Gunsmithing Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

slg888

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This is the 2nd Defiance I've had that mis-fires. 1st Defiance we changed the firing spring to a Wolf 32lb spring and that seemed to cure the problem, only 1 mis-fire in last 40 shots.

The current Defiance had spring replaced, but still mis-fires. It's not my CCI BR2 primers because they work fine in my Bat & Surgeon actions. The firing pin hits the primer good, so I'm thinking the Jewel triggers are not right.

Maybe try a Timney?


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nso123

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WindDoper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably not trigger, How is headspace? </div></div>

Kind of what I was thinking. Just enough off that it is letting the round not absorb the complete strike.
 

slg888

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Headspace is fine, stuck a piece of scoth-tape on bottom of fired cartridge and bolt was difficult to close.
 

seanh

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Looks like that should go off but there can be a fine line between bang and not. I'd guess that there isn't enough firing pin protrusion...how much do you have?

Before I worry about it, I'd pull the pin, and clean it, the spring and inside of the bolt...don't forget the firing pin hole (maybe there is just some crap in there)



 

HarryCallahan

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Make sure the cocking piece isn't dragging on the sides of the trigger housing. If the trigger or trigger pins are a tight fit it can cause binding.
 

Jim See

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night poacher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Headspace is fine, stuck a piece of scoth-tape on bottom of fired cartridge and bolt was difficult to close. </div></div>

you can't check headspace with a fired case, the case was fireformed to chamber dimensions so of course the bolt is going to close hard with tape on it.

Try one of the cases that didn't go off, pull the bullet and dump the powder, or try one of the new cases before loading, and put one layer of tape on it and see how the bolt closes.
 

Graham

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

I had one with metal shavings in the firing pin hole: Intermittent misfires until the bolt was disassembled, the hole and spring cleaned of shavings, then reassembled. No problems since.
 

slg888

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Jim, yes with a fired case it's has more resistance closing the bolt with tape. I put a piece of tape on a new Lupua un-fired brass and it does not have the same of amount of resistance, although it does have a little.

This is the 2nd Defiance I've had mis-firing issues with. Glen Harrison told me 1 1/2 yrs ago the quality of triggers being made on ebm machining vs CNC has caused some of these problems.

I'm not a machinist so think he said ebm/edm....something like that.
 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Light strikes in Defiance actions have been a problem in the past. I won't go into the technical details, but it's why I designed the 510-U and went to a different firing pin spring. With other triggers and the factory 24 lb spring in a Defiance action (most 24 lb springs I've tested are actually in the 17 lb range), there's not enough inertia in the fire control system.

The 510-U and a Wolff 28 lb spring will fix the issue, but you'll notice a heavier bolt lift without other mods/repairs that we perform at BlackOps Tech. There's also another solution that will be widely available in the April timeframe (more details to follow).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night poacher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the 2nd Defiance I've had mis-firing issues with. Glen Harrison told me 1 1/2 yrs ago the quality of triggers being made on ebm machining vs CNC has caused some of these problems. </div></div>

I don't think I can support this comment when the other available actions on the market work fine with the available triggers on the market. It was noted by your rifle builder that trigger placement was an issue and he predicted the problem....jus sayin.


 

slg888

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Light strikes in Defiance actions have been a problem in the past. I won't go into the technical details, but it's why I designed the 510-U and went to a different firing pin spring. With other triggers and the factory 24 lb spring in a Defiance action (most 24 lb springs I've tested are actually in the 17 lb range), there's not enough inertia in the fire control system.

The 510-U and a Wolff 28 lb spring will fix the issue, but you'll notice a heavier bolt lift without other mods that we perform at BlackOps Tech. There's also another solution that will be widely available in the April timeframe (more details to follow). </div></div> I heard talk of Defiance actions not firing, surprized I'm the 1st post/Defiance owner bringing this issue up.

Mike, what is 510-U ?
 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night poacher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Light strikes in Defiance actions have been a problem in the past. I won't go into the technical details, but it's why I designed the 510-U and went to a different firing pin spring. With other triggers and the factory 24 lb spring in a Defiance action (most 24 lb springs I've tested are actually in the 17 lb range), there's not enough inertia in the fire control system.

The 510-U and a Wolff 28 lb spring will fix the issue, but you'll notice a heavier bolt lift without other mods that we perform at BlackOps Tech. There's also another solution that will be widely available in the April timeframe (more details to follow). </div></div> I heard talk of Defiance actions not firing, surprized I'm the 1st post/Defiance owner bringing this issue up.

Mike, what is 510-U ? </div></div>

Timney makes the model 510. I redesigned it and Timney saw a need to make it and assigned the model designator of 510-U. The "U" denotes "Underground," which comes from my old business name. You can call Timney and speak to Jeff or Kevin to order the 510-U (511-U if you're left handed).
 

slg888

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

Gradous built all my rifles and never a single issue with my Bat,Surgeon, or my original phoenix action.

Gradous mentioned while bulding these 2 latest Defiance custom's rifles that the trigger location and weak springs may pose problem.....Robert Gradous was correct.

And we have changed the springs to Wolf 28 pounders. The headspace is not the issue. Maybe changing the amount of firing pin extrusion will be the next step. I like Defiance actions and the quality & Customer service Glen offers, so I'm sure this problem will get reconciled.

Mike I'll order the Timney. Anyone intersted in a Jewel trigger(new), PM me. I'll take the cash and buy a Mike Black-ops 510 Timney for this Defiance.
 

AccuSol-ERN

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

A lot of builders are using the defiance action and marking it with their insignia, so it would seem this issue would be really common and mentioned frequently. So I would check the most likely culprits that are easily overlooked upon final assembly and easily corrected once identified.

Check:
- Firing pin protusion (should be between .045"-.065")
- Make sure the cross pin that holds the cockingpiece on the firing pin is not dragging on the inside of the bolt shroud.
- Check to see if the cockingpiece is dragging between the sides of the trigger housing. Sometimes when the trigger is installed the housing gets pinched and creates problems.
- Also regarding the ammo, you might make sure the primers are fully seated in the pocket and are not moving forward and absorbing some of the firing pin impact.

Let us know what you come up with.

Ern
 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night poacher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gradous built all my rifles and never a single issue with my Bat,Surgeon, or my original phoenix action.

Gradous mentioned while bulding these 2 latest Defiance custom's rifles that the trigger location and weak springs may pose problem.....Robert Gradous was correct.

And we have changed the springs to Wolf 28 pounders. The headspace is not the issue. Maybe changing the amount of firing pin extrusion will be the next step. I like Defiance actions and the quality & Customer service Glen offers, so I'm sure this problem will get reconciled.

Mike I'll order the Timney. Anyone intersted in a Jewel trigger(new), PM me. I'll take the cash and buy a Mike Black-ops 510 Timney for this Defiance. </div></div>

With Robert at the helm, I'm sure headspace isn't the issue. I designed the 510-U at the tail end of the Phoenix days, so the issue has existed off and on for a while. Variables that aren't managed and a lack of metrology always come back to bite in numerous ways.

If you need help with firing pin protrusion, shoot me a PM, or Robert can guide you through it as well.

 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fng23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Check:
- Firing pin protusion (should be between .045"-.065")
- Make sure the cross pin that holds the cockingpiece on the firing pin is not dragging on the inside of the bolt shroud.
- Check to see if the cockingpiece is dragging between the sides of the trigger housing. Sometimes when the trigger is installed the housing gets pinched and creates problems.
- Also regarding the ammo, you might make sure the primers are fully seated in the pocket and are not moving forward and absorbing some of the firing pin impact.

Let us know what you come up with.

Ern </div></div>

These are all normal things to check (although I don't agree with a .020" tolerance for firing pin protrusion) and it's a good list of things that do not pertain to the receiver, but history also dictates that the cocking piece channel on Defiance receivers should be checked to see if it's on the centerline of the boltway. If there's a finish on the receiver (such as Cerakote), a good clue will be if there's finish knocked off of one of the corners on either side of the channel opening, revealing a shiny spot.

If the channel is off center, and they have been, the cocking piece will drag, which slows the firing pin down, creating a light strike condition.

A shiny spot doesn't necessarily mean that the channel is off center, but it could point to the cocking piece not indexing properly in the back of the bolt body, which will hold the cocking piece off center with the channel. This has also been the source of light strikes in the Defiance actions and should be added to FNG23's list.
 

J-Ham

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    Well maybe if you'd make your damned action Mike, we wouldn't be having this conversation!!!
    mad.gif
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well maybe if you'd make your damned action Mike, we wouldn't be having this conversation!!!
    mad.gif
    </div></div>

    I suppose you're right. A few things are coming down the pike.
     

    gamma

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    Do we have any update on what the issue was here.
     

    jnesto

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    I ordered one about two weeks ago andI expect them to perform as well as all the other Defiance actions without any issue.
     

    slg888

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do we have any update on what the issue was here. </div></div> Basically improper trigger placement in the Defiance. By adding a stronger spring & Timney allowing a harder strike should help.....not fix, though help.
     

    ackleyfan

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    My question is if Defiance's trigger placement is indeed off why don't alot more folks have misfiring issues, or could it be more than one design flaw mixed with trigger placement?
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well maybe if you'd make your damned action Mike, we wouldn't be having this conversation!!!
    mad.gif
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    I suppose you're right. A few things are coming down the pike.</div></div>

    Looking forward to more information on this!!
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ackleyfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question is if Defiance's trigger placement is indeed off why don't alot more folks have misfiring issues, or could it be more than one design flaw mixed with trigger placement? </div></div>

    Mine sure did, I am not sure how common it is or not, but I was getting crazy light primer strikes, I thought it was a combination of the Defiance and the Timney trigger, the X-Marks holds the firing pin back further than even the 510U, its geometry is different, and the sear sits lower in the Timney than the X-Mark. I solved my problem by installing a much stronger firing pin spring, the strongest one I could find...
     

    JeffP40

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    From looking at the pics, I am surprised they didn't fire. Could it be a combination of several things? Spring not quite imparting enough energy, a bit too little pin extension, and deep seated primers? It looks as though the primer pockets are pretty deep. It may be a case of the straw that broke the camels back?
     

    A10XRIFLE

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    Well, We have used over 1700 Defiance actions and only ever had 3-4 people that had light strikes. We have always used a 28 lb spring as I prefer it. and we use al sorts if triggers.

    My shooting team which is 11 guys shot over 80,000 rounds of ammo last year and they all use Defiance/Templars none had any issues.

    Id look for somthing more specific than just blaming the action.

    Id also Call Glen or Mike at Defiance instead of asking for Internet wisdom.
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    George, I wouldn't have said anything personally in this thread, but Mike is the guy who is insinuating that the striker slot might be off center, I don't know, unless Glen was here himself, that you are going to get it straighter from the horse's mouth
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    When I was dealing with my issue, I never even suspected anything on the action, and it might not be the action at all, but there are some definite differences. I ended up using a 28 pound spring, and it would still get mis-fires with M118LR. I moved to a 32 pound spring and it seems to work well now. I posted about it here a while back:

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...592#Post2535592

    Like I said my first instincts were to blame myself, I ended up fucking with the firing pin, and ended up re-bushing the firing pin hole on a brand new bolt. Double, triple, quadruple checked headspacing. All trying to find an answer. Blamed the geometry of the Timney, and to be sure there is a difference between the Timney and other aftermarket and factory trigger options.

    I think it just came to a tolerance over-load with the difference in the geometry in the defiance and the timney...

    Like I said above, I wouldn't have even thought of the striker slot as part of the cause of my issue until I read Mike's posts on here.
     

    A10XRIFLE

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    Different Mike,

    Mike Bush does not work for Defiance Anymore

    Mike Lee or Glen Harrison is who you would need to talk to and I guarantee they will get you squared away.
     

    Dagsta

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    DD I think you effed it up screwing with it!!
    laugh.gif
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Different Mike,

    Mike Bush does not work for Defiance Anymore

    Mike Lee or Glen Harrison is who you would need to talk to and I guarantee they will get you squared away.

    </div></div>

    My bad
     

    GasLight

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DD I think you effed it up screwing with it!!
    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    Thanks Dagsta LMAO, it is working now, and it wasn't before I started 'screwing with it'

    If you check my post that I linked, you can see there are two things going on, both triggers have less firing spring compression in the Defiance, and the Timney had less in both actions... it was a double negative for me, and was overcome by a 32 pound spring
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    I'll make an attempt here to be as terse as possible. It's not possible to deliver anything (regardless of whether we're talking about a manufactured product or growing tomatoes) consistently without the ability to grade what it is that you're making.

    In order to know if you're making something (like a receiver, bolt, firing pin, etc.), the exact same every time you make it, you should be able to measure (in the form of metrology) what you've made to ensure that it conforms to an identified set of specs and tolerances (provided that you've actually gone through the trouble of developing drawings, specs, tolerances, etc.), to judge yourself by in the first place.

    I would challenge anyone to find any two (far less than 1700) of what we're discussing here to measure the same twice in a row....but of course, there would have to be a spec to measure it to.

    Speaking to anyone in particular (aforementioned) will not change the fact that metrology doesn't exist within the organization (other than a granite table, a height gauge and a few gauge pin sets, any hobbyists has this stuff) and anything stated by these individuals will not be based on them having the knowledge of what they're measuring....because they're not effectively measuring anything. Instead, assumptions are being made that parts are coming off the machines in a state that they'll be somewhat functional after a lot of hand-work; so how can their information be credible?

    Light strikes have occurred for numerous reasons....

     

    ackleyfan

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, We have used over 1700 Defiance actions and only ever had 3-4 people that had light strikes. We have always used a 28 lb spring as I prefer it. and we use al sorts if triggers.

    My shooting team which is 11 guys shot over 80,000 rounds of ammo last year and they all use Defiance/Templars none had any issues.

    Id look for somthing more specific than just blaming the action.

    Id also Call Glen or Mike at Defiance instead of asking for Internet wisdom. </div></div>

    Are these misfiring issues more trigger and cocking piece related, or spring weight?
    And how were the actions that had light strikes fixed?
    Not looking to find fault with Defiance as I have a Rebel and have nothing but good things to say about it, just curious to know what is the real issues!
     

    slg888

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    Re: Defiance mis-firing. Anyone else had this issue?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Id also Call Glen or Mike at Defiance instead of asking for Internet wisdom. </div></div>Well, that's why there is a section called gunsmithing..... To get help and ask "for Internet Wisdom".

    Defiance acknowledged they've had some issues & sent me a heavier spring, and I still get mis-fires. Same guy built all my rifles and I own 4 different Mfr's actions. The mis-fires only happens with my 2 Defiance actions.

    I was just curious if anyone else had the same issue as mine, obviously I'm not alone. Replacing the spring again & trigger next month...hopefully this will solve my mis-fires.