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Gunsmithing Do you fuss over headspace?

serevince

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Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 20, 2011
131
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Spokane
Concept is simple. There are a couple thou of leeway in a properly headspaced rifle. Do you play with it all?

First rifle I did I stressed that I got it dialed to the tightest end of the range. Zero effort close on the GO, and max interference on the NOGO.

Latest rifle closed on the GO, won't close on the NOGO, done.


According to the gauges I am well within spec. Am I leaving anything on the table by not trying for every last decimal of distance? I know excessive headspace can shorten brass life(understanding true out of spec headspace can be catastrophic). Again technically this is not excessive.

Thanks
 
Don't sweat it. The bolt should go down just a little on the no go and then stop.
 
I wouldn’t say I sweat it, but I prefer it to be minimum. Some virgin brass starts out well below “go”, so it’s first ride in a fat chamber it gets a lot of expansion. After that you can control it through your sizing of course.
 
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Negligible since the tolerance between go and no go is already a tight tolerance. Closing on a no go but not a field would be noticeable.
 
Negligible since the tolerance between go and no go is already a tight tolerance. Closing on a no go but not a field would be noticeable.


You can approach that same large tolerance (between go and field) with a chamber that’s on the big side but still in spec. For example my batch of Lapua creedmoor is .004 under go. Fire that in a go + .004, and that’s quite a bit. No issue if it’s hornady and it’ll shit the primer pocket in 5 firings. I’ll go 20+ Firings easy with the Lapua if I’m nice to it.
 
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Concept is simple. There are a couple thou of leeway in a properly headspaced rifle. Do you play with it all?

First rifle I did I stressed that I got it dialed to the tightest end of the range. Zero effort close on the GO, and max interference on the NOGO.

Latest rifle closed on the GO, won't close on the NOGO, done.


According to the gauges I am well within spec. Am I leaving anything on the table by not trying for every last decimal of distance? I know excessive headspace can shorten brass life(understanding true out of spec headspace can be catastrophic). Again technically this is not excessive.

Thanks
It's either within tolerance or it's not. Once set, it won't change so I don't give a shit about it.
 
Could you size a piece of brass and try that as a go gauge also ? It would seem if the bolt closed nicely on the go and on the sized brass it would be perfect ?
 
I've chambered barrels on a handful of pieces of new brass. The Go/No-Go threshold can feel a bit "squishy" depending on how the new brass fits in a fresh chamber but if the bolt closes easily on a piece of brass with a very slight drag then it'll go bang when it's loaded up.
 
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The only issue I have run into with setting up with minimum headspace is on a savage 243win if you want to call it an issue.
Set up to were the bolt would just close on a go guage without restistence I found it was tight to close with some resistance on Nosler factory rounds and no others.
The Noslers still shot great but I was at the edge of tolerances and with a dirty chamber they might have been problematic.
 
Could you size a piece of brass and try that as a go gauge also ? It would seem if the bolt closed nicely on the go and on the sized brass it would be perfect ?

Unsized new brass not sized brass.
 
Stop overthinking this

People obsess over a ton of minutia when it comes to rifles, chambers. throats, brass, projectiles, etc. Strictly academic curiosity for me.

If it takes me 5 min to head space a rifle "good enough" or 15 min to get it "optimal". Do I reap any long term benefits?
 
People obsess over a ton of minutia when it comes to rifles, chambers. throats, brass, projectiles, etc. Strictly academic curiosity for me.

If it takes me 5 min to head space a rifle "good enough" or 15 min to get it "optimal". Do I reap any long term benefits?
I'd keep doing what you are doing, or, being as though you are in a position to do so, run your own tests, make your own decision.
Firing new undersize brass in over length chambers is a recipe for false pressure signs, extremely flat primers, and maybe an ejector mark from slamming back into the bolt face. I prefer my brass to only grow .004" on the first firing, not .006-007".
 
Unsized new brass not sized brass.
Your right you couldn't use new brass or factory loaded ammo to head space . I would guess most guys chambering have a collection of fired brass in various calibers or know someone shooting a odd caliber to size before hand.
 
People obsess over a ton of minutia when it comes to rifles, chambers. throats, brass, projectiles, etc. Strictly academic curiosity for me.

If it takes me 5 min to head space a rifle "good enough" or 15 min to get it "optimal". Do I reap any long term benefits?
Test it and let us know
 
Anymore I screw the FL sizing die all the way down until it bottoms out hard on the shell holder, resize a fired case (even if it's not from my rifle), then use that as a headspace gauge an either shouldered barloc barrels or Savage prefits.

I reload everything for these guns so I don't really care about factory ammo. Even so, in most cases it still fits (sometimes a little tight). Anyway, it makes setting up the dies easy and I get consistent resizing with .0005-.001" bump with no real effort.
 
So you’re basically making your own headspace gauge based on the actual sizing die you use?

That is a very neat idea IMO
 
As mentioned before.
Reay the only reason people get picky on headspace is for the "precision" shooters who don't handload and want little case growth on their chosen factory ammo.
They only other I can think of would be someone who wants all the case volume they can get out of a certain case. For example if you are in a class that only allows a single spicific cartridge. People seem to believe they will benefit buy reloading cases blown out to max chamber specs.

I personally think both are foolish and simple makes no sense.

I can understand why someone shooting a belted mag would want a spicific chamber cut. My 300 Winchester shows a big difference between new factory brass and fired brass. My groupin also reflects a difference. I do have more development that can be done tho.

When I set my barrels I shoot for min chamber specs if I feel it will see alot of factory ammo.
But really it's not a problem because I reload for each rifle and keep brass separate.

I do also see alot of what was mentioned here in regards to setting the barrel to brass that was sized in a bottomed out full length die the owner will be using. But any manufacturer would consider that a small chamber. I would be hesitant on selling a rifle I set that way.
 
I chamber till the gauge closes with a piece of .002” shim between the go gauge and bolt face with the action hand tight. Once torqued down the go gauge fits and the nogo is a dead stop. Works for me.
Tony
 
Reay the only reason people get picky on headspace is for the "precision" shooters who don't handload and want little case growth on their chosen factory ammo.
Wrong. Non-reloaders want and need max headspace so that their rifle works reliably with any factory ammo. Non-reloaders don't give a shit about the growth of cases they will throw in the trash

When I set my barrels I shoot for min chamber specs if I feel it will see alot of factory ammo.
I bet you enjoy pounding the bolt open and shut as well
 
HS is often quite over stated in its absolute importance. SAAMI gives a pretty wide berth with these values because they can. If you shooting in the "fire and forget" community where you only run commercially loaded ammuntion, then you are risking very, very little. Almost nothing. In fact, too tight of HS will cause BIG accuracy problems. Proven this a bunch of times.

.0005" and on up to .006" won't make a gun shoot better or worse. It will however potentially cost you some money and aggravation if you fail to understand what can happen if you don't address it.

If you are "white sheeting" a particular job, then you have an advantage. You can set your brass up very easily a couple ways. the easiest is to just fire form it with the bullet seated intentionally long so that the case head is against the bolt face when the bullet is jammed into the lands of the barrel's chamber. If you have a plunger ejector, removing it works to your advantage in this instance. This way the case is truly pushed against the bolt.

The other way is a false shoulder. Neck it up, then squish it back down, but leave a small ring of the larger neck. This will "pinch" the case between the bolt face and the neck/shoulder junction of the chamber. More work, but your able to seat bullets at the desired COAL this way. You'll have it right when you feel a light pinch on the bolt as you roll it into battery.

What this does:

Brass moves around when its fired. We know this. When the striker hits the primer, it wants to push the case forward in the chamber. One of 4 things stops that.

1. Case body taper
2. Case shoulder contacting chamber shoulder
3. Bullet engaging the lands of the throat
4. Case belt contacts the machined ring in the chamber

When any of these take place the case stops moving forward. Ignition immediately follows and the fire gets lit. As pressure comes up the case body swells like a balloon until the chamber walls and bolt face stops it. Then the bullet is coughed down the hole.

The issue that'll give you fits arises when the case is scooted forward inside the chamber. The surface area of the case body latches onto the chamber wall. Quite dramatically. The friction it creates locks it into place because a pressure vessel exerts itself at a right angle to whatever its contacting. If the gap between bolt face and case body exists, the case will stretch itself as that portion becomes the path of least resistance. Brass with only maybe .04" of wall thickness won't stand up to the tens of thousands of pounds of pressure created inside a modern high performance cartridge case. This condition always makes the web of the case thinner in its cross section.

Now resize your brass and don't pay attention. Take it back to SAAMI length vs what your chamber is. Now you fire again and the web gets even thinner. Do this more than 3 or 4 times and the cases pop apart. Case head separation...

You can do this regardless of where HS is set if you don't pay attention to what you are doing at the reloading bench. Stick with the two suggested practices lined out in the beginning of this and it'll go away. Ensure you setup your sizer die correctly as well otherwise you put yourself right back in the same spot.

So there's that part of this. Now, the fun shit: The complication can really start when you have a barrel that tanks and your sitting on a big ol pile of hand made ammo already loaded up. 2x when another shop fitted the first barrel but now you are taking your work someplace else. Getting the HS the same is tougher than most seem to realize. Reamers can be made very differently and still live well inside published SAAMI guidelines. If my "6mm Wiz Bang" has a radius callout of .02" at the neck/shoulder but your brass was fired in a chamber cut with a .04" we will be chasing HS issues. Now cascade this to the rest of the features/transitions:

*body/shoulder
*shoulder/neck intersections
*body OD at the web
*throat
*FB, etc...

SAAMI is only a moderator of sorts. They are not the police. Tooling companies can do whatever they want and as we know, some are far better at this than others. Thinking you can do it "by feel" is also plagued with issues. Least it was when I told myself I could do it. (I can't and gave up trying to force it a long time ago)

The better path out of this is to save up a few more dollars and have a few barrels fitted simultaneously. You are at far better odds of being able to truly swap and go. I do this for a lot of "gamer gun" guys in the spring. We'd hang 6-8 sticks a season for Jake Vibbert alone.


Hope this helps.

C.
 
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Remove extractor and cocking piece. With a go gauge or quality case unfired, drop the bolt body down on the gauge and with a cleaning rod from the muzzle and a piece of cold rolled wire, run it through the firing pin hole and push back and forth for movement. That is the redneck way without tools to measure with. If I was doing a build with my limited skill on a short chambered new barrel, I would, of course, like to have all the gauges and mic down to the bolt face after I squared up the action and lapped the lugs in. I have done a few Mauser redneck builds without any gauges but only with short chambered barrels. PS, I have very limited knowledge on the subject but my two mausers shoot well and have no headspace problems.
 
Interesting. I just did my first barrel swap (.308 to 6.5 cm) so this was new to me. I used Manson go and no-go gauges on my first attempt and was ending up w/ Hornady factory loads stretching .006” when fired. I was not happy with this so after speaking w/ Criterion who made my barrel and then JGS whom they recommended. Both agreed I was on the high side. I bought a JGS go gauge and used a piece of scotch tape (.002”) on the back of it for no-go. (This tape method had been suggested by Mr. Manson but I ignored it, in favor of a no-go gauge?).....

Now my the factory loads I was using for break-in and the new Alpha brass are growing .003 on first firing. I am pretty happy with that.

Since this was new territory for me I was using an abundance of caution. My thinking also was, that my initial firings with new alpha brass will be closer to what the fired brass will be i.e. -.001 to -.002”

Did I overthink this? I don’t really know.......?

7DCEA67D-3F5C-46BD-AF78-619227A20233.jpeg
 
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HS is often quite over stated in its absolute importance. SAAMI gives a pretty wide berth with these values because they can. If you shooting in the "fire and forget" community where you only run commercially loaded ammuntion, then you are risking very, very little. Almost nothing. In fact, too tight of HS will cause BIG accuracy problems. Proven this a bunch of times.

.0005" and on up to .006" won't make a gun shoot better or worse. It will however potentially cost you some money and aggravation if you fail to understand what can happen if you don't address it.

If you are "white sheeting" a particular job, then you have an advantage. You can set your brass up very easily a couple ways. the easiest is to just fire form it with the bullet seated intentionally long so that the case head is against the bolt face when the bullet is jammed into the lands of the barrel's chamber. If you have a plunger ejector, removing it works to your advantage in this instance. This way the case is truly pushed against the bolt.

The other way is a false shoulder. Neck it up, then squish it back down, but leave a small ring of the larger neck. This will "pinch" the case between the bolt face and the neck/shoulder junction of the chamber. More work, but your able to seat bullets at the desired COAL this way. You'll have it right when you feel a light pinch on the bolt as you roll it into battery.

What this does:

Brass moves around when its fired. We know this. When the striker hits the primer, it wants to push the case forward in the chamber. One of 4 things stops that.

1. Case body taper
2. Case shoulder contacting chamber shoulder
3. Bullet engaging the lands of the throat
4. Case belt contacts the machined ring in the chamber

When any of these take place the case stops moving forward. Ignition immediately follows and the fire gets lit. As pressure comes up the case body swells like a balloon until the chamber walls and bolt face stops it. Then the bullet is coughed down the hole.

The issue that'll give you fits arises when the case is scooted forward inside the chamber. The surface area of the case body latches onto the chamber wall. Quite dramatically. The friction it creates locks it into place because a pressure vessel exerts itself at a right angle to whatever its contacting. If the gap between bolt face and case body exists, the case will stretch itself as that portion becomes the path of least resistance. Brass with only maybe .04" of wall thickness won't stand up to the tens of thousands of pounds of pressure created inside a modern high performance cartridge case. This condition always makes the web of the case thinner in its cross section.

Now resize your brass and don't pay attention. Take it back to SAAMI length vs what your chamber is. Now you fire again and the web gets even thinner. Do this more than 3 or 4 times and the cases pop apart. Case head separation...

You can do this regardless of where HS is set if you don't pay attention to what you are doing at the reloading bench. Stick with the two suggested practices lined out in the beginning of this and it'll go away. Ensure you setup your sizer die correctly as well otherwise you put yourself right back in the same spot.

So there's that part of this. Now, the fun shit: The complication can really start when you have a barrel that tanks and your sitting on a big ol pile of hand made ammo already loaded up. 2x when another shop fitted the first barrel but now you are taking your work someplace else. Getting the HS the same is tougher than most seem to realize. Reamers can be made very differently and still live well inside published SAAMI guidelines. If my "6mm Wiz Bang" has a radius callout of .02" at the neck/shoulder but your brass was fired in a chamber cut with a .04" we will be chasing HS issues. Now cascade this to the rest of the features/transitions:

*body/shoulder
*shoulder/neck intersections
*body OD at the web
*throat
*FB, etc...

SAAMI is only a moderator of sorts. They are not the police. Tooling companies can do whatever they want and as we know, some are far better at this than others. Thinking you can do it "by feel" is also plagued with issues. Least it was when I told myself I could do it. (I can't and gave up trying to force it a long time ago)

The better path out of this is to save up a few more dollars and have a few barrels fitted simultaneously. You are at far better odds of being able to truly swap and go. I do this for a lot of "gamer gun" guys in the spring. We'd hang 6-8 sticks a season for Jake Vibbert alone.


Hope this helps.

C.


Very nice explanation. I've been down this road before after barrel swaps, particularly with the web dimensions. Essentially it means trashing the brass unless there was a small-base die around. Even then they never quite behave correctly afterwards firing due to the weakened web.

One of the worst was in the early days of 338LM for instance when there was a CIP and SAMMI spec. It got frustrating to the point where I actually just did chamber castings in order to determine what was what. I had two 338's back then I had to lot brass for and the observed dimensions were quite different. Couldn't even remotely chamber one in the other.
 
Wrong. Non-reloaders want and need max headspace so that their rifle works reliably with any factory ammo. Non-reloaders don't give a shit about the growth of cases they will throw in the trash


I bet you enjoy pounding the bolt open and shut as well

Nope.
Minimum chamber spec is max ammo spec. I'm not talking wrench the barrel again a factory load and call it a day. I'm saying set to the close end of the go Guage. It's a very common method.
The brass will still blow out. But not 10 thousands like mosy factory rifles may do.
 
HS is often quite over stated in its absolute importance. SAAMI gives a pretty wide berth with these values because they can. If you shooting in the "fire and forget" community where you only run commercially loaded ammuntion, then you are risking very, very little. Almost nothing. In fact, too tight of HS will cause BIG accuracy problems. Proven this a bunch of times.

.0005" and on up to .006" won't make a gun shoot better or worse. It will however potentially cost you some money and aggravation if you fail to understand what can happen if you don't address it.

If you are "white sheeting" a particular job, then you have an advantage. You can set your brass up very easily a couple ways. the easiest is to just fire form it with the bullet seated intentionally long so that the case head is against the bolt face when the bullet is jammed into the lands of the barrel's chamber. If you have a plunger ejector, removing it works to your advantage in this instance. This way the case is truly pushed against the bolt.

The other way is a false shoulder. Neck it up, then squish it back down, but leave a small ring of the larger neck. This will "pinch" the case between the bolt face and the neck/shoulder junction of the chamber. More work, but your able to seat bullets at the desired COAL this way. You'll have it right when you feel a light pinch on the bolt as you roll it into battery.

What this does:

Brass moves around when its fired. We know this. When the striker hits the primer, it wants to push the case forward in the chamber. One of 4 things stops that.

1. Case body taper
2. Case shoulder contacting chamber shoulder
3. Bullet engaging the lands of the throat
4. Case belt contacts the machined ring in the chamber

When any of these take place the case stops moving forward. Ignition immediately follows and the fire gets lit. As pressure comes up the case body swells like a balloon until the chamber walls and bolt face stops it. Then the bullet is coughed down the hole.

The issue that'll give you fits arises when the case is scooted forward inside the chamber. The surface area of the case body latches onto the chamber wall. Quite dramatically. The friction it creates locks it into place because a pressure vessel exerts itself at a right angle to whatever its contacting. If the gap between bolt face and case body exists, the case will stretch itself as that portion becomes the path of least resistance. Brass with only maybe .04" of wall thickness won't stand up to the tens of thousands of pounds of pressure created inside a modern high performance cartridge case. This condition always makes the web of the case thinner in its cross section.

Now resize your brass and don't pay attention. Take it back to SAAMI length vs what your chamber is. Now you fire again and the web gets even thinner. Do this more than 3 or 4 times and the cases pop apart. Case head separation...

You can do this regardless of where HS is set if you don't pay attention to what you are doing at the reloading bench. Stick with the two suggested practices lined out in the beginning of this and it'll go away. Ensure you setup your sizer die correctly as well otherwise you put yourself right back in the same spot.

So there's that part of this. Now, the fun shit: The complication can really start when you have a barrel that tanks and your sitting on a big ol pile of hand made ammo already loaded up. 2x when another shop fitted the first barrel but now you are taking your work someplace else. Getting the HS the same is tougher than most seem to realize. Reamers can be made very differently and still live well inside published SAAMI guidelines. If my "6mm Wiz Bang" has a radius callout of .02" at the neck/shoulder but your brass was fired in a chamber cut with a .04" we will be chasing HS issues. Now cascade this to the rest of the features/transitions:

*body/shoulder
*shoulder/neck intersections
*body OD at the web
*throat
*FB, etc...

SAAMI is only a moderator of sorts. They are not the police. Tooling companies can do whatever they want and as we know, some are far better at this than others. Thinking you can do it "by feel" is also plagued with issues. Least it was when I told myself I could do it. (I can't and gave up trying to force it a long time ago)

The better path out of this is to save up a few more dollars and have a few barrels fitted simultaneously. You are at far better odds of being able to truly swap and go. I do this for a lot of "gamer gun" guys in the spring. We'd hang 6-8 sticks a season for Jake Vibbert alone.


Hope this helps.

C.

This is what I was talking about but you went much farther in depth on detail.
Another thing to add to options is to buy your own finish ream and use it on the new barrel. Sure they wear out but you will be much closer then shop to shop like you mentioned.
 
Nope.
Minimum chamber spec is max ammo spec.
Yeah, it took me a while to get that.

The question still stands: if you don't reload, why do you care about brass stretch so long as the bolt won't close on a no go?

What is the point?
 
Excessive case streach may cause misalignment as the bullet leaves the case and Engadget on rifling. Shorter bullet jump and stable neck alignment makes all the difference when you factor out neck tension and anything else you can't control when using factory loaded ammo.
So if you can set your chamber to be a few thousands ahead of the case as it sits on the bolt face the firing pin will take care of snuging that up.
I have had a situation where a factory Remington tactical was blowing out factory match ammo quite a bit. So I set the barrel back a little bit and the grouping cut in half. Now keep in mind this was to correct a factory rifle for a person who didn't hand load and wanted to shoot long range. The obvious best choice was to hand load but he was against the idea. So that's why I mentioned there is possable benefit to setting a barrel to better fit a chosen factory load.