Rifle Scopes Current state of MOA and MIL

[LeupoldOptics]

have them define long range scope, they make a lot of them

Which ones are TMOA and which are not, cause all I know is, they are not all TMOA

We tested them and most track SMOA why we made the tool, Leupold is one of the biggest offenders


I have found their CS to be less than helpful, not everyone shoots the most expensive models. Long range needs to be defined

Lowlight,

Sorry, I could have been clearer there: when I mentioned Long Range scopes versus others, I was only talking about the historic labeling of the dials, not their actual adjustment value. Along with my earlier definitive statement, I'll add another:

No Leupold adjustments are designed in 0.250" @ 100yds per click.

Lots of good feedback here!Dthomas3523 has a great point. This is why, partly in response to the awesome growing community of long range shooters, we have already done what I believe Dthomas was suggesting. All of our current production VX-Freedoms, VX-3is, VX-5HDs, and VX-6HDs (Our "hunting" lines) have adjustments labeled as 1/4MOA or 1/4Min.

Hope everyone has a long weekend with some trigger time coming! Happy Fourth!

 

[Lowlight]

I am even more confused,

Historic labeling vs actually adjustments = what again?

If I am understanding this clarification correctly, you are saying, that while Leupold has historically listed their adjustments as Inches the actual adjustments are MOA ?

And that it's not your fault you have historically confused the shooting community by interchanging terms, and as in your own words, even misinformed the public, we should trust you it's 1/4 MOA vs 1/4" even though everything says, 1/4" and in fact has been noted to be SMOA on more than one occasion...

I am even more confused, bottom line, check what you have because it's historically been termed incorrectly.


edited to note the last ones we checked were the LRP model and it was adjusting in SMOA

I don't recall but I believe this MK 4 was SMOA As well, but it was older

 

[joelinux]

I am even more confused,

Historic labeling vs actually adjustments = what again?

If I am understanding this clarification correctly, you are saying, that while Leupold has historically listed their adjustments as Inches the actual adjustments are MOA ?

And that it's not your fault you have historically confused the shooting community by interchanging terms, and as in your own words, even misinformed the public, we should trust you it's 1/4 MOA vs 1/4" even though everything says, 1/4" and in fact has been noted to be SMOA on more than one occasion...

I am even more confused, bottom line, check what you have because it's historically been termed incorrectly.

Sooooooo. Mils?

 

[NVScout]

Sooooooo. Mils?

Seems as if both units could vary as much as 5% ..... I guess to each their own but verify no matter what you are using.

 

[Lowlight]

No,

Only MOA optics have the 5% problem

Mils are Mils and unless they use the wrong number to start with, Military Mil at 6400 vs 6283, there is no debate,

MOA has the problem of SMOA or TMOA

MOA needs to die because they broke it

Mils have not been rounded except with Artillery

Mechanical errors are not unit of adjustment errors, two different things

 

[Lowlight]

Seems as if both units could vary as much as 5% ..... I guess to each their own but verify no matter what you are using.

Fanboy on ignore mode...

 

[NVScout]

Fanboy on ignore mode...

What ever you say frank .... I don’t care either way. Like I said earlier, I’m not swapping 7 setups to mills just cause frank says so. Maybe instead of what the pros use it should be what frank says and then the masses will switch to mill for you?

 

[Lowlight]

Pros use Mils ...

Most have switched, the fact you are not paying attention is your problem

Clearly you have an emotional attachment to MOA, even though the majority of the LR Community is switching away from it.

Maybe try an F Class page or BenchRest Central

 

[NVScout]

Oh my now you hurt my feelings

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

It matters little what you use, if (A) you don't check your gear, (B)believe one system is the be all for every kind of shooting, or (C) think if it sets in the safe long enough it will improve your ability down range. I/we see it all the time people buying what they were told they had to have to tag a target, yet once they pull the trigger the bullet hole/splash can't be made to lie.

 

[joelinux]

It matters little what you use, if (A) you don't check your gear, (B)believe one system is the be all for every kind of shooting, or (C) think if it sets in the safe long enough it will improve your ability down range. I/we see it all the time people buying what they were told they had to have to tag a target, yet once they pull the trigger the bullet hole/splash can't be made to lie.

Oh yeah? Explain hi-point then.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Oh yeah? Explain hi-point then.

To a gang-banger or safe queen owner,...LOL

 

[Lowlight]

Lames ass twisted logic

You are talking to a guy with more access to gear than the next 10 people reading this, if not more

I see 100s of students a year so the gear I see failing matters, as well as their struggles with software.

I attend and host competitions, so I see what works there too

I am not some new guy trying to sell my point, the sales have already made by the sheer lack of MOA shooters we see in class and in competitions

If you are don't see it, it's because you are too busy playing with yourself

Even in AK where there is more MOA shooter than the lower 48 has less and less every class. We had a class this weekend, not a single MOA shooter. It's all mils, just from a communication standpoint if you are not shooting mils you are falling behind

 

[joelinux]

Lames ass twisted logic

You are talking to a guy with more access to gear than the next 10 people reading this, if not more

I see 100s of students a year so the gear I see failing matters, as well as their struggles with software.

I attend and host competitions, so I see what works there too

I am not some new guy trying to sell my point, the sales have already made by the sheer lack of MOA shooters we see in class and in competitions

If you are don't see it, it's because you are too busy playing with yourself

Even in AK where there is more MOA shooter than the lower 48 has less and less every class. We had a class this weekend, not a single MOA shooter. It's all mils, just from a communication standpoint if you are not shooting mils you are falling behind

I'm going to invent my own system: angle of moon. Each unit is the angle the moon is from the horizon at any given second, so the whole number system is shifting constantly, but everyone in the same area will get the same callouts.

 

[Lowlight]

U.O.F.

Already designed a new one,

Units of Frank

 

[joelinux]

U.O.F.

Already designed a new one,

Units of Frank

Right. I don't like that one. So I'm making a competing one.

With hookers.

And blackjack.

On second thought, forget the system and the blackjack.

 

[Lowlight]

You had me at Hookers

 

[NVScout]

U.O.F.

Already designed a new one,

Units of Frank

Sign me up ! The emotion distress of MOA is killing me !!!

 

[notorious]

I prefer the term Frank Units.

F.U. for short.

 

[Bradu]

What ever you say frank .... I don’t care either way. Like I said earlier, I’m not swapping 7 setups to mills just cause frank says so. Maybe instead of what the pros use it should be what frank says and then the masses will switch to mill for you?

Don't forget 308 is no longer popular and the 260 is extinct according to some ?

 

[joelinux]

Don't forget 308 is no longer popular and the 260 is extinct according to some ?

But I heard the .224 Valkrye is going to make up for it...

 

[VP47PPC]

This is sage advice, if your plan is to shoot matches, you will eventually get pissed being the only MOA guy in the squad.. This is a fact and I’m not backing down?

Been shooting matches going on two years. Still using MOA and after Marine DI's and Navy flight instructors you don't much let any piddly shit bug you. That being said at matches MIL's is the standard language and its easy enough to use.

 

[VP47PPC]

I have always used moa, but my last scope purchase was mil because I got tired of being the outcast, and speaking a different language at matches.

Yep MIL's is the language of PRS.

 

[Bradu]

But I heard the .224 Valkrye is going to make up for it...

I was disappointed that the valkyrie didn't win KO2M this year

 

[Huskydriver]

Don't forget 308 is no longer popular and the 260 is extinct according to some ?

What's a 260? Is this a new creedmoor offering?

 

[NVScout]

Been shooting matches going on two years. Still using MOA and after Marine DI's and Navy flight instructors you don't much let any piddly shit bug you. That being said at matches MIL's is the standard language and its easy enough to use.

I 100% agree. For that game mils are the way , I’m still not sure why though ? I mean initially when it was a fairly split field who pushed mils and why? Faster adjustment ? Base 10 ? When it’s a mostly known distance game why does it matter when they both accomplish the same thing ? I still don’t get franks main argument about the SMOA vs TMOA, he tested a couple Leupold that the units were off and because that you should use mils? What if athlons budget scopes units were off would you say mils are wrecked and everyone needs to switch to moa? I guess if you buy a lower tiered optic or outdated optic then I guess you should worry. I am running NXS’s , NX8, Mark 5 and Razor gen 2’s and a VX6 that are TMOA all around, the only thing that has remotely tempted me to switch are the easier wind holds and yes the language. Not trying to argue any point over the other as I usually just scroll along but I really want to know why choose mils ?

 

[seansmd]

I 100% agree. For that game mils are the way , I’m still not sure why though ? I mean initially when it was a fairly split field who pushed mils and why? Faster adjustment ? Base 10 ? When it’s a mostly known distance game why does it matter when they both accomplish the same thing ? I still don’t get franks main argument about the SMOA vs TMOA, he tested a couple Leupold that the units were off and because that you should use mils? What if athlons budget scopes units were off would you say mils are wrecked and everyone needs to switch to moa? I guess if you buy a lower tiered optic or outdated optic then I guess you should worry. I am running NXS’s , NX8, Mark 5 and Razor gen 2’s and a VX6 that are TMOA all around, the only thing that has remotely tempted me to switch are the easier wind holds and yes the language. Not trying to argue any point over the other as I usually just scroll along but I really want to know why choose mils ?

I think you are missing the point it is the fact that moa,smoa, and iphy are all bastards of moa and for years interchangeable in how they were used and communicated. This has nothing to do with the mechanical error all scopes have at various levels based on their price point.

 

[sako17]

i could see 1/8MOA adjustments being idea for benchrest or F-class use. primary focus being Long range shooting and hunting, extended long range plinking (up to 2000 yds) and practical competition. in those cases, it may also be fine too. But ultimately it comes down to personal preference. This is one of those times were there isn't any wrong answers, just whatever works for you.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I 100% agree. For that game mils are the way , I’m still not sure why though ? I mean initially when it was a fairly split field who pushed mils and why? Faster adjustment ? Base 10 ? When it’s a mostly known distance game why does it matter when they both accomplish the same thing ? I still don’t get franks main argument about the SMOA vs TMOA, he tested a couple Leupold that the units were off and because that you should use mils? What if athlons budget scopes units were off would you say mils are wrecked and everyone needs to switch to moa? I guess if you buy a lower tiered optic or outdated optic then I guess you should worry. I am running NXS’s , NX8, Mark 5 and Razor gen 2’s and a VX6 that are TMOA all around, the only thing that has remotely tempted me to switch are the easier wind holds and yes the language. Not trying to argue any point over the other as I usually just scroll along but I really want to know why choose mils ?

I don’t get why you can’t get it?

The reason frank has an issue is because they are or have been labeling moa differently. That a consumer may not realize what they are getting with moa. They may be getting smoa or tmoa. So, they have to do a tracking test and then figure out:

A: what *should* it be tacking with
B: is it tracking to what it *should* be tracking to

You have to answer at least two questions and you can’t just set up a tall target test with true moa at times.

With mils......it hasn’t been bastardized. Hell even leupold confirmed earlier they tried to make moa “easier” and fucked it all up.

With mils, you just set up a tall target test at 100yd, 100m, or whether you want with the proper linear measurements mark. You perform the tracking test and it’s either tracking or it ain’t. You don’t have to figure out “well, is it not tracking properly, or is it in smoa when I thought it was in tmoa??”

Also, casual shooters are too far fucked with moa. Most think it’s 1/4” and 1” at 100, .5 and 2” at 200, etc etc.

It would take years if re-education for the entire shooting community (not just LR) to unfuck this.

With mils, either a shooter doesn’t know it at all, or they know a mil is a mil is a mil (however, people are starting to bastardize mils a bit when they say “mils are metric”).

If this explanation doesn’t help you on why frank and many others are over moa as a whole, you either won’t ever get it, or you’re just playing dumb.

As far as why the LR community went to mils, it’s basically for the base 10. It’s “easier” for most people to work with 11.4mil than 38moa.

Things change. It’s just the way it is. Moa is dead/dying. So is the .308. In another 20yrs or less, mils will be damn near all that’s left and 6.5cm will be the “new” .308.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

As long as there are FNG's, gun rags, games an gamers this subject/debate will never die. Even if twice the Hide membership were PRS shooters, an Mil & 6.5 was all that was used, it still would be a drop in the bucket of all rifle shooting venues. Blinders are being worn by many.

 

[NVScout]

Very well put frank ! That’s a lot better than moa is broken , sucks and should die. Why not have it pinned ?https://gundigest.com/tactical/mils-vs-moa-which-is-the-best-long-range-langue

 

[seansmd]

I don’t get why you can’t get it?

The reason frank has an issue is because they are or have been labeling moa differently. That a consumer may not realize what they are getting with moa. They may be getting smoa or tmoa. So, they have to do a tracking test and then figure out:

A: what *should* it be tacking with
B: is it tracking to what it *should* be tracking to

You have to answer at least two questions and you can’t just set up a tall target test with true moa at times.

With mils......it hasn’t been bastardized. Hell even leupold confirmed earlier they tried to make moa “easier” and fucked it all up.

With mils, you just set up a tall target test at 100yd, 100m, or whether you want with the proper linear measurements mark. You perform the tracking test and it’s either tracking or it ain’t. You don’t have to figure out “well, is it not tracking properly, or is it in smoa when I thought it was in tmoa??”

Also, casual shooters are too far fucked with moa. Most think it’s 1/4” and 1” at 100, .5 and 2” at 200, etc etc.

It would take years if re-education for the entire shooting community (not just LR) to unfuck this.

With mils, either a shooter doesn’t know it at all, or they know a mil is a mil is a mil (however, people are starting to bastardize mils a bit when they say “mils are metric”).

If this explanation doesn’t help you on why frank and many others are over moa as a whole, you either won’t ever get it, or you’re just playing dumb.

As far as why the LR community went to mils, it’s basically for the base 10. It’s “easier” for most people to work with 11.4mil than 38moa.

Things change. It’s just the way it is. Moa is dead/dying. So is the .308. In another 20yrs or less, mils will be damn near all that’s left and 6.5cm will be the “new” .308.

/\/\/\ this!

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I started MOA and this is my second SFP scope in MOA...I'm an MOA user and I'm shooting sub MOA out to quite a ways now. I do not compete - I'm a long range plinker currently developing my first hand loads. This is for perspective.

You need to read what Frank has posted about 11 more time until you get it - 99% of the Pro's use MILs. PRS and all of the wind calls and such will be transmitted via MILs. The fct that MILs are base 10 is probably the best reason MOA will never catch up.

I have checked my scope(s) in MOA and 1 MOA = 1.04" at 100 yards, 2.08 @200 etc. and tracks it perfectly up and down the ladder. People who round MOA of to 1" at 100 yards/2"@200 are probably not folks I'd want to learn from or emulate.

Once I get this figured out (and I will by the end of my second year) I'll be switching to MILs. Not that MOA is not working for me (because it is) as I'm hammering shit sub MOA consistently. If I were a beginner again today, knowing what I know now, I'd be buying and using MIL.

VooDoo

 

[seansmd]

I started MOA and this is my second SFP scope in MOA...I'm an MOA user and I'm shooting sub MOA out to quite a ways now. I do not compete - I'm a long range plinker currently developing my first hand loads. This is for perspective.

You need to read what Frank has posted about 11 more time until you get it - 99% of the Pro's use MILs. PRS and all of the wind calls and such will be transmitted via MILs. The fct that MILs are base 10 is probably the best reason MOA will never catch up.

I have checked my scope(s) in MOA and 1 MOA = 1.04" at 100 yards, 2.08 @200 etc. and tracks it perfectly up and down the ladder. People who round MOA of to 1" at 100 yards/2"@200 are probably not folks I'd want to learn from or emulate.

Once I get this figured out (and I will by the end of my second year) I'll be switching to MILs. Not that MOA is not working for me (because it is) as I'm hammering shit sub MOA consistently. If I were a beginner again today, knowing what I know now, I'd be buying and using MIL.

VooDoo

Spot on, I read Cleckners book and he pretty much pushed me to moa, I bought and learned on moa. Listening and learning here, and speaking a different language from all the other folks at the range and who I shoot with convinced me to change. Like you I tall target tested, verified the Vortex Viper PST gen 2 was true moa(learned here to check and how), and worked my skills. I tried converting all the wind hold based on the mph gun discussion and nothing was as simple as mrad. I bought the exact same scope in mrad for the RPR. Sold the moa in the PX, and on my new build stuck with mrad. Shot my first match everyone was talking mil, drops in mil, wing calls in mil. My gun is a 6mph wind hold gun, and the holds are super simple once I know the full value wind. 12 mph full value wind at 1000 yards 2 mil hold, 9mph at 500 yards would be 0.75 mil round up or down on wind confidence.

 

[sako17]

All my scopes are MOA but MILs would work just as well. We measure in metres here but rangefinders and ballistic apps can handle all combinations of yards/metres and MOA/MILS.

 

[Tokay444]

U.O.F.

Already designed a new one,

Units of Frank

I have a feeling that "Angle of the Dangle" comes into play with this one at some point.

 

[308pirate]

Things change. It’s just the way it is. Moa is dead/dying. So is the .308. In another 20yrs or less, mils will be damn near all that’s left and 6.5cm will be the “new” .308.

That is true in the tiny little corner of the vast shooting world, aka snipershide and PRS competition.

You vastly overestimate the impact this tiny (and I do mean tiny) little subculture has on the shooting world at large.

 

[Clearlight]

Whatever to which unit of measure, as long as we do due diligence and check tracking and
verify. A few times a month I find my self calling misses using an MRAD reticle in a spotter,
for a student using a (tall target tested) MOA optic: doing the math in my head is apparently
useful in avoiding the onset of Alzheimer’s lol rolleyes etcetc.....

 

[seansmd]

Epic troll by the OP, every thread same outcome.....

 

[joelinux]

That's the thing...it wasn't meant to be a troll....I just wanted to find out which was more popular so I wouldn't be the weirdo at the range.

Other people have morphed it into something else...

 

[Luvman]

I just wanted to find out which was more popular so I wouldn't be the weirdo at the range.

Sometimes we just are what we are. Just sayin

 

[bschneiderheinze]

They both suck moa and mil are on the way out you need the MOIL. Turrets are marked in moa increments to not confuse the simple minded. Adjustment is mil for quicker easier adjustments. No recticle because your probably not going to hit shit anyway.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

That is true in the tiny little corner of the vast shooting world, aka snipershide and PRS competition.

You vastly overestimate the impact this tiny (and I do mean tiny) little subculture has on the shooting world at large.

Tiny PRS world. It’s the fastest growing shooting sport in the US and other Continents. What about ELR, NRL 22 and even 3 gun. The only place MOA is relavant and useable is benchrest and some hunting scopes (mine are mil) You show your ignorance yet again.

 

[seansmd]

That's the thing...it wasn't meant to be a troll....I just wanted to find out which was more popular so I wouldn't be the weirdo at the range.

Other people have morphed it into something else...

So you have said in every thread you have created a dumpster fire in, you are a troll, there is a 12 step program for trolls.

 

[Fig]

 

[Bradu]

Tiny PRS world. It’s the fastest growing shooting sport in the US and other Continents. What about ELR, NRL 22 and even 3 gun. The only place MOA is relavant and useable is benchrest and some hunting scopes (mine are mil) You show your ignorance yet again.

How many people are shooting prs?

 

[Fig]

How many people are shooting prs?

Everyone who wants to know who can shoot?

More than a thousand between national and local I think the last email said. I may have deleted it. Not looking...

It doesn’t have to be “PRS”. There are way more people shooting local, “tactical steel”, and to me the move/shoot, outlaw rules are what sets it far apart from anything else. PRS has is a brand and a league, but it’s way bigger than that.

 

[Steel head]

I concur!

 

[Bradu]

Everyone who wants to know who can shoot?

More than a thousand between national and local I think the last email said. I may have deleted it. Not looking...

It doesn’t have to be “PRS”. There are way more people shooting local, “tactical steel”, and to me the move/shoot, outlaw rules are what sets it far apart from anything else. PRS has is a brand and a league, but it’s way bigger than that.

All I asked was how many people shoot prs. I was curious since he made a statement about how big it is. You can save your little speech for someone else lol

 

[Long Range 338]

Tiny PRS world. It’s the fastest growing shooting sport in the US and other Continents. What about ELR, NRL 22 and even 3 gun. The only place MOA is relavant and useable is benchrest and some hunting scopes (mine are mil) You show your ignorance yet again.

I've no dog in this hunt but you are completely discounting the hunting community. They have been using the 1/4" @ 100 yards since the advent of telescopic sights....