Dial vs Holdover - does range matter to you?

[supersport939]

Pretty noob to LRS. (other similar threads, but pretty old)
Been getting better at 200yd on my AR with a bare bones reticle on a SFP scope. Looking to do more, and go farther.
Got a...
Brand new Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5CM
Brand new Viper Vortex PST FFP; 5-25x50
All shooting prone with front and rear bags.
Looking to get a solid 100yd zero.
3 shots at 25 to make sure I'm on paper and large corrections. Good to go.
4 shots at 100yd and pretty sure its dialed in.
Mag set to about 8x
3 shots at 100yd and got a 3/4" group - centered in the red. (Scared myself at how accurate this set up is)

I'm determined to learn to use holdover effectively. Its the reason I got a scope with a real reticle for this.
Went out to 200yds.
Mag set to about 11x.
Pre-dope says up 1.6 MOA.
Tried to hold between 1st and 2nd MOA hash to validate the 1.6.
Managed a 5" group. I was hoping for better. (Ok, now as a realist, first time throwing lead downrage with this rig I might be dreaming)

Ok - now here's the question...
Does it make sense to even use holdover for a "small" distance change / short distance? I'm under no time constraint besides what I impose on myself. I've read other old threads here that recommend "holdover always" and I'm trying that, but looking for experince to get better at holdover tricks, or dial util I go out to 300+. Do you have a distance range that you dial for, and beyond that use hold over?
Thanks!

= 100 yds =
Top Left - 4 shots to complete 0
Bottom left - 3 shots for accuracy
= 200 yds =
Center - 5" group
Bottom Right - 2 more at 200 (not bad group for 2 shots, but not accurate)

 

[WY_Chas]

With no time constraints I always dial for elevation.
With time constraints, I normally hold over per my real dope.

 

[theLBC]

i dial if i am shooting the same distance or target multiple times, but i also think it is a good idea to confirm your holdovers for each distance even if that is just so you feel confident while using them.

 

[Steel head]

I hold if I’m in a hurry or practicing for being in a hurry.
Past 1000 I usually dial elevation every time.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Holdover is a good skill to have and to periodically practice. Dialing takes away the brain power required to holdover and lets you concentrate more on other things. As others have mentioned, holdover is good when speed is an issue. Dialing tends to be better for consistency.

 

[Jabot]

For me the shorter the distance the easier it is to hold. This also depends on target size and time constraints. I will say the more u practice the easier it gets . What your reticle looks like will help or hinder this also. Christmas tree articles help me much more. Especially if holding over and for wind at the same time.

 

[MakeSawdust]

It is very situational. Given time and opportunity I dial everything. Wind is typically switchy so I almost always hold wind. If it is steady I will dial wind.

When time is short and multiple larger targets are involved I will hold. If I have time to dial elevation and hold wind then that is how I do it. You can dial very quickly if you practice. There are a few prone trooplines each season where the md will put you in one prone position and make you shoot 5 targets near to far and then come back and shoot them near to far again. 90 second par time and the better shooters can usually complete the stage, even dialing for every target. With a cof that has 2 or 3 targets and multiple positions I will usually dial the close target and hold for the rest. If there is little to no wind I will dial the far target and hold under for the close ones.

Short version, most dial elevation and hold wind unless they are restricted for some reason. There are some situations where it is advantageous to dial wind as well. Holding for everything is not typical unless shooting large targets under tight time constraints. It is not preferred when trying to be as precise as possible.

 

[Dthomas3523]

There are no tricks. It’s dependent on personal preference and factors like time and requirement.

And obviously the more detailed the tree of the reticle, the more accurate and precise you will be.

Other than that, it works just like everything else, use the required/chosen part of the reticle and put bullet where you want.

 

[1moaoff]

Holding over should give you similar groups at the same range. Try that first at 100.

 

[c1utchmatic]

Time would be the biggest determining factor for me. Doesn't hurt to be comfortable with both, though.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

First thought that occurs to me is, why are you using less than half of your magnification when setting/checking zero or using holdover to check dope or experiment with holdover? If I understand what you're trying to do - group size at 200 using holdover, no limit on time and position - I'd set magnification at 25x. With practice, you should learn to call your shots - you'll know if you pulled the reticle off POA the instant you pull the trigger.

If you're new to the discipline and SH, I'd recommend the "Hide Online Training" here. A bargain at $20/month - and a month will probably get you all you want out of it. To access it, click on your username at the top right of your screen (on a real browser; I got no clue what it would look like on a mobile device), click on "Account Upgrades" about halfway down on the right, and select "Supporter."

You've got a great starter rig which is capable of excellent accuracy and will serve you well if you want to get into competition. I'd recommend getting a decent bipod. There are many threads here about them. Sounds like you already have rear bag(s); if I could keep only one of the boxful I have, it would be my full-sized GameChanger.

Easy but expensive bipod button is Atlas. Much less expensive is Harris, but you need to put a PodLok on it at minimum (just search for the terms). Do yourself a favor - avoid the cheap $29.95 crap on Amazon which will break if you sneeze on it, and under no circumstances buy counterfeit/knockoff bipods (or anything else). SH regulars despise counterfeiting thieves.

Welcome aboard!

 

[BikePilot]

Welcome! In Frank's class we practiced both hold overs and dialing. Generally for prone, known distance, with no time pressure he recommended dialing elevation and holding wind. Once we got out past 1k yrds and the wind whipped up we dialed on approximate windage as well so as not to be so far over inside the scope, then held for a bit of wind to fine tune. Seemed to work really well that way. The class is really good and I leaned more in those three days than I probably would have in several years of working at it on my own.

 

[C.R. Adams]

the time constraint course of fire and then the size of the target (i.e. room for error) play a role in what i decide. given the time, i prefer to dial.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Out to 500 yards it is no great trick to hold over and off for wind. You would do well to practice that. Past that I would prefer dialing.

You were right to turn the mag down 8-12x is perfect for that distance. Seeing your own impacts gets hard with more magnification.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Seeing your own impacts gets hard with more magnification.

Are we talking steel, paper, or both? At 200 yards, I guess I can see lower magnification for steel, but paper? I'm usually on board with your advice, but I'm not tracking here....?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Are we talking steel, paper, or both? At 200 yards, I guess I can see lower magnification for steel, but paper? I'm usually on board with your advice, but I'm not tracking here....?

For steel and shooting stuff that moves, where a quick follow up might be necessary.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

For steel and shooting stuff that moves, where a quick follow up might be necessary.

Totally agree. In my first stage of first PRS match, I had my 1st-gen Razor cranked all the way up (20x). Couldn't find targets and shot (at) them out of order when I did find one.

But if OP wants tight holdover (or dialed) groups on paper with no time constraint, higher magnification is appropriate.

 

[supersport939]

Out to 500 yards it is no great trick to hold over and off for wind. You would do well to practice that. Past that I would prefer dialing.

You were right to turn the mag down 8-12x is perfect for that distance. Seeing your own impacts gets hard with more magnification. At 300 yds last week I zoomed all the way up to 25 to sight and back to about 20 to fire.

A video (Ryan Cleckner) said that always having more magnification on your scope is great - but you don't have to use it all for the shot. Zoom in to validate and zoom out to fire.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Holdover is just as accurate as dialing. I prefer to dial when possible. yesterday we shot a match and had two ranges To shoot at but couldn’t adjust the scope. Dialed the first target which was at 550 and had to hold for the other target at 800.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Holdover is just as accurate as dialing. I prefer to dial when possible. yesterday we shot a match and had two ranges To shoot at but couldn’t adjust the scope. Dialed the first target which was at 550 and had to hold for the other target at 800.

This is only true if your tree has the same graduations as your main reticle.

For example, if you have .2 (and thusly .1 between) hash marks on your main windage, but only .5 on your tree.....you won’t be able to consistently hold as fine.

Thus why most trees are a utility.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If holding was as good as dialing, there would be closer to 50% who dial vs hold. Holding just isn’t as good, thus most will dial when possible.

However, the same rules snd fundamentals hold true no matter which you use.

 

[Racer88]

I'm determined to learn to use holdover effectively. Its the reason I got a scope with a real reticle for this.
Went out to 200yds.
Mag set to about 11x.
Pre-dope says up 1.6 MOA.
Tried to hold between 1st and 2nd MOA hash to validate the 1.6.
Managed a 5" group. I was hoping for better.

My guess, if I dare...

Changed magnification and distance, but probably didn't adjust the parallax.

A "newbie" tried to use the blank spot between two subtensions (1.6-MOA) for his POA to attempt a precision group on a paper target at a longer distance. That's not easy to do. That's quite different than holding elevation on steel targets.

So, add that all up, and you get a nearly 2-1/2 MOA group at 200 yards.

My advice... dial your elevation and use the center of the reticle to aim. Focus on your fundamentals... sight picture, breathing, trigger control, recoil management, follow-through, etc. You'll shoot a much tighter group at 200 yards.

PS... I have almost the identical rig.... RPR 6.5-Creedmoor with a Vortex Viper HST (SFP) 6-24X50. It is capable of remarkable performance for a (relatively) economic rig. Did this at 300 yards.

My 14 year old daughter's FIRST EVER group at 200 yards with the RPR (first time shooting any rifle at 200 yards):

 

[_Raining]

I feel like we are missing a data point, did you try to shoot at 200 yards with dialing to 1.5 MOA?

 

[supersport939]

First thought that occurs to me is, why are you using less than half of your magnification when setting/checking zero or using holdover to check dope or experiment with holdover? If I understand what you're trying to do - group size at 200 using holdover, no limit on time and position - I'd set magnification at 25x. With practice, you should learn to call your shots - you'll know if you pulled the reticle off POA the instant you pull the trigger.

If you're new to the discipline and SH, I'd recommend the "Hide Online Training" here. A bargain at $20/month - and a month will probably get you all you want out of it. To access it, click on your username at the top right of your screen (on a real browser; I got no clue what it would look like on a mobile device), click on "Account Upgrades" about halfway down on the right, and select "Supporter."

You've got a great starter rig which is capable of excellent accuracy and will serve you well if you want to get into competition. I'd recommend getting a decent bipod. There are many threads here about them. Sounds like you already have rear bag(s); if I could keep only one of the boxful I have, it would be my full-sized GameChanger.

Easy but expensive bipod button is Atlas. Much less expensive is Harris, but you need to put a PodLok on it at minimum (just search for the terms). Do yourself a favor - avoid the cheap $29.95 crap on Amazon which will break if you sneeze on it, and under no circumstances buy counterfeit/knockoff bipods (or anything else). SH regulars despise counterfeiting thieves.

Welcome aboard!

Going to look into it - thanks!

 

[Dunraven]

Some matches will have a 'no-dial' stage. always makes me wish i had practiced this more.

 

[Ledzep]

I dial elevation every time it's a remotely reasonable option. I never dial wind. I can hold elevation just fine but find it easier to hold wind on the horizontal main bar than out in space. Even with trees/grids.

 

[Aftermath]

First thought that occurs to me is, why are you using less than half of your magnification when setting/checking zero or using holdover to check dope or experiment with holdover?

One reason to use (I'll add roughly) half the mag is that MANY (SFP) scopes use that (roughly) half mag as their ranging power. It would depend on the scope, fersher, but using other than the ranging magnification would result in errors unless you have shot for verification at other zoom powers.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Mix it up.
Get time on task with both skill sets.
With steel at distance, I'll practice both.
On ferals, I pretty much know my scope and fall of my rounds, so will hold over and use the eye-ometer.
Driving pills down range is fun either way.

 

[308pirate]

Holding over should give you similar groups at the same range. Try that first at 100.

No, it shouldn't.

The majority of milliradian scopes have 0.1 mil turret increments and 0.5 mil reticle increments for elevation.

There is no way you can be as consistent when guessing where 2.7 mils up is on the reticle as you can be when you dial 2.7 up and hold the center of the reticle on the center of the target.

No way.

 

[1moaoff]

No, it shouldn't.

The majority of milliradian scopes have 0.1 mil turret increments and 0.5 mil reticle increments for elevation.

There is no way you can be as consistent when guessing where 2.7 mils up is on the reticle as you can be when you dial 2.7 up and hold the center of the reticle on the center of the target.

No way.

I meant that ad a training drill at 100 or 200

Example use the .5 mil up hash if available after dialing .5 down.

Still using the actual measurements and graduations.

OP seemed fairly new to holding and to show the viability of it this works great for newer shooters to learn what is possible.

This teaches dialing, holding, and users getting familiar with their optics.

Hope that clarifies my intent.

ETA, I routinely dial an offset and shoot the correction just to train myself to be comfortable doing it.

I think learning this at close range is the best way for new shooters to learn it. Group size should not increase a crazy amount with the newer reticles.

 

[Newbie2020]

Are you concerned about losing image clarity at high magnification closer to the edge if holding a large amount of elevation? (I’m a poors so I don’t have the greatest glass...)

 

[Steel head]

Hold for my 260 with a bit of wind at 530 yards.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Are you concerned about losing image clarity at high magnification closer to the edge if holding a large amount of elevation? (I’m a poors so I don’t have the greatest glass...)

Just work to the limits of your equipment.
Good glass can make a distinct improvement on your accuracy.

 

[Newbie2020]

Shot a match in December and at 1100 yds with the sun slightly in my face I had trouble distinguishing the gray steel target against the dull gray-brown berm with the magnification turned up to full 20x power. Added a Mark V to my wish list...

 

[NineHotel]

Dial for elevation, hold for wind, and cover your windage knob.

Dialing for wind is a sure fire way to have a miss the next time you get down on the rifle, be it in 2 minutes or 2 days.

Add in learning to hold for elevation under time constraints and progressive target strings with multiple targets.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Shot a match in December and at 1100 yds with the sun slightly in my face I had trouble distinguishing the gray steel target against the dull gray-brown berm with the magnification turned up to full 20x power. Added a Mark V to my wish list...

If only you had a ZCO at that match.....

 

[Dthomas3523]

Dial for elevation, hold for wind, and cover your windage knob.

Dialing for wind is a sure fire way to have a miss the next time you get down on the rifle, be it in 2 minutes or 2 days.

This is a training issue. Not a “for sure way” issue.

 

[NineHotel]

Yes you learn rapidly to either cover the knob or zero the knob when done with a target.

Elevation is static; wind is dynamic in comparison.

 

[supersport939]

After following this for a while and getting some consensus in the gist of the answers, I'm glad I spent the extra coin for the FFP scope. I'm still shooting at relatively short distances but looking to jump into the next 600yd session at my local long distance range. I will try to master dialing - since I am shooting static distances, and then start working in holdover so that I get comfortable with how to find and set the offset without having to think about it to the point of distraction. As said above - its so fun either way.