I use the RCBS (full length die and seating die) green box dies for .308. I'm not getting the best consistency in accuracy, using winchester brass, CCI BR primer, 43.0g Varget and 175 SMK, COAL 2.80. Overall length varies slightly but I assume this is from the meplats varying in length. I am uniforming primer pockets, inside and outside chamfer and de-burring flash hole. Looking at getting the redding neck sizing die and match seating die, will this help? Where am I going wrong?
- Thread starter ronburgundy
- Start date
By considering a Neck Sizing die. No point in this, and you'll inevitably run into problems with N/S dies. The F/L dies are fine, but you may what to augment them with a good case gage, bump gage, whatever, so long as you have some means of accurately setting your shoulders back to the correct point. In the case of a bolt gun (you didn't specify here), a mere .001" or .002" is just fine. Anything more than this, and you'll start stretching cases. If you're loading fro an autoloader, you'll want .003" - .004" or so to assure proper function and chambering. I like the match seaters (Redding or Forster, both are excellent; the Forsters cost about half as much) and use the religiously. You'll want some means of measuring run-out to verify that you're getting what you're after here. And don't be surprised if you find very good results with the standard seating die, either. If they're well made, and set up correctly, they can do a very fine job.
You might consider Full Length bushing dies, and I'd consider this a step in the right direction. Getting rid of the drag caused by the expander ball, with all of the associated concentricity issues that can result, is a real benefit. This will also minimize the amount of work hardening you're subjecting the brass to, and will allow you to experiment with varying neck tensions. Lots of room for improvement there.
You might consider Full Length bushing dies, and I'd consider this a step in the right direction. Getting rid of the drag caused by the expander ball, with all of the associated concentricity issues that can result, is a real benefit. This will also minimize the amount of work hardening you're subjecting the brass to, and will allow you to experiment with varying neck tensions. Lots of room for improvement there.
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Forgot to mention, loading for a remington 700, thanks for the reply. I thought the neck sizing die would adjust neck tension. I will do some research on the full length bushing dies as I was not aware of them. I've only been reloading about 8 months, I have a lot to learn
No, the standard N/S die will do just that; size the neck. And like the conventional F/L dies, they'll work the brass far more than they need to, simply because they have to so they can accommodate all different neck thicknesses out there. The Bushing dies allow you to give the cases precisely the right amount of tension, without working them more than you need to. They're available in either standard F/L or N/S configurations, but I'll ALWAYS recommend the F/L route. As I said, no advantage to the N/S approach, and eventually you WILL run into problems caused by strictly Neck Sizing.
No problem, either. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
No problem, either. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
I suggest a Lee Collet Neck sizing die and a Forster Match seater. FL size when necessary (when bolt resistance on closing becomes stiff) with a Forster body die. That combo will give you the most consistency, best brass life and best value for the dollar. JMHO
Nobody addressed the other part of your question, accuracy. In order of importance; 1. The rifle has to like the bullet you're feeding it. Try other bullets. 2. The seating depth has to be right. 3. Then play with the powder charge.
Also I strongly recommend FL sizing every time. Once brass gets tight it has work hardened and has formed a memory in that position. I do like FL bushing dies. To determine the bushing diameter needed measure a loaded round. Order a bushing .004" smaller.
I would run an OCW first.
Sweet spot for Varget and 175 SMK is around 43.5 grains typically.
Then play with seating depth. My 700 likesm the as long as I can fit into the mag (Manners Mini Chassis). In fact, with my current seating depth, some will not fit in the mag due to meplat differences, but are correct based on ogive length. I just single feed these.
Sweet spot for Varget and 175 SMK is around 43.5 grains typically.
Then play with seating depth. My 700 likesm the as long as I can fit into the mag (Manners Mini Chassis). In fact, with my current seating depth, some will not fit in the mag due to meplat differences, but are correct based on ogive length. I just single feed these.
"Where am I going wrong?"
I agree with Pinecone, I doubt you've found a good load yet.
Doesn't matter a lot how precise we construct a load, if the rifle doesnt like it the results will be precisely poor and you could swap dies forever with no change in results. Bad dies happen but they are quite rare and varying OAL isn't caused by the dies or press.
I agree with Pinecone, I doubt you've found a good load yet.
Doesn't matter a lot how precise we construct a load, if the rifle doesnt like it the results will be precisely poor and you could swap dies forever with no change in results. Bad dies happen but they are quite rare and varying OAL isn't caused by the dies or press.
I've only just got all the components I need for reloading (thanks to the shortage), but I read in my hornady manual that neck sizing is better than FL sizing, it made sense but what are full length bushing dies? Also about removing the ball expander, I'm using a Hornady lock-n-load with an elliptical expander, should I still remove that from a FL sizing die? Or buy the Hornady neck sizing die? Or a FL bushing die?
Thanks for the help, I didn't want to start a new thread on almost the same topic.
Bushmaster11,
I can pretty well assure you that the passage in the Hornady manual touting N/S was written decades ago, and simply hasn't been reviewed or updated. No, go with the F/F sizing and save yourself some troubles. You will have a hard time finding any competitive shooters still using the N/S approach, and I'm not aware of any of the other bullet makers using N/S in their own in-house accuracy testing for their own bullets. Rather doubt that Hornady does anymore, either.
The F/L bushing dies are exactly what the name implies; dies that F/L resize the enitire case body, but have the additional benefit of being cut to take a bushing to allow you to properly size that area of the case. Think of it this way, the standard die (non-bushing, neck OR full length) has to be able to size ANY case you run through it. And there's the problem. Cases vary considerably from one case manufacturer to another in terms of neck wall thicknesses. The only way they can accomodate them all (yes, the "one size fits all" approach) is to drastically oversize the O.D. of the case neck, to assure that even the thinest case necks will be adequately sized. This means that the thicker cases are being worked far more than they need to be, which will result in work hardened brass, neck cracking and very short case life. Part of this is due to the fact that the only way that they can control the degree of neck tension with these dies, is by using an expander ball to fix the I.D. of the resized cases. Expander balls can add all sorts of evil problems to the resized cases, including excessive work hardening, pulling (drawing,actually) the necks off center, and inducing some really ugly run-out problems in the finished ammo. The addition of a bushing eliminates these problems, by allowing the handloader to select the appropriate size bushing for his particular brass. The sizing being done is reduced, resulting in less work hardening by not overworking the brass. You can also gain more control over your neck tension by selecting a smaller bushing (they're available in .001" increments) and eliminating the expander ball altogether. No need for it, depending on the uniformity of your brass, and your wilingness not to try using "mixed" lost of brass in the same reloading session. Bad form, anyway.
For what it's worth, I DO use an expander for much of my reloading, as I want to ensure that the neck perfectly uniform throughout some large lots of brass. However, by selecting the appropriate bushing size, I can get it to where you can barely fell the slightest kiss when the expander passes though the neck. I use Redding's carbide expander, but the eliptical design is also good. Either way, it's the selection of the proper sized bushing that's really making the difference here.
Bottom line, again, is that there's no reason to mess with N/S dies, so long as you're doing the F/L approach properly. And I promise you, if you stick with neck sizing and shoot enough, you'll run into some major problems down the road. Murphy always seems to make sure that they truly do appear at the worst possible moment. F/L size, and avoid them altogether.
I can pretty well assure you that the passage in the Hornady manual touting N/S was written decades ago, and simply hasn't been reviewed or updated. No, go with the F/F sizing and save yourself some troubles. You will have a hard time finding any competitive shooters still using the N/S approach, and I'm not aware of any of the other bullet makers using N/S in their own in-house accuracy testing for their own bullets. Rather doubt that Hornady does anymore, either.
The F/L bushing dies are exactly what the name implies; dies that F/L resize the enitire case body, but have the additional benefit of being cut to take a bushing to allow you to properly size that area of the case. Think of it this way, the standard die (non-bushing, neck OR full length) has to be able to size ANY case you run through it. And there's the problem. Cases vary considerably from one case manufacturer to another in terms of neck wall thicknesses. The only way they can accomodate them all (yes, the "one size fits all" approach) is to drastically oversize the O.D. of the case neck, to assure that even the thinest case necks will be adequately sized. This means that the thicker cases are being worked far more than they need to be, which will result in work hardened brass, neck cracking and very short case life. Part of this is due to the fact that the only way that they can control the degree of neck tension with these dies, is by using an expander ball to fix the I.D. of the resized cases. Expander balls can add all sorts of evil problems to the resized cases, including excessive work hardening, pulling (drawing,actually) the necks off center, and inducing some really ugly run-out problems in the finished ammo. The addition of a bushing eliminates these problems, by allowing the handloader to select the appropriate size bushing for his particular brass. The sizing being done is reduced, resulting in less work hardening by not overworking the brass. You can also gain more control over your neck tension by selecting a smaller bushing (they're available in .001" increments) and eliminating the expander ball altogether. No need for it, depending on the uniformity of your brass, and your wilingness not to try using "mixed" lost of brass in the same reloading session. Bad form, anyway.
For what it's worth, I DO use an expander for much of my reloading, as I want to ensure that the neck perfectly uniform throughout some large lots of brass. However, by selecting the appropriate bushing size, I can get it to where you can barely fell the slightest kiss when the expander passes though the neck. I use Redding's carbide expander, but the eliptical design is also good. Either way, it's the selection of the proper sized bushing that's really making the difference here.
Bottom line, again, is that there's no reason to mess with N/S dies, so long as you're doing the F/L approach properly. And I promise you, if you stick with neck sizing and shoot enough, you'll run into some major problems down the road. Murphy always seems to make sure that they truly do appear at the worst possible moment. F/L size, and avoid them altogether.
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