Dillon 650 question on powder charge volume

[dave300]

Brand new to the Dillon 650 and finally got to loading 223 ammo this weekend. Just to be sure I would occasionally pull one of the charged rounds and measure the powder charge.
This is my question, I ran about 5 rounds to set the charge at 23.5 grains of TAC. After I had ran about 10 rounds I checked again and was actually down to about 23.2 then another 10 rounds and after spot checking, I was back up to my target weight, then it jumped around from 23.8 down to 23.2 over the next several checks I made.
Is this to be expected in a volumetric type powder dump? Is it the TAC powders physical composition not allowing accurate measuring? Or is there something that I am missing?
I used my charge master to measure charge weight, of course after calibrating and even threw an occasional 55gr bullet on the scale to double check the charge master and all is ok.
The adjustment screw on the back of the charge bar appears fully functional, in that it is snug and not able to move. The charge bar is moving the full range as shown in the directions.

Suggestions/thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Donr13]

Check the linkage on the powder measure is adjusted per Dillon specs. I have loaded TAC and other small ball powders and it was pretty accurate with the spot checking I did, also used a chargemaster.

 

[308boltgun]

Yes they will bounce around.
The trick is to be as consistent as you can with your operation of the press

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[dave300]

The first place I looked was to the linkage, and called it a night saturday night as I was getting frustrated. Got up early and tore it apart and re adjusted and it was the same variation, although I did do a slight bit of alignment of the fail safe linkage (I think its called) and it cycled a bit smoother, but still no help in the consistency department.
Maybe you can help me out on this? The square plastic washer is shown to move toward the rear of the powder measure housing in operation (to which Im set there) and this allows the measurer to sit on the top of the case, I understand that. My question is, do I put a bit more adjustment to the rear on the die to fit a bit "snug" on the case. I feel as I am where I need to be as I dont see any spillage etc?

Check the linkage on the powder measure is adjusted per Dillon specs. I have loaded TAC and other small ball powders and it was pretty accurate with the spot checking I did, also used a chargemaster.

 

[dave300]

Thanks, I feel like Ive done all I can do. The press is on a strong mount and is stable, and yes I can be a bit more "consistent" on the handle operation.
I really only ask the question based off of several times I read that some reload precision ammo of their 650's. Maybe with a different powder, but again I dont see how it can be with a volumetric reloader unless they are pulling the rounds off line and trickling in or removing powder, then whats the point of a progressive.
Im very satisfied with the reloader, but didnt want to leave anything on the table needlessly as far as more accurate metering.
Thanks.

Yes they will bounce around.
The trick is to be as consistent as you can with your operation of the press

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[ZombieMonkey]

That's way too much variation, especially with TAC. I've never seen anything more than .2's of a grain. Over the countless loads of TAC I've checked through the Dillon most are spot on or within +/- 0.1gr. TAC has always metered for me very well in the past on a Hornady setup and has been just as consistent on the 650.

The linkage would be my guess. On a new powder measure I clean the internals of the slide bar and housing with isopropyl alcohol to keep things from sticking. The powder measure is very consistent as long as it is operating smoothly. Having that rod tweaked or improperly adjusted can cause issues with the charge weights fluctuating as can the slide bar not moving freely/smoothly due to powder/debris/residue accumulating within the powder bar housing.

Btw, what scale are you testing these charges on? A good known scale? Electronic or balance?

 

[memo43]

I second the cosistant operation of the handle, to ensure accuracy.
I replaced the linkage and added two springs wrapped around the base of the dispensor to the powder bar, giving me the flexiblity of where to place the dispensor
I know you mentioned it was a brand new system, but have you wiped it down to make sure its free of any oils or residue

 

[gimpy]

I say make sure there isn't any static electricity build-up. TAC is so fine it will stick inside the slide if there is any static.

 

[dave300]

memo43 and gimpy, it was not wiped down and yes I noticed a bit of static electricity. Any suggestions as to what you use to wipe it down with and what specifically, the charge bar internal workings I would presume?
memo, can you send post or send me a photo or two of your alteration, Ill pm you my email?

 

[Kirkd]

I haven't used tac powder. But my experience is that some powders meter well and some don't. For 223, I have found that H322. H335, and CFE223 meter extremely well. Varget not so much


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[Recreational Shooter WA]

That is way too much variation. Like someone mentioned, you should be around +/- .2 grains in weights. Even Varget stays around +/- 0.3 grains.

 

[memo43]

Il take pictures of both the spring set up as well as the powder bar
For static I use a folded up dryer sheet held on with a rubber band, while leaving enough space to see the powder level.
Or anti static spray prior to adding any powder in the hopper

 

[samnev]

I have never had any luck with consistent powder drops with any of Dillon's powder measures. They are fine for bulk reloading but when it comes to more precise powder drops I use the Chargemaster then continue on the Dillon.

 

[OF&B]

I really only ask the question based off of several times I read that some reload precision ammo of their 650's. Maybe with a different powder, but again I dont see how it can be with a volumetric reloader unless they are pulling the rounds off line and trickling in or removing powder, then whats the point of a progressive.
Im very satisfied with the reloader, but didnt want to leave anything on the table needlessly as far as more accurate metering.
Thanks.

I load precision ammo on the 650, and you can too. I also load high volume stuff, but the process is different.

The more precision it becomes, the less like pistol ammo the process is. For real precision stuff, I only take advantage of the 650 features to size and trim the cases. The cases are primed and charged off the press and only the seating die is used for the last step.

With the bulk ammo, primed and charged in the press, it still goes though the machine twice. I assume you've learned the tricks to get volumetric powder measures to meter more evenly like tapping on the reservoir with a wrench to get the powder to settle before you start throwing charges and throwing 10-20 before you start measuring. The progressive press does complicate things because of all the movement going on. Some powders are worse than others. The Uniquetek powder measure micrometer kit is worth it just for the sanity it saves. It also removes some backlash from the bar which helps get rid of those pfm shifts in powder charges.

 

[eshorebwhntr]

my experience has been the same as others noted here. Varget has had the most variation of the powders I've used. Win748 was great. Checked first 100 charges once stuff was set and had 82 dead on with only +-0.1gr on the other 18. I was pretty happy with that. I've had no experience with the TAC lines.

 

[EddieNFL]

Load TAC on a 550, identical measure. Don't recall ever having a spread more than 0.2. I cycle a couple dozen charges before I start loading. Use the 650 for .45ACP. WST, 231, 452AA, Autocomp, N320 and a few others over the years all drop under a 0.2 spread.

 

[dave300]

From reading all the replies, I am left to feel in general this is what I am gonna get. I will prolly try Uniquetek or similar bar to see if I can in fact "tighten" things up relative to spread.

I load precision ammo on the 650, and you can too. I also load high volume stuff, but the process is different.

The more precision it becomes, the less like pistol ammo the process is. For real precision stuff, I only take advantage of the 650 features to size and trim the cases. The cases are primed and charged off the press and only the seating die is used for the last step.

With the bulk ammo, primed and charged in the press, it still goes though the machine twice. I assume you've learned the tricks to get volumetric powder measures to meter more evenly like tapping on the reservoir with a wrench to get the powder to settle before you start throwing charges and throwing 10-20 before you start measuring. The progressive press does complicate things because of all the movement going on. Some powders are worse than others. The Uniquetek powder measure micrometer kit is worth it just for the sanity it saves. It also removes some backlash from the bar which helps get rid of those pfm shifts in powder charges.

 

[memo43]

Don't give up on it just yet, it's so easy to try and fix one issue by trying to replace it. Allow the "machine" to break in, learn it love it an then try to make it better.
Have you gone out to test the batch of amo it's making already.
If all else fails then try the upgrade.
Progressives are a thing of beauty only because they do so much at one time, vice a single stage

 

[rg1911]

Have you asked Dillon tech support for help? I usually have a positive experience when I call them.

I bulk load .223 using H335 with minimal, if any, spread, based on spot checks. These loads have been consistently lethal on prairie rats out to 420 yards. I also used to load 30-06 and .308 with IMR4895 when I was still able to do highpower competition. Those are just three of the ten or so cartridges I reload on my Dillon 650. Consistency has been more than adequate with the right powders. I can't get even my Harrell's measure to be really consistent with the larger-granule powders.

I will admit that when I'm trying to be really spot on with a rifle that is known to be 1/2 MOA or better, I use my Harrell's measure and weigh each charge on an RCBS 10-10 scale.

Richard

 

[Headquarterz]

I guess the easiest way to explain what I'm writing about is via a photo.
Tighten 1 up enough so that 2 is pulled down far enough to avoid contact with 3 when raising the press handle. It should be a fluid motion with the linkage and powder lock out. If 1 is too loose things tend to bounce around and that will disrupt your consistence within the charge bar. Hope that makes sense.

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[dave300]

I like the photo, great way to make it easy. I will certainly check the 1, 2, 3 and 4 areas and watch operation and report back.
Thanks

I guess the easiest way to explain what I'm writing about is via a photo.
Tighten 1 up enough so that 2 is pulled down far enough to avoid contact with 3 when raising the press handle. It should be a fluid motion with the linkage and powder lock out. If 1 is too loose things tend to bounce around and that will disrupt your consistence within the charge bar. Hope that makes sense.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[dave300]

I thought about calling them, then I decided to post on here and still may give a call and ask for advice. Thanks and I too have had good experience with them the few times I did talk with them.

Have you asked Dillon tech support for help? I usually have a positive experience when I call them.

I bulk load .223 using H335 with minimal, if any, spread, based on spot checks. These loads have been consistently lethal on prairie rats out to 420 yards. I also used to load 30-06 and .308 with IMR4895 when I was still able to do highpower competition. Those are just three of the ten or so cartridges I reload on my Dillon 650. Consistency has been more than adequate with the right powders. I can't get even my Harrell's measure to be really consistent with the larger-granule powders.

I will admit that when I'm trying to be really spot on with a rifle that is known to be 1/2 MOA or better, I use my Harrell's measure and weigh each charge on an RCBS 10-10 scale.

Richard

 

[Boxerglocker]

Before you do anything, check if your power funnel is clean inside and not bridging. Secondly, check the adjustment of your fail safe rod. With a primed case in station 2 and the handle full forward the spring should be compressed almost completely. I use a credit card between a couple coils and snug down the wing nut.

 

[leadbullet]

you are droping a lot of powder through a 22 cal hole, I found the same problem using the same powder as you with a dillon 1050, the easy fix is to slow down just a hair to give all the powder time to go in the case. simply pull the handle down count to 3 and lift, repeat.
hope this helps.
cheers.