Duty to Protect?

[Quarter Horse]

In Dec.2012, three days before Sandyhook, there was a shooting incident at Clackamas Town Center, a mall in Clackamas Or. The shooter killed two shoppers, wounded a third and then killed himself. There is an indoor range nearby that has classes in defensive shooting and I wondered if anyone in the vicinity of the shooter was armed. A couple of days later a story was published stating that such had been the case. An individual had drawn his gun, the permit holder and shooter had locked eyes, the shooter ran down a hall and moments later shot himself. During the confrontation the shooter was trying to clear a FTF.

Most know that recent court cases have found that LE have no "duty to protect" even if they are witnessing someone being assaulted with a weapon. Rules or protocols within an agency may differ but from the courts viewpoint there is no "duty to protect." Of course, the mall is a gun free zone. My question is, in a similar circumstance, knowing you have a clear shot that is well within your abilities, do you fire or withdraw.

 

[236snipe29er]

A clear shot within my capability...Fire no question...ADTRT!

 

[355sigfan]

The no duty to protect came from a court judgment trying to protect LEO's from countless law suits that would happen because we can not be every where all the time. I can tell you anyone working where I do who just stood by would be looking for a new job and he would not get hired again.

In Dec.2012, three days before Sandyhook, there was a shooting incident at Clackamas Town Center, a mall in Clackamas Or. The shooter killed two shoppers, wounded a third and then killed himself. There is an indoor range nearby that has classes in defensive shooting and I wondered if anyone in the vicinity of the shooter was armed. A couple of days later a story was published stating that such had been the case. An individual had drawn his gun, the permit holder and shooter had locked eyes, the shooter ran down a hall and moments later shot himself. During the confrontation the shooter was trying to clear a FTF.

Most know that recent court cases have found that LE have no "duty to protect" even if they are witnessing someone being assaulted with a weapon. Rules or protocols within an agency may differ but from the courts viewpoint there is no "duty to protect." Of course, the mall is a gun free zone. My question is, in a similar circumstance, knowing you have a clear shot that is well within your abilities, do you fire or withdraw.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Oregon has no duty to protect.

IIRC the Good Samaritan that was armed at the Clackamas Mall was a single male who was by himself that day at the mall. He chose not to engage due to concerns related to background. If he felt as though he could not get a clear shot then I think he did the prudent thing. Additionally he had no responsibility to, and nor did he, pursue the subject in order to get a good shot.

I think many people carry a gun. I think a few practice marksmanship with a carry gun. I think very few grind it out and train with a carry gun. Among other things, I think a great many people have this Walter Mitty thing about what they'd do or not do in such a situation. I think those people should research the 2005 Tacoma Mall shooting, the actions of the Good Sam there, and the aftermath. Hint - it may not go as smoothly as you planned. Pro tip - if you want to waste time standing on ceremony, ya best find some hard cover as a vantage point.

 

[Petrichor Actual]

I'm familiar with an active shooter incident a few years back in the midwest where more than 1 officer froze. Based on multiple accounts, one was working in an off duty capacity inside the building and simply hid, and remained hidden even after being contacted on the scene by additional responding officers. During this same incident, another officer refused to exit their vehicle and enter the building. Both officers are still employed and I am unaware of any discipline. Political correctness and public relations trump public safety.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

It is not yours or my duty to protect anybody in an active shooter, damsel in distress, etc scenario. The choice is yours to make at the time and the aftermath is yours to deal with.

 

[diverdon]

the aftermath is yours to deal with.

Yeah, you got to be sure you got it right, and you have to be sure that you can explain what you did to a jury of your peers so that they will be able to understand that you got it right.

It is easy to be sure when you are reading about a incident in the paper, they happen fast in real life, it is hard to be sure. It is hard to be accurate. If it was easy do you think police would wound so many bystanders in their confrontations?

Yeah, their might come a day when you or I have to act. Expect that to be a very hard day. Expect hard weeks, months and years to follow. Expect to be condemned by the media, held in contempt by your peers, and bankrupted by your lawyers.

 

[Pusher591]

If my family is with me, my ONLY duty at that time is to protect them and get them to safety. By myself I will absolutely engage if the opportunity presents itself. By that I mean that I will engage when I have the upper hand or jump on the suspect and I can do it without putting the public in more danger then what the "suspect" may be doing. Dead Heros never helped anyone. Tactics, training, and familiarization with your firearm are paramount to success and victory.

 

[Darkside-Six]

As a civilian I do not feel it is my duty to protect, but I also feel I have a morale responsibility to stop innocent people from getting killed if I have the ability to do so.

If i'm in a convenient store and an armed man comes in to rob the place i'm not going to draw my weapon and create a bigger problem out of a smaller one. If all he want's is the money and he's not shooting at anyone then i'll let things be. If i'm inside a crowded mall and some crazy fucker comes in and just starts shooting people at random then I would most definitely draw my weapon and fire once I had a clear shot. I'm not going to stand around and watch people killed around me and not do nothing. it's not in my blood.

 

[Quarter Horse]

The responses to this question are interesting in that they go from absolutes to serious consideration. 355, my use of the phrase "duty to protect" was in no way a shot at LEOs. Petrichor's post shows that even individuals with training and standing can react in a manner inconsistent with their position. I would suggest that everyone heed Mike_Honcho's advice regarding the Tacoma shooting and read this When Being a Good Guy Isn't Enough. One's duty to their family extends over a lifetime.

 

[KYpatriot]

Good read QH. If you are going to do it, then DO IT. If you are not, then make yourself small. Which one is certainly circumstantial, but the key is to choose a path and go all in. You can often win either way, but in life or death situations the tentative and the indecisive lose.

 

[355sigfan]

The responses to this question are interesting in that they go from absolutes to serious consideration. 355, my use of the phrase "duty to protect" was in no way a shot at LEOs. Petrichor's post shows that even individuals with training and standing can react in a manner inconsistent with their position. I would suggest that everyone heed Mike_Honcho's advice regarding the Tacoma shooting and read this When Being a Good Guy Isn't Enough. One's duty to their family extends over a lifetime.

Understand just wanted to clarify that. Rather someone acts as a citizen or not is up to them. I will act if I feel someone is in danger even when I am off duty and I have before. You do take a risk to yourself but for me its worth being able to sleep at night. I understand someone not wanting to get involved as well. Again its a personal choice.
Pat

 

[Shoottothrill]

I know a lot of us would like to think that in a situation like that we would be cool calm and collected and do the right thing and stop the bad guy with lethal force if necessary. I would like to think that I would act and protect the innocent people around me. I just think that until an individual is in that situation you never really know for sure how you will react. I know a lot of guys on here have combat or Leo training and have been in life and death situations, so they because of past experience know how they will react. For those like myself who have never been faced with a deadly situation its hard to say for sure what you will do. I know that anytime Iv'e ever been cornered and had to fight Ive fought, but this was without weapons and the only person in harms way was myself. I'm sure a lot of average citizens freeze up at times like this and I'm sure a fair amount of Leo's have as well. I guess it goes back to the fight or flight reflex and until it happens its easy to talk about how you would pull out your CCW and drop the bad guy and save everyone, but I'm sure its not always the case.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I know a lot of us would like to think that in a situation like that we would be cool calm and collected and do the right thing and stop the bad guy with lethal force if necessary. I would like to think that I would act and protect the innocent people around me. I just think that until an individual is in that situation you never really know for sure how you will react. I know a lot of guys on here have combat or Leo training and have been in life and death situations, so they because of past experience know how they will react. For those like myself who have never been faced with a deadly situation its hard to say for sure what you will do. I know that anytime Iv'e ever been cornered and had to fight Ive fought, but this was without weapons and the only person in harms way was myself. I'm sure a lot of average citizens freeze up at times like this and I'm sure a fair amount of Leo's have as well. I guess it goes back to the fight or flight reflex and until it happens its easy to talk about how you would pull out your CCW and drop the bad guy and save everyone, but I'm sure its not always the case.

Good point, I think I could act if necessary in such a situation, I done some real fool-hearty impulsive shit in my day. I remember one time I was all alone after school, was pissed off at these boys who had purposely broke my phone when I forgot it and left it. I saw em, went straight up and confronted the one I thought most responsible for the deed. He looks at me and pulls his phone out his pocket, and tells me I can break his in return. Im thinking "motherf*cker I aint bluffing!" so I snatch his shit from em and snap it in 2 then throw it in his face. While hes looking at me like that was plumb unexpected, I shot him a smile and tackled the kid next to him. Put a little beating on him for a bit before they gathered their wits and proceeded to hand me the second worst beating of my entire life.

'Nother time, Panama City, Fla. spring break 2011. My brother started a fight with a guy over some chick. Im about 50 feet away. I look away for a half second and next thing I know 11 guys had done jumped on him. My mind just went blank I ran straight in, grabbed a fold-up chair and slammed the first guy I came across throwing punches with it. Didnt get to serve up much more misery than that before half of em jumped on me, and proceeded to hold me down while I was getting stomped in the face. That was the absolute worst beating of my life. Thought me and my brother both were dead for sure. Thats my brother though, he may be a jackass but hes my jackass. If hes gone get killed, then Im gone die fighting next to em simple as that.

Theres a few other instances, but those 2 were some of the more extreme cases. So needless to say, whatever decision I make likely aint the smartest, but I have no doubt in my ability to do some real risky shit in a split second that would likely serve to earn me just as many holes as the Samaritans mentioned above. I know running straight into a certain ass-whipping aint nearly as reckless as running straight toward a certain gunfight, but those two are the closest Ive come to voluntarily heading into certain grievous injury and possible death. Never have froze up with indecision, but I have taken my share of licks.

 

[Doc68]

Good point, I think I could act if necessary in such a situation, I done some real fool-hearty impulsive shit in my day. I remember one time I was all alone after school, was pissed off at these boys who had purposely broke my phone when I forgot it and left it. I saw em, went straight up and confronted the one I thought most responsible for the deed. He looks at me and pulls his phone out his pocket, and tells me I can break his in return. Im thinking "motherf*cker I aint bluffing!" so I snatch his shit from em and snap it in 2 then throw it in his face. While hes looking at me like that was plumb unexpected, I shot him a smile and tackled the kid next to him. Put a little beating on him for a bit before they gathered their wits and proceeded to hand me the second worst beating of my entire life.

'Nother time, Panama City, Fla. spring break 2011. My brother started a fight with a guy over some chick. Im about 50 feet away. I look away for a half second and next thing I know 11 guys had done jumped on him. My mind just went blank I ran straight in, grabbed a fold-up chair and slammed the first guy I came across throwing punches with it. Didnt get to serve up much more misery than that before half of em jumped on me, and proceeded to hold me down while I was getting stomped in the face. That was the absolute worst beating of my life. Thought me and my brother both were dead for sure. Thats my brother though, he may be a jackass but hes my jackass. If hes gone get killed, then Im gone die fighting next to em simple as that.

Theres a few other instances, but those 2 were some of the more extreme cases. So needless to say, whatever decision I make likely aint the smartest, but I have no doubt in my ability to do some real risky shit in a split second that would likely serve to earn me just as many holes as the Samaritans mentioned above. I know running straight into a certain ass-whipping aint nearly as reckless as running straight toward a certain gunfight, but those two are the closest Ive come to voluntarily heading into certain grievous injury and possible death. Never have froze up with indecision, but I have taken my share of licks.

Now they just start shooting down here. We had a few this year during spring break. Right now it's "thunder beach" time. Damn I can't wait till Monday and they are all gone!

 

[MKSMN]

It is hard to predict your reactions. I just hoped I wouldn't freeze up.

When my first time came, it was a surprise with an armed suspect popping out of a building. I didn't freeze, I saw the gun first and issued commands and thus alerted the other three cops who were there, while I drew as fast as I could. At the time I was most afraid of being shot with my gun still holstered.

I know now I waited a split second too long to draw the trigger. Suspect took cover and we were exposed. I'm lucky to still be here. We all left alive, though.

It seemed so slow at the time, but it really happened in a matter of seconds. I remember being so frustrated that my hand wouldn't move faster during the draw. The reality is that I probably drew faster than I ever have before.

It's a bizarre experience, and everyone reacts differently. Some don't have the natural ability to move toward a threat. Personally, I don't want them working with me. I need to know I can trust my guys to back me up.

 

[BadDogPSD]

If it's not your fight, don't make it your fight.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

With our society and legal 'justice' system the way it is, it's a difficult decision.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

This subject comes up every now and then on different forums through the years. Bottom line is you just got a fancy card saying you are now allowed to enjoy your 2nd Amendment rights.

Just because you have that fancy card does not mean you are a pseudo cop or pseudo special forces commando recon pj guy put on earth to defend the flock.

You are a dude or chick with a handgun that you are allowed to carry to defend yourself or your family from serious bodily harm and death.

If you intervene in a shooting and come out on top you may be hailed a hero, but you'll probably get gangbanged in court. If you get killed then people will make fun of you and blame you for worsening the situation. Then there is always the possibility that another CCW holder or Cop may mistake YOU for the "bad guy" and poke some holes in you with high velocity projectiles.

If anybody here is ready to hit the streets with their cape on to defend the world, then I highly recommend you spend a good bit of fiat currency on good training courses that make you do the same shit over and over again so you learn good tactics and build muscle memory.

 

[EddieNFL]

If it's not your fight, don't make it your fight.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

With our society and legal 'justice' system the way it is, it's a difficult decision.

While that doesn't answer the question, it pretty much sums up the situation.

Right now it's "thunder beach" time.

Panama City?

 

[Quarter Horse]

As has often been noted, shooting is a perishable skill. What you were capable of two months ago may not reflect your capabilities tomorrow unless you have been constantly training. These active shooter incidents present a unique situation in that a civilian will be at a huge tactical deficit. Your adversary will almost certainly have an AK or AR pattern rifle, a number of magazines and very possibly body armor. You would need either crazy skills or crazy luck to come out on top.

As for the Peace Officers, I believe best practices now dictate that the first officers on scene go to the gunfire whether assisted or not. If this is protocol in your department, I hope all of you have a carbine and up armor in the trunk.

 

[MKSMN]

As has often been noted, shooting is a perishable skill. What you were capable of two months ago may not reflect your capabilities tomorrow unless you have been constantly training. These active shooter incidents present a unique situation in that a civilian will be at a huge tactical deficit. Your adversary will almost certainly have an AK or AR pattern rifle, a number of magazines and very possibly body armor. You would need either crazy skills or crazy luck to come out on top.

As for the Peace Officers, I believe best practices now dictate that the first officers on scene go to the gunfire whether assisted or not. If this is protocol in your department, I hope all of you have a carbine and up armor in the trunk.

Yes, ours now does. Carbines, yes, up-armor, PASGT helmet? Not unless you pay for it yourself.

 

[xdpatriot]

My duty lies to myself and family. There are no officers that owe protection to me and my family.

 

[MCSO1357]

The time for questions, whether moral or legal, is now - not when shots are being fired. Clear that shit up in your head ahead of time, so that when the time comes, you are ready to engage or fall back (whatever the situation dictates). Also, whether you are LEO or just a citizen exercising 2nd Amendment rights to carry, read Col. Grossman's books (On Killing and On Combat). They will help one confront the mental and moral difficulties that arise in a deadly force scenario.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As has often been noted, shooting is a perishable skill. What you were capable of two months ago may not reflect your capabilities tomorrow unless you have been constantly training. These active shooter incidents present a unique situation in that a civilian will be at a huge tactical deficit. Your adversary will almost certainly have an AK or AR pattern rifle, a number of magazines and very possibly body armor. You would need either crazy skills or crazy luck to come out on top.

As for the Peace Officers, I believe best practices now dictate that the first officers on scene go to the gunfire whether assisted or not. If this is protocol in your department, I hope all of you have a carbine and up armor in the trunk.

Most of these shooters are not expecting any effective resistance, they want to shoot as many sheeple as they can and very rarely have the guts to go up against armed people. Many of the younger ones may have played tons of video games with no real understanding of pain.

In my opinion they will have to change their plan in a huge big hurry if someone starts shooting back at them. In addition if you can land solid hits on them with a weapon that packs a bit of a punch, it will disorientate them. You may or may not survive, but there is a very good chance that it will buy time for people to get out of the way and help to get closer.

This is also possibly a good reason not to pack tiny little make them mad guns & carry a good rifle or shotgun in the car.