Copper Removal, No More?

[Wannashootit]

This is a general topic, not specifically related to bolts or semi's, nor reloading, but I'm gonna put it here...

Did anyone else catch the latest episode of Guns 'n Ammo?

They interviewed an instructor from some branch of Special Ops, that said in the last couple years they've come to the opinion that copper removal initially hurts accuracy- and that it takes a few dozen rounds to get it back to where it "was"...

Reasoning was that minor imperfections in the bore, are filled by the copper sloughing off the bullets, and by keeping these filled, accuracy is optimized.

Now, copper isn't removed until accuracy drops off. His example was of an AR-10 platform rifle, which he said had some 7,000 rounds on it (wow...) and that it still shot sub- half minute groups, and would not have the copper removed until groups opened up to over one minute.

Now, the reasoning makes sense to me...and while I notice that it takes a few more than the initial "fouling" shot to get me tight, it's not dozens...I use Wipe-Out exclusively, so copper is removed with each cleaning.

I've never noticed an improvement in groups after a few dozen rounds...

I know this topic has been discussed ad-nauseum here and elsewhere, but this "official" endorsement of leaving copper in the barrel is making me have second thoughts on copper removal.

If you're current or recent former military, I'd also be interested in hearing if this is now current practice everywhere, or just sniper/ DM training...

Also found it interesting that the instructor said they remove the cleaning jag before running the rod back through the barrel and out of the action. Anyone else do this? I never figured a brass jag could hurt the rifling on the way out...

 

[remau308]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

I'm not military, but I have only cleaned my copper out once after about 800 rounds. I did see my accuracy improve a little after doing so, but it was a pretty small change. My usual cleaning process is after 120-180 rounds, and I only clean out the carbon. As long as it's shooting to its potential, I wouldn't do any major scrubbing and cleaning. That's just my process, and I know there are many, many different opinions to cleaning.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

My son says he and his fellow Marines use the Boresnake.

 

[wchartz]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

I have four rifles with match grade barrels; 204,243,260,308. I see very little copper build up in these barrels after hundreds of shots and after a through cleaning it usually takes one or two shots to get the rounds into the group again but those one or two shots are not usually out of the group more than .75 MOA and sometimes not at all. On the other hand I have some production guns that have noticable machine marks in the barrel that collect copper much more readily and will show some loss of accuracy after much less shooting. They are generally 1-1.5 MOA shooters that benefit some from more frequent cleaning but being hunting guns they do not see much use. I clean them more to feel good about it than to gain accuracy. In my opinion the biggest reason to clean a carbon steel barrel is to prevent corrosion. I ruined a good barrel once by shooting it and storing it in an closet in a house that did not have air conditioning during a hot humid summer. It was a 25-06 and of course I did not shoot corrosive ammo in it.

 

[VKC]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

I don't clean copper fouling unless I'm changing bullets. I only clean out the carbon fouling. I do find that my accuracy is better after a few shots down a new or copper stripped barrel, in other words no more first round flyer.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

The theory is sound. When I sent in my R700 to Robert Gradous last year for his "Accurizing Package" (highly recommended) he deep cleaned it and bore-scoped it. In the process he found some rust pitting in the barrel (it was a used gift I swear, haha).

After he worked his magic and function tested it, he told me the groups opened up significantly (about .7-.8moa prior to about 1.5moa after). He said he was afraid he screwed something up but after 10-12 shots it was "one damn hole".

I can confirm this in my experience with deep-cleaning this particular rifle as well. However in cleaning my AR15 and Windrunner I have not seen this significant drop in accuracy. Most for those two rifles is 3-4 shots and then it's back to business.

 

[OFIS]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

Rifle cleaning can become more superstition than science.

I would think a piece of copper accelerating from 0-2700+fps in less than 2 feet would be more destructive than a brass brush...

Never expect a naked bore to do the same thing as one with some use. Anytime after a match barrel gets cleaned, I budget in 10 rounds to not be surprised by changes in POI.

I'm psyched to have a chrome bore LMT barrel on my AR. It gets an oiled boresnake after every 100-200 rounds and I'll worry about deep cleaning when it starts tumbling bullets.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

I thought this concept was pretty common knowledge...

 

[winxp_man]

Re: Copper Removal, No More?

Here is what my barrel looks like from what pics I can take. This is after about 250-300 rounds through it.

This is a stock Remington 700 SPS Tac with 7-800 rounds total through the barrel. My rifle shoots sub one shot after another.

Aron-

 

[Eric B.]

Re: Copper Removal, No More? (Hmmmmm...)

A well lapped barrel from a good custom barrel maker should have virtually no imperfections that would affect accuracy. Ask benchrst shooters about this. They <span style="font-weight: bold">know </span>what it takes to get accuracy.

"Imperfections" in such a actory lapped barrel absolutely <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> come from a build up of copper fouling.

If, after inspecting your barrel with a borescope, you find it has machining marks you can buy a NECCO Fire Lapping Kit,
<span style="font-style: italic">if</span> you are a handloader. You'll be pressure rolling bullets in 3 grades of polishing compound and loading them. Roughly 5 rounds per grit level.

Follow the directions and have patience because you'll be doing a lot of bore cleaning during the lapping procedure.
But you will have a much smoother bore as a result.

 

[jrivera1]

Good information.

I've heard of this on Sniper 101 on you tube.

Do people who shoot solids have to clean less often?

 

[M40_A1]

I used to use nothing but Sweets on patches, and J-B (shouldn't have used that stuff as much as I did) and my .308 shot sub-half minute consistently. Somewhere around the 2000 round mark I got the idea I had to use a brush for some reason, so I did. I cleaned all the fouling out and found my groups had opened up to about a minute and inconsistent. I thought I had ruined my barrel.

Now I'm down to two dry patches after each outing, and only using a couple patches of Wipe-Out every couple hundred rounds. My groups have tightened back up, though the accuracy isn't as good or consistent as it was when "new", probably from the previous over-use of J-B. No more brushing for me! The Marine sniper manual specifies a minimum of twenty strokes with a brush after each use. After my experience, I wonder how accuracy can be maintained to it's fullest with that regimen.

Also found it interesting that the instructor said they remove the cleaning jag before running the rod back through the barrel and out of the action. Anyone else do this? I never figured a brass jag could hurt the rifling on the way out...

The concern is an edge of the jag nicking the edge of the crown on the way back in. I only push the jag out far enough for the patch to come off (I only use push patches now), not all the way out to the rod. I looked, and at least on mine, nothing on my jag past the muzzle contacts the crown on the way in. You'll need to check out your own equipment to see if the jag needs to be removed. It's always a good idea to withdraw the rod nice and easy in either case.

 

[jrivera1]

Good to know

I've been using Mil Comm TW25b and Iosso brushes to do my cleaning..
Don't have much experience with high power rifles only handguns and .308s..


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