Rifle Scopes Current state of MOA and MIL

[Diver160651]

Frank has invited more than a few to just show up an shoot. There were many many times older members have done the same. As reserved as I am, I even went to a place for a scope test to eyeball a guy over a uniform pissing contest we got into, an met people who are very, very, good friends today. It's a smaller world than most know, as most forums here, tattle as to what people are really here for.

I think there still are a bunch of us who do meet and end up shooting together... Be it Franks match, another match or wherever.

Speaking of that, we are putting on a 1 day field style Team UKD match in November. You can fly out and camp on site or get a hotel 15 minutes away with minimal time off work and low entry fee. It is sure to be ultra low key and very small. Come out and shoot, I'd try though to bring the same unit of measure as your buddy.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-day-2-person-team-match-field-style.6948510/

Funny thing is, we can fill our PRS matches up, but this one seems to get less interest.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I think there still are a bunch of us who do meet and end up shooting together... Be it Franks match, another match or wherever.

Yep, met many a hide member over the years at all kinds of shoot's. Most will never say a word about the Hide unless it's a pointed question, or some stupid thread is being talked about. Meet a guy at the local range who had been on the hide for years. He started asking questions an wanted to get into it. So I taught him all I could at the local, legally but we had to wait until odd hrs to teach him the finer points, illegally. Taught him reloading an tips, tested his ammo then sent him to his first 600-1K yd match to a be under the wing of a Bud the first time. He came in third which wasn't shabby for a stock rack gun, an scope. He quickly learned reality vs Tacticool,...

All this reminds me of the old saying.

Easy to B/S the Fans, but you'll never B/S a player,...

 

[seansmd]

I don’t understand the argument “I use mills so I can speak the same language at matches”. I know it isn’t very popular here in the U.S, but a lot of people speak more than one language. I’m an MOA guy and if someone gives me a call in Mils I don’t care, I can do simple math in my head. 1 mil = 3.44 milrad, that conversion is not 3-dimensional calculus or quantum physics by any means.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, I travel the world for business and it can be exhausting constantly needing to make translations either myself or from others. It also introduces error when I would prefer to concentrating on making the shot. The opposite can be true if your environment is mostly MOA and you are the MIL guy it can be equally frustrating and error prone. I changed to MIL so that I am speaking the native language of the environment I mostly play in.

The simplicity of the math, the wind calls, the wind milling are all added benefits of MIL for me. All can be done, and have been done with MOA, IPHY, SMOA.

 

[Diver160651]

So I taught him all I could at the local, legally

off- topic: Speaking of that, I wonder if any discussions on the Hide could be considered an ITAR violation

 

[seansmd]

off- topic: Speaking of that, I wonder if any discussions on the Hide could be considered an ITAR violation

Interesting, I would imagine paid training and technique would be, free speech at a virtual pub I would not think so. If folks are sharing proprietary specifications not publicly available would raise eyebrows.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

off- topic: Speaking of that, I wonder if any discussions on the Hide could be considered an ITAR violation

Not really, the net is full of free information, besides ITAR is just a made up B/S law. Why, when uncle pays people to train it's enemys that just yesterday you were fighting against, an you watch them freely get all the good shit US citizens can't have. Who are they trying to B/S with that law. If any law does not apply to everyone, it apply to no one, because there is not such thing as a selective per the COTUS an most Americans,...which is what/who we swore an oath to.

 

[bourbonbent]

This whole thing has become hilarious.

I’m still using a MIL/MOA scope.

I firmly believe the only thing that matters is getting the hits on target, where you want them. No one will ever convince me otherwise. How you get there is up to you.

In the time some folks have taken to berate and badger, y’all could have done some dry firing. Shooting even. Discuss the details and theories, use arguments based in reality, validity, and experience. The rest is useless noise. Opinion means less than nothing if it’s incorrect and presented as gospel.

@Lowlight has more time on a trigger and experience than most in this thread put together, along with a good handful of other posters that also have a mountain of experience and verifiable knowledge. Trying to win an argument on the Internet is pointless, it’s far better to exchange ideas, read, process, learn, question, and have calm, adult conversation. I think we can all agree that the end goal is to be able to put the bullets where you want them every time, everything else should be the pursuit of getting there.

Start by learning from the resources available to you. There aren’t many sites like this where you can still talk to industry professionals and have answers given. Places like barfcom and archery talk have driven away the pros. Let’s not do it here as well, too many have already left the forums and that is to our detriment. Some of the most experienced, knowledgeable, and capable shooters and gunsmiths I’ve ever met won’t bother with the internet because of shit like this.

I hope y’all have a good one, I have work to do today. Thank you Frank and others who have posted useful information I’ve learned stuff from, in this thread and over the years.

 

[Long Range 338]

This whole thing has become hilarious.

I’m still using a MIL/MOA scope.

I firmly believe the only thing that matters is getting the hits on target, where you want them. No one will ever convince me otherwise. How you get there is up to you.

In the time some folks have taken to berate and badger, y’all could have done some dry firing. Shooting even. Discuss the details and theories, use arguments based in reality, validity, and experience. The rest is useless noise. Opinion means less than nothing if it’s incorrect and presented as gospel.

@Lowlight has more time on a trigger and experience than most in this thread put together, along with a good handful of other posters that also have a mountain of experience and verifiable knowledge. Trying to win an argument on the Internet is pointless, it’s far better to exchange ideas, read, process, learn, question, and have calm, adult conversation. I think we can all agree that the end goal is to be able to put the bullets where you want them every time, everything else should be the pursuit of getting there.

Start by learning from the resources available to you. There aren’t many sites like this where you can still talk to industry professionals and have answers given. Places like barfcom and archery talk have driven away the pros. Let’s not do it here as well, too many have already left the forums and that is to our detriment. Some of the most experienced, knowledgeable, and capable shooters and gunsmiths I’ve ever met won’t bother with the internet because of shit like this.

I hope y’all have a good one, I have work to do today. Thank you Frank and others who have posted useful information I’ve learned stuff from, in this thread and over the years.

I've got an old SWFA 10x fixed that is MOA/MIL and ordered a turret wrap that is labeled in mils (I rounded off at 7.0 MOA=2 Mil) and also added a row of yardage to the turret as well. This is on an old 308 gun that I use for practice and prairie dogs. It works incredibly well for what it is and fast also. I don't do any shooting beyond 1k and rarely beyond with 800 so it works well enough.

 

[garandman]

I got to pg 2 of 6.

I bailed.

 

[Lowlight]

if you spend all your time playing with yourself it doesn't matter the toy, you set the rules and control the game.

It's about ease, efficiency, and communication. Those who rarely venture past their own nose will never get it, so everything they use works great for them. But the picture is much bigger than one guy with his rifle, or even 7 of them, it's about new shooter too, about teaching people who want to enter the sport with a real foundation.

Mils work better, it's easier for wind, it's married to BC here, it's a smaller number for elevation, it not confused with IPHY. There is no need or desire to talk about the linear values between the angle. It's a much easier lesson to learn.

There is no way in hell, frozen or otherwise, fractions are easier than base 10. It's hard to beat a sliding decimal point.

We know money, 10 pennies equal a dime, end of the story, its no more complicated than that. The fact they both have a linear value is meaningless to shooting. If guys want to be 1 MOA is finer than .3 Mils, let them, the difference is less than a bullet width.

The only place MOA has any real value is F Class, Palma, and Benchrest, but even in BR it's debatable and pretty much unnecessary except in talking group size. Palma and F Class are not gaining market share, they are losing it. Sure they are bigger overall and will take time to die, but unless they morph, die they will and take the MOA with them.

I speak all three languages and routinely see where the struggles and mistakes are.

We have so few MOA Shooters anymore we have to brand them with a blue scarlet letter to identify them.

We are designed for base 10, which is why we rock 10 fingers and toes

 

[308pirate]

This world is not the main point of entry for new rifle shooters. Not even close, it's fucking minuscule.

 

[Lowlight]

you'd be surprised where the focus is,

I have seen a big growth in new shooters, both here and on the line.

 

[Spblademaker]

The most useful post was #2.

 

[Bradu]

You guys need to do a better job convincing people, I haven't see any good moa deals in the exchange ?

 

[seansmd]

This world is not the main point of entry for new rifle shooters. Not even close, it's fucking minuscule.

Many new shooters have never hunted, are moving in from gas guns

you'd be surprised where the focus is,

I have seen a big growth in new shooters, both here and on the line.

Many of us do not come from a hunting background, we come form pistol or gas gun, or new to guns all together. We are malleable and willing to learn, given solid advice that is logical, simple, and avoids much of the confusion in learning will trump doing something because that is the way it has been done. I live in tech, where innovation and new moth balls older technology, ideas, and dogma.

 

[Long Range 338]

if you spend all your time playing with yourself it doesn't matter the toy, you set the rules and control the game.

I got off on the wrong tangent with the start of this sentence... It makes more sense to say "playing by yourself". I typically reserve "playing with myself" for something completely different.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

This world is not the main point of entry for new rifle shooters. Not even close, it's fucking minuscule.

This guy won’t agree with anything even from a guy that’s a huge part of the shooting world and has contacts all over the industry. Frank doesn’t know what he’s talking about buttpirate I mean 308pirate is always correct

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I don't disagree but I think a lot of the new the prs type shooters and people banging steel mentioned earlier aren't really any better even with their mil scopes. Ever been to the range with a newer shooter with his mil based hst or pst that went that route because of an article or Facebook discussion? I'm going to say that they fall into the same category as the hunters. The windage on the fly formula discussed often in these threads is another example, how many people actually understand or use it? I bet it's not nearly as many as some people think.

I would put my 14 year old son up against you with his useless mil scope and you can use your superior MOA scope and bullpup rifle at 1000 yards.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If you only speak one language, be it Mil,...MOA,...IPHY, or dog turds,... I feel for you. If you don't know why it's point less to go there.

 

[Bradu]

I would put my 14 year old son up against you with his useless mil scope and you can use your superior MOA scope and bullpup rifle at 1000 yards.

Nobody said it was superior you dumb cocksucker. Your reading comprehension is about as good as a 3 year old. Are you too chicken shit to shoot against me so you volunteer your kid to shoot in your spot ??? I have to say you have provided me with plenty of entertainment in this thread. I want to sincerely thank you for that!

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Nobody said it was superior you dumb cocksucker. Your reading comprehension is about as good as a 3 year old. Are you too chicken shit to shoot against me so you volunteer your kid to shoot in your spot ??? I have to say you have provided me with plenty of entertainment in this thread. I want to sincerely thank you for that!

Nope just saying it be funnier to watch a 14 year old beat you. You have not made one single statement on this thread that has made sense or supported your point.

 

[Steel head]

I speak all three languages and routinely see where the struggles and mistakes are.

We have so few MOA Shooters anymore we have to brand them with a blue scarlet letter to identify them.

We are designed for base 10, which is why we rock 10 fingers and toes

Lol

The badge of shame!

 

[seansmd]

Lol

The badge of shame!

That was my class up in AK in May, good fun!

 

[Bradu]

Nope just saying it be funnier to watch a 14 year old beat you. You have not made one single statement on this thread that has made sense or supported your point.

Coming from the guy that didn't comprehend what multiple people were saying ?‍ I'm sure there are plenty of 14 year old kids that can out shoot me but if of you taught him, I'm not worried one bit. I'm done with you so you can keep posting all you want with your regurgitated bullshit.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Lol

The badge of shame!

Nobody said it was superior you dumb cocksucker. Your reading comprehension is about as good as a 3 year old. Are you too chicken shit to shoot against me so you volunteer your kid to shoot in your spot ??? I have to say you have provided me with plenty of entertainment in this thread. I want to sincerely thank you for that!

Refer to post number 261 to maybe help you understand your stupidity. If you can understand it. I know the education in Illinois isn’t all that good either.

 

[Steel head]

Refer to post number 261 to maybe help you understand your stupidity. If you can understand it. I know the education in Illinois isn’t all that good either.

I’ve had a firm grasp on my stupidity for decades.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Coming from the guy that didn't comprehend what multiple people were saying ?‍ I'm sure there are plenty of 14 year old kids that can out shoot me but if of you taught him, I'm not worried one bit. I'm done with you so you can keep posting all you want with your regurgitated bullshit.

Your completely right I have no understanding of your posts which is probably where the argument came from. You refer to scoped shooters - not sure what your definition of that is but I assumed the opposite was non scoped shooters. Any rational person would take that to be someone that shoots without a scope like open or peep sights but then you turned around and criticized me by saying when did open sights come in MIl ( I actually think they do ) which I have no idea what you are saying. Please take your meds and take a nap.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I’ve had a firm grasp on my stupidity for decades.

Sorry was not trying to refer to you. My apologies

 

[Long Range 338]

Wait for it.......

 

[Lowlight]

Straight to the heart of the debate

 

[Steel head]

Straight to the heart of the debate

A classic!

 

[anon]

When some troll at a scope manufacturer begins making a 0.1 moa per click precision ELR rifle scope, that's the thread I want to see.

 

[seansmd]

Frank epic rant on the podcast!

 

[Bradu]

Frank epic rant on the podcast!

Epic or pathetic? Funny how people throw a fit when people don't agree with their thinking. Kind of reminds me of a liberal ?

 

[NVScout]

Frank epic rant on the podcast!

I wonder if the USO scope he helped with was IPHY or MOA ? Good podcast with some valid points.

 

[Lowlight]

Epic or pathetic? Funny how people throw a fit when people don't agree with their thinking. Kind of reminds me of a liberal ?

Which side of the debate is more liberal like, the side with facts and figures or the emotional amoebas that are tied to a dying legacy simple because it's how they always have done things. Think about it even the military has left it on the floor.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The military likes cheap an fast, because there are no different levels of dead or out of the fight. For people who don't know anything prior to entering the mil it's like all things mil, it has to be simple enough for every boot to use, under stress Most mil gear an weapons are almost stupid proof, they have to be based upon past history.

 

[Bradu]

Which side of the debate is more liberal like, the side with facts and figures or the emotional amoebas that are tied to a dying legacy simple because it's how they always have done things. Think about it even the military has left it on the floor.

I'm tied to it because I don't have the money to dump all my moa and switch but we can go with whatever fits your agenda ?

 

[NVScout]

I'm tied to it because I don't have the money to dump all my moa and switch but we can go with whatever fits your agenda ?

This is exactly where I am . I don’t care which units they are , as long as the reticle, turrets and software all line up.

 

[NVScout]

Still curious on the US optics scope frank helped bring to market as “the first MOA/MOA” optic a lot of irony there if it was IPHY/IPHY or maybe even MOA/IPHY ...... please tell @Lowlight

 

[Bradu]

This is exactly where I am . I don’t care which units they are , as long as the reticle, turrets and software all line up.

They still do what I need them to do and I shoot with several people that use moa so it's not a big deal. I normally take mil when shooting with the one group because that's what they use. I take an moa scope occasionally just to hear them whine ?

 

[Lowlight]

so look at it this way if I offered to switch all your scopes out would you ?


The USO was MOA\MOA Dr John was anal about that stuff

 

[seansmd]

Sounds like @Bradu and @NVScout aren't arguing that MOA is better, they are arguing that it works(which it does), and that they have a significant investment in and don't want to change. I don't remember hearing anyone calling for search and seizure of MOA and her red headed step children iphy, and smoa. Just the call for these troll posts to stop and people arguing against facts.

 

[Lowlight]

Exactly how I read it,

Yes it's fun to be anti change especially when I can't afford it. So let's troll the conversation with every contrarian argument I can think of. It's fun and keeps the trolling alive here.

They have nothing and said so numerous times

 

[NVScout]

so look at it this way if I offered to switch all your scopes out would you ?


The USO was MOA\MOA Dr John was anal about that stuff

I would take you up on that offer ! Like I was saying if I were to buy my 8th scope in mils that leaves 7 others in moa ..... what ever unit I’m going to use I’d prefer them to all be that. I stated early on I like the wind hold of mils and that’s what interested me from the start , I’m just to deep into it now to switch .

 

[Bradu]

so look at it this way if I offered to switch all your scopes out would you ?


The USO was MOA\MOA Dr John was anal about that stuff

Not all of them, I still shoot with a lot of people in Illinois. For some of the slow fuckers, that one was for @Diver160651. I would swap out the majority though.

One thing that is always mentioned is the easy method for doing wind on the fly being one of the main reasons mil is superior. There have even been threads on it but in reality, what percentage of people do you think are using that or even know about it.

 

[_Windrider_]

Not all of them, I still shoot with a lot of people in Illinois. For some of the slow fuckers, that one was for @Diver160651. I would swap out the majority though.

One thing that is always mentioned is the easy method for doing wind on the fly being one of the main reasons mil is superior. There have even been threads on it but in reality, what percentage of people do you think are using that or even know about it.

The ones that are successful. Let’s be honest, most of the guys you see at a range are fudds. They don’t have a clue but bought a long gun because it’s the latest cool thing. Reality is this mils are the future. I get not wanting to change because you are invested in MOA but that’s also a lame excuse to not adapt to the changes. If you used mils for say a year and nothing else, I promise you will never buy MOA again. In fact you’d be sending your scopes in for new reticles if you could.

Also pretty sure @Diver160651 lives in Cali not illinois

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Well I never tested many other than my own but my Type 1 MOA scope (22x SN-3) was touted as MOA when it fact it was IPHY

Reticles | US Optics

www.usoptics.com

When I had the type one swapped for the MDMOA it was IPHY as well.

They call it MOA but they subtend in IPHY,...

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If you used mils for say a year and nothing else, I promise you will never buy MOA again. In fact you’d be sending your scopes in for new reticles if you could.

Leupold has a pile of mil dot rets I had pulled out for MOA tree rets, to be installed an yes I own mil as well but,...

 

[Bradu]

Sounds like @Bradu and @NVScout aren't arguing that MOA is better, they are arguing that it works(which it does), and that they have a significant investment in and don't want to change. I don't remember hearing anyone calling for search and seizure of MOA and her red headed step children iphy, and smoa. Just the call for these troll posts to stop and people arguing against facts.

No, but listening to some of the condescending cocksuckers gets old especially when some of them are just a fucking parrot. Which is where my question in the reply to lowlife came from. That's not trolling as I don't believe it's used by as many people as some of you think.