Consistency, or lack thereof

[WeR0206]

Sounds like maybe something might be up that's not related to charge weight..?

Something seems wonky. I don't own/run a .308, but just by pumping what you've shared about your load into Hogdon's load data site, with 168s and Varget, it doesn't appear ~42gn should be showing pressure (and while some primers are better than others as far as consistency, IDK if different primers really matter much as far as pressure/MV IME, so I wouldn't even factor that in or worry about that as long as they go bang).

View attachment 8723305

When's the last time you pulled out the borescope and looked at your chamber? Remember, Varget means awesome, but it also means a carbon ring you have to stay on top of...

For cross reference here’s sierra’s load data. Looks like they have max for varget at 45gr @ 2,750 fps. I wouldn’t expect him to be getting sticky bolts at 43 grades either but I guess each chamber and barrow is unique. As you said there could be a carbon ring or something.

 

[flogxal]

Yep. Took a break from the sport for a while, but hit the LR Regional last fall, and it's on the list for September this year as well.

That's my home range, but I avoid it on match weekends as they are always using either the 600yds or 1000yds, and I don't know any of the local BR shooters.

 

[memilanuk]

That's my home range, but I avoid it on match weekends as they are always using either the 600yds or 1000yds, and I don't know any of the local BR shooters.

Not a BR shooter (yet).

There were a couple spots open for the LR Regional in September, as of a few days ago.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Yes you’re correct on that but also, If you have variation in case length or bullet length it causes variation in the seating depth in the neck which causes variation in pressures/velocity. More depth = more pressure.

I never realized this connection before playing around with gordons reloading tool and learning the different relationships between all the different inputs and outputs. IMO the scientific fields that would help one best understand reloading and precision shooting would be systems engineer & statistics.

Yup. I was good at stats in college. Had a good teacher, and was good enough at science to at least understand methodology and figure out a computer program. Spent my career in behavioral science.

 

[Maurygold]

Opinions on click-adjustable sizing dies? Looking at Whidden. Hate to spend the money but it would speed up my process. Whidden offers dies with or without bushing for the same price. If I went with a bushing die rather than expander mandrel, that would really refine my process. Wonder if the bushing in the Whidden die can be removed if I don’t like it, or just go with the FL die. Will ask Whidden before ordering.

bushing dies are FL dies. The click adjustable just moves the die up and down for bump. you should get the bushing die. you do not need a mandrel. but if you later choose to use one you buy a smaller bushing and then expand with the mandrel.

I'm guessing you're new or newer to relaoding in which i highly recommend you just use a bushing die no mandrel as it is entirely possible to shoot 5-8 SD without ever touching a mandrel

 

[Josh Umsted]

Sounds like maybe something might be up that's not related to charge weight..?

Something seems wonky. I don't own/run a .308, but just by pumping what you've shared about your load into Hogdon's load data site, with 168s and Varget, it doesn't appear ~42gn should be showing pressure (and while some primers are better than others as far as consistency, IDK if different primers really matter much as far as pressure/MV IME, so I wouldn't even factor that in or worry about that as long as they go bang).

View attachment 8723305

When's the last time you pulled out the borescope and looked at your chamber? Remember, Varget means awesome, but it also means a carbon ring you have to stay on top of...

I used Hodgdon data until learning GRT. It wasn’t in line with reality. They tested with different brass. In hindsight, it was a headspace issue. That was probably before I learned about shoulder bump, and how changes to brass dimensions effect pressure.

The rifle is due for cleaning. Maybe 200 shots down the tube since last cleaning, and a light one at that, using only hoppes #9. I’ve been cleaning pretty religiously with thoro clean/flush. 200 rounds is the most I’ve shot between cleanings. Don’t have a bore scope yet. Need an adjustable sizing die first. My sizing technique has improved, but my Redding die is hard to adjust. An adjustable bushing die will save a bunch extra steps, and with the right bushing, potentially eliminate need for the mandrel. Deprime, Fl size, prime and expand are each separate steps and I don’t like it. One die can do all that, except prime, which I do on the press anyway.

2700 fps seems to be a happy place for the bergers. Sierras liked that velocity, too. They also seem to like 2630ish. 2700 is achievable at about 43.6 grains of Varget if other pressure factors are better controlled. Not too concerned with brass or barrel life.

 

[JerkyFreak]

.308 with Lapua brass use a .336 bushing and your done.

Never saw the need for an adjustable bump die. The die body has a 14TPI thread. 1/32 turn is approximately 2 thou. Seems easy enough to measure the shoulders and adjust any die to get the required 2 thou jump. Then lock it in place. I have a sizing die for every target rifle and a general die for playing around with my hunting rifle.

Haven't annealed my brass either. Still get the required bump within 1 thou without having to adjust my sizing dies. And I challenge anybody to show me results on how a difference of 1 thou shoulder bump screwed their precision.

 

[Josh Umsted]

.308 with Lapua brass use a .336 bushing and your done.

Never saw the need for an adjustable bump die. The die body has a 14TPI thread. 1/32 turn is approximately 2 thou. Seems easy enough to measure the shoulders and adjust any die to get the required 2 thou jump. Then lock it in place. I have a sizing die for every target rifle and a general die for playing around with my hunting rifle.

Haven't annealed my brass either. Still get the required bump within 1 thou without having to adjust my sizing dies. And I challenge anybody to show me results on how a difference of 1 thou shoulder bump screwed their precision.

The lock ring on my die is sticky. Guess I could change it.

My problem early on was with undersized cases. User error.

 

[WeR0206]

.308 with Lapua brass use a .336 bushing and your done.

Never saw the need for an adjustable bump die. The die body has a 14TPI thread. 1/32 turn is approximately 2 thou. Seems easy enough to measure the shoulders and adjust any die to get the required 2 thou jump. Then lock it in place. I have a sizing die for every target rifle and a general die for playing around with my hunting rifle.

Haven't annealed my brass either. Still get the required bump within 1 thou without having to adjust my sizing dies. And I challenge anybody to show me results on how a difference of 1 thou shoulder bump screwed their precision.

Another alternative to the micrometer bump dies (which seem overpriced to me) are shell holder sets that have .001” difference in thickness allowing you to fine tune bump by swapping shell holders out instead of adjusting the die. Redding and Im sure other companies make these sets.

Ive been fine using standard FL dies with a witness mark on top. Without a mark itd be much harder to adjust.

 

[WeR0206]

The lock ring on my die is sticky. Guess I could change it.

My problem early on was with undersized cases. User error.

Everyone (including myself) seems to like the hornady lock rings.

 

[Josh Umsted]

For cross reference here’s sierra’s load data. Looks like they have max for varget at 45gr @ 2,750 fps. I wouldn’t expect him to be getting sticky bolts at 43 grades either but I guess each chamber and barrow is unique. As you said there could be a carbon ring or something.

View attachment 8723311

That’s the thing about published loads. I looked up max charge from 3 different sources and got 3 different answers.

 

[Josh Umsted]

Another alternative to the micrometer bump dies (which seem overpriced to me) are shell holder sets that have .001” difference in thickness allowing you to fine tune bump by swapping shell holders out instead of adjusting the die. Redding and Im sure other companies make these sets.

Ive been fine using standard FL dies with a witness mark on top. Without a mark itd be much harder to adjust.

That’s why I went with the Forster fl bushing die. Hash marks are good enough for me, and a little cheaper.

 

[CK1.0]

I used Hodgdon data until learning GRT. It wasn’t in line with reality. They tested with different brass. In hindsight, it was a headspace issue. That was probably before I learned about shoulder bump, and how changes to brass dimensions effect pressure.

The rifle is due for cleaning. Maybe 200 shots down the tube since last cleaning, and a light one at that, using only hoppes #9. I’ve been cleaning pretty religiously with thoro clean/flush. 200 rounds is the most I’ve shot between cleanings. Don’t have a bore scope yet. Need an adjustable sizing die first. My sizing technique has improved, but my Redding die is hard to adjust. An adjustable bushing die will save a bunch extra steps, and with the right bushing, potentially eliminate need for the mandrel. Deprime, Fl size, prime and expand are each separate steps and I don’t like it. One die can do all that, except prime, which I do on the press anyway.

2700 fps seems to be a happy place for the bergers. Sierras liked that velocity, too. They also seem to like 2630ish. 2700 is achievable at about 43.6 grains of Varget if other pressure factors are better controlled. Not too concerned with brass or barrel life.

If you’ve never looked at your chamber with a borescope, I’d bet you $5 that you have a carbon ring in there (how bad it is, and how much it’s affecting things, is the question, gotta get it out in order to see).

You don’t need a fancy sizing die, a $20 Lee die will make great ammo when used correctly. You do need a borescope though… not for going bananas with, but for knowing what’s going on in there instead of guessing.

 

[memilanuk]

If you’ve never looked at your chamber with a borescope, I’d bet you $5 that you have a carbon ring in there

He's shooting a 308, right?

Carbon rings aren't really a problem for that cartridge (usually).

 

[Josh Umsted]

If you’ve never looked at your chamber with a borescope, I’d bet you $5 that you have a carbon ring in there (how bad it is, and how much it’s affecting things, is the question, gotta get it out in order to see).

You don’t need a fancy sizing die, a $20 Lee die will make great ammo when used correctly. You do need a borescope though… not for going bananas with, but for knowing what’s going on in there instead of guessing.

I know. A bore scope is in my near future. My sizing die would be fine with a new lock ring, and probably the ball expander. The Forster will make life a little easier. And I’ve replaced the two necessary dies in a 3 die set dad bought from a friend. Gonna sell them.

 

[CK1.0]

I know. A bore scope is in my near future. My sizing die would be fine with a new lock ring, and probably the ball expander. The Forster will make life a little easier. And I’ve replaced the two necessary dies in a 3 die set dad bought from a friend. Gonna sell them.

Well, Hornady doesn’t get the best rap around here for most things, but they do make decent die lock-rings.

 

[CK1.0]

He's shooting a 308, right?

Carbon rings aren't really a problem for that cartridge (usually).

I hear ya, but having burned up many jugs of Varget, I would be suspicious without checking and knowing… and a borescope is better than waiting for blown primers or worse…

 

[memilanuk]

I hear ya, but having burned up many jugs of Varget, I would be suspicious without checking and knowing… and a borescope is better than waiting for blown primers or worse…

Having burned up many, many jugs of Varget in 308s from 155s to 200s over the last 20 years or so, it's really not an issue.

Having and using a borescope isn't a terrible idea, but of all the things that might be going on with this guy's rifle, a carbon ring is one of the very last rocks I'd be turning over.

 

[Inline6]

I hear ya, but having burned up many jugs of Varget, I would be suspicious without checking and knowing… and a borescope is better than waiting for blown primers or worse…

Trying my best to follow along with this thread. I was going to ask the same question.

When was the last time this barrel was cleaned. Just reading everything it sounds well over 500rds on it? Maybe I'm off, just scrolling that's what it looks like. If it was cleaned how did you confirm no carbon ring?

 

[CK1.0]

Having burned up many, many jugs of Varget in 308s from 155s to 200s over the last 20 years or so, it's really not an issue.

Having and using a borescope isn't a terrible idea, but of all the things that might be going on with this guy's rifle, a carbon ring is one of the very last rocks I'd be turning over.

Fair enough, you might be right.

But whether first or the last rock to turn over, it's a rock that needs to be turned over.

That said, after thinking about it, and based on what's been said, it seems like f'ed up headspace (as in too much bump) is the more likely cause. With what the OP has shared, as far as him being green when it comes to sizing dies and bump, I'm leaning more that way. Especially since I remembered him having a "dud" (FTF) in one of the vids he posted... and wonky chrono numbers and false pressure signs on the brass would jive with that.

Like a lot of guys, I've shot a lot of f'ing rounds, and "duds", as in bad primers that don't go off, are rare. But bump the shoulders back too much (even by just 1-2 thou too much) and FTFs become frustratingly and annoyingly common (been there, sucks lol).

I think a lot of guys new to reloading don't understand that if one's bump isn't going to be consistent and repeatable, and possibly one might be bumping too much (which is what it sounds like here), it's actually probably better to not even bother bumping the shoulders back at all until you can nail it (and IMHO one needs to own a comparator that indexes off the shoulder datum, and a decent die lock-ring that clamps around the die-body and doesn't shift/move to stick on their sizing die, to nail it).

FWIW/FYI to those that don't know, when setting bump, it's based on the longest measured case(s), and then just running the shorter cases through the same die after it's been set and locked in with a lock-ring (the short ones don't get bumped until they grow long enough to get bumped). Do it right the first time, once, and then you don't have to touch it again for the life of the barrel (in other words, it's not something you have to measure for and adjust every cycle). I mention this because, yeah, I've heard/read of guys measuring each individual case and trying to bump each f'ing one back 2 thou or whatever (hard fail lol), and/or guys just grabbing any random case each cycle and setting their bump off that (works if one's lucky enough to grab one of the longer ones, unlucky and grab a shorter one, and you start getting clicks instead of bangs).

 

[Josh Umsted]

I hear ya, but having burned up many jugs of Varget, I would be suspicious without checking and knowing… and a borescope is better than waiting for blown primers or worse…

Maybe 10# of Varget. This is my second barrel. Won’t know if there’s a carbon ring until I look, but I doubt it. It shot better than expected last time out, four consecutive groups in a ladder test averaged about .30” vertical. Two of those were less than .25”. I don’t see a problem.

 

[JerkyFreak]

If I remember correctly the FTF was from an upside down primer.

If you see the amount of headspace on virgin brass, youll realise that the majority of dies cannot bump the shoulder more than that; even if you jam the die into the shellholder.

Bunping the shoulder too much does not cause FTF unless you've turned the die body shorter, using the wrong die, wrong brass or chamber cut with excessive headspace, i.e. no-go guage chambering.