Can anyone tell me the difference between the Omni VII and Omni VIII tubes (green phosphorus of course)?
Night Vision Difference in Omni VII and Omni VIII tubes?
- Thread starter MarinePMI
- Start date
@MarinePMI Here you go. Omni VII minimum specs are slightly MO BETTA than Omni VIII.
However that does not necessarily mean all Omni VII are better than Omni VIII. Just the minimums are better.
Omni VII has minimum specs 3.0 higher on SN, 200 uA/lm higher on Photocathode Sensitivity, 25,000 higher on Gain and a few others like Halo.
EBI is not posted on this sheet but it was 2.5 for both 7 & 8 IIRC.
Here is a link to the Aussie Guru David that assembled this info.
However that does not necessarily mean all Omni VII are better than Omni VIII. Just the minimums are better.
Omni VII has minimum specs 3.0 higher on SN, 200 uA/lm higher on Photocathode Sensitivity, 25,000 higher on Gain and a few others like Halo.
EBI is not posted on this sheet but it was 2.5 for both 7 & 8 IIRC.
Here is a link to the Aussie Guru David that assembled this info.
| Contract | Omni I | Omni II | Omni III | Omni IV | Omni V | Omni VI | Omni VII | Omni VIII |
| Comments | Early Gen3 - Not all that far above Gen2 of era. | Another early Gen3, again not that advanced. | The first advanced Gen3 with significant improvement is S/N | Significant increase in photocathode performance levels. | Very advanced. See's introduction of Gen4. | Continual improvement of the technology. | Autogated Thin-Film Replaces US specs for Gen4. | Metrics not yet published – Aug 2010 |
| Resolution lp/mm | 36 | 45 | 51 | 64 | 64 | 64 | 64 | 64 |
| S/N | 16.2 | 16.2 | 19 | 21 | 21 | 25 | 28 | 25 |
| Photocathode sensitivity uA/lm@2856K | 1000 | 1000 | 1350 | 1800 | 1800 | 2000 | 2200 | 2000 |
| Sensitivity at uA/lm@830nm | 100 60@880 | 100 | 135 | 190 | 190 | 230@830 100@880 | 120@880 | 190@830 80@880 |
| Gain fL/fc | 20,000-35,000 | 40,000-70,000 | 40,000-70,000 | 40,000-70,000 | 40,000-70,000 | 50,000-80,000 | 50,000-80,000 | 25,000-110,000 |
| [email protected]/mm | 0.83 | 0.83 | 0.9 | 0.92 | 0.92 | 0.92 | 0.92 | Nominal |
| [email protected]/mm | 0.58 | 0.6 | 0.7 | 0.8 | 0.8 | 0.8 | 0.8 | Nominal |
| MTF@15lp/mm | 0.28 | 0.38 | 0.45 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 |
| MTF@25lp/mm | 0.08 | 0.18 | 0.2 | 0.38 | 0.38 | 0.38 | 0.38 | 0.38 |
| Halo (mm) | 1.47 | 1.25 | 1.25 | 0.90 | 0.70 | 1 | ||
| Phosphor | P-20 | P-20 | P-20/P-43 | P-43 | P-43 | P-43 | P-43 | P-43 |
| Year | 1982 | 1985 | 1990 | 1996 | 1999 | 2002 | 2006 | 2010 |
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I think you are somewhat correct in that statement. Basically L3 might have provided some Omni 7 tubes but their film technology never was as good as Harris-Excelis Thin Filmed Pinnacle tubes which supplied the majority of the Omni 7 contract fulfillment.
The Pinnacle thin filmed are supposed to be the best filmed tubes you get, everything else being equal. That's what my research has revealed to me, but I ain't no expert.
Effectively, its likely that the average MILSPEC OMNI VII will be better than an OMNI VIII MILSPEC tube.
keep in mind the L3 now produces unfilmed tubes...
Harris is not producing tubes that really rival L3 at the moment.
keep in mind the L3 now produces unfilmed tubes...
Harris is not producing tubes that really rival L3 at the moment.
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(In the early OMNI VIII days, it is my statement above is true - eventually, L3s tubes got much better and OMNI VIII is generally made so well the they well exceed the minimum contract specs.)
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For what it is worth, I run a bunch of Omni 7 units and what really impresses s me is that I have some pretty powerful LED IR helmet lights that I put 950 nm Pass Filters on to kill absolutely all the visible red glow which is throttling those IR lights way back.
So Gen 3 is supposed to suck at seeing light past 950 nm, yet my units can see the crap out of those lights out to about 300 yards very well. Makes for a very stealthy setup. Hecque, you can use just your helment IR light and a 0.7mW IR Pointer on your LAM, and you are leaving Zero visible signature to a human eye unaided with NV.
So Gen 3 is supposed to suck at seeing light past 950 nm, yet my units can see the crap out of those lights out to about 300 yards very well. Makes for a very stealthy setup. Hecque, you can use just your helment IR light and a 0.7mW IR Pointer on your LAM, and you are leaving Zero visible signature to a human eye unaided with NV.
Maybe not quite there yet, but a buddy of mine just got a set of 2,750 FOM WP PVS 14's with Elbit (Formerly Harris) tubes that are super nice and was priced a lot lower than what L3 filmless are selling for with pretty run of the mill 2000 FOM specs.
So what I am getting at is dollar for dollar Elbit is putting out some thin filmed WP high spec units that will beat a vast majority of the L3 filmless units at a much lower price point.
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Ive got an aviation VII Pinnacle tube that just fantastic.
I’ve also got the INTENS tubes in a Mod3, and they perform very well with respect to over brightness either via illumination or well lit areas.
not quite as good an extremely dark areas, but I have a skeetIR for that.
Then I’ve got stuff I’ve just been screwing around with: XR5 tubes, L3 unfilmed (cathode poisoning in highlight), XD4, etc.
I’ve also got the INTENS tubes in a Mod3, and they perform very well with respect to over brightness either via illumination or well lit areas.
not quite as good an extremely dark areas, but I have a skeetIR for that.
Then I’ve got stuff I’ve just been screwing around with: XR5 tubes, L3 unfilmed (cathode poisoning in highlight), XD4, etc.
Elbit? Is that what Harris is called now?
I’m going to assume that that means it has a high resolution and a decent signal to noise ratio?
The thing about signal to noise ratio with respect to night vision intensifiers is that it is an arbitrary number… Not in decibels…
Is the tube getting over 70 line pairs per millimeter?
I’m going to assume that that means it has a high resolution and a decent signal to noise ratio?
The thing about signal to noise ratio with respect to night vision intensifiers is that it is an arbitrary number… Not in decibels…
Is the tube getting over 70 line pairs per millimeter?
Here are the specs on the Elbit tubes. The EBI was a tad higher than I would like but not by much. This were factory built units with 10 year warranty and lets just say figure $1,000 bucks each less than what most vendors are wanting for current L3 units with FOM's' say from 2000 to 2400.
| Tube 1 Tube 2 PR 2384 2430 Halo 0.71 0.65 EBI 1.45 1.42 RES 76 72 S/N 35.82 37.93 FOM 2,722 2,731 |
These units will be bridged together.
I know of several other pretty high spec tubes that have been coming from Elbit lately. Looks like they fixing to give L3 a run for their money especially to what is available to civilian. Maybe the secret squirrel SOF units are getting some 3,500 to 4,000 FOM unfilmed units from L3, but if that is the case, civies aint seeing those for a long time.
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I know for fact that if you ask for an L3 tube with those kinda specs, they get upset... I did that once and not only did I get a crazy pricing quote, but apparently my math skills were good enough to determine what I should reasonably be able to get... and that made them upset for some reason.
that was maybe 10 years ago... I wanted a signal to noise of 40, and EBI of 1, a halo of .5, a FOM of 2800+... that was going to be for astronomy.
that was maybe 10 years ago... I wanted a signal to noise of 40, and EBI of 1, a halo of .5, a FOM of 2800+... that was going to be for astronomy.
You have 2 x 2700+ tubes from elbit? Holy crap. Is that common amongst new elbit tubes? That's fucking nuts. How much does that run?
No, a buddy of mine got them. He had to wait about 4 months to get those, but got them on a Christmas Special for $3,000 per unit. I haven't had a chance to look through them yet because he lives about 120 miles from me and also this virus thing.
I appears that Elbit's purchase of the Harris line has Elbit working their butts off producing it seems like much better tubes than under the Harris-Excelis Flag.
I guess sometimes it takes some new blood to ramp a former Tier 1 producer back up to that position.
Hmmm...I guess that explains why my relatively new (within past couple months) ITT tube was so clear...I honestly wasn't expecting it to be that good, so was pleasantly surprised.
If you have the Omni 9 specs handy could you please post them. I haven't seen them yet.
Looks like we all better stock up on meat too.
Albiet with NV & Thermal you can get plenty of fresh night meat if times get hard. Maybe Barbecue Dilla & Coon for the 4th Celebrations.
Dilla & Coon ain't too bad if you know how to cook it just right.
See attached photo, with color commentary, from here.
Attachments
Those Omni IX spec sheets floating around and are NOT final, just preliminary if someone see's those. We had meetings with L3 yesterday and the latest numbers for Omni IV are still being worked out. We are in for some treats though with some pretty good baseline numbers.
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Thanks JW, much appreciated.
Vic, so I think you hold a pretty high respect & regard for David. So is David wrong in posting "his community knowledge". ?
All JW did was provide a link to it. I think you are showing some kind of unnecessary confrontational characterization of JW that is totally unwarranted in this situation.
Appreciate you adding that David's numbers are not final however.
If you have a warranted issue with JW, how bout saving it for the appropriate context and time.
Unnecessary Saber Rattling is unbecoming of an Officer & Gentleman.
No offense taken here. Just passing along the specs that have been discussed a bit out in the open for a little bit here. If they’re expected to make big changes to them, no big deal. I’m definitely not privy to any of the behind the curtain stuff that goes down.
Either way, it’s been exciting to hear about civi-available tubes getting better and better lately. If that’s because the gov is holding people to higher standards, I’m all for it.
Either way, it’s been exciting to hear about civi-available tubes getting better and better lately. If that’s because the gov is holding people to higher standards, I’m all for it.
Look at the bottom of the page where Dave discusses 8 vs 9....
My Elbit WP RNVGs are phenomenal, and I would recommend them to anyone looking for new tubes.
Specs of my two tubes
Resolution 81/81
Snr 36.9/37.1
Photocathode 2630/2297
Gain 69517/68687
EBI 1.79/1.5
Halo .72/.72
FOM 2988.9/3005.1
Elbit is killing it lately.
Specs of my two tubes
Resolution 81/81
Snr 36.9/37.1
Photocathode 2630/2297
Gain 69517/68687
EBI 1.79/1.5
Halo .72/.72
FOM 2988.9/3005.1
Elbit is killing it lately.
How much did those cost?
$750 less per tube than what you would pay for an average L3 1701 filmless tube.
Nice dude. 3000 fom is nuts. Wonder if a 3000 fom CO-LR would outperform a KAC refurb unit.
I’m not sure, those refurb units seem very nice and have better glass. If you pick up a Co-lr let me know how you like it. I’ve seen them for decent prices lately and I’m thinking about trying one out. My other tubes right now are some L3 Omni 8 green tubes. While they’re very nice tubes, my new ones wipe the floor with them.
Yes, in a big way. High FOM is the greatest advantage in clip-on sights. Most of the units that were re-furb were in the 1600-2000 from what we know. There could have been a few higher, but from all the samples we looked through were in this ball park.
Vic... any chance your team can install one in a KA, or facilitate the installation of a current high FOM tube in the PVS-30?
When I called TNVC they said they could not.
KAC will do it for you. I have one being sent off. Approx a 2300 fom WP. Will take about 5 months lead time to do though. Tou can keep the tube in it if not broken on removal. I'm interested in seeing the WP but would love to see a ballpark 3k fom unit more !!
KAC will do it for you. I have one being sent off. Approx a 2300 fom WP. Will take about 5 months lead time to do though. Tou can keep the tube in it if not broken on removal. I'm interested in seeing the WP but would love to see a ballpark 3k fom unit more !!
Yea, a LOT is involved with doing work on a clip-on and very specialized equipment to bore-sight align the glass to insure the light path is perfect which results in KAC's gurrantee 1/2 MOA bore sight error along with speicalized tools to crack open their housings. Definitely let the OEM do this work...
From what I understand there are some home brewers that work on the armasight stuff. I’ve read positive reviews about the co-lr but haven’t pulled the trigger because obviously going with armasight over kac seems scary. But at 3000 fom, yikes. I might start seeing into another dimension. If someone pulls it off, post a review. Might push me over that side of the fence.
Do you have any 3000 fom clip ons by any chance in stock?
Figure Of Merit. It is arrived at via multiplying the a intensifier tubes Line Pair (LP) x Signal To Noise (SN) numbers. For example a tube with specifications stating a LP 72 and a SN 32 has a FOM 2,304. The FOM is the 1st parameter to look at. It is the quick view of how good a tube may be. However, IMHO the EBI (Electronic Background Input) is one of the very important specs if you want a unit that performs well in rural very dark areas. On EBI, the lower the number the better.
