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DPMS LR 308 - G3SG1 - DRAGUNOV SVDS

fares226

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I have DPMS LR 308 in addition to a pws mk216 upper - G3SG1 - RUSSIAN DRAGUNOV SVDS, and im thinking of keeping one rifle of these, mainly for boar hunting night and day, and casual target shooting, im torn on which one to keep, 308 are easier to find in my area, however the svds feels so lighter than the others, also i dont know about the durability and reilability og the dpms and mk216, the G3 is well known for being reliabel ( i dont reload )
I appreciate any opinions or insight into this
 

diggler1833

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A PWS Mk 218 was on my short list for potential hog guns when I decided I needed another .308. A Mk 216 would be handier for hunting at 0-200 yards/meters.

You could be different and run the G3 or SVD...but the modularity (and much better factory trigger) of the PWS makes it a clear winner in my book. I own a PTR91 FR as well, and there is no way I'd take it out unless I had to (not G3 quality, but G3 ergos).

The PWS would just about be the perfect factory platform for running a suppressed pig gun. I wouldn't worry about reliability either.
 

DocRDS

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Slightly offtrack---does the PWS upper fit your LR308?

I will say the reliability of the LR308 is fine for hunting. DPMS gets a lot of knocks, but it was a nice value build when built.
 

DocRDS

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The LR308 is a tinkerer and given that you can swap out parts like legos, would probably be more versatile in the end (Want a 6.5? Get a 6.5 Upper. Want a Lightweight? Get a 16in pencil).

I'm partial to ARs.

On the other hand, I wouldn't sell nuthin. I'm like the crazy old cat lady, but with guns. Unless you are in dire financial straights, keep em.
 
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juha_teuvonnen

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Interesting. The Tigr hunting carbine in the picture above (a derivative of the SVD) is a fairly recent Russian production, judging by the markings, folding stock and the flash hider. I was under the impression that none were imported into the US after a Clinton-Yeltsin agreement went into effect some time in 1993 or 1994. AFAIK Russia voluntarily agreed to limit what firearms were exported to the US and "Tigr" was not on that list. AFAIK the folding stock versions were made long after the aforementioned agreement went into effect. Once the supply has dried up the Tigrs started going up in price in the US. They are commonly available and not terribly expensive elsewhere.

Overall, the hunting variant of SVD isn't a bad rifle. The military optics are 4x and of miserable clarity, because they were made from special optical glass that doesn't darken when exposed to radiation. Once you slap a side mount with either a rail or integral scope rings on it and a decent scope, it can hold its own against other gas-piston semi-autos. If you get one with a good barrel, with quality ammo 1.5 MOA is attainable.
 

LRRPF52

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Interesting. The Tigr hunting carbine in the picture above (a derivative of the SVD) is a fairly recent Russian production, judging by the markings, folding stock and the flash hider. I was under the impression that none were imported into the US after a Clinton-Yeltsin agreement went into effect some time in 1993 or 1994. AFAIK Russia voluntarily agreed to limit what firearms were exported to the US and "Tigr" was not on that list. AFAIK the folding stock versions were made long after the aforementioned agreement went into effect. Once the supply has dried up the Tigrs started going up in price in the US. They are commonly available and not terribly expensive elsewhere.

Overall, the hunting variant of SVD isn't a bad rifle. The military optics are 4x and of miserable clarity, because they were made from special optical glass that doesn't darken when exposed to radiation. Once you slap a side mount with either a rail or integral scope rings on it and a decent scope, it can hold its own against other gas-piston semi-autos. If you get one with a good barrel, with quality ammo 1.5 MOA is attainable.
Was thinking the same thing. The only Tigr I’ve seen was in Finland. Dude put a Leica on it if I recall.
 

NCHillbilly

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    I have had a DPMS LR308 for years. Shot well north of 1000rds so far with hardly any issues (a few minor ammo related issues). Weapon still hits 1100yds with 178gr handloads, but will digest mil surp as well. I wouldn't part with mine for anything
     

    towerofpower93

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    Was thinking the same thing. The only Tigr I’ve seen was in Finland. Dude put a Leica on it if I recall.

    SVDS ‘kits’ from demilled Russian guns have made their way into the sates via private sellers over the years. Combine with a Tigr and someone like Richard Parker and you can have an SVDS in the US. At least that’s how I got mine....
     

    the_oleksandr

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    Considering a real Russian SVD will go north of $7k and maybe much more.....Sell them all

    Buy a quality 6.5CM gas gun , Buy thermals, Buy cans , Buy a tripod and buy a bunch of ammo.

    A real SVD, and I believe there are only about 100 of them in US (imported by KBI back in the day), will sell north of $15-20k easily.

    Last one I saw for sale had an asking price of around $30k (brand new never fired, full package)

    I personally own a rare variant of the Tiger with a hooded front iron sight, I think my rifle would go for around $8-10k, especially since it’s in California.

    It’s an important part of history for many Soviet born Americans, if they can afford it.
     

    towerofpower93

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    A real SVD, and I believe there are only about 100 of them in US (imported by KBI back in the day), will sell north of $15-20k easily.

    Last one I saw for sale had an asking price of around $30k (brand new never fired, full package)

    I personally own a rare variant of the Tiger with a hooded front iron sight, I think my rifle would go for around $8-10k, especially since it’s in California.

    It’s an important part of history for many Soviet born Americans, if they can afford it.

    There are more than the 100 SVDs imported by KBI, but those were brought in piecemeal as bringbacks and the like.
     

    juha_teuvonnen

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    There were more than 100 Tigr hunting carbines imported into the US. FWIW, I was told by a person I trust that the total number of Tigrs imported by KBI was 500, but I have never seen any proof of this. I own one of the KBI Tigers, and no, I did not pay anywhere near 30K for it. It was expensive, and it was a nostalgic purchase for me. I used to shoot military SVD and I have an irrational fondness of that rifle. Let's just say I could have bought a lot more rifle for the same amount of money if it weren't SVD/Tigr.

    The KBI Tigr has military wooden furniture, identical to that of a military-issue SVD. It also has a gas regulator which is usually missing on a civilian Tigr. It has a front right with a flash hider identical to that of the military SVD. The barrel is 530mm long, which is different from both military issue SVD barrels (620mm for SVD and 565mm for SVD-S). Basically, the only difference between military SVD and KBI Tigr are the shorter barrel and receiver markings that say Tigr.

    I have never seen a Tigr in the US with a full-length 620mm barrel. They are available in Russia as a special order item, but I have never seen one in the US. The closest thing to a military SVD with 620mm barrel that you can have in the US is a Chinese NDM-86. From what I know, the biggest pain that the factory had when making SVDs was the barrel. They are cold hammer forged, chrome lined barrels. While the conventional wisdom says that chrome lined barrels are less accurate, it is not the case with SVD. The reason why the chrome lined barrels are not accurate is uneven thickness of the chrome lining. Russians used a special technique called "electropolishing" that made the thickness of the chrome lining much more uniform. An SVD barrel will shoot every bit as well as an identical CMV (Chrome Vanadium Molybdenum) barrel without chrome lining. Accuracy issues with SVD are due to pencil thin barrel profile and receiver flex. If you want to get good groups, let the barrel cool between them. Don't blame Yevgeniy Dragunov for shortcomings of his rifle, the military had a certain fairly light weight written into the requirements and they were not at all flexible on that. Dragunov was a great guy, he was a great engineer and an avid competitive shooter. He was not at all political, which did hurt his career somewhat.
     
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    LRRPF52

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    From my research and interviews with former verified Spetnaz snipers and historians who have gone deep into this subject, when they were designing the SVD and PSO-1 system, they basically wanted a more reliable SVT-40 with a better optic that was very practical for combat, with controls common to the Kalashnikov for standardization of training. They did not want a heavy target rifle that could shoot amazing groups, so there was a conscious compromise on accuracy vs portability and fighting. This is where you see the mandate on Dragunov to make a medium-thin barrel profile vs a more target-friendly heavy contour.



    That specification was derived from the experiences of Soviet snipers on various fronts throughout the war. They really wanted to be able to maneuver with the rifle, just like the SVT-40 afforded. The Soviet archives are surprisingly-thorough and voluminous in their lessons from "The Great Patriotic War”, though not widely published during the Soviet times.

    Former KGB Helsinki Station Cheif’s SVD:



    They figured that most engagement distances would be within a certain range, and that a sniper has to displace frequently or face the incoming mortar or artillery fire anyway. That was and still is a very common counter-sniper tactic. Lyudmila Pavlichenko was one of many snipers who suffered mortar barrages in the battles of Odessa and Sevestapol, leading to her medical retirement from serving on the front anymore.

    Decades later, when the US finally broke through the institutional resistance within the USMC and US Army to establish permanent sniping schools and purpose-built rifles and optics, we leaned on the heavier barrel profile driven by the competition-based shooting from the USMC and Army Marksmanship programs with their shooting teams.

    This also influenced the emphasis on the shooter/spotter concept.

    One of the comments from the Russians was that when 2 Snipers were working together, they might focus on shooting multiple targets as quickly as possible as a combat-multiplier, rather than 2 guys focused on the same TGT.

    They also dispelled the idea that they were more of a designated marksman, since they went through an entire sniper training program after crucible during initial entry into conscription. These were all guys who shot as much as they could in their local high school shooting teams before being conscripted.

    Within the first 2 weeks of crucible, they were evaluated on their performance with the standard service rifle. For those that could hit 3 separate silhouette targets on automatic fire with the AK74 and only 9 rounds, they were then handed an SVD, given a quick class on the PSO-1, and tested on how well they could group and then engage targets at distance with the rifle/scope, under the supervision by a Warrant Officer Sniper Instructor who had many years of almost nothing but sniper training and employment.

    If they performed well enough, then they would go into sniper training during their individual skills conscript service, and incorporate with the rest of their cohorts during field and final combined live fire exercises.

    Their sniper training was modeled after the German program of the 1920s/1930s, then tweaked after the War, so for anyone who has gone through sniper training in a NATO country, it would be so familiar as to be indistinguishable in most ways but one. While we have a heavy emphasis on radio work for recon, surveillance, call for fire, CASEVAC, and CAS, they had specific fire support officers who were tasked with that.

    Interesting subject for sure though.
     

    the_oleksandr

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    There were more than 100 Tigr hunting carbines imported into the US. FWIW, I was told by a person I trust that the total number of Tigrs imported by KBI was 500, but I have never seen any proof of this. I own one of the KBI Tigers, and no, I did not pay anywhere near 30K for it. It was expensive, and it was a nostalgic purchase for me. I used to shoot military SVD and I have an irrational fondness of that rifle. Let's just say I could have bought a lot more rifle for the same amount of money if it weren't SVD/Tigr.

    The KBI Tigr has military wooden furniture, identical to that of a military-issue SVD. It also has a gas regulator which is usually missing on a civilian Tigr. It has a front right with a flash hider identical to that of the military SVD. The barrel is 530mm long, which is different from both military issue SVD barrels (620mm for SVD and 565mm for SVD-S). Basically, the only difference between military SVD and KBI Tigr are the shorter barrel and receiver markings that say Tigr.

    I have never seen a Tigr in the US with a full-length 620mm barrel. They are available in Russia as a special order item, but I have never seen one in the US. The closest thing to a military SVD with 620mm barrel that you can have in the US is a Chinese NDM-86. From what I know, the biggest pain that the factory had when making SVDs was the barrel. They are cold hammer forged, chrome lined barrels. While the conventional wisdom says that chrome lined barrels are less accurate, it is not the case with SVD. The reason why the chrome lined barrels are not accurate is uneven thickness of the chrome lining. Russians used a special technique called "electropolishing" that made the thickness of the chrome lining much more uniform. An SVD barrel will shoot every bit as well as an identical CMV (Chrome Vanadium Molybdenum) barrel without chrome lining. Accuracy issues with SVD are due to pencil thin barrel profile and receiver flex. If you want to get good groups, let the barrel cool between them. Don't blame Yevgeniy Dragunov for shortcomings of his rifle, the military had a certain fairly light weight written into the requirements and they were not at all flexible on that. Dragunov was a great guy, he was a great engineer and an avid competitive shooter. He was not at all political, which did hurt his career somewhat.

    KBI imported ~100 Actual SVD Dragunovs, not Tigers in the early '90s. These rare rifles have a 24" barrel, flash hider, and adjustable gas block. The last one I saw for sale from a private collection had an asking price of about $38k (I just checked my emails from 2018) I offered $18k and my offer was declined.

    The next 2 paragraphs are from a knowledgeable source.

    The closest thing to the real thing in the US is the "California Armory Tiger" that was imported in the early 1990s came in with all the military features, including buttstock, flash suppressor (removed from barrel), rear sight leaf, etc. However, they have a shorter 20" barrel and no adjustable gas system. The barrel diameter and length are identical to the regular Tiger and is not based on the shorter SVDS barrel.

    The rifles are numbered as if they are a limited production run of 1000 but importation was cut off before all 1000 arrived. There are actually only about 700 of these Tiger rifles that were imported by California Armory, Inc of San Bruno, California USA. This is the second most rare Dragunov variant in the U.S., behind the KBI imported SVDs of which only 100 came in.
     

    towerofpower93

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    KBI imported ~100 Actual SVD Dragunovs, not Tigers in the early '90s. These rare rifles have a 24" barrel, flash hider, and adjustable gas block. The last one I saw for sale from a private collection had an asking price of about $38k (I just checked my emails from 2018) I offered $18k and my offer was declined.

    The next 2 paragraphs are from a knowledgeable source.

    The closest thing to the real thing in the US is the "California Armory Tiger" that was imported in the early 1990s came in with all the military features, including buttstock, flash suppressor (removed from barrel), rear sight leaf, etc. However, they have a shorter 20" barrel and no adjustable gas system. The barrel diameter and length are identical to the regular Tiger and is not based on the shorter SVDS barrel.

    The rifles are numbered as if they are a limited production run of 1000 but importation was cut off before all 1000 arrived. There are actually only about 700 of these Tiger rifles that were imported by California Armory, Inc of San Bruno, California USA. This is the second most rare Dragunov variant in the U.S., behind the KBI imported SVDs of which only 100 came in.

    Correct, I was referencing the 100 full size SVD rifles imported by KBI which are 100% military correct for the early 90s (internal lightening cuts, safety sear, etc)

    The Tigr rifles were brought in by a few different outfits to include KBI, CAI, and others.
     
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    juha_teuvonnen

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    KBI imported ~100 Actual SVD Dragunovs, not Tigers in the early '90s. These rare rifles have a 24" barrel, flash hider, and adjustable gas block. The last one I saw for sale from a private collection had an asking price of about $38k (I just checked my emails from 2018) I offered $18k and my offer was declined.

    The next 2 paragraphs are from a knowledgeable source.

    The closest thing to the real thing in the US is the "California Armory Tiger" that was imported in the early 1990s came in with all the military features, including buttstock, flash suppressor (removed from barrel), rear sight leaf, etc. However, they have a shorter 20" barrel and no adjustable gas system. The barrel diameter and length are identical to the regular Tiger and is not based on the shorter SVDS barrel.

    The rifles are numbered as if they are a limited production run of 1000 but importation was cut off before all 1000 arrived. There are actually only about 700 of these Tiger rifles that were imported by California Armory, Inc of San Bruno, California USA. This is the second most rare Dragunov variant in the U.S., behind the KBI imported SVDs of which only 100 came in.
    I think I have the second most rare version then, which explains why I didn't pay 30 grand for it. I'll pull it out of the safe after work today, take a look and post some pictures, but I am 100% sure it's Tigr length barrel.

    Thanks for correcting me on the actual SVDs with 620mm barrel. I was not aware that they were ever imported into the US. Apparently they were even marked the same way military rifles were, except for the importer's stamp. They weren't marked Tigr from the factory. It's weird that they were even able to export them from Russia, because the Russian laws differentiate between military and civilian weapons, and the export procedures for them are completely different. The military weapon export procedure is much more complicated and requires many additional approvals.
     
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    towerofpower93

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    I think I have the second most rare version then, which explains why I didn't pay 30 grand for it. I'll pull it out of the safe after work today, take a look and post some pictures, but I am 100% sure it's Tigr length barrel.

    Thanks for correcting me on the actual SVDs with 620mm barrel. I was not aware that they were ever imported into the US. Apparently they were even marked the same way military rifles were, except for the importer's stamp. They weren't marked Tigr from the factory. It's weird that they were even able to export them from Russia, because the Russian laws differentiate between military and civilian weapons, and the export procedures for them are completely different. The military weapon export procedure is much more complicated and requires many additional approvals.

    If you have a CAI imported Tigr you do have what would be considered the most desirable Tigr model imported, since they came with the SVD FH and other bits that allowed the Tigr to be as close to a military SVD as possible, not withstanding the barrel length and the lack of a safety sear in the FCG.
     

    juha_teuvonnen

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    From my research and interviews with former verified Spetnaz snipers and historians who have gone deep into this subject, when they were designing the SVD and PSO-1 system, they basically wanted a more reliable SVT-40 with a better optic that was very practical for combat, with controls common to the Kalashnikov for standardization of training. They did not want a heavy target rifle that could shoot amazing groups, so there was a conscious compromise on accuracy vs portability and fighting. This is where you see the mandate on Dragunov to make a medium-thin barrel profile vs a more target-friendly heavy contour.

    That specification was derived from the experiences of Soviet snipers on various fronts throughout the war. They really wanted to be able to maneuver with the rifle, just like the SVT-40 afforded. The Soviet archives are surprisingly-thorough and voluminous in their lessons from "The Great Patriotic War”, though not widely published during the Soviet times.
    You are correct, in fact if you study the Soviet doctrinal documents ("Боевой устав сухопутных войск" or "Боевой устав воздушно-десантных войск" respectively for Army and Airborne troops) and the sniper deployment manuals, it's apparent that virtually all of it is heavily based on WWII experience. SVT has mechanical issues that cause it not to group well at times, and takes intimate knowledge of that weapon and being mechanically inclined to get it to group. It's no accident that Lyudmila Pavlichenko, who was likely the most successful SVT-40 sniper was a factory worker at Kiev Arsenal before the war. The Soviet Army wanted an improved equivalent of SVT sniper, without it being finicky. They did not want a precision bolt gun, because most WWII infantry engagements happened within 300 meters. So, the military wanted something with twice the distance to disturb the enemy and throw them off balance before they even went into the fight. Hunting officers, mortar crews (hated by snipers with a passion and for a good reason) and others who were difficult to replace is what it was all about.

    They figured that most engagement distances would be within a certain range, and that a sniper has to displace frequently or face the incoming mortar or artillery fire anyway. That was and still is a very common counter-sniper tactic. Lyudmila Pavlichenko was one of many snipers who suffered mortar barrages in the battles of Odessa and Sevestapol, leading to her medical retirement from serving on the front anymore.
    The main counter-sniper technique during the first Chechen war circa 1995-96 was to make it rain mortars, if it happened in the field. Didn't work too well in the city, though. Sniper duels are great for making movies, but that's not how the Soviet/Russian military rolls.


    One of the comments from the Russians was that when 2 Snipers were working together, they might focus on shooting multiple targets as quickly as possible as a combat-multiplier, rather than 2 guys focused on the same TGT.
    For a .30 caliber 150 grain bullet the wind calls start becoming necessary around 500-ish meters. You are not going to shoot much further than that with an SVD and factory 7N1 ammo. Additionally, most SVD snipers are conscript drafted for two years, not a professional who spent many years perfecting their skill. A precision bolt action rifle would be less effective, not more effective given the personnel and training of the Soviet Army, who wrote the requirements for the SVD. Engaging multiple high-value targets quickly at ranges up to 600 meters, may be more if you are lucky is what it's all about.

    They also dispelled the idea that they were more of a designated marksman, since they went through an entire sniper training program after crucible during initial entry into conscription. These were all guys who shot as much as they could in their local high school shooting teams before being conscripted.
    Well, in a way it's similar to the designated marksman and different from the classic two-man shooter-spotter team in that the Russian sniper is a "one-man show". With training it worked something like "Airguns 2nd grade through 4th or 5th grade, bolt-action .22LR rifles up until 9th grade, shooting prone laying on gym mats. Field trips to the shooting range of a local mechanized infantry division were reserved for 9th and 10th grade - shooting AK-74, pretty much the same exercises as the enlisted men. Every Soviet school had an equivalent of an ROTC and it was mandatory. Our teacher was a great guy, retired LtCol who fought at Stalingrad as a conscript. There were multiple rounds of competitions with .22LR. The equivalent of localcity/county state and nationals. To make it to the nationals you had to be really good. You could go all the way to the Olympic team if you performed well in the state and national championship. Needless to say, very few made it that far.

    Within the first 2 weeks of crucible, they were evaluated on their performance with the standard service rifle. For those that could hit 3 separate silhouette targets on automatic fire with the AK74 and only 9 rounds, they were then handed an SVD, given a quick class on the PSO-1, and tested on how well they could group and then engage targets at distance with the rifle/scope, under the supervision by a Warrant Officer Sniper Instructor who had many years of almost nothing but sniper training and employment.
    Not sure what the crucible is, but the initial training of the draftees in Russia was called "КМБ - Курс Молодого Бойца", the closest English translation is "young fighter's course". Lots and lots of marching and parade drills are involved, the Russian military believes strongly in instilling discipline though marching. Making everyone dress the same and do the same thing psychologically forces people to conform. The taking the oath "to defend motherland" was at the end of the initial training. This was one of the rare times that parents were allowed to visit their sons. There was a number of standard exercises with AK74 during the initial training, the soldiers got scored on them. The automatic fire mattered because it separated guys who had good trigger control from the ones that didn't. Typically guys who had good trigger control were on the rifle team at their school.

    If they performed well enough, then they would go into sniper training during their individual skills conscript service, and incorporate with the rest of their cohorts during field and final combined live fire exercises.
    Sometime the warrant officer in charge of training would challenge one of the prospects to a shooting match. And those warrant officers knew how to shoot an SVD after doing it for many years. The guys who were sent to sniper training "Снайперская учебка" would receive a junior sergeant ("two snots") rank upon graduation. Not that enlisted ranks mattered much in the Russian military. Seniority (how long have you been in) mattered a lot.
     
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    acudaowner

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    well Id would be thinking about it differently I love the 308 but on a Russian gun I would want the Russian ammo and while I can hardly seem to find my 308 ammo for sale online at a price I want to pay I see plenty of the Russian ammo online for sale and its still around .39 cents per round I want an svd or the psl and ak and way too many guns to name them all here , but think Id get mine in the round they were made for that could be just my opinion especially now that the cost of ammo have gone up so drastically and is so much harder to find . If you do get one god bless you and I hope its a great shooter for you .
     
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    juha_teuvonnen

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    The top picture is the "civilian" Tigr variant, note the non-vented front handguards, different thumbhole stock with rubber recoil pad, front sight without hood and no muzzle device. The middle picture is the CAI imported Tigr (not KBI, I was wrong on that too) with military stock, front sight and handguards. The bottom pick is SVT, the scoped version of which started the Soviet Army on the path to a semi-auto sniper rifle.
    IMG_20201210_002735476.jpgIMG_20201210_000807866.jpgIMG_20201210_003011949.jpg