Anybody have a Cooper Montana Varminter? For $1400, this looks like a really good deal. Personally I've never held a Cooper in my hands, was hoping to get some real world feedback. Sorry for all the questions, at some point I hope to actually provide input instead of taking output!
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
+1....I've seen them in action, to be honest I wasn't that impressed. Hell for $1400 you can set up a pretty sweet Remington.
+1....I've seen them in action, to be honest I wasn't that impressed. Hell for $1400 you can set up a pretty sweet Remington.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
Political issue with Cooper? What the...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
</div></div>
Political issue with Cooper? What the...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
</div></div>
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
Fantastic guns for the money!I sold my 204 Ruger to finance some expensive custom actioned long range rifles but still have two 5 shot groups up on the wall I shot one after the other at 100Y.Both were in the low .3inch size.
Also a friend of mine bought his Cooper at the same time as I,a 243wssm,and when working up a load for him I shot a fair amount of sub half inch groups.
If they made a repeater with 5-10 round detachable mags they would really have something!
Steve
Fantastic guns for the money!I sold my 204 Ruger to finance some expensive custom actioned long range rifles but still have two 5 shot groups up on the wall I shot one after the other at 100Y.Both were in the low .3inch size.
Also a friend of mine bought his Cooper at the same time as I,a 243wssm,and when working up a load for him I shot a fair amount of sub half inch groups.
If they made a repeater with 5-10 round detachable mags they would really have something!
Steve
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
He is a supporter of the Chosen One
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Political issue with Cooper? What the...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
</div></div> </div></div>
He is a supporter of the Chosen One
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Political issue with Cooper? What the...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
They are a good gun for $1400, but for a little more a person could buy a remington action and have a smith put a custom barrel on it and put it in a great stock for similar $ and 9 times out of 10 it will out shoot the cooper.
And that's not even getting into my political issues with them. A quick search on them should reveal that issue.
</div></div> </div></div>
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
</div></div>
Todd, I am considering buying a Cooper LVT in 17 HMR, so I am really interested in hearing about this. Right now, I have a Marlin 917VS that shoots sub-MOA (I figure the gun will do .65 or so- I did 5X5 at .75 recently). I was thinking of moving up to the Cooper to get sub-.5 MOA. If you are telling me that I won't get any improvement in accuracy, I won't bother. It seems to me that they machine their own actions and bed all of their rifles (my Marlin is not bedded), so they should get more accuracy than what I can get at Walmart for $300.
I know they have an accuracy guarantee (3-shot .5 MOA @ 100 yds), and I am impressed that they actually bother to test-fire as many with guarantees don't. I did find it suspect that they write the scope brand and magnification and the ammo on the target, but fail to mention the range.
I have been pricing out a custom gun and with the specs I want, Cooper seems to be the cheaper route. My other option would be to do a Ruger 77/17, drop in a Volquartsen barrel or other some such, and then use the McMillan Varmint Rimfire stock. That is about $1800 right there. Or I could get an Annie and drop it into a McMillan... that is $2000 or so using the factory barrel, which is probably sufficient.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good guns but beware of their deceptive test targets. While they are good shooting guns and good quality. Keep in mind their test targets are shot at something like 27 yards, indoors, with handloads and a 36x scope. They are not in any way representative of how they shoot at distance. Most of them shoot somewhere around 0.5-1.0" at 100 with good factory ammo. I've never seen one replicate it's test target at 100 yards, not even close. If you look close at the test targets they give no indication what distance they are shot at.
</div></div>
Todd, I am considering buying a Cooper LVT in 17 HMR, so I am really interested in hearing about this. Right now, I have a Marlin 917VS that shoots sub-MOA (I figure the gun will do .65 or so- I did 5X5 at .75 recently). I was thinking of moving up to the Cooper to get sub-.5 MOA. If you are telling me that I won't get any improvement in accuracy, I won't bother. It seems to me that they machine their own actions and bed all of their rifles (my Marlin is not bedded), so they should get more accuracy than what I can get at Walmart for $300.
I know they have an accuracy guarantee (3-shot .5 MOA @ 100 yds), and I am impressed that they actually bother to test-fire as many with guarantees don't. I did find it suspect that they write the scope brand and magnification and the ammo on the target, but fail to mention the range.
I have been pricing out a custom gun and with the specs I want, Cooper seems to be the cheaper route. My other option would be to do a Ruger 77/17, drop in a Volquartsen barrel or other some such, and then use the McMillan Varmint Rimfire stock. That is about $1800 right there. Or I could get an Annie and drop it into a McMillan... that is $2000 or so using the factory barrel, which is probably sufficient.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
I haven't shot one of their 17 rifles, but I've seen several of their 22lr rifles that shoot well, however for the 22's they will not shoot as well as some of the better anschutz's etc.
Same with the 77/22 with a VQ barrel, I've seen quite a few 77/17 and 77/22mags modified and most end up .5-1" at 100. I've yet to see one do sub .5" consistently.
Maybe I just find their practice deceptive, they put every spec you can imagine on their test target, day, who shot it, rounds, the load specs, scope, etc. etc. but conveniently leave off the yardage. Then encourage dealers to put the targets up on display with the guns knowing people will assume they are shot at 100 yards.
They are good guns, the quality is there, but frankly if you have a ~ .5 MOA rifle now, in your Marlin, I'd try bedding it, see if it gets better, and if it doesn't I'd still keep it and save your money. You could end up spending a lot of $ and not ending up with anything better, or spending a TON and finding something just a little better. I'm not saying the Cooper isn't better overall quality, it is, their actions are very nice and things are fitted and bedded well, and they use pretty nice wood. I just think if you have a gun that shoots that well now, and it's not bedded maybe try squeaking a bit more with a bedding job and maybe an aftermarket trigger and enjoy the fact that you have a heck of a .17 already and save your $1500.
If you really wanted something that absolutely would be a nail driver I'd go for one of the upper end anschutz rifles, their 17's are scary accurate. So much so that there has been a lot of talk of putting them in their own category in matches instead of letting them shoot with the other rimfires.
I haven't shot one of their 17 rifles, but I've seen several of their 22lr rifles that shoot well, however for the 22's they will not shoot as well as some of the better anschutz's etc.
Same with the 77/22 with a VQ barrel, I've seen quite a few 77/17 and 77/22mags modified and most end up .5-1" at 100. I've yet to see one do sub .5" consistently.
Maybe I just find their practice deceptive, they put every spec you can imagine on their test target, day, who shot it, rounds, the load specs, scope, etc. etc. but conveniently leave off the yardage. Then encourage dealers to put the targets up on display with the guns knowing people will assume they are shot at 100 yards.
They are good guns, the quality is there, but frankly if you have a ~ .5 MOA rifle now, in your Marlin, I'd try bedding it, see if it gets better, and if it doesn't I'd still keep it and save your money. You could end up spending a lot of $ and not ending up with anything better, or spending a TON and finding something just a little better. I'm not saying the Cooper isn't better overall quality, it is, their actions are very nice and things are fitted and bedded well, and they use pretty nice wood. I just think if you have a gun that shoots that well now, and it's not bedded maybe try squeaking a bit more with a bedding job and maybe an aftermarket trigger and enjoy the fact that you have a heck of a .17 already and save your $1500.
If you really wanted something that absolutely would be a nail driver I'd go for one of the upper end anschutz rifles, their 17's are scary accurate. So much so that there has been a lot of talk of putting them in their own category in matches instead of letting them shoot with the other rimfires.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you really wanted something that absolutely would be a nail driver I'd go for one of the upper end anschutz rifles, their 17's are scary accurate. So much so that there has been a lot of talk of putting them in their own category in matches instead of letting them shoot with the other rimfires.
</div></div>
That's for all 17's, not just Annie's. I don't think my Marlin is really that unusual. I think most shoot in the .5 - 1 MOA range. These are not 22LR's, so the accuracy is better. It is not making an apples-to-apples comparison.
I was looking through my custom options last night.
Option 1: Ruger 77/17 with a Shilen or Volquartsen barrel and McM stock (either Volquartsen Custom or McM Rimfire Magnum Varmint)
Option 2: Anschutz 1717 with McM Rimfire Magnum Varmint stock
The Ruger is the cheaper route and I am thinking potentially better. How are the barrels on the Anschutz rifles? Who makes them? Are they cut or button-rifles?
Thanks for the thoughts. They are greatly appreciated!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you really wanted something that absolutely would be a nail driver I'd go for one of the upper end anschutz rifles, their 17's are scary accurate. So much so that there has been a lot of talk of putting them in their own category in matches instead of letting them shoot with the other rimfires.
</div></div>
That's for all 17's, not just Annie's. I don't think my Marlin is really that unusual. I think most shoot in the .5 - 1 MOA range. These are not 22LR's, so the accuracy is better. It is not making an apples-to-apples comparison.
I was looking through my custom options last night.
Option 1: Ruger 77/17 with a Shilen or Volquartsen barrel and McM stock (either Volquartsen Custom or McM Rimfire Magnum Varmint)
Option 2: Anschutz 1717 with McM Rimfire Magnum Varmint stock
The Ruger is the cheaper route and I am thinking potentially better. How are the barrels on the Anschutz rifles? Who makes them? Are they cut or button-rifles?
Thanks for the thoughts. They are greatly appreciated!
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
Clark custom will build you a custom 77/22 up with their target barrel for about $1000-1100, but they will only guarantee 1" at 100.
Probably your best bet for an aftermarket 77/22 barrel for top quality is Lilja, they are probably the most expensive and most respected rimfire barrel maker. They state on their webpage most of their barrels are staying in the .5-.7 range at 100 yards for .17 on average. Clark also has a very good reputation at a lower price point.
I forget what VQ accuracy guarantee is but I believe it runs around 7/8" at 100 but that's for their built guns, not just their barrels.
I think anschutz makes their own barrels, no idea if they are cut or button.
Clark custom will build you a custom 77/22 up with their target barrel for about $1000-1100, but they will only guarantee 1" at 100.
Probably your best bet for an aftermarket 77/22 barrel for top quality is Lilja, they are probably the most expensive and most respected rimfire barrel maker. They state on their webpage most of their barrels are staying in the .5-.7 range at 100 yards for .17 on average. Clark also has a very good reputation at a lower price point.
I forget what VQ accuracy guarantee is but I believe it runs around 7/8" at 100 but that's for their built guns, not just their barrels.
I think anschutz makes their own barrels, no idea if they are cut or button.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
So if I get a Lilja barrel, I won't need it to be worked by CPC or Nemohunter, will I? They just re-headspace and recrown and Lilja will do all of this with the drop-in, right?
So $400 for the action + $360 for the barrel. Then I add a McMillan stock... that is $800 bedded unless I can have someone else bed it for cheaper? Then we are looking at $500 + $150ish...
So $1,600 for the custom rifle that is marginally better than what I have now. That is a tough choice. I was hoping to get sub-.5 MOA @ 100 yds. According to the Lilja site, I can expect .6 MOA on average. Hmmm...
So if I get a Lilja barrel, I won't need it to be worked by CPC or Nemohunter, will I? They just re-headspace and recrown and Lilja will do all of this with the drop-in, right?
So $400 for the action + $360 for the barrel. Then I add a McMillan stock... that is $800 bedded unless I can have someone else bed it for cheaper? Then we are looking at $500 + $150ish...
So $1,600 for the custom rifle that is marginally better than what I have now. That is a tough choice. I was hoping to get sub-.5 MOA @ 100 yds. According to the Lilja site, I can expect .6 MOA on average. Hmmm...
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
It's always best to verify headspace with go/no-go gauges when you install the barrel even though it's a drop in from a reputable company. They do vary somewhat not so much due to the barrel but due to variations in the action itself.
If you really want to do it right, look into having a smith thread the action/barrel interface, that's by far the weakest link in the 77/22 along with the bolt spacing issue, and rugers notoriously bad stock barrels.
It would not hurt to have the bolt work done to the 77/22 as well. Guys have them both lapped in, and also they tighten the fit between the two bolt halves. CPC does this with the "beyond bolt tightening service" for about $115.
In addition you can add a Jard trigger to the build, about $90 it's the best deal going for a nice trigger on the 77/22. Typically they take a little work to install right, not usually a true drop in.
You won't need the barrel setback or chambered, but CPC I'm sure could verify the headspace for you and adjust it if needed.
It's always best to verify headspace with go/no-go gauges when you install the barrel even though it's a drop in from a reputable company. They do vary somewhat not so much due to the barrel but due to variations in the action itself.
If you really want to do it right, look into having a smith thread the action/barrel interface, that's by far the weakest link in the 77/22 along with the bolt spacing issue, and rugers notoriously bad stock barrels.
It would not hurt to have the bolt work done to the 77/22 as well. Guys have them both lapped in, and also they tighten the fit between the two bolt halves. CPC does this with the "beyond bolt tightening service" for about $115.
In addition you can add a Jard trigger to the build, about $90 it's the best deal going for a nice trigger on the 77/22. Typically they take a little work to install right, not usually a true drop in.
You won't need the barrel setback or chambered, but CPC I'm sure could verify the headspace for you and adjust it if needed.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
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Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
Yeah their scope mount options leave something to be desired for sure, even for the price that's probably their biggest weakness. The triggers are quite good for a "factory" rifle, but not up to benchrest or serious aftermarket standards. But in all reality you have to expect some shortcomings for a $1400 rifle, it's not a $3500 custom build. The 60 degree bolt lift is a wonderful thing as well.
Not to be too confrontational it's obviously a good shooting rifle, and I'd say this to anyone with any gun... you can call it a proven 1/3 MOA rifle if you want, but show me 5 groups of 5 that average less than .33 and we'll talk, two groups with one having a fowler shot pushing the group to 1" doesn't prove a rifle to me, or even clean the snipers hide 1/2" dot target, that should be candy for a 1/3 MOA rifle.
Coopers are good guns, you can spend $1400 worse ways. To their credit they are one of the few builders left that produce very accurate guns still using very nice wood. It's not my choice for a precision gun for many reasons, but kudos to them for bucking the trend and doing it well. But at $1400-1500 you can get into good stock like the HS precision or B&C light tactical for $250, a 700 donor action that has been trued/blueprinted for probably $600-700, and a custom barrel for another $500-600, add to that a aftermarket trigger for $150-250. It may not have the fit and feel of the cooper action (which is nicely done) but it will shoot just as well if not better if done by a good smith for pretty much the same money and allows the option of a detachable mag if the user so desires, and better scope mount options.
I probably beat this horse too much but I just really dislike their purposely deceptive marketing practices with their test targets. No one would take their test targets seriously if they knew they were shot indoors at under 30 yards and that's exactly the reason they leave that tiny tidbit of info off the otherwise data packed test target.
Yeah their scope mount options leave something to be desired for sure, even for the price that's probably their biggest weakness. The triggers are quite good for a "factory" rifle, but not up to benchrest or serious aftermarket standards. But in all reality you have to expect some shortcomings for a $1400 rifle, it's not a $3500 custom build. The 60 degree bolt lift is a wonderful thing as well.
Not to be too confrontational it's obviously a good shooting rifle, and I'd say this to anyone with any gun... you can call it a proven 1/3 MOA rifle if you want, but show me 5 groups of 5 that average less than .33 and we'll talk, two groups with one having a fowler shot pushing the group to 1" doesn't prove a rifle to me, or even clean the snipers hide 1/2" dot target, that should be candy for a 1/3 MOA rifle.
Coopers are good guns, you can spend $1400 worse ways. To their credit they are one of the few builders left that produce very accurate guns still using very nice wood. It's not my choice for a precision gun for many reasons, but kudos to them for bucking the trend and doing it well. But at $1400-1500 you can get into good stock like the HS precision or B&C light tactical for $250, a 700 donor action that has been trued/blueprinted for probably $600-700, and a custom barrel for another $500-600, add to that a aftermarket trigger for $150-250. It may not have the fit and feel of the cooper action (which is nicely done) but it will shoot just as well if not better if done by a good smith for pretty much the same money and allows the option of a detachable mag if the user so desires, and better scope mount options.
I probably beat this horse too much but I just really dislike their purposely deceptive marketing practices with their test targets. No one would take their test targets seriously if they knew they were shot indoors at under 30 yards and that's exactly the reason they leave that tiny tidbit of info off the otherwise data packed test target.
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
I did visit Cooper several years back-the "range" is exactly 42 yds indoors. Many of their targets packed with individual rifles are 1/8" or better, which I guess translates to their guarantee of 1/2" @ 100. I had a .204 (which I sold to buy another rifle ) that shot 1/3" 5 shot groups easily & I have a Cooper Varminter 220 Swift that always puts all 5 bullets touching (If I do my part) @ 100 yds-rest bags, etc. They are good for their accuracy claim. Of course I have an old Ruger 77 220 Swiftmade in 1970's that cost 1/3 as much (purchased in 2007) & shoots just as well...
I did visit Cooper several years back-the "range" is exactly 42 yds indoors. Many of their targets packed with individual rifles are 1/8" or better, which I guess translates to their guarantee of 1/2" @ 100. I had a .204 (which I sold to buy another rifle ) that shot 1/3" 5 shot groups easily & I have a Cooper Varminter 220 Swift that always puts all 5 bullets touching (If I do my part) @ 100 yds-rest bags, etc. They are good for their accuracy claim. Of course I have an old Ruger 77 220 Swiftmade in 1970's that cost 1/3 as much (purchased in 2007) & shoots just as well...
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I probably beat this horse too much but I just really dislike their purposely deceptive marketing practices with their test targets. No one would take their test targets seriously if they knew they were shot indoors at under 30 yards and that's exactly the reason they leave that tiny tidbit of info off the otherwise data packed test target.</div></div>
They make no such claims ,other than they offer a 3 shot 1/2" 100 yard accuracy guarantee using "match grade"handloaded ammunition with their CF rifles.
They are one of the very very very few OTC companies that actually test fire their rifles off a bench behind a real person with the rifle in it's own stock, not a fixture. The test range is I believe 47 yards but could be wrong You could call Dan Picket at Cooper Firearms and find out for sure.
I have a handfull of Cooper's and while they dont bug hole every group, they will often shoot under MOA.
They are no different from any other make of gun and dont "magically" shoot everything well that's fed into it.You are going to have a find what they like.
<span style="font-weight: bold">M22 in 6.5x284 and it's best 5 shot target to date fired with R22 and 142 gr SMK </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I probably beat this horse too much but I just really dislike their purposely deceptive marketing practices with their test targets. No one would take their test targets seriously if they knew they were shot indoors at under 30 yards and that's exactly the reason they leave that tiny tidbit of info off the otherwise data packed test target.</div></div>
They make no such claims ,other than they offer a 3 shot 1/2" 100 yard accuracy guarantee using "match grade"handloaded ammunition with their CF rifles.
They are one of the very very very few OTC companies that actually test fire their rifles off a bench behind a real person with the rifle in it's own stock, not a fixture. The test range is I believe 47 yards but could be wrong You could call Dan Picket at Cooper Firearms and find out for sure.
I have a handfull of Cooper's and while they dont bug hole every group, they will often shoot under MOA.
<span style="font-weight: bold">M22 in 6.5x284 and it's best 5 shot target to date fired with R22 and 142 gr SMK </span>
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: el gordo2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">M22 in 6.5x284 and it's best 5 shot target to date fired with R22 and 142 gr SMK </span>
</div></div>
Real nice rifle there! I didn't know anyone was making a factory 6.5x284 rifle. If you don't mind me asking, about how much does a rifle like that run?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: el gordo2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">M22 in 6.5x284 and it's best 5 shot target to date fired with R22 and 142 gr SMK </span>
</div></div>
Real nice rifle there! I didn't know anyone was making a factory 6.5x284 rifle. If you don't mind me asking, about how much does a rifle like that run?
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not to be too confrontational it's obviously a good shooting rifle, and I'd say this to anyone with any gun... you can call it a proven 1/3 MOA rifle if you want, but show me 5 groups of 5 that average less than .33 and we'll talk, two groups with one having a fowler shot pushing the group to 1" doesn't prove a rifle to me, or even clean the snipers hide 1/2" dot target, that should be candy for a 1/3 MOA rifle.
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Agreed on the 5X5, disagree on the Sniper's Hide 1/2" dot target. 5 5-shot groups is a good number of groups on the same page. It is pretty possible to have a lucky group or two that is tight. Even a 5-shot group. I have plenty of 5-shot group targets that would be a heck of a lot better if I just stopped at the second group. 5 groups... well... it is difficult to get lucky on 25 consecutive shots.
Now the Sniper's Hide Practical Tactical is a completely different exercise that is intended to test the shooter, not the gun. With groups, it is easy enough to set up your NPA and drill 5 shots without even changing cheek weld... And then measure how far apart the shots are from each other, not necessarily their placement on the target. That is a pretty good test of the rifle, not such a great test of the shooter. If you have a 4-shot magazine, you can drill those shots without a shift in wind, even.
The whole point of the Sniper's Hide Practical Tactical Target is to test the shooter as opposed to the rifle... You are measuring accuracy, not precision. That exercise forces you to change position 14 times... while you can blame the rifle a bit for being off, the exercise is more difficult for the shooter than the rifle. And boy is it difficult and humbling. It is closer to a "real world" experience, and is much better practice than shooting groups.
As to Cooper, I am not upset that they use a vice to hold the gun in place for the groups... that is not deceptive... it tests how good the rifle is without taking into account the shooter, which is what an accuracy guarantee should be. BUT, I do think it is deceptive to say that you guarantee a 3-shot group at 100 yards and then provide a test target shot at a much closer range and not mention how far the group was shot (while including completely extraneous / irrelevant information like the scope magnification). I saw those one-shot groups, and I assumed they were shot at 100 yards.
it is a reasonable point that the test target should come out to the guarantee, but come on, we tend to expect rifles to perform better than the guarantees. So when you present me with a .25" target, I am going to think I got one of the really good ones... sort of a marketing scam. But kudos to them for actually test firing. Many, many custom shops don't even test-fire their guns. Makes you wonder how they back up their guarantee...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not to be too confrontational it's obviously a good shooting rifle, and I'd say this to anyone with any gun... you can call it a proven 1/3 MOA rifle if you want, but show me 5 groups of 5 that average less than .33 and we'll talk, two groups with one having a fowler shot pushing the group to 1" doesn't prove a rifle to me, or even clean the snipers hide 1/2" dot target, that should be candy for a 1/3 MOA rifle.
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Agreed on the 5X5, disagree on the Sniper's Hide 1/2" dot target. 5 5-shot groups is a good number of groups on the same page. It is pretty possible to have a lucky group or two that is tight. Even a 5-shot group. I have plenty of 5-shot group targets that would be a heck of a lot better if I just stopped at the second group. 5 groups... well... it is difficult to get lucky on 25 consecutive shots.
Now the Sniper's Hide Practical Tactical is a completely different exercise that is intended to test the shooter, not the gun. With groups, it is easy enough to set up your NPA and drill 5 shots without even changing cheek weld... And then measure how far apart the shots are from each other, not necessarily their placement on the target. That is a pretty good test of the rifle, not such a great test of the shooter. If you have a 4-shot magazine, you can drill those shots without a shift in wind, even.
The whole point of the Sniper's Hide Practical Tactical Target is to test the shooter as opposed to the rifle... You are measuring accuracy, not precision. That exercise forces you to change position 14 times... while you can blame the rifle a bit for being off, the exercise is more difficult for the shooter than the rifle. And boy is it difficult and humbling. It is closer to a "real world" experience, and is much better practice than shooting groups.
As to Cooper, I am not upset that they use a vice to hold the gun in place for the groups... that is not deceptive... it tests how good the rifle is without taking into account the shooter, which is what an accuracy guarantee should be. BUT, I do think it is deceptive to say that you guarantee a 3-shot group at 100 yards and then provide a test target shot at a much closer range and not mention how far the group was shot (while including completely extraneous / irrelevant information like the scope magnification). I saw those one-shot groups, and I assumed they were shot at 100 yards.
it is a reasonable point that the test target should come out to the guarantee, but come on, we tend to expect rifles to perform better than the guarantees. So when you present me with a .25" target, I am going to think I got one of the really good ones... sort of a marketing scam. But kudos to them for actually test firing. Many, many custom shops don't even test-fire their guns. Makes you wonder how they back up their guarantee...
Re: Cooper Montana Varminter
I can see the point on the sniper's hide target, but if the gun and shooter are consistently sub .3" cleaning the 1/2" hide target should be fairly easy, changing NPA or not, even more so if the 3/4" dot version is used.
You're point on the groups is exactly right, I've fired tons of individual and even 2-3 three shot and five shot groups that were amazingly tight. However, when you start shooting 5 x 5 shot groups it really shows what the rifle can do, and shoot your sighters/fowlers on another target, or on one bull of the printed target pre-marked as so with an additional 5 x 5 shot groups.
In fact I'd go so far as to saying you have to count the cold bore shot of the first group. I've never liked the practice of shooting groups where they throw the first shot or two to either foul the barrel or warm it up. It's BS, when you need the rifle in the field you aren't going to get to shoot a couple fouling shots or warm the barrel up first. The same is true of semi-autos for me. The 10-22/AR guys are notorious for throwing the first hand-racked shot in the dirt then shooting for group, and throwing the last round out of the mag in the dirt as well and that's BS too. Sure it can increase consistency and reduce group size, but in the real world no one uses their gun that way.
Cooper does a lot right, but anyone that thinks they are not using those targets to purposely deceive new customers is off their rocker or is defending their purchase. Anyone that has not done the research or read about it online looks at those targets they post up next to the rifles on display and assumes they are shot at 100 yards just like Carter did. Cooper puts a ton of info on the targets but conveniently leaves the yardage off, it's obviously done to mislead customers. It's the kind of thing I expect to find on used car lots not from a high end rifle company.
I don't care that they take the human factor out if they use a vice for groups (though I have heard they are fired by individuals off bags, though with the test target BS, who's to say they are not locked in a vice with an operator tripping the trigger remotely while sitting on a bag). The only time I have a problem with a company using a machine rest/vice is if they remove the gun from the stock. Because the action/stock interface greatly effects accuracy of the gun.
They may be one of the few companies providing test targets but they are the only one I know of that's deceptive enough to not mark the yardage the target was shot at. They are also the ones that make the biggest deal about making sure they are displayed with the guns at dealerships.
I can see the point on the sniper's hide target, but if the gun and shooter are consistently sub .3" cleaning the 1/2" hide target should be fairly easy, changing NPA or not, even more so if the 3/4" dot version is used.
You're point on the groups is exactly right, I've fired tons of individual and even 2-3 three shot and five shot groups that were amazingly tight. However, when you start shooting 5 x 5 shot groups it really shows what the rifle can do, and shoot your sighters/fowlers on another target, or on one bull of the printed target pre-marked as so with an additional 5 x 5 shot groups.
In fact I'd go so far as to saying you have to count the cold bore shot of the first group. I've never liked the practice of shooting groups where they throw the first shot or two to either foul the barrel or warm it up. It's BS, when you need the rifle in the field you aren't going to get to shoot a couple fouling shots or warm the barrel up first. The same is true of semi-autos for me. The 10-22/AR guys are notorious for throwing the first hand-racked shot in the dirt then shooting for group, and throwing the last round out of the mag in the dirt as well and that's BS too. Sure it can increase consistency and reduce group size, but in the real world no one uses their gun that way.
Cooper does a lot right, but anyone that thinks they are not using those targets to purposely deceive new customers is off their rocker or is defending their purchase. Anyone that has not done the research or read about it online looks at those targets they post up next to the rifles on display and assumes they are shot at 100 yards just like Carter did. Cooper puts a ton of info on the targets but conveniently leaves the yardage off, it's obviously done to mislead customers. It's the kind of thing I expect to find on used car lots not from a high end rifle company.
I don't care that they take the human factor out if they use a vice for groups (though I have heard they are fired by individuals off bags, though with the test target BS, who's to say they are not locked in a vice with an operator tripping the trigger remotely while sitting on a bag). The only time I have a problem with a company using a machine rest/vice is if they remove the gun from the stock. Because the action/stock interface greatly effects accuracy of the gun.
They may be one of the few companies providing test targets but they are the only one I know of that's deceptive enough to not mark the yardage the target was shot at. They are also the ones that make the biggest deal about making sure they are displayed with the guns at dealerships.
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