DBM reasons?

[blksno]

Other than mag capacity or having extra loaded mags handy, are there any advantages to having a rifle built to handle bottom metal with mags as opposed to the conventional internal mag (for lack of a better word) that comes factory on most?

It just seems that if one were to do a build, and OAL was a potential issue (like using 180 or 190 VLDs in a 7mm WSM) using a box mag would only limit your OAL more.

What say you?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: DBM reasons?

unless you're shooting tactical style comps, or it's a real working gun, no reason...


except to look KEWL

 

[jasonk]

Re: DBM reasons?

All depends on what you're using the rifle for.

And feeding a wsm from an internal box can sometimes be a bear.

 

[blksno]

Re: DBM reasons?

I was kinda thinking this. Don't get me wrong, I also think they look kewl, I just didn't know if there were any structural advantages.
My purpose, if I were to do a build, would be strictly hunting and banging steel. I am considering either a 7mm SAUM or 6.5 SAUM but it will be a year or two down the line for a bolt gun. I just assumed that taking advantage of every possible COAL mm, for a caliber of this sort, would be the way to go.
Not to mention the cost saving aspect of avoiding something that is only a fancy add-on for my application.

Thanks fellas.

 

[jasonk]

Re: DBM reasons?

Well, if you remove the front plate of an AICS mag or use an aftermarket mag that does not have front plate, you typically have to notch the feed ramp of a Rem 700 so that the bullets can rise up out of the mag and not get caught.

This would have me believe that you actually have more OAL when using a mag then you do without.

 

[sticshooter]

Re: DBM reasons?

build it on a winchester action,they're a tad longer than remington's short action giving a little longer seating depth.my vote would be for the 7rsaum,better BC bullets than 6.5 and a little less harsh on the barrel.i buildt a 7rsaum for f class and it was a lazer beam.was shooting 168 bergers at around 3000 fps.back to topic,no advantage with a DBM for your application.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: DBM reasons?

Mag clearance on my Seekins set up on a Stiller Predator SA will allow 3.17

The throat isn't cut that deep, but if I needed it, it's there.

Also an internal box holds three WSM's, my detachable mag holds five.

Detachable mag will also allow you to unload the rifle quickly without having to cycle them out, or dropping the floor plate spilling them on the ground.

 

[Johnny Lately]

Re: DBM reasons?

The kewl factor mostly, I think it's easier to reload too. I have run in to the problem of OAL though and it sucks.

 

[blksno]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you remove the front plate of an AICS mag or use an aftermarket mag that does not have front plate, you typically have to notch the feed ramp of a Rem 700 so that the bullets can rise up out of the mag and not get caught.

This would have me believe that you actually have more OAL when using a mag then you do without. </div></div>

Doesn't the back of the mag still suck up some of the length that would normally be available?
I've done a very successful mod for long OAL 243WSSM ammo out of my AR so a slight mod to notch the feed ramp wouldn't be out of my realm of possibilities. I can currently feed 2.400" length rounds from my PMAGs with no worries.

The whole idea is still a long time off, so I'm not real concerned on which caliber I will ultimately chose, although I do love the 7mm bullets. No question. My application however, should be well suited for either one.

 

[Heronion]

Re: DBM reasons?

I personally vastly prefer the detachable magazines, for hunting purposes. The whole see, slam, shoot method works much better than if you're trying to load a single round with an internal magazine. But for your purposes, unless you're shooting fast strings and need the extra rounds, I don't really see the point. But it does look great.

 

[blksno]

Re: DBM reasons?

haha if everything is built right, and I practice...shooting fast strings should never be needed out of a bolt gun built for hunting. That's what the gas gun is for.

 

[Rootshot]

Re: DBM reasons?

When hunting where you transition into and out of a vehicle frequently, having a DBM makes securing / making legal the rifle a bit easier.

--Rootshot

 

[blksno]

Re: DBM reasons?

In South Dakota, it is perfectly legal to transport a rifle without a case and with ammo in an internal or box mag, and so, if there was ammo in the rifle, nothing in the pipe, it would be just as quick. Exit the vehicle, and rack a round.
However, it would be an ultra rare occasion that I would be doing any frequent vehicle transition. We usually pack up the drag bag, ditch the pickup in the morning and walk/sit till we score or decide to make a new plan.
Luxury of the open prairie I guess. For my situation, a box mag wouldn't be any faster since the rifle is loaded up in the morning and the internal mag would stay that way all day long.
My dad runs an old 6mm in a 788 with a box mag and it's not much different than the M70 or 700 when it comes to entering or exiting a vehicle. It's just not an issue for us to travel with the rifle here in SD.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rootshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When hunting where you transition into and out of a vehicle frequently, having a DBM makes securing / making legal the rifle a bit easier.

--Rootshot</div></div>

except that if you'll really read the laws in the states that ban the tranport of a loaded firearm, you'll find that a lot also consider a loaded mag a loaded firearm

 

[oregon]

Re: DBM reasons?

DBMs are more safe. Easier to use. Especially on a gun you hunt with or carry every day. DBMs minimize precision ammo handling to keep it most accurate for when you need one shot to get the job done.

For a bad example, when working every day with an internal mag Remy 700, I tend to put live shells below once and rarely have a live one in the chamber. So there are always bullets in it below from the start of my trip to the end, as long as in a situation where can control access to my gun because do not want strangers/kids finding it and playing with it when has live shells below. Otherwise every time go for a walk which could be 100s of times found I was cycling bullets to be safe which is not good either for many reasons including I feel the less a precision re-load is handled the more accurate it is (when shoot shells that have been in and out of the chamber and in and out of the mag do not find as accurate for me).

I prefer to hunt with my bolt rifle that has a DBM. The DBM can be removed any time when not in use. You then instantly know the gun has no bullets. Just in case someone is around it when not in your hands. If you keep your clip on you, only you have bullets for the rifle. More safe. Precision re-load ammo handling is minimized. I like to carry or have extra clip(s) around to reload the entire gun in the time it takes to put one bullet in an internal mag gun when need to.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oregon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DBMs are more safe. Especially on a gun you hunt with or carry every day. One you use instead of look at. DBMs minimize precision ammo handling to keep it most accurate for when you need one shot to get the job done.

For a bad example, when working every day with an internal mag Remy 700, I tend to put live shells below once and rarely have a live one in the chamber. So there are always bullets in it below from the start of my trip to the end, as long as in a situation where can control access to my gun because do not want strangers/kids finding it and playing with it when has live shells below. Otherwise every time go for a walk which could be 100s of times found I was cycling bullets to be safe which is not good either for many reasons including I feel the less a precision re-load is handled the more accurate it is (when shoot shells that have been in and out of the chamber and in and out of the mag do not find as accurate for me).

I prefer to hunt with my bolt rifle that has a DBM. The DBM can be removed any time when not in use. You then instantly know the gun has no bullets. Just in case someone is around it when not in your hands. If you keep your clip on you, only you have bullets for the rifle. More safe. Precision re-load ammo handling is minimized. I like to carry or have extra clip(s) around in some situations as well and find they reload the entire gun more quickly when need to.
</div></div>

Clips? Really?

Personally I would rather single feed then deal with internal box mags.

 

[oregon]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally I would rather single feed then deal with internal box mags.</div></div>

Bacarrat, do agree single feed can be best in some situations where have bullets easy to grab. Have seen experts be amazingly fast as well as effective. Single feed minimizes ammo movement in the action for accuracy - no possible bumps on the front to change overall length before launch.

Like to have multiple DBMs in some daily use hunting situations. Find there are times when do not want to have any bullets with near or around my rifle. For example, when transporting between shooting locations with kids or city slickers around who have never even touched a gun know nothing about them while might have access when am not looking. To get the second shot in time wearing layered clothes with pack can be difficult so to have multiple rounds ready in the gun in a DBM is very convenient. Hunting in the brush were accuracy doesn't matter as much as getting shot(s) off fast on something moving. Some times unable to single feed as no bullets to grab fast enough when need multiple shots fast unexpectedly. Can only think of one situation where needed two DBMs in a real hunting situation and it helped me get more running coyote than would have otherwise.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: DBM reasons?

i use them cause they are very snipery

 

[37841anarchy]

Re: DBM reasons?

All that plus the factory internal mag is shite. Well mine is at least.

 

[Okshooter]

Re: DBM reasons?

Totally for the cool factor. Well, and when you live in oklahoma and your tac-match calls to engage 6 targets, unknown distances, timed. Then that 10rnd AICS mag looks REALLY appealing.

 

[E3C3H3O3]

Re: DBM reasons?

Unless you are shooting matches or need it for your snipering, the only reason to have the DBM is the Cool Snipery Factor, which is the only reason I would have one

 

[blksno]

Re: DBM reasons?

Lots of good info and opinions fellas, appreciated. I, would have a hard time believing that it would be more safe, FOR MY APPLICATIONS, but I can't argue that, for some, the reasons oregon noted, will apply.
I will also agree that for a precision bullet, the less its chambered, the better...but then again. For big game hunting, I'm not cambering a bullet unless I'm ready to touch it off. (coyote hunting is different, almost always got one in the pipe)
The way we hunt on the prairie is just not quite the same as it's done elsewhere I guess.
Also, when I shoot from the bench, I don't load mags anyway. I prefer to single feed from my ammo boxes.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: DBM reasons?

What I've noticed.....

Pros:

1)You get more OAL from most DBMs

2)It looks operator which makes people feel kool

3)It relieves the pressure normally put on the bottom of the action by your BDL follower/mag spring. This probably doesn't mean jack shit but one could argue its beneficial to accuracy.

4)Faster reloads until you run out of spare mags

5)You can drop your mag/ammo to clear a weapon, then quickly slap it back in and be back in business. Rather than unlatching your BDL floorplate and then having to load the rounds in through the top again.

6) If installed correctly, upward pressure wont bind it up and I've seen guys make hits using their mag as a rear rest.(this has a negative as well...)


Cons:

1) The mags get in the way and makes it hard for me to shoot off my pack. Its just one more thing to get in the way.

2)If installed incorrectly it will screw you. And Ive seen many rifles mess up from them. Example would be you cant run the bolt past the mag with upward pressure on it. Another would be it wasnt in all the way, fell into the dirt, and now the guy with the BDL has all his rounds in and is ready to rock. Another would be your bolt passing right over the top round in one of your mags, for any number of reasons.

3)Mods have to sometimes be done to the receiver to make full use of them.

4) Cost. Around $80 a mag, its expensive to have several spares. And if you dont have 3 or 4 spare mags, why the hell do you even have a DBM system??

5) Youre pretty much stuck with single stack mags unless getting an AW. This is a less efficient way to store ammo. This isnt a negative if you dont mind the magazine hanging down I guess.

6) Most people have no need to load that fast or shoot that volume of ammo, and I notice half the people who own DBMs only have one or two mags which defeats the purpose.



I use an M4, hinged floor plate. Everyone else I know uses M5s(DBM). Ive never not been able to reload fast enough. Practice makes you quick at reloading any weapon.
When the day comes that I dont get rounds in my rifle fast enough, I'll probably switch. Hell I wouldnt doubt it if it happened in New Mexico next month. But still, Im going to wait until I see that I need one before I give up the way I rest my rifle on my pack.

 

[Iggy]

Re: DBM reasons?

One quick question playing devils advocate. When someone says "unless it's a work gun" what does that mean?

From what I have seen most LE and military bolt action rifles based off the 700 action action has a bottom plate and not a detachable magazine. Even the ones being used by our military now.

I have also been told that when a LE sniper team is used there is more than one shooter on the target. I was told that if between all the shooters they cannot hit the target or with the rest of the rounds left in the internal magazine, they are doing something wrong.

I am not an expert on the matter, and if I was misinformed please correct me.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: DBM reasons?

Well the M40s are using M5s now right?

I see why military snipers need more rounds in todays conflicts. But Id be using an AR platform in that case.

 

[E3C3H3O3]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iggy.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One quick question playing devils advocate. When someone says "unless it's a work gun" what does that mean?

From what I have seen most LE and military bolt action rifles based off the 700 action action has a bottom plate and not a detachable magazine. Even the ones being used by our military now.

I have also been told that when a LE sniper team is used there is more than one shooter on the target. I was told that if between all the shooters they cannot hit the target or with the rest of the rounds left in the internal magazine, they are doing something wrong.

I am not an expert on the matter, and if I was misinformed please correct me. </div></div>

Just had to say I love your avatar Iggy, Stitch is my homie,LOL

 

[Guest]

Re: DBM reasons?

I personally don't see the point of detachable mags in just about any application, how many of us are facing down armed taliban fighters, 4 rounds down in the mag is all anyone needs in a bolt gun. so much about tactical is about looks, there is a ton of monkey see monkey do. don't be dumb. if you need to fire off 10 rounds out of a bolt gun, maybe a semi auto would be a better choice for a guy.

they stick out the bottom of the gun and most of the time has a latch that further protrudes below that, this aught to make the gun just about impossible to carry slinged, much less while riding on a 4 wheeler. I do alot of coyote calling every time I go to get back in the truck, I slide the bolt back with my left hand wrapping around the stock and the shell bumps my finger tips and falls off the extractor, my right thumb quickly pushes that shell back in the magazine, if I used a clip I have to either eject the shell on the ground or drop the mag and let the shell fall out the bottom, either way its more effort and unneeded.

I am building up a custom on a BAT action, I asked BAT if they could supply a different bolt so I could run the WSM rounds, however I would have to change out the mag box to do that. the ONLY benefit to detachable bottom metal is in this situation, a bolt change and a mag change and nothing else would let me go from 308 class rounds to WSM rounds.

while super accurate the reason why I don't hunt with tikkas is I just hate clips. plus there is always a chance you lose the clip or for whatever reason don't have it, you would be surprised how easy it is to forget the clip when going to the range or on an outing.

 

[Iggy]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well the M40s are using M5s now right?

I see why military snipers need more rounds in todays conflicts. But Id be using an AR platform in that case. </div></div>

I did not know that, but along the lines of more rounds in urban environments isn't that why the Army started using the M110?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E3C3H3O3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just had to say I love your avatar Iggy, Stitch is my homie,LOL</div></div>

Haha, thanks! I like how they made his character to be an alter ego to the Tasmanian devil.

 

[pshell]

Re: DBM reasons?

Pros: Loading, unloading, longer OAL with modified magazines. Top loading rounds sucks as does jamming up your rifle when a round gets in between the receiver and the rail (that can be overcome with practice).

Cons: Mag gets in the way sometimes (this can also be overcome with some forethought on your position). Expensive.

You can still single feed to your hearts content with either system. I try to shoot my rifle as much as I can. A DBM makes it that much more enjoyable.

You can also keep different types of ammo ready for different things, not sure how that applies to civilian use.
I think the argument has been solved a long time ago. Using a detachable magazine in a weapon system is pretty much the standard for modern firearms design.

 

[Guest]

Re: DBM reasons?

I use DBM's because,
(1)Trying to reload the internal one to max under time an pressure sucks. Some match's do not allow loose ammo to be staged an single loaded
(2)I shoot comp's and there are stages where 15-20 targets have to be engaged in under 2 minutes.
(3)Some high stress/real life match's "May require, a few Specials" to be shot in order to kill the target, those rds are always but a mag change away. The 175SMK is not a do all.
(4)You don't have to prepare for everything, a stress match/event, may throw at you, but it helps.

 

[Charger442]

Re: DBM reasons?

those who think its only because it looks cool have never had the pleasure of using one. loading and unloading a full internal mag of shells for hunting can be annoying, loud (in the morning or in the field getting in and out of blinds etc) and if you drop them out of the bottom trap door, good luck catching them all before they hit the ground/table/ etc with your one free hand.

to me, DBM just makes functional sense. i see no aesthetic advantage. if you are taking note of that, maybe it means more to you than function does.

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: DBM reasons?

Bottom line is the pro's out weigh the cons, there is simply no reason other cost to convert.

Just like going from ADL to BDL its an evolution that makes no since to go backwards.

 

[cal50]

Re: DBM reasons?

Much easier to clean and clear the action by dropping the magazine. Dumping the ammo is fast and easy over a floor plate. Switching ammo on the fly is quicker.

Is there any gun where a detachable magazine is a negative?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: DBM reasons?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cal50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is there any gun where a detachable magazine is a negative? </div></div>

There are many.

DBMs have their purpose. So do BDLs. So do ADLs.

One thing is never the solution to everything.


If you have an application where you do not need to fire more than one correctly placed round and a DBM could get in your way, then its not right for that situation. There are many situations like that.

How many snipers go out and never fire a shot?
How many hunting situations warrant a DBM?
How many benchrest guys need a DBM?

Not every rifle should be a swiss army knife tactical one


To say DBMs are the next step in rifle evolution is silly. They were being done a long time ago. Its just an option that works well for some peoples applications.