Given the "tighter" dimensions, has anyone run into "issues" with cerakoting there actions or bolts? any previous experience or "end user" experience would be appreciated. I'm a cerakote applicator so I'm familiar with their products and applications. Thanks
Gunsmithing Defiance & Bighorn Actions & Cerakote
- Thread starter mildot326
- Start date
There is no issue, provided someone who knows what they're doing is the one doing the work. LongRifles Inc has cerakoted hundreds of these actions, in addition to several Mausingfields, and they haven't had any issues.
I know this because I called them and asked the same question, with the same concerns you have.
I know this because I called them and asked the same question, with the same concerns you have.
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that's a very broad statement which tolerances come into play to answer properly. I personally have scene numerous Defiance actions have binding and fitment issues once cerakoted.
There has to be enough bolt to receiver clearance for the action to cycle properly. If its tight to begin with and you cerakote the receiver internally you add .001 of material than if you coat the bolt you add another .001 of material.
Now, as I understand it not all Defiance are created equal. Smith's and individuals can order actions from them with their own specified tolerances.
So, if you know your going to cerakote your Defiance you or your Smith can order an action and give the specific tolerances to Defiance accounting for cerakote and those actions will not have issues..
I don't know why anyone uses cerakote on actions anymore with DLC around. lolol I've had cerakote, Melonite, NP3, and DLC. I'll take my DLC Bighorn all day long. smooth as glass.
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I agree DLC is much nicer. Although the new Cerakote Elite supposedly competes with it from a lubricity perspective, and is a decent bit thinner than standard Cerakote. I still don't think it's as thin as DLC.
DLC is considerably more expensive, however. Club Custom Guns charges around $230 for the action if you disassemble it all yourself and that doesn't even include the barrel.
PVA did mine for $175. If you buy a Bighorn TL3 you get DLC for no additional cost and if you have an older Bighorn they will do it for $75.
I've never heard of anyone DLC their barrel and is never included in the cost of an action coating. I don't cost barrels, they get shot out and replaced so often it's a waste of money unless it's a safe queen or hunting rifleman. In that case have the barrel cerakoted graphite black to match the DLC color.
I've never heard of anyone DLC their barrel and is never included in the cost of an action coating. I don't cost barrels, they get shot out and replaced so often it's a waste of money unless it's a safe queen or hunting rifleman. In that case have the barrel cerakoted graphite black to match the DLC color.
"Given the "tighter" dimensions, has anyone run into "issues" with cerakoting there actions or bolts? any previous experience or "end user" experience would be appreciated. I'm a cerakote applicator so I'm familiar with their products and applications. Thanks"
Yep, all the time.
There are a number of ways to resolve this. Here is what I did to solve it with what I feel is the right way:
Yes, its bold.
I bought a Sunnen precision honing machine 15 years ago. 1st piece of machine shop equipment I ever owned. 4 or so years ago I stumbled upon a particular tool for this thing. "single stroke hone" It's a diamond embedded "corn cob" capable of sizing a bore that has multiple interregularities or features. -Just like a bolt action receiver has. That has always been the challenge for reamers and conventional hones. They like to grab on trigger well features, bolt stop slots, raceway edges, etc. . .
So, say you have bolt that is .700" and a hole that is .702" You get .001" radial clearance right? Great. No bolt tip, no anything. Now you want it coated. If you are "3rd order Steven Segal ninja black belt" with a paint gun you can lay a precise "one mil" layer of coating on the bolt and the inner receiver bore. Doing so creates an interference fit. Bolt is now .702" and the hole puckered up to .700".
Those kind of dimensions are only fun on prom night in the back seat of a car...
Something has to give. This is where the hone comes in. I can "punch the bore" to basically whatever I want/need. Using the hone ensures its straight, round, taper free, and blah blah. Cerakote is not all the same. Desert Sand does not apply the same way as Graphite Black. You have to lay it on slightly heavier to hide the substrate. The lesson here is there is no single number to strive for. You need something with some range to do this predictably. I've solved that with this little addition to our lineup of services.
Price of admission? About $3,000 for the tooling. You'll need a few of them as the range they have is very small. Then you need mandrels, gauging, and the adapters to mount them into the chuck. That isn't included.
What this does for you though is provide the fit and finish that is commanded by this trade. Your not going to have a nice car painted and ignore the trunk and door jams. I have committed to take the same approach here.
It's a vetted process and one that parallels what a number of action companies are already doing when they make the receivers. -Jim Borden immediately comes to mind as we chatted about it after I bought the tooling.
As for DLC:
It is nice. Really nice. Right up till it start falling off the action. I've come to learn that its not an easy thing to do. The major companies that do it have a habit of dropping balls. Its not as indistructable as its been touted to be. It wears just like anything else. The other thing about it that sucks is you absolutely cannot touch an action that's been done. I bed guns and blend the tangs 1:1 with the stock. Can't do that on a DLC action without removing it.
That is a lesson to take from this. IF you insist on having it done fine. Just wait until your chosen smith is absolutely 100% done with whatever he is doing for you in terms of barrel fitment and stock work. Its again like a car. So much harder to go in and do heavy handed work on a show car that has a zillion dollar paint job on it already. Especially when you have the ability to just hold off until that work is already done.
This is a good, good topic. It gets into a number of related things that shops are faced with.
Yep, all the time.
There are a number of ways to resolve this. Here is what I did to solve it with what I feel is the right way:
Yes, its bold.
I bought a Sunnen precision honing machine 15 years ago. 1st piece of machine shop equipment I ever owned. 4 or so years ago I stumbled upon a particular tool for this thing. "single stroke hone" It's a diamond embedded "corn cob" capable of sizing a bore that has multiple interregularities or features. -Just like a bolt action receiver has. That has always been the challenge for reamers and conventional hones. They like to grab on trigger well features, bolt stop slots, raceway edges, etc. . .
So, say you have bolt that is .700" and a hole that is .702" You get .001" radial clearance right? Great. No bolt tip, no anything. Now you want it coated. If you are "3rd order Steven Segal ninja black belt" with a paint gun you can lay a precise "one mil" layer of coating on the bolt and the inner receiver bore. Doing so creates an interference fit. Bolt is now .702" and the hole puckered up to .700".
Those kind of dimensions are only fun on prom night in the back seat of a car...
Something has to give. This is where the hone comes in. I can "punch the bore" to basically whatever I want/need. Using the hone ensures its straight, round, taper free, and blah blah. Cerakote is not all the same. Desert Sand does not apply the same way as Graphite Black. You have to lay it on slightly heavier to hide the substrate. The lesson here is there is no single number to strive for. You need something with some range to do this predictably. I've solved that with this little addition to our lineup of services.
Price of admission? About $3,000 for the tooling. You'll need a few of them as the range they have is very small. Then you need mandrels, gauging, and the adapters to mount them into the chuck. That isn't included.
What this does for you though is provide the fit and finish that is commanded by this trade. Your not going to have a nice car painted and ignore the trunk and door jams. I have committed to take the same approach here.
It's a vetted process and one that parallels what a number of action companies are already doing when they make the receivers. -Jim Borden immediately comes to mind as we chatted about it after I bought the tooling.
As for DLC:
It is nice. Really nice. Right up till it start falling off the action. I've come to learn that its not an easy thing to do. The major companies that do it have a habit of dropping balls. Its not as indistructable as its been touted to be. It wears just like anything else. The other thing about it that sucks is you absolutely cannot touch an action that's been done. I bed guns and blend the tangs 1:1 with the stock. Can't do that on a DLC action without removing it.
That is a lesson to take from this. IF you insist on having it done fine. Just wait until your chosen smith is absolutely 100% done with whatever he is doing for you in terms of barrel fitment and stock work. Its again like a car. So much harder to go in and do heavy handed work on a show car that has a zillion dollar paint job on it already. Especially when you have the ability to just hold off until that work is already done.
This is a good, good topic. It gets into a number of related things that shops are faced with.
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Great info!! I guess if your LRI you can adjust for whatever tolerances are needed
I've heard of some DLC issues with it flaking off but I haven't experienced that with mine. I hear it has to do with the prescribed prep work and who does the coating but I'm no expert on the stuff. All I can say is I'm very happy with mine.
Great info!! I guess if your LRI you can adjust for whatever tolerances are needed
Clearance. Not tolerance. There's a difference...
Clearance. Not tolerance. There's a difference...
Be careful, not all Defiance actions are created equal in terms of "tightness." My lone Defiance action is from SAC, and based on conversations with Mark Gordon, he has started ordering his actions with slightly more clearance to aid in reliability. The point is that Defiance will make an action to custom specifications, so some will be tighter than others.
FWIW, my Defiance has a melonited bolt and a Cerakoted receiver. Runs like a champ and oh so smooth.
FWIW, my Defiance has a melonited bolt and a Cerakoted receiver. Runs like a champ and oh so smooth.
Be careful, not all Defiance actions are created equal in terms of "tightness." My lone Defiance action is from SAC, and based on conversations with Mark Gordon, he has started ordering his actions with slightly more clearance to aid in reliability. The point is that Defiance will make an action to custom specifications, so some will be tighter than others.
Well stated and why we have these: Gauge pins.
This isn't the set appropriate for a full size M700 clone as its only to 5/8", but its what a guy really wants/needs to do this. I just snapped the pic because they are in close proximity to where I'm working today. FWIW I have from .01 to 1.0 in .001" increments.
Not cheap, but none of this stuff is.
![20180321_172302[1].jpg](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/20180321_172302-1-jpg.6886289/ "20180321_172302[1].jpg")
![20180321_172310[1].jpg](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/20180321_172310-1-jpg.6886290/ "20180321_172310[1].jpg")
Well stated and why we have these: Gauge pins.
This isn't the set appropriate for a full size M700 clone as its only to 5/8", but its what a guy really wants/needs to do this. I just snapped the pic because they are in close proximity to where I'm working today. FWIW I have from .01 to 1.0 in .001" increments.
Not cheap, but none of this stuff is.
Great info!! I guess if your LRI you can adjust for whatever tolerances are needed
Clearance. Not tolerance. There's a difference...
i dont pretend to be a gunsmith. That's what I mean. haha
