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Dramatic Loss of Accuracy past 100 yards. Anyone have any idea what is going on here

loudandproud

loudandproud

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Jan 19, 2014
    298
    57
    Carlisle, PA
    So,

    Just got done with my load development on my 7mm Weatherby. The gun is as follows;

    Savage 110 Action
    Lothar Walther Barrel, 7mm Weatherby, 1:9" Twist
    Badger Ordinance Muzzle Brake (F.T.E)
    Rifle Basix Trigger
    Bedded Boyds Varmint Thumbhole.

    All load development was done at 100 yards. Gun is shooting EXCELLENT! Three 5 shot groups in a row all under 3/8 MOA with the lowest being .167 MOA. I was fricken pumped!

    Stuck a target out at 300 yards... and all hell broke loose.
    5 shot group 2.45 MOA. Yes... Im serious.
    Shot another five shot group. 2.05 MOA.
    Went back to 100 yards (thinking my scope let loose).. .275 MOA.

    What in the world is going on here? Im at a loss.

    It is shooting a 154 SST with RL22 powder at 3120 FPS, 25 FPS extreme spread, 8fps S.D.

    Could this be cause by the crown/muzzle brake?
     
    Maybe too fast? Still stable at 100, but starting to wobble or yaw beyond that?

    Sounds more like a bullet/velocity issue than a mechanical issue with the gun. If the problem were with the crown or the rifle, then your short-range shots would not be consistent. But if the bullets are getting unstable the accuracy could drop way off at longer ranges. Any keyholing or evidence of yaw?

    Perhaps try running some loads at lower velocity and seeing if that helps at longer ranges.

    Just a thought and my two percent of a dollar. YMMV. As seen on TV, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    It doesn't take much to make your groups open up at 300. A tenth of a mil high on one shot and a tenth low on the next will give you a group over 2".
    Not saying it was you but I always look at what I was doing that may have caused it to open up first.
     
    loudandproud said:
    All load development was done at 100 yards. Gun is shooting EXCELLENT! Three 5 shot groups in a row all under 3/8 MOA with the lowest being .167 MOA. I was fricken pumped!

    Stuck a target out at 300 yards... and all hell broke loose.
    5 shot group 2.45 MOA. Yes... Im serious.
    Shot another five shot group. 2.05 MOA.
    Went back to 100 yards (thinking my scope let loose).. .275 MOA.

    What in the world is going on here? Im at a loss.
    Click to expand...

    So you're telling us that you can put 5 shots, center-to-center, in less than 1/4" at 100y, but at 300y your 5-shot groups are 6"+. Is that right?

    You need to let somebody else shoot the rifle. And maybe you have a really bad case of parallax error.
     
    NaHa said:
    So you're telling us that you can put 5 shots, center-to-center, in less than 1/4" at 100y, but at 300y your 5-shot groups are 6"+. Is that right?

    You need to let somebody else shoot the rifle. And maybe you have a really bad case of parallax error.
    Click to expand...

    I am plenty capable of shooting my own rifle, thank you.

    Parallax was checked multiple times at each distance. It was on.
     
    sirhrmechanic said:
    Maybe too fast? Still stable at 100, but starting to wobble or yaw beyond that?

    Sounds more like a bullet/velocity issue than a mechanical issue with the gun. If the problem were with the crown or the rifle, then your short-range shots would not be consistent. But if the bullets are getting unstable the accuracy could drop way off at longer ranges. Any keyholing or evidence of yaw?

    Perhaps try running some loads at lower velocity and seeing if that helps at longer ranges.

    Just a thought and my two percent of a dollar. YMMV. As seen on TV, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
    Click to expand...

    I didn't see any evidence of keyholing, but I think you are on the right track. I am very confident at this point that I wasn't pulling these shots. Especially considering how well my .308 was shooting at 300 yards today.

    Ill back it off about 100 fps and see if the stability changes. I have some 175gr SGK's down stairs I will also try to see if it is bullet stability related.
     
    Load test at 100 yards? Need to do it at 300 yards to get a result.
     
    20140329_182353.jpg

    Targets in question. Anyone know how not to have them so small? Its kinda hard to see.
     
    Had an issue a few years back with a 300wm T/C encore Pro hunter with 178 Amax's very similar. 1/2-3/4" groups at 100yds and around 300yds groups were terrible. Found out the bullet was seperating. It is in my history I posted it on here, too lazy to look it up right now.

    May or may not be your issue but it does happen.
     
    I would bet you are not in a node. I have seen several guys do load development at 100 and at distance they really open up.

    I recommend a ladder test (300 or further) for load development. I always have good luck with that. A good load might only give you 3/4 MOA at 100, but it will shine at distance.
     
    I followed the OCW and it shot awesome at 100 and just a good at any distance to 1000 yards. It's a 300 WM and I have been very happy with it. You sure your loading practices are repeatable, and you didn't pick the best group but the Same POI? Sounds like a bad load, but my experience was opposite of that so I'm not entirely sure why that would happen, have you talked to Dan?
     
    I can't see how the bullet would come together at 100 but not further out. I'm not sure the construction of the SST, but something must be happening in flight. I'd do the test again, I've left to ladder but ended up coming back to OCW everytime. Hope things work out for you!!
     
    Nope I'm just really glad you didn't have to try and come up with your on screen name I'm sure it was much easier to just look around and pick one
     
    Try doing your load development at 300yds. That's what I do for my long range shooting. I have done my preliminary testing at 100yds but then go to 300yds. I try to find a load that will print around 1.5" @ 300yds. If I get that it will shoot great on out. Not sure if you shot more than one time@ 300 but I have had bad days at the range when I couldn't seem to buy a good group. So don't get discouraged give it a try again. I live in South Dakota and have wind to contend with almost on a daily basis and its hardly ever a steady wind so if you shoot in the wind just figure you might have some horizontal stringing. I always am more concerned with the vertical. If that stays around the 1 to 1.5"s at 300yds then you probably have a pretty good load.
     
    raptor99 said:
    Try doing your load development at 300yds. That's what I do for my long range shooting. I have done my preliminary testing at 100yds but then go to 300yds. I try to find a load that will print around 1.5" @ 300yds. If I get that it will shoot great on out. Not sure if you shot more than one time@ 300 but I have had bad days at the range when I couldn't seem to buy a good group. So don't get discouraged give it a try again. I live in South Dakota and have wind to contend with almost on a daily basis and its hardly ever a steady wind so if you shoot in the wind just figure you might have some horizontal stringing. I always am more concerned with the vertical. If that stays around the 1 to 1.5"s at 300yds then you probably have a pretty good load.
    Click to expand...

    For sure. Ill give her another go and try a couple different tests as soon as the weather calms done a bit... windy as all hell today.
     
    Did you shoot any at 100 after the 300-yard groups to see if short-range accuracy was still there?

    Just wondering if something about the barrel went south, such as heat or copper fouling...
     
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
     
    Yes I did as I mentioned in the original post.

    I also shot my .308 at the same target five minutes later at 300 yards and shot a .750 MOA group (typical for that rifle) so I feel that the conditions were not the issue.

    Im leaning towards bad load or muzzle brake.
     
    Last edited:
    Loud&Proud said:
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
    Click to expand...

    Before you posted on my thread I didnt know you existed. When you register it tells you if anyone already has that handle...it didnt, so I didnt search through the member list to see if anyone had a name that is close.

    Get over it.
     
    Last edited:
    Loud&Proud said:
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
    Click to expand...

    With 33 posts since 2012 (nearly 10% of which are already on this thread alone) you think anyone here knows you exist? You've obviously forgotten the sign-up procedure after all this time, since it is as the op says. In order to be notified that a user name is already taken, you have to spell it the same way. The system doesn't know that "Loud&Proud" and "loudandproud" are the same, maybe because they aren't. I believe the op, and it's a really simple thing to figure out how it happened. Your comment to loudandproud was uncalled for and rude. You are the one out of line here. It's not as though you're famous here and everyone knows you even exist with your average of two whopping posts per month. AFAIC, you owe loudandproud an apology.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: johnnycat
    LoudUndProud said:
    Guten Tag Mein Leibchens!!!

    Zees is a most gut Thread!

    Auf Wiedersehen,

    LoudUndProud
    Click to expand...

    Welcome to the forum LoudUndProud. I hope you get to meet LautUndStolz and Laut&Stolz on the forum too.
    roflmao!!!
     
    Last edited:
    I agree with try new bullet/load, however; you could be pushing this load to hard, try slowing it down, way down, and working it back up, if you have the time, powder and bullets. Hope this helps, good luck!
     
    Loud&Proud said:
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
    Click to expand...
    I don't always accuse other members of homosexuality while I try to fight them over my screen name, but when I do... I do it, "Loud&Proud"
     
    Yeah the OP could have easily typed "loudandproud" the first time and it would have gone through just fine. Also, going from .30 MOA to 3 MOA is not shooter error. No one sucks are reading wind and mirage that bad.
     
    lennyo3034 said:
    Yeah the OP could have easily typed "loudandproud" the first time and it would have gone through just fine. Also, going from .30 MOA to 3 MOA is not shooter error. No one sucks are reading wind and mirage that bad.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah im pretty confident in my ability at that range. My .308 shot very well out to 500 yards that day and I made 3/4 good hits on the 1000m gong with it (15" diameter...first one went 4" over)

    This 7mm wby is a pussy cat recoil wise. Its a 17lb rifle with a brake. If it werent for these issues it would be a pleasure to shoot.
     
    Loud&Proud said:
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
    Click to expand...

    The vagisil is on isle 4 bro.
     
    Loud&Proud said:
    Really so have I but if I had gone on a site and some one else had it I would have been original and got another one but from what I can see you can't run your gun so you run your cum dumpster instead and I sure as hell ain't your bud.
    Click to expand...

    I know when I joined this forum, I personally went through the 101,623 members name and made sure mine was original. I'd be mad too if someone copied my "EXTREMELY" original name of Loud And Proud ......end of sarcasm! In other words, shut up and go away. You have 33 posts and 3 of them are on this thread, you are insignificant to this website.
     
    I'm wondering about the wind. Did it start gusting between your 100 and 300 yard shooting? Were the groups stringing horizontally/vertically, or did they open up proportionately? Also, did you dial on your elevation, or were you using a hold?

    HRF
     
    Last edited:
    hrfunk said:
    I'm wondering about the wind. Did it start gusting between your 100 and 300 yard shooting? Were the groups stringing horizontally/vertically, or did they open up proportionately?

    HRF
    Click to expand...

    Funk, two thoughts. Your question about the way the group opened up (string or 'all over') is an excellent one.

    On the wind... at 300 yards you would almost have to be shooting through a tornado to open up groups to 6 - 7 inches... The bullet velocity is just too high and the distance is too short... even a full value gust isn't going to move the bullet that far, IMHO. My wind doping chart is in my databook... not nearby, but if someone looks up the velocity and range, I think they will come up with a wind speed number outside the realm of possibility in any normal circumstance.

    That said, it's an excellent thought and the stringing question is good, too.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    Yeah, I see your point. I quick check on Ballistic AE shows it would take about a 30 MPH full-value wind to get that much deviation. I should have checked that first.

    HRF
     
    I had a HUGE issue with my 10BA LE...It didn't make sense to me really until I got into ELR.

    Savage has a history of "straightening" barrels to true...In fact, from what I've seen/heard they have a guy there that exists solely to "straighten" barrels...

    Anyway, my stock savage barrel had been "straightened".

    I heard a "pinging" but, it was still a laser at 100 so, I didn't do anything until I went to a 400 yd range...Come to find out, my stock barrel was at a 2-3* cant to the left...But, the receiver had been threaded at an angle as well...So, nothing on the rifle was "true". So, every shot I took to 100 was dead on but, beyond that it was opening up, bigtime.

    Bought a new McGowan, had the receiver trued -- It apparently now shoots lasers. (Doggy had to hit the ER...It was the dog or the rifle...)

    -- I've done a lot of reading on crowns and the general public is really 50/50 on it...I've seen evidence of crowns with huge chunks in them still shooting sub 1moa...+ there are a few articles on it...I wouldn't be so quick to blame the crown...I'd first check the trueness of your receiver.
     
    The barrel is aftermarket, see OP.

    The shots are equally dispersed (see above attached pictures).

    Wind was 2-5 mph head wind. I had wind flags on the range.
     
    My guess is your scope is not level. You probably won't notice it at 100y but you will definitely see a difference at 250y+. Take the scope off and make sure it is leveled out. Good luck.
     
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