dope card vs drop chart

[Swift]

I've used ballistic drop charts for a couple years now and they seem to be pretty accurate. Haven't pushed them to their limits yet but they've been pretty reliable. However, a good dope card will be dead on. But is the difference between the two enough to influence your performance at, let's say, 600 yards? At what point can/does a ballistic chart become unreliable?

I'm gonna start building a dope card once I finish this Remington project so if you guys have any tips/things to keep in mind during the process, that would be great.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

I'm confused....dope is dope, drop is drop, and windage be what that be.

Dope card vs. drop chart....same/same to me.

I just call it dope.....drop dope and/or wind dope.

I run a JBM, or equivelent, on my load per the current zero, then shoot that load across a dozen or more points to confirm or deny that computer estimated data.

Once corrections are made via real life live fire I make up a dope sheet. An abridged copy of this goes in very small print on a plain white sticker paper and put under my BC eye piece cap...as a quick reference that's right there with quick access.

Another copy is printed out in detail from zero to 1K, again smallish print, and printed on a smallish card, laminated, and goes in my stock pack. Another larger copy goes in the range book for that rifle. No matter what I'm doing, if I can't remember the info, then I have it at the ready.

It's never not worked as intended.........

 

[Guest]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

Dope =

D-ata
O-n
P-ersonal
E-quipment

Drop chart, will not have scope off set, different ammo's POI vs your std ammo's zero, or other data.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: dope card vs drop chart


-Data
-On
-Previous
-Engagements




Was just discussing ballistics and chronographs and projections with a new shooter and I was sharing the viewpoint and experience that if I get any info that doesn't jive 100% with calculations, I don't care what the chrono or best ballistic program says-I go with what my bullets did on my targets and tweak everything else to fit the reality of what I shot, then project unknowns (recording when they are no longer unknown of course).

Pretty much what gf14e2 and tripwire mentioned.

Hardest part I have is disciplining myself to record routinely when I shoot.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

Gotcha, so this will be another thread to over complicate the simple.

I'll bow out now.......

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gotcha, so this will be another thread to over complicate the simple.
</div></div>

How's that?

 

[josh1371]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

As it's already been mentioned, maybe in not so many words, is that dope is what you need to put into you're scope to hit targets no matter what the caculators say. As example, for my .243win at 750 yards JBM calls for 19 1/2 MOA of elevation, in real life it only takes 18 MOA. Keeping good records of every trip to the range is the only way to go.

 

[Helidonna]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

To me there is a diffrence, listen to Josh1371. Good notes on every shot is what will make the diffrence in the real world. Programs just get you in the ball park you really do need to proof them at the range and use those numbers...

 

[Rob01]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

Garbage in, garbage out is the saying that strikes true with ballistic programs. If you don't put the right data in then you don't get the right data out.

Another thing people don't check is if their scope tracks correctly. They say the ballistics program is off but it could be the scope.

I always use JBM as I don't have 1000 yards to get data on and my elevation has never been off more than .2 mils at 1000, which is about 7.2". That's not too bad and I know my scopes track correctly as I have tested them.

 

[battlestick]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

I think the main question you are asking is this..

Is there a difference between what a ballistic calulator spits out and what your bullet will actually do? The answer is yes, I don't care how accurate you get all the variables. ie wind speed, elevation, MV, BC, etc...

IME, they will be pretty spot on to 300-400yds, after that, you need to record the dope your gun gets with it's favorite load in every situation.

It will seem futile at first, then when you have enough data, you will see the trends.

 

[Cubed333]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

Still being relatively new I cant offer too much first hand experience but I can offer some objective observations based on my own research on the topic.
The difference between a dope and drop chart is that the dope chart is a personalised chart that reflects what your rifle is shooting in various conditions with certain ammo. This is data that you have personally entered and shot and experienced with your rifle.
The drop chart is simply a program that has been told to calculate your shooting results based on formulas that have been lab tested, based on the information you put in. As stated before what you put in directly correlates to what is given out by the program. So if there is something wrong, ie scope height or muzzle velocity, bc, etc it will effect the final outcome.
It does not take into account the effect of fouling, the barrel temp after x shots, the ambient temp effect on the barrel, pretty much any effect on the equipment via the environment or even shooter.
So the point as which the dope chart versus drop chart changes is when the two do not match up in real world shooting.
This could be at 100yards or it could be at 800. The only way to know for sure is as has been said, to go out shoot and record your data accurately.
I recently invested in an Impact Data book for this particular reason as I noticed some changes in my accuracy due to an ammo brand change and it took me a while to dial in the changes. Now i've recorded that info next time it happens I can go oh yeah I had this, flip to the page dial in the dope and be on target again.
I think that ballistic programs are critical in getting you on paper at long distances, you can then dope accordingly and record your results.
I've just bought the Shooter APP for my android tablet, haven't tested it out real world but based on data inputed its replicating the real world results at 100 yards compared to data in my data book.
I would use both until you can build up a pretty good data store, at which point the only time you need the drop info is when working new loads to get you on paper again until you build up data.
IMO you need both but a real dope chart will be much better in the long run and besides it teaches you much more about shooting rather than how to plug in info and pull the trigger essentially.
Good luck with it and I'll plug Impact Data books 'cause they are really good and for a newbie like me made the whole operation alot easier.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

Start collecting and logging your data in a data book and you will see your first round hits increase.

What this video it will give you info of why and how to use a data book!!

[video:youtube]http://youtu.be/P6yt1IE3cn4[/video]

 

[Swift]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

I guess I could have worded the OP a little better. It was a long day. I understand that real world logs will always be more accurate than what a computer spits out. I just didn't know if the inaccuracies of a calculated drop were substantial enough to make a theoretical hit, a miss.

Either way, you guys have pretty much covered everything I was looking for and I have some good advice to use moving forward. I will have a data book in hand when my 700 gets to the range. Good time to start as the round count will be nil.

 

[Bob Roach]

Re: dope card vs drop chart

What I do. First I get all the accurate information required to feed into my ballistic program. Bullet weight, BC, velocity, scope height, altitude, etc, etc. I feed it into X-Ball, and or Quick Load/Quick Target. I print out a ballistic table.
Next I make up a Drop Chart for my Log Book in Microsoft Word.
My Drop Charts normally go from 100 thru 1000 yards in 25 yard increments. I have a column for MOA Come-Ups, and a second column for MIL Hold Over. If I had a MIL-MIL scope I would just put in a MIL Come Up Chart.

Next I shoot at 100, 200, 300, etc and verify my come ups are correct on the target. Normally if you put good accurate information in, the drop chart is very close.
I did this for my 223/77 SMK last week. When I shot at the range I observed that my rifle was shooting .25 MOA flatter than my Drop Chart at 400, 500, and 600 yards. I shot through the chronograph again, and my velocity was up due to the high temperature. I reintered the correct velocity in my ballistic program, and the field observed information was spot on.

I have not done this yet myself, but I believe a shooter should have multiple Drop Charts in his Log Book to cover changes in Come Ups due to changes in velocity due to temperature, and air density. I have been using a Summer & Winter Drop Chart which is close enough for silhouettes to 800 yards. I think 4 charts would be a better number to have.

Then we have equipment. One needs to make sure the scope is correctly aligned up and down with the bore. You need a bubble level on the base or scope to keep the rifle straight up and down when firing. I prefer the scope mounted ones myself. Then check the scope to make sure it dials straight up, and not off to one side.
Then check to make sure it adjusts per MOA or MIL as advertised. Dial it up 24 MOA from your aiming point at 100 yards, and measure the group to see if the scope dialed up 24 MOA. Better yet get some butcher paper on a sheet of plywood with fiber board over it to make a tall target. Make a straight vertical line on the target paper, and staple it up using an accurate bubble lever to make sure the line is straight up and down. Now dial the scope up, and shoot checking the adjustment at several points for accuracy.

Once you determine your equipment is working perfectly, your computer generated chart will be pretty close if you enter correct information. This exercise will also fortify your confidence in your equipment.

Just my 2 cents.

Bob