- Thread starter KCode
- Start date
This has been hashed out before. The difference between click sizes is less than the 1/2 the diameter of the bullet (.25" vs .36"). But then you will bring up 1/8 moa scopes. There are 0.05mil scopes as well. (.125" vs .18"). That makes the differences even less. Can you even hold either of those at range?
Mils works with yards as well as everything else. 1 mil is 1 (unit) at 1000 (units) away. Mil is unit agnostic. It happens to be metric but it works with everything.
Did you ever take Trig? A full circle is 2 pi. 2x 3.14... = 6.28318......
Mrad is pi/6280. Moa is pi/10800. Math wise says mrad makes more sense with all units of measure. Took a Trig class fall 2022.
It's also 1 sheet of paper thick at 2 reams. 1 thou at 1 inch. 3.6 inches at 3600 inches (same as 100 yards). 1 light year at 1000 lightyears. All the same measurement because it is an angle.
Last edited:
Depending the venue (shooting included) both have their pro's & con's.
I am surprised people here aren’t visualizing in dicks.
1 dick @ 1000 dicks is also a mil.
I agree with all that, but what about land navigation? That’s angles and minutes, or is there a method that’s mil?
Uh huh huh huh you said visual uh huh huh
MOA vs MIL
Our recent discussions, in all their glory:
Feb 2021 @chickon1 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.7060652/
Jan 2021 @TheHorta https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...a-leaked-documents-show.7055099/#post-9214811
Mar 2020 @Painjob38 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/100-yard-or-100-meters.6995732/#post-8429153
Mar 2020 @BJDelaporte https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mils-at-100-meters.6994902/. (This one was epic)
Jan 2019 @L2bravo https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/
Our recent discussions, in all their glory:
Feb 2021 @chickon1 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.7060652/
Jan 2021 @TheHorta https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...a-leaked-documents-show.7055099/#post-9214811
Mar 2020 @Painjob38 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/100-yard-or-100-meters.6995732/#post-8429153
Mar 2020 @BJDelaporte https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mils-at-100-meters.6994902/. (This one was epic)
Jan 2019 @L2bravo https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/
MOA vs MIL
A few past discussions, in all their glory:
Feb 2021 @chickon1 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.7060652/
Jan 2021 @TheHorta https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...a-leaked-documents-show.7055099/#post-9214811
Mar 2020 @Painjob38 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/100-yard-or-100-meters.6995732/#post-8429153
Mar 2020 @BJDelaporte https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mils-at-100-meters.6994902/. (This one was epic)
Jan 2019 @L2bravo https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/
- Please do a search for “MOA vs Mil” on SH
- Click this Link for good information on this topic from @Lowlight (contains link to the training video and other information): https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mils-vs-moa-vs-iphy-article.7002048/
- Sign up for a training class, or go to PRS and discuss other shooters.
A few past discussions, in all their glory:
Feb 2021 @chickon1 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.7060652/
Jan 2021 @TheHorta https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...a-leaked-documents-show.7055099/#post-9214811
Mar 2020 @Painjob38 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/100-yard-or-100-meters.6995732/#post-8429153
Mar 2020 @BJDelaporte https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mils-at-100-meters.6994902/. (This one was epic)
Jan 2019 @L2bravo https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/
You mind if I copy these (giving you credit for the list of course) and add the originals from Legendary Thread #7 and update that post? I am taking that list as a set as nominations for the Legendary Thread.
Should we @ the original posters or not?
One minute true north or south is basically one nautical mile, east to west, it trends to zero as you get to the poles.
One degree is sixty nautical miles.
One second is one hundred feet.
So your hundred yard zero is a three second distance to target.
Get hot enough of a load and send it into orbit.
One degree is sixty nautical miles.
One second is one hundred feet.
So your hundred yard zero is a three second distance to target.
Get hot enough of a load and send it into orbit.
Last edited:
Dial for elevation.
Hold for wind.
Once the stick is 100yd zeroed, I hold it all w/the ret. Much faster, no matter task or venue, nor do you lose sight of the target.
Ask the questions anyway.
Also, here is a simple two-step process to starting a fecal tornado.
1) Post about something. Anything.
2) Do it on a day that ends in the letter 'y' (assuming american English.)
You are going to get help. And you are going to get salty replies where people pretend to be so tired of discussing things like the difference between MOA and MIL in a sharpshooting forum. Perhaps they were expecting a discussion whether Midol helps with PMS better than just Tylenol. I guess. I mean, I don't know why someone would not expect to have a thread about scopes in a sharpshooting forum. However, I might be the stupidest one here.
In fact, that is what I said in my first ever. And, so far, I have not disappointed.
Hi. Absolutely. And when I get some more time I will try to put together list of useful, straightforward threads as well.
@LeftyJason I think listing original posters in not a bad idea (the original poster is in the URL). I think it would help people find specific threads.
Problem is lots of regulars think they understand mils when they don't. Too many people still think mils is only for metric.
Maybe we can put together a truth about mils/ moa thread that we start February 1st where we bring all the good stuff together. It will still devolve but at least it will be in the correct month.
I listed them as their name ex LeftyJason vs with the @LeftyJason. Don't want people to try to get in the Legendary Thread by posting bullcrap. Don't reward the trolls.
One of the few good things that came out of the French Revolution was the metric system. But “milli” is merely a prefix. I will look for a concise summary from some recognized reference. That way we can reference it as needed concerning metric system, SI, and MIL.
@KCode Has anyone explained factoring in “true north” to you yet? It’s a little advanced but we’ll get you there
Is this some sort of hillbilly jargon that I’m too civilized to understand?
Edit: just for the record, I have a significant amount of hillbilly blood in me. It’s just that I don’t recognize the KY dialect. My hillbilly came from AR
Last edited:
to put this to rest,let's go back to the arshin system for a lot more fun.
Yeah, I took a trig class, for credit, in 1980. But I was learning about it before then, thanks to my step-grandfather and a penchant for math.
And I think you have a fine post here and lays it out quite nicely.
Plenty of dead enemies and dead deer with mrad scopes.
Serious as a heart attack, I never even thought if 1/8 MOA turrets until you brought it up. But I think it would not help to discuss that here.
Sometimes the dipshit is not the guy who started the thread. Fact is, the OP is real often asking a benign and honest question but some dumbass comes along to explain with not a clue as to what they are talking about. Or some guys have a sort of understanding but not deep enough to explain, or just don't know how to explain logically. My favorite are the guys that go quote Wikipedia or some other forum and still get it wrong. It isn't always MILOA but this seems to get the most traction.
If memory serves me correctly, there are actually a little over 6,283 MILs in a circle. However, the US military uses 6,400 MILs. IIRC, the Soviet military used 6,700 MILs.
Don't ask me to explain it. I just accept it.
Heard stuff guys dicking with the M551 Sheridans (before I got out the first time)were saying about calibrating its system, but don't remember much about it. The 551 was the hot rod of armor in its day & could chunk man made sunshine, also.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,702
- 17,707
But them hillbillies in Ar have a good legal system. If a husband and wife get divorced, they still remain brother and sister.
There are 2π radians in a circle. There are 2000π mils in a circle. So 6283.18531..............
Soviets used 6000 which is divisible by 12 and makes sense to me. There are 500 units between every clock number...also easily divided by 10.
6400 does not make any sense to me.
The rounding, in both cases, is about being able to do some math easier on a big gun before every private had a calculator in his pocket. But..why not go with 6300 so its a little closer? Or...better yet, 6360? I'm sure some French mathematician assigned to an artillery piece came up with it just to be different.
When you hold or dial, you are making a correction that is an angular displacement.
The easiest way to see a simple demonstration of why using milliradians as the unit of measurement makes the most sense is to search how to find or compute arc length.
You will find that, using radian based units takes one iteration, or single computation. It is the angular displacement in radians times the radius (distance), and done.
Using degree based units, you have multiple iterations, or computations, in order to include pi and clean up the fraction of degrees. Y'all good with fractions, right? But why?
Remember to show your work.
edit to add: This (eliminating extra iterations) is also why for High Power competition, CMP or NRA, it makes sense to use moa. Why create a need to pound out the fractions of unit of measurement? The target scoring rings are in moa. There is no need to do any extra math to process or communicate how far to hold or dial. 1/2 moa will take you from the x-ring line to the center of the x-ring. Or, 1 moa will take you from the 10-ring line to the center of the x. Unless you're shooting F-Class, where the scoring rings are smaller. How bout those boys cleaning the F-Class targets at 1000 with very high X counts? Doing their part, all day.
The easiest way to see a simple demonstration of why using milliradians as the unit of measurement makes the most sense is to search how to find or compute arc length.
You will find that, using radian based units takes one iteration, or single computation. It is the angular displacement in radians times the radius (distance), and done.
Using degree based units, you have multiple iterations, or computations, in order to include pi and clean up the fraction of degrees. Y'all good with fractions, right? But why?
Remember to show your work.
edit to add: This (eliminating extra iterations) is also why for High Power competition, CMP or NRA, it makes sense to use moa. Why create a need to pound out the fractions of unit of measurement? The target scoring rings are in moa. There is no need to do any extra math to process or communicate how far to hold or dial. 1/2 moa will take you from the x-ring line to the center of the x-ring. Or, 1 moa will take you from the 10-ring line to the center of the x. Unless you're shooting F-Class, where the scoring rings are smaller. How bout those boys cleaning the F-Class targets at 1000 with very high X counts? Doing their part, all day.
Last edited:
Sorta....
True mils also include pi.
We could just as easily use some rounding for degrees.
Like, if your scope had .1 moa clicks?
What is the arc length indicated on a circle of radius 1000 meters subtended by the angle 360?
How the fuck do I always miss these epic threads?
Anyway OP don’t let anyone tell you that MILS are not based on the metric system!
Anyway OP don’t let anyone tell you that MILS are not based on the metric system!
More along the lines of rounding 360 to 500. Or maybe rounding 60 to 100.
Mil vs MOA... you mean there's a difference? 
