regardless of what components I used*... and most combinations were .5-MOA or better.

The only time I've run into an issue like yours is with a Rim-X .22. A long-time now-retired friend whose centerfire barrel work was well-respected cut the barrel for me - under protest. He said rimfire chambering is a much more persnickety fiddly aggravating endeavor compared to centerfire, but he did it because of our long relationship. That rifle has never been a consistent performer. It will shoot a bughole group at 50 or a 3/4-inch group at 100 and follow it up with a "pattern" instead of a group. It's sat in the safe for two years, even the chassis and scope have been deployed elsewhere for the time being. At some point, I'll either have the barrel rechambered, get a new barrel entirely, or just sell the thing.

I feel your frustration. Been there. Good luck.
--------
* Caveat: bulk 55gr .223 ammo is 2-4MOA ammo, regardless of platform

 

[ShtrRdy]

I didn't read through the whole thread so please forgive me if this has been done. Have you tried some Federal Gold Metal ammo with the 168 gr SMK and with the 175 gr SMK? The three 308 Win I've had over the years would shoot one of those good.

You're dot target looks pretty good. I don't know why the other target seems more scattered.

As was mentioned, some of the difficulty could be your technique/fundamentals. Personally, I sure had to work at it. I'm a lot better now but still not great.

later ..... this is what I used to learn the Fundementals. This is kinda dated but the basics apply.

Rifles Only Precision Rifle Disk 1: Fundamentals

riflesonly.com

 

[straightshooter1]

Rifle isn’t anything fancy. REM 700, Criterion 24” light varmint, oryx chassis, atlas Apollo brake, Nightforce nx8, TT diamond, acu tac bipod.. Pieced it together over the past year. Next rifle will be better. 25 creed sounds fun.

Groups today grew progressively worse. Heat was a factor. Poi started to rise. Groups opened up. The first group, all the centers in the next two groups, and hitting the dot consistently makes me think I’m shooting ok. I did have to learn to shoot prone all over again. Shot old school bladed position for smallbore. It’s been an adjustment. Today it felt good. Could still benefit from some live coaching.

Bergers and br2 primers should improve things.

Which model of NX8 do you have?

One of the things I found that really helped me tighten up my groups was having a high powered scope on my gun. . . .even for when shooting at just 100 yds.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'll be surprised if you see much difference. Try the bullets for sure.... but it's highly unlikely - like win the powerball chance - that CCI BR2 primers will do anything.

I tried BR4 primers in my .223 last year to see if they tightened up my ES/SD values. A buddy of mine and I were grumping that we both see .223 values about double what we see in our larger calibers; he gave me a couple dozen BR4 primers to try in place of my CCI 400s. This was already a sub-half-MOA rifle/ammo combo. Performance all the way out to 1000 was great. We just wanted to see if the benchrest primer mattered.

It.Did.Not.

I've found that benchrest primers deliver slightly better consistency in muzzle velocity, but likely little to no difference in group size at relatively short ranges. During the pandemic when I had a lot of time on my hands and the need for more primers, I ran some primer tests. One was BR2s vs. 215Ms (because 215Ms were unobtanium - note that I did a separate load for magnum vs. non-), another was weight-sorting BR2s, and the last was BR2s vs CCI200s. In all cases, the differences were small, but there. BR2s slightly beat out 215Ms for the case I tested (300 PRC). Weight-sorting delivered a slightly better SD, as did BR2s vs 200s.

That said, for most reloaders, the difference would get lost in the noise caused by inconsistencies in other parts of their processes.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I've found that benchrest primers deliver slightly better consistency in muzzle velocity, but likely little to no difference in group size at relatively short ranges. During the pandemic when I had a lot of time on my hands and the need for more primers, I ran some primer tests. One was BR2s vs. 215Ms (because 215Ms were unobtanium - note that I did a separate load for magnum vs. non-), another was weight-sorting BR2s, and the last was BR2s vs CCI200s. In all cases, the differences were small, but there. BR2s slightly beat out 215Ms for the case I tested (300 PRC). Weight-sorting delivered a slightly better SD, as did BR2s vs 200s.

That said, for most reloaders, the difference would get lost in the noise caused by inconsistencies in other parts of their processes.

How big were your sample sizes? What differences did you record? Do you feel that the improvement with BR2s was worth the extra cost?

Also, your testing was in big-bore calibers, mine was in .223. So, your large rifle primers were lighting up four times the weight of powder (.300 PRC) compared to my little mouse rounds. I've also done small-sample-size, informal comparison of CCI 400s versus 450s in those same .223 rounds (all other components the same), and the 400s gave slightly better numbers... if it's possible to have "overkill" in priming power, maybe I was there...

 

[Rocketmandb]

How big were your sample sizes?

I ran 50 for each test. All else stayed the same.

What differences did you record?

I'd have to back and find the post I did here on the weight-sorted, but I want to say it was on the order of just over 1 fps. Not much, but then, it was going from like a 6.x fps to a 7.x fps, so the percentage was relatively high. The others were similar. I didn't test weight-sorted BR2s vs the others...

Do you feel that the improvement with BR2s was worth the extra cost?

Cost is relative to the shooter, and, frankly, at that time all costs were about the same (sometimes upwards of $300 per brick). You couldn't find primers easily anywhere and BR2s seemed to be more available than most. I had been using both BR2s and 215Ms, but the latter just disappeared, whereas you could still pay the GunBroker tax and get the BR2s for a while. I bought entirely too many during that time, but I didn't want to be left lacking.

Now? I'd still get BR2s, but that's just me and the fact that I don't want to screw up the load I've got. Regardless, most of my shooting is ELR, where the impact of a 1 fps difference in SDs is meaningful and measurable.

Also, your testing was in big-bore calibers, mine was in .223. So, your large rifle primers were lighting up four times the weight of powder (.300 PRC) compared to my little mouse rounds. I've also done small-sample-size, informal comparison of CCI 400s versus 450s in those same .223 rounds (all other components the same), and the 400s gave slightly better numbers... if it's possible to have "overkill" in priming power, maybe I was there...

As I mentioned, I found the same in the LR primer comparison of standard vs. magnum powders, albeit from different manufacturers. Honestly, though, it sort of makes sense. A reaction that takes place more slowly tends to be more consistent. Magnum powders will ignite the powder more quickly and cause a higher pressure spike as a result. I'm generally finding that I like a slower ignition/lower pressure, which is why I've gravitated to N568/BR2s for my 300 PRC. I get about 100fps less velocity, but it is really consistent and the recoil has a MUCH lower impulse. Much easier to shoot and manage recoil.

 

[Josh Umsted]

I didn't read through the whole thread so please forgive me if this has been done. Have you tried some Federal Gold Metal ammo with the 168 gr SMK and with the 175 gr SMK? The three 308 Win I've had over the years would shoot one of those good.

You're dot target looks pretty good. I don't know why the other target seems more scattered.

As was mentioned, some of the difficulty could be your technique/fundamentals. Personally, I sure had to work at it. I'm a lot better now but still not great.

later ..... this is what I used to learn the Fundementals. This is kinda dated but the basics apply.

Rifles Only Precision Rifle Disk 1: Fundamentals

riflesonly.com

Of course. I’ve learned about all I can from free YouTube, rifle Kraft, modern day sniper and such. Having someone watch me shoot and provide live feedback would be great.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Here’s a link to the series by little crow gunworks on precision handloading for 308 (Start your ladder test from 50,000 psi up to your max of 62-65K for 308. Look for high % case fill (90% - 105%) and high % powder burn (99% -100%)).

Interesting. Had good results with 43gn of Varget and started getting pressure signs. Will definitely work up to max with the new n540.

 

[WeR0206]

Interesting. Had good results with 43gn of Varget and started getting pressure signs. Will definitely work up to max with the new n540.

N540 should work great. I have a brand new 24” criterion light varmint in 308 from NSS that I need to break in but once broken in im going to test 177 smk’s with H4895, N140, and maybe N150

 

[tekmann2377]

A few things.

Less is more for case neck cleaning. I tend to try and leave the carbon from firing inside, similar to what many have mentioned. I don't even bother to remove lube inside the neck (I use imperial wax lube, not liquid, though).

A good chamfer is a must. Use a VLD chamfer too, even for non-VLD bullets. This will prevent damage to jackets, and make seating smoother.

If a rifle struggles to stay "in tune," a more forgiving powder with wider nodes will often be more consistent. Extruded temp-insensitive powders tend to have distinct nodes, and need to be in these nodes to perform well. In comparison, some older extruded powders (IE IMR or the N1xx series VV powders) may have wider nodes and be more forgiving.

Some barrels just aren't great shooters, or are more finicky than others. It is possible your barrel just isn't that great, although less likely because it does generate some good groups from time to time.

Another thing to try is shooting off of bags instead of a bipod. A bipod will be more likely to generate vertical dispersion if inconsistent position, or loading of the bipod, is happening.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Which model of NX8 do you have?

4-32x. Love it. Always full magnification for testing at 100.

 

[Josh Umsted]

A few things.

Less is more for case neck cleaning. I tend to try and leave the carbon from firing inside, similar to what many have mentioned. I don't even bother to remove lube inside the neck (I use imperial wax lube, not liquid, though).

A good chamfer is a must. Use a VLD chamfer too, even for non-VLD bullets. This will prevent damage to jackets, and make seating smoother.

If a rifle struggles to stay "in tune," a more forgiving powder with wider nodes will often be more consistent. Extruded temp-insensitive powders tend to have distinct nodes, and need to be in these nodes to perform well. In comparison, some older extruded powders (IE IMR or the N1xx series VV powders) may have wider nodes and be more forgiving.

Some barrels just aren't great shooters, or are more finicky than others. It is possible your barrel just isn't that great, although less likely because it does generate some good groups from time to time.

Another thing to try is shooting off of bags instead of a bipod. A bipod will be more likely to generate vertical dispersion if inconsistent position, or loading of the bipod, is happening.

True, I shoot a little better off a front rest than bipod. Best groups have been with a front rest off the bench.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Here’s a link to the series by little crow gunworks on precision handloading for 308 (Start your ladder test from 50,000 psi up to your max of 62-65K for 308. Look for high % case fill (90% - 105%) and high % powder burn (99% -100%)).

Wish I’d seen this a year ago. Setting up GRT now, measuring case volume, see what it says.

 

[WeR0206]

Wish I’d seen this a year ago. Setting up GRT now, measuring case volume, see what it says.

Same here! I just discovered it myself thanks to this video series. Pretty awesome its still available for free.

In addition to fired case volume id also make sure to input your avg length for your bullets and input your avg brass length measurement

 

[Josh Umsted]

If this output is correct, and I think it is, 42.4 gn Varget only burned 95% of the powder. 44gn, as pictured, would burn 100% and remain well below max pressure. Predicted MV is 2725, right where I was working on the higher node and ran into pressure signs. Gonna try working the charge upward starting a bit below 44gn and see what happens, then start over with new components when they arrive.

Do you guys do anything to new Lapua brass? I know there are lots of opinions. I’m inclined to just load it and shoot it, use up the sierras and Varget for fire forming 300 new cases.

 

[WeR0206]

View attachment 8719896

If this output is correct, and I think it is, 42.4 gn Varget only burned 95% of the powder. 44gn, as pictured, would burn 100% and remain well below max pressure. Predicted MV is 2725, right where I was working on the higher node and ran into pressure signs. Gonna try working the charge upward starting a bit below 44gn and see what happens, then start over with new components when they arrive.

Do you guys do anything to new Lapua brass. I know there are lots of opinions. I’m inclined to just load it and shoot it, use up the sierras and Varget for fire forming 300 new cases.

For new brass prep: trim (if needed), chamfer/deburr, add some moly dry lube to necks, expander mandrel to normalize necks (if needed), add more dry lube to necks if needed then seat bullets.

 

[straightshooter1]

Wish I’d seen this a year ago. Setting up GRT now, measuring case volume, see what it says.

Just an FYI: When measuring case volume, I've found the best way to get a good measurement is when you've slightly over filled the case and trying to get it level to the case mouth, I use a light source (like a small flashlight) and shine it on the water where I can see whether the water is concave, level or convex. It's very easy to see that with a light source. Then, I take a small piece of paper towel to wick the water down until it's level (I do this while the case is sitting on the scale and the scale has been zeroed with the case on it). Sometimes I wick too much resulting in it being convex, where I put a small drop back on and re-wick to level. It doesn't take much water to change the weight indicated, especially on a good electronic scale. To wick just a small amount of water off, I'll just touch the water with a couple fibers sticking out of the piece of paper towel. Also note, that it's best to do 10 cases, as that give you a much better report of case volume for your lot than doing just 3 to 5.